Hi
I am new here and this is my first post. I am the non-ADHD partner. My partner of one year is not diagnosed (and he has an aversion to most things in the realm of psychology that involves a diagnosis) but I have suspected for some time he has ADD. I am hoping that I might be able to get some insight by posting some information about our current situation as many of the posts I have read here have been really helpful and have felt like they are hitting really close to home.
Our biggest issue is communication. We have found that often he will say something in the heat of an argument or a heavily emotional conversation that will seem very harsh, out of the blue, or completely contradictory to something he has told me before when we are not in a similar situation. To give some examples: once he was telling me about a situation with a work colleague who holds a value that is different from our own. My partner started saying things that were against our values, failing to mention that he was thinking through how he would try and emphasise with this work colleague out loud. I got upset, thought he was contradicting earlier conversations. This in turn upset him as he couldn't understand why I was upset. Once we had calmed down and tried to talk about it again, it emerged he was thinking out loud. I had no clue of this at the time. He told me that I should have given him the benefit of the doubt based on knowing him - and he's completely right (I have my own set of insecurities my reaction played into) but it is also true that I had no idea how he was thinking out loud or processing the situation.
Another example was when we were discussing something pretty innocent, and I referenced a previous example of a disagreement we had got into. My purpose was not to revisit the disagreement but to simply use it as an example. Anyway, he started revisiting the disagreement and said something that I was trying to change what he watched on TV (I had gone out of my way to make sure I never once said this in the disagreement, and I did in fact say this to him on multiple occasions - I had no intention of changing him). I then got upset because I thought he didn't believe my intention (not to change him, that I had never asked him to stop watching certain shows). This escalated pretty quickly because I was hurt and I am not very good at being calm or rational when I am hurt.
When we revisited this once we had calmed down (he is very good at revisiting conversations or disagreements and he will preserve until we both feel "right" again), it turned out that he was thinking out loud again. Instead of telling me how he felt (which is how I interpreted it) he was simply voicing the thought processes to try and come to a conclusion. I found this really hard to get my head around until later in the day when he told me that he found it really hard to be able to think about anything in the middle of me being hurt/springing something on him that felt emotional (in this instance because I had referenced a previous disagreement he immediately felt on edge and emotional), and that he basically shuts down. One of his attempts at overriding this is thinking out loud.
It became even more clear during a few moments where we were just messing around and having fun together. He was trying to come up with rhyming words (who knows why? Lol) and he was saying them out loud. A few times the words did not rhyme and he said, again out loud "no, that's not right." It suddenly dawned on me that he was unable to realise that the words did not rhyme until he had said them out loud and he was then able to consider them properly. Suddenly a lot of things made sense and I began to connect the dots. All of the disagreements we had about things he had said were not because he meant them himself, which is what I always took it as being, but it was simply his way of processing something. His cognitive processes make more sense out loud. I do my thinking in my head and he only gets the conclusion. It seemed like such a revelation. I mentioned it to him, and we talked about it a bit, where he confirmed certain things to me.
Other things I have noticed:
Difficulties:
he's practically unable to hold a proper conversation or reply to me, or sometimes even listen, if we are in an environment with a lot of noise, actions, visual stimulus etc.
his time keeping is pretty poor. He's often late to things and doesn't understand the frustration
on the whole he is very lazy (he sleeps a crazy amount), and he finds it very hard to motivate himself to do anything without prompting. He tells me that he does want to do the things and to please tell him/prompt him/initiate going out etc. but finds it hard to do himself
He considers himself selfish, and in some ways he is - his favourite pastime is playing video games and he would do this for hours and hours every single night, without fail, if he could get away with it. His default reaction when I suggest something out of his normal routine (which includes seeing me two days a week) is to say no - again, he says this is him processing it and thinking out loud but of course it's hard for me to override that response to wait and hear what else he has to say.
His confidence is very low because of all of these and he thinks he is stupid because of the way his mind works. He's really not stupid.
Positives:
He is very observant and he sees things I do not. As a writer, I envy his perception
He is incredibly loyal, incredibly genuine and very open with his emotions. I think we would have big issues if this wasn't the case. A lot of the insecurities I have that are fuelled by his thinking that I outlined above are calmed by the other things he says and does.
He is very smart and dedicates himself when he truly wants to. I wish he could believe he is smart.
He is literally the nicest person I know. He goes out of his way to help people, he knows right from wrong, he acts like a gentleman and treats me like a lady.
He tries. So so hard. Which leads me onto my conclusion...
I realise how hard he tries, and I want to help him. Especially now it has dawned on me what he does and how he processes things and how hard he takes it when I get upset. I am devoted to him and our relationship and I want to make this as good as I can. I was wondering if any of the above hits a nerve with anyone? If anyone can offer insight? If there are any tips?
Many thanks
Processing Out Loud
Submitted by kellyj on
All of this sounds familiar because I do this...or have done this too in varying amounts. First....it definitely sounds like this is an ADHD thing for sure. The fact that he tells you these things himself and has narrowed it down somewhat, tells me he is aware of it but he's really sure just not sure how to describe what is happening. I'll give you my own thoughts of what happens with me in cases like this to try and help you understand or interpret him. That's just it.....I think you need to decipher what you are seeing and hearing from him in order to know what he's trying to say or what's actually happening while he's doing this.
I think one promising aspect to this as far as the communication is concerned is that he is at least, aware and open enough to be willing to try and talk about instead of completely denying or rationalizing it away to being something else.....or blaming it completely on you. That's a good sign. But it doesn't mean that this isn't frustrating for you because I already know that it is from my own experience.
What happens with me in moments like you described, is having an idea or thought I want to say, but literally not knowing how to say it. If you stand back from this sentence, and re read it again as a literal statement I think this will give you one clue in a means to understand.
Suddenly a lot of things made sense and I began to connect the dots. All of the disagreements we had about things he had said were not because he meant them himself, which is what I always took it as being, but it was simply his way of processing something. His cognitive processes make more sense out loud. I do my thinking in my head and he only gets the conclusion. It seemed like such a revelation. I mentioned it to him, and we talked about it a bit, where he confirmed certain things to me.
Good. At least you yourself have come to this much understanding without trying to explain this into your own version or what you think he's doing or trying to assign something else he's not doing to it as an explanation. For me...that ramps up the level of misunderstanding times 10 when I have to try an argue or debate what it is I'm doing or not doing that is wrong with another person who insists that whatever they think's happening must be correct and it is me who is incorrect. That's a losing battle and a worthless one to have on all levels...it will just cause more arguments or fights over nothing ( the topic at hand ) because it isn't about that. It's about his ability to process information: collect his thoughts/ideas/emotions, put them into a logical, linear progression in his head, filter or edit them into a concise and succinct form and then speak them simply in one or two sentences. In a nut shell.....you're hearing this entire chain of events out loud and what comes out are all the incomplete portions somewhat out of context to each other until he gets them all put into it's finalized version at the end of what he's saying.
You may notice that he does not have trouble doing this all the time. That shows you that he can do the processing without this happening. That's part of the confusion. When I'm angry.....I can be as clear and concise as anyone on the planet. In fact, in those moments especially if I'm being self righteous or feel threatened either unintentionally.....or worse, if it's overt, I've had comments made to me where people are somewhat shocked or surprised just how well I can be incredibly articulate, precise and expressive at the same time in no uncertain terms! lol
That's just it......if I know I know how I feel or know the topic at hand....I can speak, tell, teach, argue, debate or express emotions as clearly and easily as anyone else...no problem
The problem comes in trying to connect my own feelings an emotions (that I most definitely have going in either direction) with another persons feelings and emotions, listen to them while they are expressing them,follow their train of thought, processing my own train of thought, hold that thought or idea without losing it while waiting for an appropriate time to respond in the exchange, then responding back to them with a finished idea or conclusion in a fluid exchange in a back an forth conversation like most people can do without trying or having to think about. I think this is where people can get confused with having not having empathy, not being a good listener, or worse.....thinking that you can't or just don't have the ability to understand things cognitively where in reality....none of those things are really what happening.
The key to what I just said is "not having to think about it." In other words......needing more time to process this at different stages manually instead of what most people do in the moment without a second thought. We can't do this. We get stuck somewhere in the process and have to literally ( manually ) go through a kind of mental 'triage" or "culling" of an amorphous mass of ideas and thoughts that all come cascading into the fore front of our thoughts that otherwise should be somewhat automatic an that happens in a fraction of a second for most people (and even us) if it is in a clear and concise form already in our heads.
Another way to look at it and from my research is to say we lack some necessary filters that would normally do this for us automatically in that same spit second.
It ain't happening for us. Just like you said....you connected the dots to figure this out in part and write what you have concluded here in the same way you do when you speak.....and he isn't or can't connect the dots in the moment to speak clearly and concisely in a condensed down version in the same way.
What I think he is saying in those moments without a good explanation to this is.......".I can't keep up with you in my processing when we talk so instead, I'm verbalizing all the ideas, speculations, and logical arguments and conclusions in the unprocessed versions of each isolated step in the processing all the unedited, uncongealed mass of words and choices in vocabulary.....audibly...... instead of waiting until I what and how I want to say it first in the same way you do (in the moment) in part, so I don't lose my train of thought, in part, so I can hold onto my thought, in part, because you've already moved past my idea, in part, because I'm trying to listen and follow you, in part, because there emotions to add into this( added processing) and express, and in part.....because I have to do this in less time that it takes me to do this compared to you or everyone else so instead of saying nothing and appearing aloof or uninterested....I'll just barf it all onto the table and we can sort it out later once I can see all the pieces in front of me and we can just piece it together when it's your turn to speak. Which....are all likely to change or be wrong in the moment until we/I have to time to think about it and piece it together and come to a singular logical conclusion first...before I speak. "(yikes...what a mess!! lol )
If this makes any sense to your then this is probably exactly what you are seeing if that's any help to you?
J
This is unbelievable helpful
Submitted by roseamongstthorns on
This is unbelievable helpful and I am so grateful for you taking the time out to explain and clarify certain parts. I will comment on specific parts of your comments in a moment but I was wondering, generally, what helps you in times like these that I have described? What would you want for the other person to do to help you out in those situations, to make it easier on you to deal with them? When I spoke to my partner about this, we didn't have much time left (we live over an hour away from each other and weekends are currently our only time), and all he could say was how hard he found it when I brought something up without giving him advanced warning to think about it (in terms of arguments or serious issues), and that he couldn't "deal with it" when it was high emotion.
