Hi everyone--new to this forum! My ADD husband and I have been together 5 years, married for 3, and a few months ago after a fight I realized from reading something online that my husband likely had ADD. Fast forward a few weeks to an evaluation and he scored 97% on the inattentiveness scale. He's trying meds and therapy, and yet it feels like things have gotten so much worse for us.
I have PTSD from childhood and chronic illness so I haven't been able to work in 2 years, right as he lost his job as an engineer for 15 months, and then hid credit card debt from me (he seems to think being a man means doing finances even though he's awful at planning). I felt like I had to be supportive during the unemployment, but as he got a new job I found out about the lies and the ADD and I'm so angry and realizing how much of our relationship problems come from his coping mechanisms, likely to deal with the ADD--especially the lying.
He appears meek to the outside world and I'm always the bad guy, but he tries to control everything about my life (my friends, career changes I'm trying to make so I can work again, etc) so that he feels like he's in control of something. He considers chores "a sacrifice" and assumes I'm not as capable as he is because I'm a woman (I have a PhD and am so sick of this attitude!). He spent his whole unemployment interrupting me every 15 minutes because he doesn't seem to be able to manage his time, a behavior he once referred to as codependent himself! (But then doesn't see why I'm angry after being trapped in a house for 15 months with him)
I'm just so angry. Every day is a fight about a stupid lie. I can't trust him at all, because some are stupid and little and some are huge like debt, and it's hard to know which. He's starting to use his ADD as an excuse for all of these coping mechanisms like lying or gaslighting me--it at best is an explanation, but you don't "get" to lie. We've made so many schedules and reminders, I've been reading ADHD books to try to understand and help, but I feel like there's so much built up anger and resentment on my part that there's really nothing left. That devastates him as he doesn't want to divorce, but I don't want the rest of my life to look like this.
Help!
--Lena
No, you don't "get" to lie.
Submitted by vabeachgal on
No, you don't "get" to lie. I can tell you in all honesty, that living with years of lying (big things and little things) adversely affects the person being lied to. It undermines your sense of self and reality. It hurts your self esteem because you begin to think of yourself as someone deserving of lies. It is truly awful.
As in your case, my H either denied that he had a problem with lying or pulled out ADHD as an excuse. What he NEVER did was take medication and go to therapy to figure out the root of the lying. At the end, I decided that if he couldn't figure out why he lied, as a precursor to figuring out how to stop lying, that he would continue to lie to me because he can't help it.
I feel for you. I chose not to live that way anymore. I choose to live with truth and not based on someone else's reality - what he decides to tell me or hide from me. Yes, hiding debt was a BIG part of all of this. Of course you're going to wonder "what else." There's a good chance there's something else.
Lying is a difficult thing to overcome. If you accept it, it hurts you. If you point it out, the liar may become defensive or more subversive or choose to not engage at all.
I placed boundaries in my life and separated emotionally. It helped me tremendously. Unfortunately, I am staring at divorce papers on my desk, which require notarization. I'm sure I"ll have to nag for quite a while to make sure he does get the documents notarized. Of course, I have to be the one to take care of all of this. Sigh.
My husband also considered housework and childcare to be something he would do "if he felt like it" or "if he had time", not as an ongoing contribution to the family or marriage. LOL. She who cleans the bathrooms loses. I'm only being half facetious when I say this. It's felt like a power play to me.
In my humble opinion, lying is not self correcting; it requires therapy.
How did I get here? ...vbeachgal
Submitted by jennalemone on
Sometimes I come to this site and review what I and others wrote in the past. Many times I ponder..."How did I get to this place I am now...feeling like a failure from where I was when I was much younger from a place of confidence and strength?" I know a person does not form from just one event, but a constant environment does have an effect on a person. I am on a quest to be more self aware and find my young confidence back. To see my own reality and stand up for myself more often....not believing that I must be the keeper of my H's strength and ego. My H has proven to me that he wants to be independent of marriage and of me. I am giving him his independence and I am letting go of my dream and hope for happy partnership. It is not comfortable to me but I must stop expecting something that is never going to happen with him. This entry by vbeachgal helps me face this reality for me and lets me work on this.
No, you don't "get" to lie. I can tell you in all honesty, that living with years of lying (big things and little things) adversely affects the person being lied to. It undermines your sense of self and reality. It hurts your self esteem because you begin to think of yourself as someone deserving of lies.
We all are deserving of our own truths and dignity and in some situations, the only dignity we have is the dignity we give to ourselves.
It's hard to face.
Submitted by vabeachgal on
It's hard to face.
