On Tuesday my daughter had a very important accomplishment at school and was bursting to talk about it at the day's end (she is 11). My husband/her dad picked her up that day and was distracted by something else. He did not listen to what she was saying or treat it/her as his priority. Much like I have been, my daughter has been hurt by his inattention too many times. This time, she decided she would not speak to him. This lasted 3 days. She did not speak even a word no matter how hard my husband tried to get her to talk. I tried to stay out of it because past efforts have shown me that I can't improve their relationship. And honestly, I secretly admired her strength as the days went on. I think she taught me something.
So last night she forgave him, and while I am glad, this morning I tried to talk to him about why she did what she did. I explained how hurt she was and how we feel when he doesn't listen or prioritize us. I said that I want them to have a good relationship and I wanted him to understand what she was trying to tell him by not speaking to him for three days because next time she may not relent.
But he doesn't see it. In his mind he was justified and she is too sensitive/too emotional/holds a grudge too long. And I am not surprised, just disappointed as usual. He said he does not have ADHD and is not distracted. I am really just venting here, but what is it?? Total denial or a true inability to see himself clearly? What will it take? Losing his marriage and daughter? Because he is going to. And even when he does, I feel strongly that he will blame everyone else. It breaks my heart.
Just needed to vent I guess. Some days it is so hard to watch this play out. :'(
I am sorry to hear about your
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
I am sorry to hear about your husband's treatment of you and your daughter. I do not know the behavior's cause and I don't know whether your husband is in denial or really cannot see what he is doing and not doing. I do know that his behavior is incredibly hurtful. Your daughter's response to her dad might not have been particularly mature, but why should it be? She is 11. Your husband, in contrast, is an adult and it is reasonable to expect him to act like one.
Speaking generally, I think that some people with ADHD, such as my ex-husband, are emotionally stunted. Our daughters, now in their 20s, surpassed their dad in emotional functioning by the time they were in their teens. I think I have continued to grow emotionally during my adult years, including during our marriage. I think my ex-husband has regressed.
PI:
Submitted by vabeachgal on
PI:
I still have trouble calling you Poison Ivy because that's not how I view you.
Why do you suppose that is? I have seen the same situation with my ex husband. My son is 20 and my daughter is 23. They are both more mature and have better real world coping skills and better decision making abilities than my husband. They are fully evolved (age appropriate) and emotionally available. This realization was one of the deciding factors for me. I realized a few years ago that my children were more mature than their father. It was eye opening.
Is it brain wiring or a lifetime or maladaptive behavior? I am still shocked that behavior that is so hurtful is not recognized as hurtful. Why is it that "they" expect other people to be attentive to their emotional needs without any ability to reciprocate?
I teach now. Middle school. My day is full of children with ADD/ADHD diagnoses. All I can say is it starts young... this emotional stunting. Barkley says that ADHD children are developmentally 30% younger? Is that a correct quote? I sat in a meeting with a parent last week where the parent said the child was immature. Okay. Can we get the child a proper diagnosis and proper treatment? The child probably IS developmentally younger and hanging out with older peers exacerbates the problem. Chicken or egg? I don't know. Is it that the child can't respond or that so many people rush in to fill the gaps at such an early age that they don't fully develop? This particular child CAN'T and now WON'T do anything without a parent or peer assistance ( ie. copying papers) I have several students right now, who have received so much support that I worry about their ability to make it through high school let alone life after high school. Is this the background our partners had? Help and more help? No expectations and a culture of "what more can I do for you? "
I contrast this with situation with several friends who have ADHD who would never, ever consider using it as an excuse.
I guess you said it. I could never figure out if my ex husband could not see or chose not to because of denial. In fact, this board is full of people talking about denial. Is it denial or just cannot see? Cannot??? Won't or cannot? The eternal question.
Four months post divorce now. It's been a busy time. New job. Sold home. New home. New city. But it's been so much easier even though it's been difficult. It's very hard to make good decisions when you're angry or confused or hurt. Emotional stability is necessary for good life decisions. Is that tha paradox? So many of our partners with ADHD don't have emotional stability and therefore cannot make good decisions?