I think one promising aspect to this as far as the communication is concerned is that he is at least, aware and open enough to be willing to try and talk about instead of completely denying or rationalizing it away to being something else.....or blaming it completely on you. That's a good sign. But it doesn't mean that this isn't frustrating for you because I already know that it is from my own experience.
Thanks, I thought this too - he is really willing to try, and he does see things through to the bitter end, no matter how sad or how frustrated he might be. And you're right, it is frustrating for me, but I love him, what can I say? :) I want to help him. I want to make this work.
That ramps up the level of misunderstanding times 10 when I have to try an argue or debate what it is I'm doing or not doing that is wrong with another person who insists that whatever they think's happening must be correct and it is me who is incorrect. That's a losing battle and a worthless one to have on all levels...it will just cause more arguments or fights over nothing ( the topic at hand ) because it isn't about that. It's about his ability to process information: collect his thoughts/ideas/emotions, put them into a logical, linear progression in his head, filter or edit them into a concise and succinct form and then speak them simply in one or two sentences. In a nut shell.....you're hearing this entire chain of events out loud and what comes out are all the incomplete portions somewhat out of context to each other until he gets them all put into it's finalized version at the end of what he's saying.
Absolutely. This felt like such a big deal to finally get this level of understanding, because I have spent a lot of time confused, wondering what he really does mean because there are often contradictions (which of course then plays into my own trust issues), and getting very upset at certain things he has said (in one argument, where he was trying to understand someone else's position outloud -a position very different to our own - he failed to tell me this and I spent the whole conversation thinking he was doing a 180 and confessing something else entirely).
You may notice that he does not have trouble doing this all the time. That
shows you that he can do the processing without this happening. That's part
of the confusion. When I'm angry.....I can be as clear and concise as
anyone on the planet. In fact, in those moments especially if I'm being
self righteous or feel threatened either unintentionally.....or worse, if
it's overt, I've had comments made to me where people are somewhat shocked or
surprised just how well I can be incredibly articulate, precise and
expressive at the same time in no uncertain terms! Lol
It is very interesting you say this because he did say that. It was confusing to him that sometimes he has trouble with this and sometimes he does not. Is there a way to make it clearer to both of us when this struggle arises?
The problem comes in trying to connect my own feelings an emotions (that I
most definitely have going in either direction) with another persons
feelings and emotions, listen to them while they are expressing them,follow
their train of thought, processing my own train of thought, hold that thought
or idea without losing it while waiting for an appropriate time to respond in
the exchange, then responding back to them with a finished idea or
conclusion in a fluid exchange in a back an forth conversation like most
people can do without trying or having to think about. I think this is where
people can get confused with having not having empathy, not being a good
listener, or worse.....thinking that you can't or just don't have the ability
to understand things cognitively where in reality....none of those things are
really what happening.
This is a brilliant explanation, and I think this is where he has issues too. He tells me that he doesn’t want to hurt me by saying something he doesn’t mean, but he feels that he HAS to say something because otherwise I will think he is ignoring me, and so he just blurts out the process.
What I think he is saying in those moments without a good explanation to this
is.......".I can't keep up with you in my processing when we talk so instead,
I'm verbalizing all the ideas, speculations, and logical arguments and
conclusions in the unprocessed versions of each isolated step in the
processing all the unedited, uncongealed mass of words and choices in
vocabulary.....audibly...... instead of waiting until I what and how I want
to say it first in the same way you do (in the moment) Which....are likely
to change or be wrong in the moment until I have to time to think about and
come to a singular logical conclusion first...before I speak. "(yikes...what
a mess!! lol )
If this makes any sense to your then this is probably exactly what you are
seeing if that's any help to you?
I think this is exactly what he is trying to tell me. Only...he looked so vulnerable and open saying it that it breaks my heart. He feels really stupid because this is how it is for him. I kept on reassuring him that he isn't stupid, and that I do not think he is either, but he has a childhood of being told he is stupid (and when they tested him, his IQ was in fact in the upper range but he was left in the slower sets with slower children because the teachers did not understand the discrepancy). His self-esteem is really low, he thinks I am way smarter than him (not true at all), and I just want to make this a lot smoother for him all round. He deserves to be happy and he deserves great things. I want him to have enough confidence to reach for them.
Thanks again. :)
Your Intuition is Pretty Much Spot On....Excellent for You
Submitted by kellyj on
Okay then (lol).....Let me see how to piece this together myself for you? There are few things going on simultaneously that I have separate out first...
Difficulties:
he's practically unable to hold a proper conversation or reply to me, or sometimes even listen, if we are in an environment with a lot of noise, actions, visual stimulus etc.
My wife has this problem but I don't.....I also don't have noise sensitivities but I understand this is a common problem for people with ADHD. For my wife, she said this problem only started for her after she was a certain age. I think this is a filtering issue too. Interesting to note for me, because I have had a mild hearing loss ever since I was an infant so my hearing ability is diminished in certain frequency ranges especially the high ends while most of the other ranges except for the extreme lows are pretty much normal. I miss a lot of things that people say but usually only one word in a sentence. I also have trouble hearing compressed aural wave forms ie: cheesy AM car radios and TV's and any small poor fidelity music speaker. Interesting to note also that I can turn the volume down in comparison on my home stereo which is an upper end stereo with high end speakers? In general however.....I have trouble hearing the lyrics of all music until I have heard a song repeatedly until I can make out what they are saying....pretty much across the board no matter what sound system is being used? Less a matter of not being able to make out the words in this case?
his time keeping is pretty poor. He's often late to things and doesn't understand the frustration
I just made another post (2 days ago?) describing what I think this is. You might get a different clinically accepted reason for this but this is what it feels like for me. Also noting here, it sounds like he has ADHD vs ADD. There is more to this than just the acronym so I won't get into that but....it does appear that especially in ADHD it is really common to hyper focus as a means to filter out sensory overload in order to concentrate on something of interest or importance. When I do this...."time stands still" yet, when I'm not in hyper focus mode, I could probably tell you precisely after 5 minutes has gone by to a pretty accurate degree. But this appears to be the source of one of the biggest issues we and you with someone who has ADHD....are dealing with the problem associated with it.
on the whole he is very lazy (he sleeps a crazy amount), and he finds it very hard to motivate himself to do anything without prompting. He tells me that he does want to do the things and to please tell him/prompt him/initiate going out etc. but finds it hard to do himself
I have no idea what this is all about but I too use to sleep A LOT!! but, I'm not lazy. No one has ever accused me of that in fact....just the opposite? Now that sounds more ADHD vs ADD for me and less for him? When I hit my late 40's...this seemed to go away. What a blessing! I use to dream about how great it would be if you never needed to sleep. Just think of the extra life you could have and all the things you could get done if that were possible!! This was largely due to the fact that I was always tired before...and to this day, I can usually fall asleep at the drop of a hat and can sleep through a bomb explosion going off in another room. That incudes the fact that I'm a speed junkie ( sorry..making light of myself only) ie: I'm on Adderall.
He considers himself selfish, and in some ways he is - his favourite pastime is playing video games and he would do this for hours and hours every single night, without fail, if he could get away with it. His default reaction when I suggest something out of his normal routine (which includes seeing me two days a week) is to say no - again, he says this is him processing it and thinking out loud but of course it's hard for me to override that response to wait and hear what else he has to say.
video games = hyper focus. Hyper focus not only helps filter thoughts out and negative or difficult emotions....it feels good for that reason. It's a way to take a break or vacation from living in a constant state of chaos and turmoil in your head. The more processing as he calls it...the more you need a break from it. It seems counter intuitive for him to say he's actually taking a break from processing when he's hyper focusing on video games but that's what happening with me when I do something like this. I'm not into video games...but it's what ever your interested in or can get you into hyper focus mode by itself. the problems is, hyper focus is more than being lazy or wasting time. It really becomes a means of survival or mental rest for us at times but.....when time stands still, you end up much longer than necessary. I've got it down now where I can take a break (for about 10 -15 minutes) as needed ( from work for example )....go here or somewhere on the internet...do some research like I do (look things up and read about them)...and go back to work and I feel mentally rested enough to continue. If I'm note paying attention to time or set timers for example.....an hour can go by before I notice it. That's a problem! Is he really lazy or does he spend more time than he needs to hyper focusing? I'd guess the latter possibly. But the biggest issue here is in learning how to control when and where this happens...and then, how to stop it. I can't stop the effect...in some ways I wouldn't want to, it's a blessing and a curse all at the same time. I have learned some control over when, where, and how long by learning to break out of it or even to go into it more unconsciously. These are leaned skill but before you get some control of it.....it has more control of you. Think of breaking a wild horse. lol
His confidence is very low because of all of these and he thinks he is stupid because of the way his mind works. He's really not stupid. I wanted to say that he's lucky to be with you. I think you're a pretty sharp cookie (no implied sexism here...just playing with words ) to be as intuitive as you have about him as your already have figured out so far. I think you are way ahead of the curve so to speak. And you also mentioned how these things hit up against your own insecurities. I can't tell you how hard it is to get someone to see just that much in themselves...that includes me for most of my life. If you want to understand him and where is feelings about himself come from....all you need to do is think about the things you already said and apply them to a person who knows that there is something wrong but cannot explain it to anyone....and on top of this.....has had the same experience with other people like he did at school where people mis-access his real abilities, IQ and potential. The key word for you here....... is to believe in him and is his potential because he just doesn't see this yet in himself. He still believes what everyone else has told him he is instead of believing in himself which is understandable if you stand back and think about it in these terms. Think about this in terms of lying in a comatose state where you are still awake and aware of everyone around you and can hear them but unable to respond or speak back to them....and conversely, they believe you can't hear so there fore, you cannot speak either. This is a similar analogy to what it is like for him. He's trying his best to describe something that he knows is actually real and happening...but he doesn't understand why? He's not able to see these things as I have descried them in the same was I couldn't do before. It makes you feel cut off and isolated without the ability to speak and have a conversation in the same way everyone else does, but yet.....you desperately want to express yourself, be heard and understood and want the connection at the same time. But there comes a time when you try to do this enough with other people......and all you get is mocking, ridicule and irritation in some form or another, that it's just easier to live without and a less painful alternative than to continue to try just to be shot down again. It's not a very good compromise in fact....it's a horrible one to have to make.