I didn't get to this place based on one event, but on a series of events, usually repetitive. I am also working to regain my old self. What got me here? A lot of things. My husband is largely dishonorable. I was prepared and willing to believe the best and hope for the best. I failed to confront all of the lies because I wasn't sure I had enough proof and chose, correctly or incorrectly, that the argument would dissolve into deflection and nothing positive would come of it. I've beat myself up over this. My husband lies and deflects. What's the right approach? I don't think there was one in this case. Either approach, confronting or ignoring, would yield unpleasant results. I guess I could have fought for myself harder but in the end, I think he would have upped his gaslighting to compensate. My H felt entitled to his secrets and lies and chose to believe that if he didn't intend to hurt me no hurt would result.
Yes, we are deserving of truth and dignity. It's a basic right.
In the end, LOL, I still found another big lie and betrayal right to the bitter end. I wish I could say that it hasn't affected me, but it has. Still.
Ironically, I did not confront him on all of his lies so as to not be a nag and destroy his ego and self esteem and he still created an inappropriate relationship with someone else for the same. I think in some of these situations you truly cannot win. The only win is to reclaim yourself.
You know, an actual diagnosis
Submitted by dvance on
You know, an actual diagnosis can go either way. While it might be nice to KNOW what is going on, it can become an excuse. My husband lies as easily as he breathes. My motto in our house is trust but verify. They just don't understand that lying about all the teeny stuff just chips away at the confidence you have in them until there is nothing left and you don't believe a word they say. Example: my DH has like 4 credit cards that he "needed" for his last job (all in his name). Well, he got fired on December 29 and I have no idea how he is continuing to pay them off. I have long suspected he has an account with some money in it that I am not privy to, but of course I have no way to confirm that. I don't think he has like thousands of dollars, but I bet there are several hundred. He has always been extremely secretive and very "hoardy" about his money. If I ask him for a few bucks to run across the street for some ingredient for dinner that I forgot, he will say he has no cash, but if I look in his wallet later, there may very well be $50 but he did not offer it. I have come to accept this and I don't snoop any more, not because I don't care but because I will only get upset at what I will find (in the past it's been money, evidence of other women and receipts from restaurants where he clearly was not eating alone AND was ordering meat when I thought we were vegetarian--clearly he is not when he is not home).
I suspect that all of us who live with an ADHD person will have to or have already made our peace with the fact that lying is just part of who they are. They lie to cover up the poor results of impulsive decision making, they lie to cover up the poor consequences of not following through on something that needed to be followed through on, they lie to compensate for holes in their knowledge from either tuning out or not retaining stuff, they lie to end conversations that make them take responsibility for their bad decisions/behavior. It's just a fact of life with an ADHD person. I often wonder what I would be like if I did not automatically assume that pretty much every adult is lying about something. It's not true, I just operate that way because of 23 years of it.
Feeling pressure to lie....
Submitted by c ur self on
I think you are right about many of the things you have listed that can cause lying...(Lie to cover up poor behaviors, & decisions, mis-hearing due to distraction. Fear of the attack they will be under if they are truthful to their spouse, etc..)
But I also believe there are many people who have such strong convictions against telling a lie, that they will tell the truth under any circumstance....And really don't care what you think about the truth of the matter...But, usually those kind of people aren't looking to hide anything anyway:).
Lying is also conditional....Short term memory....I'm always a liar, when my wife and I talk about what was said and done in the past....I've told her that we aren't going to discuss the past anymore (I'm not)...So the minute I catch a two way dialog w/ her trending toward what was said or done at some date in the past....I say no no, give me a kiss, it doesn't matter anyway;)
C
"The past is in the past."
Submitted by bowlofpetunias on
That was one of the most hurtful and scarring things my father always told me when I was a kid. Whenever I brought up something about how unfairly my parents treated me with regard to my sister (she gets new clothes every week, I get beat up for the cheap clothes I am wearing for example--when I was in first or second grade, I was actually wearing HER hand-me-downs!) the same refrain came up. The past is in the past. Nope, he would not even acknowledge my pain, nevertheless take responsibility or talk about making things better in the future. Nope. And it may have been "in the past" in terms of not happening this exact second, but it was an ongoing pattern that often continued to happen after the past is in the past dismissal.
The past may not matter to someone who has ADHD, in the sense that it doesn't bother them, so who cares about your feelings? If they're not my feelings, they don't really exist. (My father's response to my complaints about mosquito bites: "Well, they don't bother me.")