I'd welcome your input about post divorce life. Easier? More difficult? I don't feel lonely. I feel more at peace. I wish I had never invited crazy into my life. I wish I had confronted it earlier. Looking back, I wouldn't have handled things as I did. It was hard being in the middle of it. I did the best I could but I still beat myself up for not handling things better. Still. I think many of us wonder why we put up with it. Ironically, I don't think I had the perspective to handle it until I was out of it. Things, simple things, that used to seem so difficult, are now so very easy. Crazy, isn't it? Decide what you need to do and get on with it. Why was that so hard all of these years???? Oh. I had a partner who lied, couldn't keep his word or work a plan and constantly kept me off balance and overworked and under partnered.
All the comments here have
Submitted by 1Melody1 on
All the comments here have been so helpful to me. A reminder that I'm not overreacting or going crazy. Thank you.
VABeachGal, what you said about expecting their emotional needs attended to with no ability to reciprocate was dead on and so well put.
I have a question for you about your post as I am "in the middle of it" as you put it. What would you do differently looking back? That perspective would be so helpful to me. I want to leave... so much about that seems impossible with a child in the mix.
That last sentence.
Submitted by prairierose on
The proverbial frogs in boiling pots. We are so busy trying to hold on to stability, we don't adequately notice the constant undermining happening right under us. I have been sounding the alarm for years waiting for DH to get help. Why did I do this? I shouldn't have been waiting for things to get better, but with each child came more of everything, so I was very distracted by keeping everything stable and moving, focused on the kids and what they needed. Now, as things have come to a head, because as kids age they need more of different support from us as parents, it all has come to light.
ADHD folks, really are knocking themselves out. Most really are doing their very best. Outside of any co-morbidities, they are really trying. If they have RSD, they are at an even greater deficit, *actively* working against themselves. Of course, every marriage and relationship is an individual situation.
An ADHD marriage can be crazy-making for sure. Are there any options besides divorce? I need peace, and sleep, and consistency.
Those of us with ADHD kids need to find ways for them to have the strongest executive functions as possible. I don't want them to struggle as my DH is struggling.
I disagree that ADHD folks
Submitted by dvance on
I disagree that ADHD folks are knocking themselves out and doing their very best. What I see and read on this forum does not support ADHD adults doing their best. Now, granted, this forum is for folks who are having trouble, so we aren't likely to get a lot of successful ADHD couples here! But still. The good news is for this generation of ADHD kids, the world is a very different place. Heck when most of us were kids ADHD wasn't even a thing. I am 48, DH is 40. He just got in trouble a lot at school and got terrible grades. Now we are much more open about this diagnosis and have so many ways to attack it--meds, counseling, social skills groups, support at school. I have been a teacher for 17 years and have two teens both with ADHD and my experience in both of those arenas is very different than what DH says his schooling was like. Now ADHD is a handicapping condition that can get kids so much extra support which is good BUT it can also produce kids who cannot function on their own and expect other people to swoop in and solve their problems leading to the entitled people we sometimes hear about on this forum. But--overall--it's much better now. Many of my teacher friends and I see this as well and the trend we see is that kids are told that ADHD is not an excuse-they still need to behave and get their work done. It's a small sample I am dealing with I know--hardly a reliable indicator of the entire state of American education! But really--who ever heard of executive functioning 20 years ago?!?! Sometimes it is a bit much--kids who have been in school since they were four and in 6th grade don't know they have to stay seated when the teacher is talking?? Come on. But I digress. My point is I do not think ADHD adults now are knocking themselves out. I would wager many of them didn't get a diagnosis until they were adults and so much ground was lost and so many bad bad habits and coping mechanisms and lying to cover up weaknesses were already in place that it is darn near impossible to unwind all of that at age 50 let alone get an adult to even admit there is an issue. My DH is the most inefficient person I have ever seen. If there is a hard, long, weird, convoluted way to do something versus a simple and straightforward way--NOPE--he's going to pick the longer and harder way every darn time in the guise of "look how interesting and quirky I am" but if your brain works in a confusing way, it makes sense you pick a confusing way to do something. The lying and covering up makes sense to me to-who wants to look like an idiot all the time? Let me be clear-I am not condoning lying, but I understand where it comes from. My answer is get help so you stop doing stupid things like, oh, getting fired every three years, spending money foolishly, undermining decent parenting, having affairs, hiding food, gaining weight, lying about where you were and what you were doing (all real examples from my house in the last year).
Prairierose (love the name) I read all your posts and I wish you luck but if I was a betting woman, I would be there is another affair in your husband's future. Maybe not the immediate future, but in the next year. I hope I am wrong for you and your kids. Keep coming here for reminders that you are not crazy!!! I too made excuses for way too long (23 years). Even though we only have 2 kids, they are a great distraction-super easy to not pay attention to what's really going on in your marriage and then kids start to need less from you and holy cow--the lousy marriage is staring you in the face and you can't ignore it any more. That's what happened here and I am 100% guilty of not getting out sooner. I have wasted the best years of my life on a loser.