If you can take this and use it in way to break through to him in a way he can understand it without the fear that you will be just another person in a lifetime of people who will reject him (ultimately ) for his failure or liabilities in these areas...you will already be 90% on your way to finding out just how he ticks. He's ready to be defensive out of protection his feelings surrounding these things which have been hurt just one too many times before. If you are the person who doesn't do this....then your money in the bank.....you're golden.
PS....this is probably the most difficult aspect for someone to with a person with ADHD without hitting on their insecurities and setting off their defense mechanisms but...the best way to approach him is by asking questions and simply not making assumptions to start with. Your intuition like I said is better guide than what you know or think you know. I wouldn't say this to everyone...but it does appear that you have figured a lot out on your own without making the same assumption and mistakes (understandable ones ) in your own thinking. He can't tell you something he can't explain himself and he's already really guarded in feeling that if he goes to therapy or otherwise.....he will not hear any more good news and he's just not up for that yet untill he feels a little safer with you (or anyone). I'd listen to your intuition in this case instead of him and use it to interpret or narrow down the things he says instead of taking him literally for everything I already told you the reason why...then ask questions to see what he says then you can go from there.
Between the two of you....one of you needs to understand what' s happening or you both will be lost. Try not to take these personally and move right past to what is probably more accurately the case with him.
FYI: Adderall does wonders for me in helping with the communication issues...my ability to do it. But he needs to get past his own insecurities about these issues in the first place before you can jump right in and think it will do anything before that happens. It is more work an effort to be with us without a doubt...but if you are willing to do the extra work involved...this will speak volumes without you doing anything else in his ability to connect with you. It will pay off big time is what I'm saying.
J
Specific Advise roseamongstthorns
Submitted by kellyj on
You asked.... I was wondering, generally, what helps you in times like these that I have described? What would you want for the other person to do to help you out in those situations, to make it easier on you to deal with them? When I spoke to my partner about this, we didn't have much time left (we live over an hour away from each other and weekends are currently our only time), and all he could say was how hard he found it when I brought something up without giving him advanced warning to think about it (in terms of arguments or serious issues), and that he couldn't "deal with it" when it was high emotion.
I had some time to think about this ( what were we talking about again? lol) specifically when he said "he couldn't deal with it" when emotions are high
What I said about having to add emotion into all the other processing.....added processing. I think the easiest way to interpret what he saying instead would be " I'm hitting "sensory overload" or "sensory assault" from an emotional stand point. Too much, too fast, all at once. This could be in his own denial of this too? None the less.....it's too much meaning.....try again later but don't push when he says these things. He's giving you the early warning sign to "back off".
I know with my wife.....she couldn't leave this alone. She was experiencing her own sensory overload in a different way which is more compulsive which means....she can't leave it alone because she needs to express it to get rid of it. Another way to put this would be....a lot of things bother her. For me.....what historically has been the only thing that really bothers me...are people who are bothered by a lot of things! lol That was a recipe for disaster every time and usually lead to a fight. But the fight was not about the subject matter but more out of psychic defense....for both of us. And neither one of us could really see this at the time. Her insecurities are definitely anxiety related and a lot of things create anxiety for her! Including me!! lol If you picture Felix Unger and Oscar Madison in the Odd Couple....I'll give you one guess who Oscar is in our relationship. I think I'm going to watch the movie again now that I'm thinking about it. lol
The other thing that really, really registered with me is when he said needing "advance warning" before he could talk about high emotions. If you can't see the correlation...look at what I said about "early warning sign" to back off. I can't tell you if he is a person that emotionally shut down or not but if he is anything like me....that's not what's happening. Also...what he's saying about only with"high emotions" is not fully accurate either. I have to have time to process period. High emotions just takes longer and tryng to do this while having a conversation at the same time is impossible for me to do without hitting sensory overload.
Think about a computer when it freezes up. Most of the time when this happens is that there are too many things running in the background and you are putting more demand on it's RAM and the hard drive speed is overtaking it...the results....it crashes. Your partners RAM is peaked out and his hard drive is running at full speed and his response in those moments is only "I can't deal with it". This isn't very helpful or accurately informative to you in those moments, and you probably are thinking it has something to do with you or the topic at hand. With me I found....that this is th culprit in those moments not anything else. All I need is a moment or more to come back later and talk about things when I've had a chance to process it on my own and in my own time. I'm also much better and faster at this than I used to be but......when I hit the wall, I hit the wall. It's a bad time to push and I have had to learn not to get angry even when I am. I've also learned to do this too by simply recognizing this first which makes it much easier for me to see what's happening in the moment so I don't over react.
That gets confusing for everyone...separating emotions from the process but....it can be done and I've gotten pretty good at doing this and have been able to give other people a better response like " give me a little time to think about this." Which is really saying exactly what I need. If people don't listen or respect this.....I will usually try an excuse myself nicely but....if they persist and it starts reaching critical.....now I just turn around and walk away, only to come back and try again when my RAM cools down.
The important thing here is to recognize that any anger is about being overloaded or overwhelmed ....surprised, not prepared and not being able to process everything all at once...and not so much about the thing that is being discussed. Like you were saying...your partners willingness and openness would suggest this rather than being about you or the thing you're both are talking about. Maybe a little of both? I can only speak for myself here.
Anyway....I hope this helps. If he is anything like me...this would be pretty accurate.
J
I know with my wife.....she
Submitted by roseamongstthorns on
I know with my wife.....she couldn't leave this alone. She was experiencing her own sensory overload in a different way which is more compulsive which means....she can't leave it alone because she needs to express it to get rid of it. Another way to put this would be....a lot of things bother her. For me.....what historically has been the only thing that really bothers me...are people who are bothered by a lot of things! lol That was a recipe for disaster every time and usually lead to a fight. But the fight was not about the subject matter but more out of psychic defense....for both of us. And neither one of us could really see this at the time. Her insecurities are definitely anxiety related and a lot of things create anxiety for her!
Maybe this is a female thing, or purely coincidental. Women often feel better for talking, which is what this is an example of. I need to express to clear it too. And a lot of my issues are anxiety fueled too. However, the one advantage I have in this arena is self belief. I overcame a lot in my twenties and I believe I have equipped myself with the ability to step back, look at my issues, and then try and figure out a way around them. I may feel insecure and anxious, but if I can tell myself that allowing my partner his time to process will end up with better results then I can put up with the discomfort. Besides, it's like anything - once you've realised it's not so bad, it gets easier each time.
The other thing that really, really registered with me is when he said needing "advance warning" before he could talk about high emotions. If you can't see the correlation...look at what I said about "early warning sign" to back off. I can't tell you if he is a person that emotionally shut down or not but if he is anything like me....that's not what's happening. Also...what he's saying about only with"high emotions" is not fully accurate either. I have to have time to process period. High emotions just takes longer and tryng to do this while having a conversation at the same time is impossible for me to do without hitting sensory overload.
I don't think he is emotionally shut down. If anything, he's one of the most emotionally available guys I have ever come across. He is very open with his feelings on the whole, and even if he is unable to always articulate his distress, when we have "revisiting" conversations about arguments, he is often able to tell me that he is worried all the time, that he blames himself for our issues all the time, and he has often thought he will never be able to have a relationship and he is destined to be alone because of his issues. Of course, I don't agree with these things, but I think it is valuable that he is able to express these fears so I am made aware of them. He's also very demonstrative with how he feels about me - I mentioned to him recently that this is the one thing that allows me to work on my own insecurities; he's never given me a single reason not to trust him because he is completely open and genuine. We have a solid foundation.
Think about a computer when it freezes up. Most of the time when this happens is that there are too many things running in the background and you are putting more demand on it's RAM and the hard drive speed is overtaking it...the results....it crashes. Your partners RAM is peaked out and his hard drive is running at full speed and his response in those moments is only "I can't deal with it". This isn't very helpful or accurately informative to you in those moments, and you probably are thinking it has something to do with you or the topic at hand. With me I found....that this is th culprit in those moments not anything else. All I need is a moment or more to come back later and talk about things when I've had a chance to process it on my own and in my own time. I'm also much better and faster at this than I used to be but......when I hit the wall, I hit the wall. It's a bad time to push and I have had to learn not to get angry even when I am. I've also learned to do this too by simply recognizing this first which makes it much easier for me to see what's happening in the moment so I don't over react.
The computer analogy is brilliant. Well observed (interestingly, one of my favourite things about my partner is how observant he is. I am the writer, yet he notices things I could never hope to. Thankfully he lets me steal them. And he gives me story ideas). I think you're right though - he does hit that wall and he does often get angry and then he blurts things out that he either immediately takes back, or they don't make sense and I point it out, or they have no real context, because he feels he HAS to say something. I need to let him know it is okay to tell me he's "frozen" and that we will revisit when he has closed down some windows. ;) And you're right - invariably I will think that the topic (or me) is the issue and then my insecurities kick in. Next time I will try asking him if he need time out to process. Thanks :)
Like you were saying...your partners willingness and openness would suggest this rather than being about you or the thing you're both are talking about.
I've never really considered this (because of my own issues, obviously) but you're right. It happens no matter the topic, if emotions are high. If I am upset this his reaction is already at this wall.
Maybe this is a female thing, or purely coincidental.
Submitted by kellyj on
Women often feel better for talking, which is what this is an example of. I need to express to clear it too. And a lot of my issues are anxiety fueled too. However, the one advantage I have in this arena is self belief.