Talking about the past is an incredibly important step towards moving on. Acknowledging that someone's hurt feelings are real is incredibly important. Both my parents are dead, I avoid my sister as much as I can, but I still feel a lot of pain and resentment--not only for the unfair treatment itself, but also for how it was never acknowledged and apologized for.
The other side of this was that my father was perfectly willing to complain about his version of the past. Why did I never show any interest in woodworking? Uh, I actually did. I begged and begged for you to teach me about that, and you always refused. The rejection was painful. So I finally gave up. This never prevented him from complaining again about why I did not show interest in woodworking.
The past can be in the past--after we DEAL WITH IT.
Yes that's the key....Deal with it...
Submitted by c ur self on
I hear you...My Father abandoned my Mother w/ three boys when I was about 5 or 6...Moved out of state and and pursued a selfish life style...Finally settling in a border state when I was about 13...My younger brother and I spent two or three summers with him until I got old enough to work and drive...He has kept in touch every couple of months are so....And he made some effort to know his grandchildren
But now that he has found his self alone the last year or so, he calls all the time and wants to move back here...He has dementia and is 86....My brother and I are helping him, but, it's only because as you say, we had to deal with it....I will never recapture what I missed from not having a relationship w/ a Father in my formal years of life.... but, I refuse to allow my life to be poisoned because of unforgiveness....
If a person can't forgive, they can't be forgiven....
So many people preserve through bad situations...Rape's, wars, abuse of all kinds....To go on and lead constructive and peaceful lives....Because they find (The Way) out how to deal (move past it) w/ their past....
The reason I don't want to discuss the past w/ my wife, is because if you live in a mind that can't recall the past, but, you also don't know that...LOL, and you fight at the drop of a hat...Then talks about past events or conversations never end well....
C
"I refuse to allow my life to be poisoned"....WOW! and YES!
Submitted by jennalemone on
This is amazing. C, you have become a beacon in rough seas. We are blessed to have you here to interject with faith and strength. Thanks for sharing what must have been tough years. Those years must have forced you and your siblings early in life to actively search and find ways in the world with fortitude and acceptance and understanding the difficulties that many, most, people endure. You seem to have found positive paths to sustain yourself. And, wow, what a testament you are! I always count on you to "bring it home" and zero in on the truth and acceptance of a matter in a kind way.
My Mom Jenna.....
Submitted by c ur self on
My Mom was a breakfast and lunch waitress...She would also go back at night and work parties to make enough to feed and care and clothe 3 boys...My brother's and I learned to clean cook and do house work at a young age....My Mom insisted we do these things, she also insisted we go to school, and church, even though she worked most Sundays...My Mon was 1/2 saint and 1/2 warrior....She had a love for us that couldn't be shaken....But it was tough one, it never enabled or made excuse for us in those early years...She would also tear that butt up for disrespect or Misbehavior....We also learned a lot of things we shouldn't at an early age, But thankfully I met a girl at age 16 that I followed to church....Where I met Jesus....And although I've failed miserable many time, I've never, and will never be the same....That 16 year old became my wife at age 20 and was another saint in my life until Jesus took her home at age 49....
I've lived a blessed life...I am so thankful for the people God has put in my life....He gave me my present wife to expose the things he wanted to take out of me, that I didn't know was there or had to much pride to puke up.....That's the kind of Love this world can never know, but, by Faith through Grace we can experience...
Blessings
C
Wow! bowlofpetunias!
Submitted by Hopeful Heart on
Your parents sound just like mine, narcissistic @$$h*!e$! Refusing to acknowledge another persons feelings is a form of abuse, in and of itself. I agree with you 100% that it’s impossible to heal and maintain a relationship without it. After 45 years of gaslighting and many other forms of emotional abuse, I finally had to cut off all contact with my parents. I sincerely hope that you’re able to find healing.
My husband’s ADHD causes him to treat me in a similar manner to my parents. Basically, he Is emotionally abusive and then acts as if I’m defective because I don’t like being abused. The main difference between my husband and my parents is that my husband acknowledges his behavior and apologizes. He’s also trying to change. Those are three things that my parents would never, ever, under any circumstances do.
I don't like when people say
Submitted by adhd32 on
I don't like when people say "oh, I'm sure your parents did the best they could" if you mention something emotionally abusive from childhood. I suppose they don't know what else to say.