Welp.
Submitted by prairierose on
I hope you are wrong too! I am not a betting woman. I despise gambling, so I am in this with my eyes WIDE OPEN. I appreciate your comment because it absolutely highlights how devastating a late in life diagnosis with a whole heaping serving of denial can be. It sounds like your ex just could not get out of his own way. He would have taken you down with him completely but you got out. Good for you. I will get out too if this recovery is a failure. I will be free. I will not boil alive a minute longer.
One correction--my DH is 50,
Submitted by dvance on
One correction--my DH is 50, not 40--typo in my above post. We are not divorced yet--one child is a senior in high school and will go to college next fall, the older one took a year off after college and is now working and going to community college. He is hoping to go to U of Illinois (we live in a suburb of Chicago) next fall. Our lease is up in May so I am pushing for separating then but honestly--I don't know if we can afford two rents. I would have left years ago if we could have afforded it. I have worked mightily to keep us above water, which we are, and almost completely out of debt. What we don't have is college money for the boys--not one dollar of college money saved. That blows but when DH gets fired every three years, it's hard to save. It's not that he couldn't get out of his own way, he thinks he's fine, that his way is fine, that he is interesting and creative and fun, not immature and irresponsible and weird. He acts like holding down a job is this big deal rather than something all adults do, or all mature, responsible adults should be happy to do to provide for their families. I stayed far too long. I had a window seven years ago--he left and was gone for 6 months. I should have ended it then.
I hear you.
Submitted by prairierose on
My husband has been an excellent provider but he is terrible with a budget so I do that too, gladly. The problem is he doesn't seem to fully appreciate the sacrifices I have had to make-until now. When he has put his whole family life in peril.
I can not imagine continuing a marriage with a ADHD spouse who chooses denial over their wife and family. If my husband were not accepting of his deficits and needing to get help I would not even be here. I would be divorcing.
If I have to I will go bankrupt. I will not allow money to be an excuse. I would rather be poor than live like I have been living and with someone who will not honor me and love and cherish me the way I deserve. I grew up poor. I know poor.
I absolutely understand the issue of 2 rents not being in the budget. I really do. Being nearly debt free is a wonderful way to start your new life.
If he thinks he is so fine he can be fine alone. Tell him that and then follow through with doing and going your own way. Sounds like he has been way too comfortable with you being the stable responsible one. Well, he can do it on his own as soon as your youngest is grown and flown right?
You can live a whole new life for the second act. 50 is a beautiful age to start something new, for YOU. If he wants to join you in a healthy way, GREAT. He can respect your boundaries or be on his own. I have told my hubby I am living and doing for myself and our kids from here on out. He can join me in a healthy respectful way or he can go his own way. I am not carrying him.
Therapeutic treatment is a non-negotiable condition on his being here in this house. We will be in therapy for the rest of our marriage and I need to see milestones reached. I need answers. I need explanations, in his own words of his own volition. I need effort in being and living mindfully, new healthy habits, that honor me and our children. No lies, no shame spirals, just hard work and effort to be better. It is a struggle for sure. There is no perfection and there will be mistakes but there can never be another betrayal of any kind again.
The same topics will be rehashed over and over until he has his own firm grasp on how he did what he did. He knows exactly why he did it. I want to know how it is he could choose those particular activities so he can choose to never do them again.
If he can not put in the effort. He can not be in my life as my husband.
In my experience, “You’re to
Submitted by Hopeful Heart on
In my experience, “You’re to sensitive. Just get over it.” are very damaging statements and messages to send to children. I heard these words my whole life from my abusive narcissistic parents. These are the words that narcissists use to belittle and invalidate other’s feelings.
I think you were exactly right to allow your daughter to express her feelings. She needs to learn that she deserves to be treated like a princess instead of an after thought. I think it’s important for her to be able to have healthy relationships in the future.
I agree
Submitted by 1Melody1 on
Not speaking to him was her 11 year old way of stating a boundary. You're right - she is a princess and I never want her to find herself in a relationship like mine.
On another note, I am sorry about your parents. I have run into two narcissists in my life (friend, co-worker) and if anything makes ADHD look like a walk in the park, narcissistic personality disorder does.