I'm of the mind that says, people are people and emotions are emotions no matter what gender you are. If you start here in your logic.....then men and women are not different in what they experience when it comes to feelings? Men don't feel less than women in other words even though, I think they are taught to deal with them differently from a societal point of view. I am more stoic than my wife for sure.....and I'm more stoic than a lot of men at times in comparison. Despite my enormous capacity for being openly and verbally expressive at times in copious amounts ( saying somewhat factitiously now ha ha)....I am like you partner too in the way you described him as being very willing and openly honest about my faults and usually have very little to hide in the way of feelings or thoughts. I'm definitely not shut down emotionally is what I'm saying. lol
But...I've also learned to integrate with other men in a kind of .."men only...locker room" kind of way as well for all the things I have done in my past especially growing up being on sport teams. I don't want you to get side tracked in your thinking here of where I'm going with this because I think this is really is something that I think is very important to the things you saying ( and some of your speculations that I have thought about too)...as I do, I tend to sight examples so this is just one case in point to be sure. The main sport that I did growing up for many years was swimming even though I did other ones too like baseball and water polo which are both team sports. Even though swimming competitively means you are a team in one sense....it is a solitary activity and who you are really competing against is yourself and the time clock. No one else matters when it's your turn at bat (so to speak). But there is one seeming exception about swimming on a team that differs from almost any other sport I can think of.....and that is.....you train, travel, and compete as a team with women (girls) side by side until it is actually time to race which is about 2% of the time. Even the scoring for each team at a competition is the cumulative times of everyone as a team both boys and girls together as one. It's not ever separated by gender. This means, at any given time.....you are placed, ranked, and even put into the same swimming lanes together when training by time not gender so it's always a mix of genders in all things equally speaking....based on performance and time only...nothing else. This means.....women have the same chance as men and the criteria for this is unquestionably absolute and unambiguous based solely on the time clock.
Growing up with these women swimming competitors and swimming side by side with them... comparing them to all other women. I think it's really interesting to note that they end up thinking and behaving more like men in this situation not the other way around. I don't think this has anything to do with hormones either. It has to do with being put into the same set of expectations that they have a responsibility to as a team and I noticed no difference what so ever between how both genders responded exactly the same and everyone was on the same page with it actually having to be said or expressed. And one of the interesting things that I noticed was that most of these women were also rather stoic and silent when it came to expressing their emotions more in the same way guys are too in those moments. There were always gender preferences that were obvious, but not so much in how they responded the same way under extreme stress and raw emotion saying.....the kind of "boys don't cry" attitude the same as the guys.
I cried a couple of times when I was devastated emotionally during a competition...but I went off to be alone with a towel over my head so no one would see me. I would see girls doing the same thing too but everyone knew what we were doing anyway because everyone had come to those moments themselves and it was an unspoken grace that was given in those moments.
The point I'm trying to make here and the reason for it is......I've found myself without giving any thought to this as I got older and away from sports in the real world....carrying with me an expectation of women more as equals but that they toe the line and keep it together emotionally the same as my experience was with these girls growing up since this is where I spent most of my time and socialization. Boy...was I wrong in that assumption! lol Not only was this not welcomed by most women I met, but it was viewed with disdain, protest and outcry in no uncertain terms. In other words...I learned rather quickly that this did not work very well for me. lol Not all women of course...but by far the minority in this case.
I've come to the conclusion that roles have more to do with this than anything and the traditional role whether you like it or not.....of men as being the head of the household...put us in the position of being somewhat ..."responsible for the team" in other words where women tend to be more responsible for their children traditionally and in support of the team. What I'm saying is more in terms of the Asian concept of society (all for one thinking) versus Western philosophy as favoring individualism and more every man for themselves thinking. I can't help but see this when I see how differently the women (or girls) responded under the same set of rules and expectations as guys back when I was swimming and even how that played out in their personalities later on. It's not that they were more masculine because hey weren't...(not at all, let me tell you. ouch! lol ) But they shared the same attitudes and thinking in just the same way without it ever being expressly taught to to be this way. I think this is fascinating and extremely relevant to what I am trying to say here. Sorry for my long winded stories...I don't know how else to make these points? lol
so back to.....Women often feel better for talking, which is what this is an example of. I need to express to clear it too. And a lot of my issues are anxiety fueled too. However, the one advantage I have in this arena is self belief. The one thing that you share in common with the women I am referring too (the swimmers) is self belief.....this is not something you can buy in a store, it has to come from inside you somewhere and there's no other facsimile to replace it. But based on the experience in my example....I don't believe that women feel any better than men IF men talk about or express the same feelings that woman do. I think it works the same both ways and the need is exactly the same. ( including what we feel )
But, like my example in my life.....I noticed how women later on did not respond well to how I related to them and expressed the same emotions in the same way I had with a different set of women who had learned over time to express themselves the same as I did for the same reasons under the same circumstance.
I think this is huge. I've found over time.....I had to become more "like women" in general in one way , in order to communicate with them and expressed myself better.and more effectively...in the same way that the girls or women I swam with back in the day...became "more like men" in the same way.
I find this absolutely fascinating!! lol
J
I'm going to take each of
Submitted by roseamongstthorns on
I'm going to take each of your replies separately.
in ADHD it is really common to hyper focus as a means to filter out sensory overload in order to concentrate on something of interest or importance. When I do this...."time stands still" ...
I haven't really asked him about this. One thing that springs to mind though, and I don't know if this has anything to do with a potential condition, or more to do with his gaming, but he needs quite a lot of sleep. He sleeps heavily and he is very hard to wake in the morning. He sets multiple alarms. This factors in to why he is often late (or cuts it very fine).
It's a way to take a break or vacation from living in a constant state of chaos and turmoil in your head. The more processing as he calls it...the more you need a break from it. It seems counter intuitive for him to say he's actually taking a break from processing when he's hyper focusing on video games but that's what happening with me when I do something like this. I'm not into video games...but it's what ever your interested in or can get you into hyper focus mode by itself. the problems is, hyper focus is more than being lazy or wasting time. It really becomes a means of survival or mental rest for us at times but.....when time stands still, you end up much longer than necessary. I've got it down now where I can take a break (for about 10 -15 minutes) as needed ( from work for example )....go here or somewhere on the internet...do some research like I do (look things up and read about them)...and go back to work and I feel mentally rested enough to continue.
I found your views on this fascinating. His gaming was an issue from us from the start, mostly because he made out it was something precious that he protected that I couldn't really talk about. Of course this made me notice it more than I may have otherwise, and I did think at one time he had a gaming addiction. I did approach this with him, and bless him, despite being very frustrated with me, he explained how he doesn't do it like he used to, how he changed how he plays, and how he has reduced the amount he plays - on purpose. I think it helps that because we only have weekends together, and therefore concentrated periods of time, gaming has always been off limits - I told him in no uncertain terms I wouldn't just sit and watch him play. Now we are more settled in the relationship, we have discussed gaming more, and as an attempt to bond over similar interests (we are generally very different) we selected a game we both could get into on some level and have started to play it together on the odd weekend we are at his (it's off limits to him at any other time lol). When I do try and talk to him about gaming he is very clear to tell me that he loves doing it. So I don't know where the crossover with the hyper focus is. Does he love it because it allows him to hyper focus? I will give him his credit - our primary means of communication on a weekday is text, and he does text me regularly whilst he is gaming (generally).
I wanted to say that he's lucky to be with you. I think you're a pretty sharp cookie (no implied sexism here...just playing with words ) to be as intuitive as you have about him as your already have figured out so far. I think you are way ahead of the curve so to speak. And you also mentioned how these things hit up against your own insecurities. I can't tell you how hard it is to get someone to see just that much in themselves...that includes me for most of my life.
That's very sweet of you to say so. I think partly it comes from my having somewhat of a background in psychology (I studied it at uni, though it has nothing to do with my career now), and also the amount of research I did into mental illnesses because of my own past issues. I am self-aware, even if I can't always stop my insecurities playing out. I do need to point out though - I am lucky to have him too. I don't consider any of these issues we have as blocks in our relationship, simply our own unique set of hurdles we need to vault over. He is no less of a person for having his particularly issues - I have my own.
The key word for you here....... is to believe in him and is his potential because he just doesn't see this yet in himself. He still believes what everyone else has told him he is instead of believing in himself which is understandable if you stand back and think about it in these terms.
This made me a little teary. I have had a few conversations with his mother where she's told me about how it was for him growing up, and how frustrated he has always been with himself. She's never found a solution to it but has a lot of hopes for him. She says I am good for him because I take him out of his comfort zone. But really, he has done all of the hard work. I do believe in him and his potential, and thanks to your input I will make sure he knows it too. lol
But there comes a time when you try to do this enough with other people......and all you get is mocking, ridicule and irritation in some form or another, that it's just easier to live without and a less painful alternative than to continue to try just to be shot down again. It's not a very good compromise in fact....it's a horrible one to have to make.
I confess I have been irritated by him at times, and I have let it show. His slowness at doing tasks sometimes, his inability to think ahead. We have a joke between us that because I like to plan, I get to make all the arrangements for things like trips away - but I make sure he gets a say in all of the decision making. It used to be I would always make the suggestions too, but lately he has started coming up with his own ideas which has been lovely. Other things, I try and find a work around - he has developed some little obsessive compulsive ways, presumably to provide some sort of structure or routine he can stick to which enables him to bypass the myriad of thoughts in his head? Anyway, I step back and accept those quirks but at the same time I don't bow to them - if he wants his dinner to go cold because he needs to put everything away first, and insists on only carrying one thing at a time into the other room, then that is his look-out. I will neither wait or nag him.
As an aside - may I ask how the condition may impact the following: learning to drive, or going grocery shopping? I'd be curious as to your thoughts before I explain what I have noticed with my partner.
He's ready to be defensive out of protection his feelings surrounding these things which have been hurt just one too many times before.
Yes, he is very quick to be defensive when situations arise where he either clams up entirely or starts talking and the words aren't making sense. I will learn how to be gentle with him.
the best way to approach him is by asking questions and simply not making assumptions to start with.
As mentioned above, this revelation is quite new to me (and I am so thankful to have found it). We are a year in, and I have made a lot of assumptions. I'm sorry for that, and I am starting to understand his frustration. I plan to ask questions where I am able instead of jumping to conclusions.
Between the two of you....one of you needs to understand what' s happening or you both will be lost. Try not to take these personally and move right past to what is probably more accurately the case with him.
I am very persistent and very stubborn which will serve me well in this. My main worry is that if he hits one of my major insecurities, which has happened, then I am not sure how well equipped I will be to utilise these tools you are giving me. Hopefully I will be able to override my emotional side to some extent.