Mom used to get angry whenever any of us kids (except her favorite) was upset about something she felt was a non-issue, as though her feelings, or no feelings, were the only acceptable reaction to a situation. Her standard line when someone accused her of something she was clearly guilty of was: I'm sorry you feel that way. Not: I'm sorry I hurt you. She also put her favorite child on a pedestal to the point where someone, who did not know the family, once remarked " I didn't know you had other children" when she met my sister and me. Of course mom denied a favorite but when I was in my 40s a relative's remark finally confirmed what I always knew was true. Some parents do their best for only one child. Some parents don't care at all.
Cognitive dissonance
Submitted by bowlofpetunias on
The situation was compounded by the fact that my sister did everything they said was wrong and got rewarded, while I tried to do everything they said was right and got neglected. That drove me crazy. On top of that, trying to be the perfect child for them caused a lot of grief with other kids. My father didn't like sports? I had to hate sports too (and get beat up for it). My parents were upset about my sister's sexual activities? I couldn't date (so I was called gay and got beat up for it). This latter made it really difficult to start dating in college because I had all the experience of a middle school student. If that.
There was also physical abuse when I was young, though I don't remember my sister every being punished physically. My father had a very short temper and would explode into rage. One time, I broke the antenna on an old black and white tv set. My father beat my thighs with the antenna. I remember being told many times, "stop crying or I'll give you something to cry about."
My grandmother was into beating me with a belt or a hairbrush, which was really a problem since my parents' neglect mean I was largely raised by her. She was very NPD. God agreed with whatever she said.
Adhd32,I agree
Submitted by dedelight4 on
I agree with your statement, "In sure your parents did the best they could", and your frustration from that. I heard that as well, when I knew even as a child, my parents weren't doing their "best", or even close to it.
My parents gave us up to. our paternal grandparents, who then adopted us. They were very abusive, verbally, mentally and physically. And, other people would often say to us. "I hope you kids are THANKFUL that your grandparents took you in, because, its not everyday someone would just take in a bunch of kids". (Hurtful as a child hearing this)
It was if they were saying that we didnt have a right to have a home and parents, and to be loved. It took me LONG time to get over that hurt. And, these were church people saying this. The ones always talking about God's love, etc.
Anyway, my ADHD husbands mother was like yours. She was very selective with her "favorite" child, who happened to be my husband. And, she was very inattentive to her kids, treating them all very strangely. Her words and actions never seemed to match. We learned several years before she passed that she was bipolar, and had never been diagnosed. This answered a LOT of questions but didn't ease the hurt caused by her abusive behaviors.
I ended up having 6 parents in all total. Two biological,two step-parents and 2 adoptive parents,and NONE of them took responsibility for all the hurt they caused my siblings and me. They ALL avoided it,and wouldn't talk about it, because that would mean some admissions of failing or guilt. This is too bad,because SO much healing and answered questions could have taken place.
So, it was left up to us (the children) to come to terms with their lack of parenting and just plain BAD parenting, and abuse. My older sister and I did a lot of researching into this, and we came to terms with it,and even peace with it. But, mainly the peace came through knowing we had a much "better" Father in Heaven. Jesus became our "Healer" from this craziness, and He still does this today. I'm not trying to preach at you, I'm just saying what happened to us.
All our lives it seemed like we were always "flying by the seat of our pants", because we werent taught anything about life, or how to make good decisions, or much of ANYTHING. So, we made a lot of mistakes just from lack of knowledge. But, thank God, we also made some good decisions. And, we are both better parents to our own children, than ours ever were to us. And, all our kids are grown and productive, loving, hardworking, good people. Forgiveness IS the key to this. And, Jesus taught us a depth of forgiveness we didnt know was possible, in His word. We still fail, and often. But, He's still there, and we love that. Because we never would have made it otherwise.
Sorry, not preaching, just telling my story. But, it does help to talk about the past, and we do often. We still find healing in that also. But now, the depth of hurt isn't there any more. We can talk about it differently, even if sometimes we still cry.
Dede
I’m pretty sure there’s a
Submitted by Hopeful Heart on
I’m pretty sure there’s a connection between the fact that we were raised by people that couldn’t/didn’t love us and we married people that also don’t have the ability to love us. What say all of you?
Hopeful, yes, I totally agree
Submitted by dedelight4 on
Yes, I so GET that now. This seems to be a connecting link. Even though we tried to do differently, we still ended up marrying people that were still (in certain ways) much like those who raised us. Isn't that astounding? Wow, if I only knew then.........
Being a "damaged" person isn't our fault. It can often feel like there's so much pressure today on people who realize they've been raised in hurtful circumstances to "fix" yourselves. It's so much easier said than done. Counseling is good, and has been helpful for me at times, but I still do realize there's a part of me that will never know what it's like to have a true "loving" family. (parental) It sort of left a hole in me I think. But the lack of knowing what a true healthy relationship was, is what took me in wrong directions. Yes, this is interesting, and helpful to know.