I would have sought private,
Submitted by vabeachgal on
I would have sought private, individual counseling for myself rather than wait for my ex husband to take some action in that regard. I told him that he had to begin individual counseling before I would do marital counseling. In fact, his counselor (7 sessions, wow) allocated 10% of the 45 minute sessions to marital issues, the rest to him. LOL. I didn't realize how much stronger and resilient it might have made me. The decision was largely based on finances. I wish I had found a way. I would have benefited from someone's objective viewpoint. I wish I had been stronger, tougher and more self-serving rather than selfless. Think apply your own oxygen mask first. I let my ex husband dictate what might happen and also, to a large extent, my emotions by giving him the power to "do or not do" and thinking that everything hinged on his action or inaction. Things got easier when I paid strict attention to actions rather than words.
I became very aware of shifting language. Things like "we never talked about it" or "you never said", "no one ever told me (to be a faithful husband????), you know I have a problem.. it's about how I see myself as a man. I wish I had looked harder for language that indicated self awareness and personal responsibility. I stopped giving him a chance to break promises. He often said he would do something because it made him feel soooooo goooood in the moment, but he almost never followed through. I started calling him on it and saying "well, you may not, so I will.... blah blah " Simply avoiding the heartbreak of broken promises was helpful psychologically.
I waited. I wish I hadn't waited. I waited for self awareness and responsibility. I waited for him to seek appropriate treatment. I waited for an apology. I waited for anything to change. I wish I had claimed my own time and life.
Thank you, VA
Submitted by 1Melody1 on
I have read your post three times, each time walking away to let your words sink in. I can't thank you enough for this.
Thank you for this.
Submitted by prairierose on
This. All of this right here. Informs everything in my life from here on out.
Hubby has taken complete ownership of his choices. He swears he will never cheat again because now it is all out in the light of day. Really? Why else? Because he is so scared of losing his family. And?
I want it to be because he knows and understands why he chose every choice leading up to and in the encounters. I want it to be because he can actually form those deeper connections to his wife and kids so he never has to think on whether or not to put himself in the wrong situations, just get out or say no to any advances. I want his effort to be only in the direction of honoring his family not in feeling good only in the moment in the most selfish way imaginable.
However, the denial in the moment. The bad coping mechanisms and habits formed over a lifetime of undiagnosed ADHD is going to take a lot of effort and therapy.
Exactly this. I gave it
Submitted by vabeachgal on
Exactly this. I gave it almost 3 years from when I learned about everything, on top of all of the other run of the mill ADHD stuff preceeding it.
I NEEDED to know that he understood why he did what he did so that he would know how NOT to do it again. Self awareness 101. I wanted him to understand me and the family enough to choose NOT to cause harm. I wanted him to love us enough, I guess. That was the hardest thing. I can even accept ADHD as a somewhat selfish issue but I wish I had been loved enough that he would have made the unselfish decision to not hurt me. I wish he at least felt I was deserving of that. Instead, I heard "not you, it's me". Has anyone ever known those words to be anything but some permutation of bullshit??
In the beginning, he was afraid of losing the marriage and the family so he promised a great deal. In the end, the therapy was hard work. Hard internal work. He didn't want to do it. It seemed that he wanted to bail out of it as soon as anything negative was pointing back towards him. Now, I'm not saying it's all his fault. I was willing to do the work also, unpleasant as it might be. He stopped working as soon as it became difficult, even to the point of not refilling a prescription.
Actions. Not words. His words said he wanted to fix things. His actions said otherwise.
Anyway, at the end, I came to the conclusion that I couldn't live waiting for the other shoe to drop. It seemed like every time I said "is this is... spill it... let's get it out and move on" there was something more or something new would happen.
In the end, I couldn't withstand the constant traumatization. It was trauma. Over and over. It wore me down physically and emotionally.
I NEEDED to know that HE KNEW why he did it so that he wouldn't do it again. I needed it to be articulated to me. I needed that security. The other ADHD stuff was manageable, just like quirks I have.
For a long time he didn't take me seriously because I didn't give him enough of a reason to take me seriously. I absorbed everything. It was a blip in his radar, then life went back to his normal, no matter my devastation.
I also believe that repeated behavior is an intentional act but that other things such as ADD/ADHD, Bi polar, depression, etc. can contribute.
It didn't matter how loving or nurturing or supportive I was. It just WAS. Period. That didn't keep me from beating myself up about what I could do to change things.