I am willing to read and research (I love doing that anyway so it's hardly a chore) to come to a better understanding. I am hoping it will enable us to put some things into place and see if they work before I actually bring up my suspicions about what is going on with him. One thing that did make me smile, was at the end of the conversation we had when I told him what had dawned on me, is the look of relief on his face. He told me it felt like someone finally, finally was making sense of it. <3
* to confirm - "off limits at
Submitted by roseamongstthorns on
* to confirm - "off limits at any other time" - that one game, "our game", not gaming in general. I'd never dream of dictating to him in that way.
Yes...This Was Such a Great Idea
Submitted by kellyj on
Joining him in something like gaming is a way to participate with him in something that he loves and you both can enjoy. My wife and I love to play Backgammon together and this alone has been on or our "things" that we always find enjoyment doing together and being able to talk and connect at the same time. I guess you'd say that this is a win/win. I would try and find as many of those as possible even if it's a compromise to something that would be your first pick instead. Excellent. That works both way of course.
Shot Gun Interpretation
Submitted by kellyj on
So I don't know where the crossover with the hyper focus is. Does he love it because it allows him to hyper focus? Both. He loves gaming because he's good at it. Having something that you are good at and successful in doing is rewarding for everyone. For me, having something I was good at was essential to my self esteem. I was lucky enough to be born with artistic talent so there's one I didn't have to try very hard to take ownership of. The second was with sports which I was not initially gifted or talented at, but after years of doing it....I became good at it. The third was in my job which is both creative and artistic...combined with years of doing it....it too became added to the list. If I'm depressed or feeling low in self worth....any of these things will make me feel better about myself and I have them to fall back on anytime because I was able to take ownership of these too along the way. If these things were not available to me in my arsenal of defense to counter the effects of ADHD and low self worth.....I don't know where I would be or what I would do now. I would have found something anyway and would have gravitated to that.
As an aside - may I ask how the condition may impact the following: learning to drive, or going grocery shopping? I'd be curious as to your thoughts before I explain what I have noticed with my partner. Here we go.....another one of those anomalies that I can't account for. I was the first one in line on my 16 birthday for a drivers license. I'd have to say I'm a great driver...in fact....I use to drag race when I was younger and am currently building another race car to do some more. (I miss it) Talk about adrenalin rush...get out of town! But... I also did some ski racing and anything time I can be propelled in any manner of speaking to high speeds I'm there! I also ride a motorcycle with some ex track racers ( which I wouldn't dream of trying to keep up with ) but....I've managed to survive so far in doing a lot of traveling at excess speeds of 120mph or more in a couple of situations and this is not something you can do if you can't drive very well. I don't know why or how or if there is any connection to ADHD positively or negatively. I can tell you that because of my hearing loss.....my visual acuity is very high along with my peripheral vision. I also have very good reflexes and good innate balance. But more than anything...I have great to excellent SA....(situational awareness) and SO... (spacial orientation) which might be another way to say intuition. Combine this with hyper focus and I'm pretty sharp and frosty when it comes to doing things like I mentioned.
However!!!!!!!! If I'm in the car and talking with someone at the same time...I've been known to run red lights...but here's the interesting part. I do this because I am paying absolute attention to where I am and where the other cars are not the traffic signal. In other words....I'm paying attention to the thing that matters most which is not getting in an accident or being killed. The worst thing that will happen if you run a red light if you doing everything else right is get a traffic ticket. I know this sounds almost like an excuse for doing it but.....it really is true and the reasons for it. I don't want a ticket either and I'm not careless. * It that were the case...I wouldn't be alive right now and I haven't been in an accident since I was in my late twenties where I was rear ended by another driver. Strange but true??
And.....I'm totally into ergonomics and efficiency....another strange but true. I can grocery shop and get in and out of a store in record time. I've got my stores dialed in where I go right to the place where everything is...in the shortest distance between two points and end up at the checkout counter in one pass through???? I don't now where that comes from in having ADHD? But....that came from practice and how I think in terms of efficiency. I'm also very efficient with the work I do including; good at puzzles, chess, cards, backgammon and strategy games. I guess grocery shopping is a strategic activity. lol
Anyway....the things you are sorry about are not your fault or his. The thing you said about showing great signs of relief are exactly how feel when I finally get someone to understand that I'm not doing these things on purpose or to be intentionally annoying or disrespectful. More than anything.... I don't want people to say they're sorry as much as saying "I understand" and I really know that they do. That's what you can do to make up for anything you didn't know before in a way to show that you do now. That's all I could ever ask for.
J
Verbal processor here. :)
Submitted by ADHDMomof2 on
Oh, yeah, I'm a verbal processor as well. Melissa Orlov mentioned in one of her books how her husband would actually start in the middle of a conversation speaking aloud what he thought he had spoken aloud to begin with-so I guess it works in both directions. I am guilty of that as well. My husband doesn't enjoy the fact I must verbally process to get to the point. He also hates that I have to verbally navigate to the answer; to him it appears that I am lying-a major source of contention in our relationship. It's hard for me to say "yes" or "no" to a question without verbally processing my way there. I have to work backwards to the "yes" or "no," which can also make it seem like I am lying. To complicate matters, I sometimes contradict myself as my working memory fades in and out. It is super annoying to me, but to my husband makes it seem like I don't want to be honest.
ADHD Mom of 2
Oh Yeah!! Do You....
Submitted by kellyj on
notice how this gets tied into your memory too? Not that often for me but yes..now and then. More confusion for everyone else. Is it Real or is it Memorex??
And what's up with that deductive reasoning working backwards to find the answer thing? I think I should have been a private detective! I also read magazines starting from the back and working forward to the front. How ass backwards is that? lol
and speaking of.......do you know how this ties into the need to see everything (physical object) out in front of you in order to keep track of them? I finally realized where the clutter comes from. I used to never lose track of my things until I lived with my wife (who is a neat freak.....from my perspective lol ) but she really is to the point that she puts things away even before she is done using them and admits how annoying she is to herself when she does this.lol Can you imagine where that leaves me? I can't find anything anymore. All my stashes are gone and things are actually in drawers which means......they effectively don't exist. Ooohh...boy!!
J
Hmm, does this mean I have
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
Hmm, does this mean I have ADD, also, or is it something else? Because I'm the one in the family who generally knows where to find things but my organizational style is to leave things out if I want to keep track of them. When my husband straightens up, he puts things places but doesn't remember where.
That's a Problem
Submitted by kellyj on
you and I both share and that I can relate with. ( moving our things ) I told my wife that what she does is equivalent to moving the furniture around on a daily basis for a blind person! lol
J
I'm not tidy but I do have a
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
I'm not tidy but I do have a very sharp memory. So I might leave things out but if they're important, I almost always remember where I put them. But that doesn't help if they get moved by someone else who DOESN'T remember where he put them. So having respect for the other person's system is important.
Rosered...You're Preaching to the Choir! lol
Submitted by kellyj on
The problem is for me....I keep forgetting how bad my short term memory is compared to my long term memory. Is that kind of like an "oxy-moron?" lol
j
I have learned through
Submitted by jthall on
I have learned through experience . . . never put an item "somewhere safe."
"Somewhere safe" means I will never find it again.
externalizing life
Submitted by ADHDMomof2 on
Hi J-
That's hilarious! I know what you mean about not knowing whether your memories are real or fabricated. They feel the same, either way!
I have found that the more I declutter my house by bringing things to Goodwill, as well as not bringing in more clutter into my home, the less I rely on leaving things out to cue my memory. This has been a process years in the making, so I'm not bragging, believe me ;) !
However, I still must leave some things out so I can see them, but with fewer belongings, they stand out more.
When I was a kid, my ADHD mom used to write notes to herself with crazy highlighting and scotch-taped 800 notes to the dashboard of her car. She was not, and is not on medication, but has been diagnosed. I used to think "What is wrong with her?" As an adult, I appreciate how brilliantly she externalized what she needed to remember. She never missed appointments. I guess it was those silly notes. The funniest part (at least to me) is that she never understood that a highlighter is designed to underscore the important words. She highlighted almost all of the words, because as a person with ADHD, everything is equally important. And we wonder why we have issues prioritizing.
ADHDMomof2
ADHDMomof2
"Equally Important"....Not Necessarily Shiny
Submitted by kellyj on
I'm going to put that one into my permanent log upstairs! (in my head ) Thanks for that one. Not everything is shiny.....we're not fish, you know? lol
The real problem that I faced with my wife was when she moved in with me was she un-did a lifetime of quirky weird ways that I had successfully learned to manage my ADHD before I even knew I had it. Your story of your Mom made me think of this. I'm still pretty lost without them and it's like starting over from scratch. Not a bad thing really except she still doesn't understand this to the point I'm gritting my teeth and trying hard not to say anything. "Yes dear" is working fine right now..... and if ain't broken, no need to fix it at the moment. I'm saving that one for another day after I get more things under control like you. Still working on it;)
J
Oh, those days before diagnosis and treament
Submitted by ADHDMomof2 on
I have been remembering them too, this week. I've been wondering why I still don't use some of those old coping skills that worked when I couldn't focus, just like my mom's mural of reminders helped (and still helps) her.
I used to self-medicate by exercising every 10 minutes while doing my homework. This was years before I was diagnosed, and I had no idea why I needed to "get my energy out." I kept running down to the basement and jumping on a little trampoline. Get a little focus, and go back to work! I exercise regularly, but in the evening, why don't I do some pushups or squats when I can't focus? Of course, I have to strike a balance so I can fall asleep, but not all coping mechanisms from B.M. (before medication; could have chosen another acronym, but it's getting to be that time of the night; lol) were ineffectual or counter productive.
Sorry to hear those old coping mechanisms aren't flying at home. That may improve when you feel more in control of your symptoms; I agree with that assessment. My husband seems to accept my coping skills a lot better than he used to and doesn't judge me as often, which is nice.
New Coping Skills vs Old Ones
Submitted by kellyj on
The reason the old coping skill don't work was also part of a different problem....clutter. But the thing is....I hate clutter as much as my wife! We get along well in deciding how we want things......I'm just terrible at keeping it that way. I use to stick notes and phone numbers on the side of the fridge......the fridge WAS my filing system forever.....suddenly......my address book ended up in a box with all my other important scraps of paper!! Now....I have a box of scraps. Crap!! lol
The thing is.....there are better ways:)
J
When life was simpler.....