Hopeful...I think it effected all of my decision making....
Submitted by c ur self on
This subject came up w/ chevron a while back, the dysfunction that was just part of what we were subjected to growing up...I've come to realize we don't just walk away from our unhealthy past without deep scares, insecurities, and fractured thinking...
But, I also agree w/ much that has been said on this thread....We face it, we deal with it, and we seek healing....My experiences are the same as Dede's...I found healing in the Savior...He loves me not only in spite of my past...He was loving me during those times also...I don't need another human's acceptance to know that I'm loved....That's freeing...But I also know that I was created to Love...
So Yes I agree w/ you, I think many of my decisions about relationships was not based on sound principles for living....Things that are healthy and made to endure....But the reality of it all, in my eyes anyway, is just what one of you said earlier....It's who we are, (many of us stay victims and never release it, or never find that healing) we aren't capable of doing anything better or wiser...It was all we knew until we learned better, until we accepted (found) the peace and healing that is there for us...That identifies and teaches us we are loved, and our true purpose in this life....
Just watch people...What ever past sins or abuses that they drag from their childhood and single life, into their marriages...Walks right down the isle w/ them...We must be delivered, we must find peace....Our thinking must be corrected....I was molested at age 15 multiple times (although not knowing better I though it was great) by a friend's 34 year old Mother...I had to learn how to respect and honor women...It messed me up...My first wife never wanted sex, she loved it during the act, when her body and emotions took over, but, afterward it was like it never happened....She woke up screaming in the middle of the night (in her 40's) and recalled being raped by a brother in law at age 14....Something she had suppressed so deeply for years....But it was clear to me that there was deep scares there....
Yep there are plenty of stories in many of our lives, that we endured until we faced them, and found the healing and deliverance to move past it....
C
I agree
Submitted by vabeachgal on
My Father and my H were very different people, externally, so I thought I was "in the clear". However, each, in their own way, was incapable of a real loving relationship.
I am sure you are right--some
Submitted by dvance on
I am sure you are right--some therapist could write a dissertation on all of us! My father was a violent alcoholic who used to beat my mom and run around threatening us with guns. He killed himself when I was 6, a week before Christmas that year. I think that is what broke my mom. She very well may have issues unrelated to him, but I think there are some things that some people will never recover from--no judgment--everyone is different. She is not terribly resourceful or resilient. I have not seen or spoken to my mom is 19 years. To the best of my knowledge she lives in Arizona with her new husband. I am not sure I would know if she died-not sure who would tell me that. It seems likely that I would choose someone completely opposite of what I knew growing up. For all my husband's fault, he is the most gentle person I have ever known. Now, providing a stable life and a steady paycheck? Not so much.
In many ways, learning to
Submitted by Jon on
In many ways, learning to leave the anger, hurt and disappointment in the past is the only way to deal with it. If you can't can't change it, and all you can do is let it eat you up then all you get is nothing but detriment and depression. Regrets are the most useless of useless emotions, the end up consuming everything you are and leaving a shell of smouldering rage and anger. I think you are slightly wide of the mark about people with ADD not caring about the past, many seem to haul their regrets around like marley's chains forged in life. I run and run to keep ahead of mine but they are always there. I'm always in fight or flight and wound up like a spring. At some point for no other reason but one's own sanity and some semblance of peace we need to sit down with the past and if not make friends with it, at least come to terms with it, a person cannnot run forever.
Poetry and Prose
Submitted by jennalemone on
Hey Jon, You have a gift for turning a phrase. I see in so many of your writings a knack for prose. I myself belong to a poetry circle where I joined a few years ago because I had a need to write down my frustrations and chaos and have someone hear me (much like this forum) and I have been constantly surprised to hear some people comment that I touched them as if I knew what they were thinking and going through..putting the singular yet global thoughts out there to see if it sticks. Many of you have the talents and seem to have the need to express ourselves. It is good therapy to have people hear you in a group.
“Moderate lamentation is the right of the dead, excessive grief the enemy to the living.” Shakespeare
Freedom to Be
Submitted by jennalemone on
(This is one of my poems, It might give solace to some. JL)
Freedom to Be
I write in sadness.
When all other emotions give way to the quiet oasis of
Just being.
Letting go the fight.
Feeling close to love and life.
Allowing
Sweet heaviness to rest upon my shoulders and
drip into my heart.
Filling with life juice.
Heavenly release from pretense.
Refreshing showers of license
wave through and wash over
Removing the happiness facade mandate.
A clear small joy
of self connection.
Giving in to the beauty of truth.
Honesty swirls around and cleanses for the while
as I sit here -
Being real.
JL
Thanks for posting this Jenna....
Submitted by c ur self on
I can feel you, I have been there....There is mystery in each line...
I agree w/ your thoughts about Jon...He writes in soul revealing fashion...
Jenna beautiful poem
Submitted by dedelight4 on
It's amazing to me how many creative people there are on this site. Many are artists, musicians, writers and actors. People with deep feelings and introspection often use the arts to express themselves. It allows us to show our deepest thoughts and feelings in beautiful and creative ways. Love this.
I've been a pianist/organist/accompanist and composer. (Started when I was 4 yes old). I love to "play out" my feelings on the piano. Jenna, thanks for this and your posts.
Thank you. I have always
Submitted by Jon on
Thank you. I have always loved the malleability of the written word. You can work it endlessly to put the emphasize exactly where you want it to be. The flow and selection of just the right words to express how you are feeling.
I very much appreciate your poem, it's a lot if feelings I can relate to. I tend to write in stream of consciousness type initially and then then mold and edit till I'm happy with it. I have been feeling pretty rough of late so to me I find writing a good way of getting out feelings that my otherwise stew and fester. It makes little sense to me to write to myself so places like this make for a good outlet :).
I have been reading a fair bit lately of the research being done on creative thinking and how better to foster it. It turns out that in the current economy, being innovative, intuitive, creative and imaginative are extremely valuable attributes, (who would have thought /s) so it makes sense to do the research to work out how to establish this in our education institutions. Thing that stands out the most is the uncanny similarity between many of the attributes of a creative mind and someone wth ADHD. Many of the elements such as unconventional approaches to problem solving, attraction to activities that provide hight levels of stimulus, higher propensity for risk taking, obsessive laser focus on things they are passionate about are all pretty common in ADD. In my country ( Australia) our schooling system has taken a very centralized curriculum and testing program. Basically the schools have very little scope to modify or customize the curriculum according to the pupils learning needs, and the testing done at certain grade levels across the country captures certain metrics that tend to be pretty much reading, writing and arithmetic. The end result is very pipeline type educations system where surprise surprise there is little scope for creativity, much less un-medicated kids with ADHD. In our haste to streamline the system, we are filtering out the very attributes such as creative problem solving that are at a premium in todays high tech world and then wondering why all our kids are like robots and lack problem solving skills and imagination.
Imagine if we could educate our kids in a system that didn't 'streamline' the difficult and different kids, but instead encouraged hidden talents and abilities and their natural ability to be innovative and think 'outside the square'. I think it would be a better outcome for everyone. And hopefully it would mean we didn't have to get ourselves mired in dysfunctional destructive relationships and disastrous life decisions before we start to think that maybe we should look at fixing those maladaptive coping strategies that are destroying our lives, the lives of our loved ones and virtually every other relationship we ever come into contact with. I have a child with Autism, and it's not JUST ADHD kids that struggle with it. It's pretty well every kid who is not straight out of some pre fab mould. She can likewise do things *very* few 'normal' people can do, like tell me every chord to any song in real-time so that I can play them for her, and sing me a note to tune to that is in perfect pitch every time. I think we have taken a very narrow perspective on what is 'normal' and have confused many of those attributes with 'convenient' because it suits our need for efficiency and in the process MANY kids with valuable abilities and talents are being left behind to the detriment of everyone. So much so now that we have to conduct huge studies to work out where all our creative thinkers went!
Jon, well written and true
Submitted by dedelight4 on
This is an amazing post Jon. I think many teachers would also agree with what you've said about children getting left behind because they think or act "differently". But, in today's world with all its " conformist" mandates, those who choose to think outside the box are the ones now seen as the "odd" ones. When years ago, it was THOSE kind of folks who came up with some of the worlds greatest inventions, art, music and new ways of thought and speech. Sad to say this is now discouraged in American schools, as well as the "global" way of thought. Which I personally feel is a way of being controlled, instead of having freedom. Anyway, thanks Jon for your beautiful post, as well as all the others. So glad you are here.