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
ADHD H would keep a small slip of paper in his wallet with his To Do list. On it he'd list important things and some "like to do" things.
that worked in the "old days" when life was so much simpler and he didn't have adult responsibilities. All he had was HIMSELF....and his wants.
Once we were married I was annoyed that he never wrote down OUR stuff or things that I would want done or things for the kids or my birthday or anything outside of his self-centered self. He'd write down his golf tee time, and his work out schedule, and any thing HE WANTED.
Now that life is 21st century and much more complicated, he doesn't do the list much anymore....just occasionally.. But it still only lists HIS stuff for HIMSELF.
It's always all about HIM
It Doesn't Sound Like....
Submitted by kellyj on
ADHD or your H's filing system is the problem? "It's always all about HIM" is not a symptom of ADHD...this much I am sure about. Just say'in:)
J
I disagree J
Submitted by Geese on
I understand what you are saying, Geese, and J, too.
Submitted by ADHDMomof2 on
Geese,
The time-management piece can ABSOLUTELY make it appear like you don't care. So many times in my life, I have opted out of simple courtesies such as sending a card, because I cannot manage my time well enough to do so. This also applies to calling friends, spending time with the people I love. Oh, the list is endless, and it brings me neither pride nor life satisfaction. I desperately WANT to be like those people whom I admire, who always have it together and make the people around them feel good.
I get overwhelmed when TOO MUCH is on the docket, even if it's fun. It generally means I will PAY FOR IT, later, in the form of sleep-deprivation because I have chores to do, and the resulting stress. An exception to this was a recent trip to Disney with my husband and kids. I had but ONE task to focus on-having fun and relaxing. Between my husband and I, we had planned out EVERYTHING, so our JOB was to relax. No laundry, no cooking, no cleaning, no time-management conflicts.
As far as the husband who prioritizes workouts and tee-times is concerned, I wonder whether or not his wife (I can't remember who wrote it, shockingly) has assertively, and by this, I mean neither passive-aggressively nor aggressively expressed these sentiments. I wonder because many women I know have a hard time being appropriately assertive, and there are plenty of husbands who would just as soon leave most of the boring tasks, such as planning, to the wife-and that's what they do. Then, their wives are AFRAID to leave these responsibilities to their poor "helpless" husband, but also because they want the tasks done "right." This is not uniquely a problem for those in ADHD marriages; we all have friends who complain that if they died, their spouse would not have a clue how to manage life or their children. I am not blaming her for the issues, but we all have our ways of contributing to our own misery at times. Even so, this husband's ADHD makes him even more blind to how he is poorly prioritizing and how his choices are centered around him rather than his family.
J- I also understand what you are saying. We don't MEAN to be this way. ADHD doesn't make one inherently selfish, even if the posters on this site have spouses who contradict this. My ADHD son might be careless, forgetful, messy, and time-challenged, but he is THE KINDEST person whom I have ever met. He has a heart of gold. He means well. He thinks of others, even though his ADHD might make him APPEAR thoughtless. He leaves his belongings everywhere, which could be construed as inconsiderate. It's his ADHD. He will pick up when prompted. He won't do it efficiently or linearly, but it gets done. He doesn't automatically think to help out with the house like my daughter, but he will do it. His brain doesn't naturally work that way. He is blind to messiness. Yet, this is a child who saw a story about homeless children on T.V. and immediately brought us money from his piggy bank to help them (we did). He always thinks about how other people feel, and notices when people exhibit exceptional character. He openly strives to be like that. He's empathetic. He is sensitive.
I guess what I am saying is that we with ADHD are complex and contradictory, so you could argue either side of this. Our symptoms don't show our heart, but it is up to us to try each day to get closer to our intentions, and to see how much better we can be.
You Win For Best Description Ever ADHDMOMOF2 !!
Submitted by kellyj on
Let me address what you said one thing at a time..before I forget to mention first....it must be great to watch your son to see yourself in him. I'd say that this was me, and at the core of my personality.....is still me to this day ( and why would that change if you think about it? People don't really change all that much at their core unless something really dramatic or tragic happens to them ie: prolonged abuse of some kind. Anyway....I think the description of your son is a really good one to start with in order to make the distinctions you made even for an adult when looking at the behaviors and the reasons for it. I think the only problem for most people is seeing this as you can in your son at his age and overlooking this behavior as being like any child at that age.....somewhat normal and to be expected in other words ( for a child)
That's the beginning of the problem I think because having ADHD and these behaviors are not from being childish even when they appear when you are a child. I can easily see the confusion right off the bat. You could say this another way......if these things were not an issue for us.....we wouldn't do them later on when we are adults. That might be an easier way to see this too? You see this....I see this....but we have ADHD. It's very easy for us to understand since...we're the ones with the issues surrounding things that we struggle with or can't do AS WELL as most people do once we''re older. That's why it stands out. What I still don't understand it......why is this concept so hard to apply for other people ONCE they understand the concept? Why is so difficult to modify or change the expectation to fit what is possible instead of what is not possible for us without it being a blank check or an excuse? That's at the core of where the problem is for my wife if you were wondering.
I am...just like your son....the most willing and obliging person on the planet in my ability to try anything anyone wants or in modifying my expectations to meet theirs as anyone I know.....to a fault ( just like my mother...unfortunately for me in my past ) to the point of giving up TOO much instead of not giving enough in this one way. That is my problem more often than not. And too the point.....who wouldn't like this aspect about someone who will go along with most anything you want and not requiring the other person to compromise in just about anything. I'm not a finicky, particular or fussy person under most circumstance and take things as they come with little or no complaint....no complaint because I don't care. I'll eat anything no matter how it's prepared. Forget to add things onto my order or not cooked exactly right...so what? I'll eat it anyway and it doesn't bother me. No complaint. Cut me off when driving or make a stupid driving error where I have to slam my breaks on? Oh well.....people do that. No road rage or even get flustered. I brought this up from what I mentioned in that I'm a really good and defensive driver...better than most people. You'd think that would put me in a position to be self righteous and demanding of other people in this way to be just like me....especially in order to compensate for all the things I already know I'm poor at in a way.........here's my chance to get even, kind of way. Bullshit!! I don't care!! It doesn't bother me....it's what people do. I focus on them so they won't hit me. That's my only expectation of them.......that they will if I'm not looking out for them. But being the way I described IS being kind of Narcissistic which was another one my father's issues again (road rage)...very predictable according to the model.
side note: since I ride a motorcycle and I value my life.....I have adopted one simply and easy strategy that take everything into consideration every time I leave my house. I literally pretend that I am invisible and no one can see me. I modified my expectation of others down to "0". And guess what? I'm alive and have never been in an accident because of it. I've had to dodge, emergency maneuver, swerve and be on hyperventilate guard 100% of the time in order to play this out as if it were real because my life depends on it. I expect everyone is out to get me and trying to kill me..... plus, on top of the fact that they can't see me too. I've modified my expectation of them without any expectation on my part what so ever. As my father once said to me "it doesn't really matter who has the right of way if you're dead?" Even though his expectation was that everyone be like him and would get angry when they didn't abide by his expectation of them.....and I don't. I don't because there is no expectation in this one case......and without expectation...there can be no demands, no self righteousness and no complaints or anger. All you can ask for is for a person to try not and kill you when I ride my bike but.....as we all know, people still make mistakes. None of this is relevant if you are dead anyway as my father so aptly commented in his logic to me.
But here's the deal......I did this for myself 100% in a self serving way because I don't want to die!!!! I didn't do this for anyone else's benefit at all. No one else has to do anything different for me to do this and the benefits go directly to me ie: not to be kill or permanently maimed for life!
So I don't get it??? 'Then why.....when it is in everyone else's benefit in the exact same way as I just described ....and saying everyone else's benefit meaning...of no benefit what to us what so ever for us with ADHD.....to simply change or modify the expectation of us for certain things (only) and do the same thing that I do when riding my motorcycle. How hard is this concept to understand or get across? Especially when you have a completely willing participant who is telling you up front that they have no conflict or disagreement with the request (or demands) that are being made. NONE!!! There is no issue or conflict with this out side of simply..."I don't like that." What kind of rational, logical argument can you make to "I don't like that?" In more choice moments in my past when I've feeling picked on or defensive my comments have been more like "aren't we special? And who's this we...you have a turd in your pocket? Aren't you being a little hypocrite and self righteous yourself?" (doing this as means to mirror or model her own behavior....seemingly to me....back to her in order to teach her a lesson or to show her how it feels to be on he other side in a completely in-effective and passive aggressive way ) that does appear more Narcissistic....like the road rage example....the punisher or persecutor. Judge, jury and executioner all rolled into one person who decides what rules have been violated and what the punishment should be based of course.....solely on themselves. Both behaviors appear to me as selfishness.
Okay then.....now what? My question to my wife (in those choice past moments of my own anger is) So what? I don't like a lot of things but I don't get mad and angry about it, including things that you do that I don't like and probably.....half of them you have never even heard before because I'm not or don't want to be like you in that way. I'm not a hypocrite like you! If you're going to talk the talk....you better walk the walk and do things perfectly if you expect that from others? I can think of many things I do much better than you and that you fail at consistently that I want and affect me negatively. If you can't say you are perfect in all things then that kind of makes you look pretty selfish and self serving from where I'm standing. Know what I mean?"
And yet there is some truth to this statement even though I haven't done this for a long time since it was always a fight when this happened. I felt picked on so I picked a fight. This is how it goes. Understandably from all side here now saying.
So I still can't rap my head around this in order to try and explain this kind of behavior coming from other people including my wife at times. And when pushed for an answer.......getting it fired back in my face in the form of projection? If she would say...." I'm an unreasonable person and I want what I want." That I do understand because that's what it looks like to me....and of course.....this is the person that I see when I say the things I have in the past. That is my audience so to speak.