Dede
:)
Submitted by vabeachgal on
Dede:
Some educators try to go out of their way to allow room for everyone in the classroom :) Admittedly, it is difficult, with the pressure for narrowly defined results. There are HUGE test results pressure on staff. It takes a lot of extra work and time on the part of a teacher if it is not supported curriculum-wise, and not everyone is willing or able to do that. What is being described can be indescribably exhausting for a teacher, sad to say, if the activities have to take place in the prescribed box. The type of education you're talking about takes TIME. Time to allow the kids to explore and discover. Time to get from a to z. Time is a commodity that is not plentiful for teachers who are required to adhere to a specific curriculum and pacing requirements. It's not just the schools, however. This takes parental involvement and initiative as well. Parents also need to provide out of the box enrichment activities, a rich and solid home environment and face time to accomplish what is being described. It's the ultimate irony. So many of the adhd parents described here are not involved with their children, when their involvement could be of great, HUGE value. SHOW them how to channel their specific talents effectively. Help them find and capitalize on their strengths. Don't leave child rearing to the non-ADHD spouse and then complain that the kids don't have enough freedom or opportunity to develop to their best capacity.
My school district has many magnet schools that cater to arts, music, STEM subjects, technology, law enforcement, etc. It's wonderful because then the students can choose to spend more time on things they enjoy working on. BUT, it still requires a parental committment and effort to find the program and resources and get the child placed. I know that not every district is so fortunate. I hate to put it like this, but show them how to "game the system" to fit in "enough." I know that sounds harsh but I do the same thing personally and I'm not add. I am organized "enough" to get by well enough. My brain doesn't play well with anal retentive people. I have zero desire to be more organized. And that's good enough. I am an introvert. I've figured out how to be social "enough" to not compromise my life.
Jon has a lot of good points. I hate to say it, but what he is describing probably requires a purposeful parental decision to remove a child from "mainstream" public education and place a child in a setting that allows for a non-standard curriculum. Another great irony, in my opinion, is that my daughter completed the International Baccalaureate program. It does provide a global, higher level thinking approach with differentiation for students. However ... sigh ... the kids accepted into the program get their because they have succeeded SO WELL in the "in the box" curriculum leading prior to admittance into the program. And it is significantly geared toward college admissions with the associated pressure and competition. The district just doubled the size of the program and created a lottery based admissions process for one location. I'm curious to see how that works out.
Vabeachgal, 3 cheers
Submitted by dedelight4 on
Hooray for an eloquently stated post. THANK YOU. I agree wholeheartedly, and Ido understand just HOW difficult teachers have it today. And you are also correct about the parenting. My husband has been an educator for over 30 years, and we've been involved with several levels of the education systems.
Parents have been falling short of teaching their children many things that they now seem to want the schools and teachers to do. Yes, there are many good parents out there, but sad to say many basic principles of behavior and "thought" (as well as other things) they've been lacking. This makes it so hard on everyone involved. Personal responsibility has been one of the main problems all teachers have been having particular problems with from students. This is also something that must be taught at home.
So, Hooray to all the loving, caring parents who get involved with their schools and teachers, wanting better for their children and everyone. Thanks V.
Dede
Dede, I have to disagree
Submitted by dvance on
Dede, I have to disagree about teachers. While I certainly do not have the pulse of public education everywhere, I can say that in my school and many schools where I have friends teaching, we try very very hard to make space for all kinds of kids. Schools these days have flexible seating--kids can sit on those exercise balls, wobbly chairs, cushions on the floor, rocking chairs, they can use stand up desks or lay on the carpet. They can read a story or use head phones to listen to it. I think we have a very long way to go but even in the 16 years I have been a classroom teacher the tide has turned a lot towards valuing and encouraging and supporting kids who do not learn or operate in traditional ways. We no longer teach tons of mind-mumbing facts-we practice critical thinking, problem solving, collaboration, flexible thinking, agile thinking (lots of ways to call it). I tell you this not to argue, but hopefully to reassure you and give you some hope that conformist mandates are a fading away. We are preparing kids for a very different world than you or I grew up in (I am 47). Rote learning does not work any more (we could argue it didn't work EVER, but that's another conversation). I am the Assistant Principal of a private school and I can tell you we spend a lot of time making sure all our kids feel comfortable in the classroom, trying to get all of the obstacles to learning out of the way. If they are too wiggly to sit in a desk, they can use an exercise ball and bounce away as long as their work still gets done. You are 100% correct that it is the creative out of the box thinkers who are going to rule the world one day! Those are the kids who are going to come up with solutions to problems that never crossed the minds of the more traditional folks (like me).
D Vance, maybe not worded well.
Submitted by dedelight4 on
I am so glad that where you are, the teachers give their students so much leeway. Sorry, but that just hasn't been our experience. My husband has taught in 4 different states and mostly in lower income and inner city type schools. So maybe our view is somewhat altered from what other areas have. But, I wasn't putting DOWN teachers at ALL. In fact I know how HARD they work, and just how much sacrifice and dedication they give.
We have been frustrated watching year after year, students becoming less able, or having a lesser desire to better themselves. And again,maybe that's only in where we've been. My granddaughter is in a private charter school in another state and THEIR teachers and students are doing incredibly well. It's been astounding to watch. My granddaughter is in 1st grade and is reading and writing and doing math that we didn't see kids doing till 3rd or 4th grades in other schools. So, evidently there are varied levels of education everywhere.
So I apologize if I offended you, and I didnt mean to imply this is ALL teachers EVERYWHERE. I was hoping that this point didn't have to be explained,but I assumed wrong. I'm sorry for the statements made.
In addition
Submitted by dedelight4 on
I've been typing on a small tablet, since my computer is down. I don't write out some things I really ought to, since it gets frustrating on this. I really am sorry I wrote anything offensive to you.
My husband has been a teacher for over 33 years.(professor for over 10) He's taught many grade levels of students, including some autistic. ( Itoo, have been involved with the schools in different capacities)
He even taught at a very prestigious University for many years as well, at the same time he was teaching public schools. He was very busy.
It's also been sad for us to watch almost 4 decades of a downward spiral where public education is concerned. This is also backed up with government facts, so its not just my opinion. I know there are areas of the country that have excellent schools, and that's wonderful. I wish that this was the norm, and that there wasn't so many stipulations and mandates put on teachers to almost do the impossible. But, our government IMO has become way too involved with statistics and numbers, and not as concerned about whether the students are actually "learning". We see this currently at the college where my husband is presently. They are VERY concerned about numbers and much less concerned in their students quality of education. Very sad. The professors talk about this often.
Anyway, just again saying sorry.
Oh Dede--no apology needed--I
Submitted by dvance on
Oh Dede--no apology needed--I was not offended at all. There are some terrible teachers and terrible schools out there, it's true. I more wanted to give you and others some hope that not all of us are so rigid!!! I am sorry your husband has had a hard time teaching. It's a hard job under the best of circumstances-I wish administrators and government types didn't make it harder. Even in my school, in a very affluent community, kids are lazy. Work ethic is scarce. For my students, it's because things come very easily to them. My struggle is getting them to go the extra mile and be curious and take pride in a job FULLY well done, not a job done just to meet the exact requirements. I can assign an essay and ask for 5 paragraphs and I will never get six. If I asked for 5, that's what they will give me. That said, my whole staff pushes their students in this way. We try so very hard to have them do more than is literally asked of them and when you get a kid like that, when you see the spark, it is likely the kid who is laying on the floor or bouncing on their ball that is able to think outside the box. That's the kid that is exciting to teach! Their behavior may put you over the edge, but if you can work with that, they may do really extraordinary things.
Really--don't apologize. No offense taken. Thank your husband for his time teaching--I appreciate his commitment!
D Vance, thanks, can relate to this.
Submitted by dedelight4 on
Thanks for the post. My tablet won't let me write your name without auto correcting it, no matter what I do. It keeps changing the d, to an a, and puts in advance, instead of your log in name. LOL
Anyway, I can SO relate to what you wrote. I bet you and my H could really swap some excellent and interesting stories about experiences. The hardest thing H has had to deal with is exactly what you wrote about........and this being the students never giving their best or doing a complete assignment. I help my husband grade papers, and am continually astounded by the lack of grammar, spelling, and the lack of using ANY punctuation. These students are college age, but write at about a 5th, 6th grade level, if that. This is SO sad........and frustrating. Also, the lack of parental involvement in the schools is very low. They just aren't interested, unless the student gets in "trouble". ( then sometimes be careful)
It's just so sad to see how much these young people are given, and watch them discard it, and not seem to care. H has a problem with the students not coming to class and not doing the work needed. This is happening to most of the professors at this school. One question....Why?..just plain why? But, then when grades come out, and those who may be failing want to know what " make up" work they can do to not fail. And, this is usually 1 or 2 days before grades. So, it proves they were being allowed to do this in the lower grades. (It happens every year) And, they always say, "I don't want this to affect my GPA". Every time. ...........amazing. But, they weren't interested about it being affected during the course of the year. Only at grade time. Its a shame, because they have SO much available to them that we never had,and would have LOVED to have had.
Anyway, just wanted to say thanks, and also I enjoy reading your posts. Have a great day.
Dede