All I'm looking for is a simple rational and reasonable explanation or answer to this question nothing more. If I can understand this even if it happens....I can see it for what it is and move on...no problem. But as I am......if I can't see it.....then it doesn't exist. I need to see it to understand it. And since I'm not like this in most ways in my thinking....I cannot predict it, see it or understand it in order to avoid it and not be killed by it (like my motorcycle example ) except....in this case, the cars are invisible too and they keep running into me. I get a little tired of that after a while....know what I mean? lol
If......"I don't like it" is the only argument for anyone to make as a means to getting things they want or to justify getting angry especially when there is no conflict in the request in the first place?" It all boils down to exactly what I just said.....an inability to modify or adjust the expectation around what is possible instead of digging in and insisting things be exactly the way you want them to be. That seems childish to me not the other way around. Love it or leave it but don't punish the thing because you don't like it to be that way.
Like my therapist said once....." If a baby is crying and you don't like the sound....are you going to pick it up with a pitch fork and throw it into the fire?" Exactly?? I don't get it!
J
An Example....To Illustrate Here
Submitted by kellyj on
Recently.....my wife voiced a complaint. Actually....several all at once in rapid concession out of contest to each other....each involving separate issues. One...we found after I asked her about why she was irritated....was from an assumption she made incorrectly. Okay...no problem....problem solved and assumption answered in a way that was easy for both of us to understand....no harm, no foul. Next....the other two are things we have talked about repeatedly and no new information given outside of...."stop doing this thing" which came out in the form of a command or demand and spoken with an imperious tone and repeated in it's entire form a though I had never heard it before.
Okay....I asked her to do me a favor. I asked that she change the tone, change it too a form or a request or reminder instead of a demand. Confusion and projection on her part.
Okay....do you understand the difference between a "demand" and a "request?" Not really but was still listening...I told her a "demand" implies that it be followed implicitly and to the letter and a request is asking for the person to do something that you want. Her immediate reply was...." well, you could say No to a request." Busted.
Okay.....what if we've already talked about this one thing and you and I both know that it in one of the areas I'm working on and you know why that is difficult for me to do perfectly consistently 100% time You also know that it's something that might take years if ever to not do it for a number of reasons which mean....I'l never probably be able to completely stop doing it even though you've seen me change dramatically in this already and I don't need to be brow beaten every time you mention it plus.......the expectation that come from a demand versus a request is not there. It allows for something in between like a compromise. the spiraling begins! projection, deferring digging in.....
Okay....do you understand that if you have an expectation of me that I cannot live up to it forces me into a corner....I have one of two options...to say yes with the full knowledge that I won't be able to do this thing and there fore....is a set up. Or two......to say No which implies a refusal on my part which is not true. I am more than willing to keep trying to do my best since I already know it's something you want and if you never explained the full version of this to me again...I will not understand what it is you want any better and more clearly than I already do now. It tells me nothing knew but seems like you are just venting you feeling onto me which only makes me resist you and not want to do this thing in the first place.
My point I was trying to get her to see in that moment was that her expectation was the problem not the request....and that her attitude was if I had refused her in the first place because she was seeing this as a demand instead of request. Her fear was that I might say No *which never happens in this case), so she gave me an ultimatum that put me into a corner where I only had one of two options and one of those options....was the very one she feared from me.
So this went pretty well all things considered until.....I finally said....Okay...if you don't do this in the way I'm going to feel put in a corner which only makes it more difficult for me because of my issues with defensiveness and resistance to you if you do it that way with only 2 options instead of finding something in between which is a compromise which....I'm more than happy in discussing what that might be....in other words.....from a request standpoint which open up something in the middle between Yes and No.....a third, fourth, fifth options that we can agree on together....that would be a win/win, don't you think. The answer she gave is the probelm....
She said....."It doesn't matter what the reason it is for doing it.....I don't want you to do it because.......list of things as to why she doesn't like it that all had to do with her. Fundamentally.....because I don't like it.
So I said "so if you want me to stop and I'm telling you that what you are doing is hitting up against my defensiveness in a way that makes me want to resist you (internally) I'm telling you now that we know all the reasons for this and you don't seem not to understand that part... wouldn't it serve your best interest to say it in a form of request or reminder instead of a demand for all the reasons I just said. Why wouldn't you do that instead if it's only going to get you what you want faster. In this case.....it serves you the same either way but it makes a difference in my ability to give you what you want?"
To sum this up and in every case when I try and ask her to give me help in a calm and rational way the same I just did...saying, nicely without attitude or tone. Her answer consistently to me is "No".....I will not do what you want...seemingly still standing on her original position that this was a demand in the first place and she needed to do it this way (her rational) because I might say No to her even though that has never happened before ( me saying No or refusing ever ) To the point of apology in almost every cases most times when I'm called on it. Saying....no defense, no refusal and apology consistently and saying thanks for the reminder even when it isn't one.
The only request I've made of her at this point is to please just change your wording to a request which only makes this more palitable for me and motivates me to do what you want instead of de-motivating me for all the reasons that you say you understand and only starts the feelings of resentment from starting in the first place.
and answer is consistently No.....I don't think I should have to do this and then starts spiraling to all the reasons that support this completely illogical stance that makes absolutely no sense what so ever. Or at least to me? It's not a big request to ask and again....I've never refused he even once in these things?
It appears as if I've done something that I haven't done ( a projection ) in her head.....which validates her reason for having to make this a demand out of the fear that I will say No which is intolerable...in a sense unacceptable to her because she NEEDS this done this one and only one way and cannot compromise to it......and there fore....guilty as charged and must be punished by verbal retribution and reiteration of the demand or command again as if I never heard it before?
Oh before I forget....the thing I do is to pick up her reading glasses thinking their mine and walk off with them because they are identical aside from the power. My bad is to not mark them in a way to tell them apart but when this happens.....I not in a place to do this until later and I forget. What I need is simply to be reminded of marking them instead of what we just went through since it was already mentioned. But....this scenario is not out of context to anything like this but not all of them are related to ADHD . Some things are just things that coupes go through in navigating circumstance like the misunderstanding an assumption on my wife's part. I've stopped getting angry over any of this but.....when I ask her for a small request not to speak in an imperious way and ask me instead of demanding. No way. She openly and flat out refuses and says No....I will not help you or do what you ask since you won't do what I want. Bottom line. All or nothing. Black and white.
This is when I stop....don't get mad.....but walk away and ignore her when she flat out refuses any time I ask her to "help me help you." It makes no logical sense? There is no anger, no passive aggressiveness or resentment that I display...at all. I've completely stopped and it's been quite a while ( 10 months without ) however.....her behavior has been consistently the same whether this is there or not going back now since she first moved in with me (3 years ago) No difference. I don't get it? The refusal part that is.
J
The Answer to My Own Question
Submitted by kellyj on
It's ironic that this post started out about processing. I woke up this morning and spontaneously the answer to what I was looking for popped into my head. Here you go......the end of the line in my processing all the things I just said. If there is one benefit or positive side to my writing my long winded post here in this forum.... also saying....I'm sorry for that, I've aware of it but it was seemingly helping me more than everyone else I think at times but not sure until recently what that reason was. For me it's been less about getting things off my chest but as means to help me discover answers instead. I do realize this now so I can at least say that this was the reason for it.
Anyway....the answer or invisible thing that I've been fighting up against in my wife (or her logic ) is self righteousness. it's funny how all of that can get reduced down to just one word. I do love the power of words for that reason since....the right ones leave no room for doubt when applied correctly.
Now I can see something that I understand both....from being that way myself at times and knowing what it feels like to be on the other side of it. It gives me a better reason to understand why......not to be this way myself. That's the bottom line. Self righteousness fighting against self righteousness is a losing battle and one to avoid at all costs.
That's what I was saying about needing to see it so I can avoid it.......avoiding it in this case means.....Not being this way my self. Period! If my wife chooses to be this way.....it now has a face I can recognize and gives me a very good reason....not to entertain that face when it shows itself. Nothing good will come of it so I am just leave that one alone when I see again plus.....no need to be upset or angry at it and in this case......I don't have to like it either:)
That's the answer I was looking for. I need to take a break now (ha ha) this has been exhausting! lol
Take care and thanks for helping make yet......another discovery that will be extremely helpful in the future in a more positive way by staying true to myself and things that I said here that I believe in.
But first......I need to take that break
J
The Truth....
Submitted by kellyj on
last night, my wife did this again and also admitted....."I'm venting." It was the truth and the answer. Mystery solved....part two below...
This is Confusing ??? Geese
Submitted by kellyj on
My mother (bless her soul) use to say/teach me as a young child " if you want to have friends, you need to be a friend." She also was BIG on manners, courtesy, politeness and etiquette.....she would also say repeatedly (ad nauseam)" manners are not for you, they are for everyone else." I can still here these words in my head since (being BIG on these things ) meant....she taught them at home and required us to behave this way even in our own family. My mother was also a very gracious host anytime someone came to our home including my friends growing up. For a woman who grew up in a rural, isolated area with very few friends of her own when she was young with parents who also came from rural beginnings with little social contacts themselves.....you would have thought, after meeting my mother....that she was a debutante instead for a modest farm girl from meager beginnings. "Please" and "thank you" were the first words required out of our mouths at anytime we spoke without fail...."Thank you letters", "RSVP's" (whether required or not),"return gifts" of appreciation( or any other kind of the more "prescribed social reciprocation" and in general, (formal) respectful behavior as defined by the rules of good manners and social etiquette were engrained into my daily existence at home or anywhere else I went as a child out socially with my parents. ( ad nauseam )
Despite my mothers many flaws as a person just like anyone else.....she was "flawless" in these ways herself and it showed by how other people responded to her and gravitated to her as well because she had a "gift" in the art of "how to be giving" and made others feel welcomed and respected at all times. Needless to say....I cannot ever recall anyone who did not come to me and say how "really nice" my mother was because it was true. These things were not an act or air she put on for other people and there was no "Jeckel and Hyde"...no "back stabbing","pettiness" or "boorishness" in her behavior ever even behind closed doors. In other words " she talked the talk...and walked the walk" at all times 24/7. What she lacked was self esteem. She also (now almost 100% positively saying ) had undiagnosed ADHD which is exactly where I get it from.
The downside to this for my mother came from a more dysfunctional aspect of her inability to give these things to herself out or more neurotic/compulsive need to be this way and to defer herself "chronically" ( or in pathologic way) along with her own wants and needs by being in an unhealthy, co-dependent relationship to my father who was a pretty classic Narcissist by most means you could measure him even though he was "ethical","highly responsible" and bound by "duty" which also included many of the same qualities my mother had but for a different reason. He could be "charming" if he needed to be to get what he wanted from other people however, it was not genuine ( he was Dr Jeckel and Mr Hyde) and he could be extremely petty, boorish, self serving and was also very "demanding" and very "high maintenance" emotionally since he needed to be fed at all times with "narcissistic food" meaning.....he needed others to show him "respect", "admiration" and "acknowledgement of his status and achievements". With that....an over blown sense of anything he did for anyone else and was easily hurt or felt disrespected by other other who did not go out of their way thank him and stoke him for anything even the most stingy and tightly held gifts that were mostly rare and always with strings attached.......all with predictable and chronic/pathological constant basis all the time that came with the classic "sense of entitlement to these things" which were required the same as we require food to stay alive......which he got through (and from) my mother by being with her (especially socially) because fundamentally....he didn't own these things himself and so took, demanded and fed off these same qualities in other people but did nothing in the way to return them to anyone else.
He also didn't have any friends or ADHD. He also envious of my mother since she had so many friends and was jealous of them at the same time which came through in a very "un-welcoming" way to other people.
Between the two ( my mother or father ) I'm the male version of my mother in everyway and am nothing like my father in the ways I just described. I also have (and have had) many friends including a core group since I was as young as 5 and 6 years old. And I still maintain these friendships to this day. Out of this group.....3 of these male friends have also got ADHD appear happily married with children ( for twenty years or more ) which I only recently discovered after I was diagnosed myself as it was never a topic for discussion until that time. I was kind of shocked and pleasantly surprised at the same.....
But to make the point here.....I also have ADHD.
So where is the confusion??? I clearly see my two parents...their co-dependent dysfunction and each ones issues indevidually (including my own which I got from my mother) and which ones had ADHD and which one didn't. And....at the very least in my case the two with ADHD had friends and the Narcissist had none.
I could say something similar about my ADHD male friends as well even though I will not argue that in a more accurate way (myself included)....at times appear aloof, self absorbed and disconnected especially if any of us are in social situations where tend to wander off from the herd and mill around by ourselves at times and then come back when we're done hyper focusing on the scenery and re-join the pack (so to speak). but this has nothing to do with being selfish or even appearing selfish either to us ( each other ) or anyone else for that matter? A little eccentric or quirky yes......but most people an even some have found that aspect of me even endearing and attractive in it's own kind of (individualistic or iconoclastic way) saying straight up.....people have commented on this in a more favorable and not negative way more often than not about this aspect of my personality.
So the bottom line here in my thinking and to what you said is that there is a HUGE and unmistakable difference in appearing self-centered or self-absored at times in a more scattered inconsistent way as one net effect of having ADHD which has nothing to do with "everything being always about us" and truly being selfish and self serving in a chronic/pathological/predictable/consistent way (like the example of my father) Who could possible find this attractive or want to be with or around someone like this or have them as a friend? ( or like my father in my example). What possible benefit would a person have in being with a person who only takes and give nothing in return? I can't see even one benefit myself if you were wondering? But I'm not like this and neither are my friends or I wouldn't have any or want them to be my friend in the first place.
This is why your comment...." It's why so few adhd people have friends " makes no sense to me based on what I just said and from my own experience? Can you try and connect appearing self-centered (at sporadic times) .......suffering......and actually being self centered (as a core personality trait ie;pathology) and your comment about not having friends a little better for me since I'm obviously have trouble understanding this part of what you said?
J
Hey Geese....Coming Back Here For You
Submitted by kellyj on
with some answers that might help for the future. And stressing why it is so important not to tell yourself your a loser for your ADHD symptoms. This entire discussion on my end wasn't about my ADHD in one sense....but I did recognize a behavior in my wife that was causing both of us a problem that did not makes sense for good reason. As much as I could recognize the parts that I own (my ADHD parts) I could clearly see the parts in my wife that were not mine but remarkably similar because they were both come from different forms of PTSD. Mine was reactivated over 5 years ago from events that happened to me and continued forward which accounts for my end. My wife is a different story which includes not wanting to see or talk about it....a specific type where this is painful for her compared to mine which is a little different. My ADHD symptoms only exacerbate hers even more.
For you now if you read this.....you are only forcing someone to suffer if you not doing things to improve them which in your case you are. From the sound of it....diligently and trying hard. This doesn't make you a loser. The only thing you need to change is your attitude about yourself and the beating yourself up part and trying to stay positive in the meantime but still being sympathetic to your wife for the stress you cause her....sympathy for her not yourself.
In my case....I needed to be more empathetic but I also needed to understand what the problem was so I could be that more for her. More than you in this case....I wasn't missing either as much as just not seeing or understanding the problem in the first place. It's easy to get these things confused but the one that will not serve you is being too sympathetic for yourself. Forgiving would serve you more in that case for yourself and her at the same time. I hope this helps:)
J
OverWhelmedWife....May I Ask?
Submitted by kellyj on
I realized there was a question in my last response to you that was not fair to you without knowing exactly why I'm here (this time). The last (first time I came to the forum) I was trying to discover the source of my own anger since it was a contributing source for my wife's anger with me. I think I pretty much explained the true source of this in part....in this thread and the rest I've already managed to say in other posts I've made. I can't tell you how helpful coming here has proven to be in my ability to find it and then do something about it. I've been very successful to date in managing it ( it appears missing in action at this point ) and I don't foresee that being a problem anymore for my wife and I. The key for me was in finding exactly what it was and where it was coming from so I could see it in the first place. Once I did this....I was able to get right to the source and do something about it. (completely stop it )
This time I came back here again to see if I could understand just what was really at the source for my wife's anger..... now that mine is under control. We have talked about this enough to give me a better idea in a way to understand it...but of course....I can't go inside my wife in the same way I did for myself in order to see it in the same way. I think it's really difficult to sort out all of the legitimate frustrations and reasons why someone who is married to us would be angry and harbor resentment... in order to really know the source (as I'm calling it) at the bottom of the anger that a person might experience being with us....I think the only way for us to know this at this point is to here it straight up from that person themselves. Coming here this time has proven to be no different for me in my ability to do this since there are so many different topics that could lead to so many different causes. I really don't want to push my wife to have to tell me this since we are doing so well and there is no need to rock the boat so to speak...but I still sense her having to bite her tongue at times and that much is obvious to me. This in itself shows me how hard she is trying and I tell her this repeatedly to make sure she know how much I appreciate it ( that speaks volumes)...but it still doesn't tell me the source.
I do understand that you are struggling with your own anger right now and I only ask this as doing both my wife and I a huge favor if you be so willing to answer only one question in your own words..........
If you had to narrow down this source in yourself....or even choose 1 or 2 things (only please) between everything that you find completely intolerable about being married to your husband. I do get the impression that you probably already know the answer to this from your posts....but again, I do understand and you won't hurt my feeling at this time to speak honestly about your feelings. I know this is a sensitive area and if this is too much to ask I completely understand. Do not hesitate to say so and don't feel compelled to give me an answer.
My wife and I would benefit greatly if you would be so kind. I'm doing this for the sole reason I said and in an effort to improve our relationship and there is no hidden agenda on my end if there is any reservations in thinking this might be the case. I appreciate it.
Thanks
J
JJamieson....I just saw your question....
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
<<<<<<<
I realized there was a question in my last response to you that was not fair to you without knowing exactly why I'm here (this time). The last (first time I came to the forum) I was trying to discover the source of my own anger since it was a contributing source for my wife's anger with me. I think I pretty much explained the true source of this in part....in this thread and the rest I've already managed to say in other posts I've made. I can't tell you how helpful coming here has proven to be in my ability to find it and then do something about it. I've been very successful to date in managing it ( it appears missing in action at this point ) and I don't foresee that being a problem anymore for my wife and I. The key for me was in finding exactly what it was and where it was coming from so I could see it in the first place. Once I did this....I was able to get right to the source and do something about it. (completely stop it )
This time I came back here again to see if I could understand just what was really at the source for my wife's anger..... now that mine is under control. We have talked about this enough to give me a better idea in a way to understand it...but of course....I can't go inside my wife in the same way I did for myself in order to see it in the same way. I think it's really difficult to sort out all of the legitimate frustrations and reasons why someone who is married to us would be angry and harbor resentment... in order to really know the source (as I'm calling it) at the bottom of the anger that a person might experience being with us....I think the only way for us to know this at this point is to here it straight up from that person themselves. Coming here this time has proven to be no different for me in my ability to do this since there are so many different topics that could lead to so many different causes. I really don't want to push my wife to have to tell me this since we are doing so well and there is no need to rock the boat so to speak...but I still sense her having to bite her tongue at times and that much is obvious to me. This in itself shows me how hard she is trying and I tell her this repeatedly to make sure she know how much I appreciate it ( that speaks volumes)...but it still doesn't tell me the source.
I do understand that you are struggling with your own anger right now and I only ask this as doing both my wife and I a huge favor if you be so willing to answer only one question in your own words..........
********If you had to narrow down this source in yourself....or even choose 1 or 2 things (only please) between everything that you find completely intolerable about being married to your husband. I do get the impression that you probably already know the answer to this from your posts....but again, I do understand and you won't hurt my feeling at this time to speak honestly about your feelings. I know this is a sensitive area and if this is too much to ask I completely understand. Do not hesitate to say so and don't feel compelled to give me an answer.
My wife and I would benefit greatly if you would be so kind. I'm doing this for the sole reason I said and in an effort to improve our relationship and there is no hidden agenda on my end if there is any reservations in thinking this might be the case. I appreciate it.
Thanks
>>>>>
1) His temper....it is outrageous....it is over-the-top - raging - in public sometimes - scary - unreasonable - irrational (and if the anger is based on a misunderstanding or a wrong accusation, then I'm not given time to clarify.)
2) His immaturity ....which is probably linked to his temper in some ways, but even when he's not angry, his immaturity and self-focus is very off-putting.
As mentioned above by another person, people like H don't have many friends....they can't keep friends because they're too self-focused, annoying, late, etc.