Four months post divorce. It's been crazy busy. I've been totally exhausted. I'm on a much, much smaller income but I feel so satisfied that I don't even feel the want or need for anything. . But I'm so happy. I feel peace I haven't felt in a long time. I have also re-discovered how many amazing people there are in the world. I was so busy putting out fires in my own life or battling my own situational depression, that I lost sight of how wonderful life is and how fabulous people are. My life had become so isolated and no one really understood what was going on.
Every single bit of what you typed. ALL OF IT
Submitted by prairierose on
"It's not you, it's me"... Can you venture to guess how many times I have heard this refrain come out of his mouth since DDay??? EXACT WORDS! Oh, I am very aware it isn't me.
Yes, it is absolutely trauma, and our therapist is trained in the trauma therapy approach rather than codependency. This is not codependency, this is smoke and mirrors trauma, lying, gaslighting... and all the ways ADHD skews reality.
No. There are no more chances. There are no other options. 2 D Days, July 14th and July 18th. This is it. I will absolutely kick him out and file. I will have him served at work and get the child support and alimony direct deposited. He knows I am not bluffing one bit. I have my attorney picked out.
I will absolutely change the locks. There will be no conversation. He must respect and honor my boundaries of consistent participation in therapy, meds, and absolutely no cheating and a short list of other agreements. These are non-negotiables. I wasn't aware before but I am now and I will not put up with this treatment. It is absolutely a form of spousal abuse, to cheat and sleep with other women without my express consent. I do not consent!
This is not a victimless crime, he is well aware of what he has done to me but I need to hear in his own words how well he knows this. This is not just about him. This is about what he has chosen to inflict upon his wife and family. I will not exist this way. We are only on month 2 of therapy. He says he wants to be the man he hasn't been, the father he hasn't been. But is he truly capable? Of getting out of his own way? Is he actually capable of making those deep connections to his loved ones that should be occurring with so many shared life experiences and memories. These deep connections that form the touchstone and guiding compass of any healthy marriage and family??? Is he chemically neurologically capable? Is the cognitive ability even there?
I am showing him all of these posts because this is his future reality if he doesn't put in the effort. I need to see real heart felt effort. Every. Day. Also, no traveling for work ever again. I need this too.
I am printing off a copy of all my posts so he can read them whenever he needs to!
VA Beach Gal - ty
Submitted by 1Melody1 on
I just wanted to let you know that this post pushed me to do something I have been procrastinating on for a long time (or rationalizing that I can't afford/don't need)... I called a therapist last week. I had my first session and I am seeing her again this coming week. Although I was so nervous about going that I was shaking and very emotional, I felt incredibly relieved after being able to share my story, feelings and struggle with someone.
Thank you for sharing the benefit of your hindsight with me.
hugs !! :)
Submitted by vabeachgal on
I am wishing you the very best.
It is amazing when someone believes your ADHD spouse stories...
Submitted by Will It Get Better on
I found a therapist who has extensive background treating AHDH and ADHD spouses. I nearly cried when the therapist immediately believed my ADHD support stories rather that giving a 'maybe you have to try harder to understand your ADHD wife's motivations' blather. Of course, as Melissa discusses, I have all my own 'response to ADHD symptom' issues but to have someone be familiar with ADHD symptoms BEFORE you explain them is a godsend. It reinforces the 'I am not going crazy! Hooray!' meme.
He isn't seeing it.....
Submitted by c ur self on
He is right in his mind....He know's he loves his child, he know's he cares deeply, he know's he will always be there as her provider and caregiver until she is grown.....The mind he lives with, (the one you are talking about here) he has accepted...It's what he deals with everyday, in every interaction...He probably see's your corrective advice as insulting, and demeaning... His ability to be aware of his daughters need to be heard, and feel his approval isn't something that is natural for his mind....I'm not saying he can't force himself (make a habit of stopping his mind) to be attentive at a level close to that you are capable of giving your child....But it's way more difficult for him, and he will have to realize the need....
Many of our minds have multiple thoughts swirling around most of the time....Men or very different from women in what kinds of thoughts (concerns) can haunt them. Men are more practical and less empathetic....So many men and women (adhd or not) love their comfort zone's, justify them, and really DON'T SEE the need to be different....
My oldest daughter did not get the personal attention (nurturing) she needed from me growing up. As a husband and Father I guess I was focused on working everyday, keeping a wife happy, paying bills, helping w/ the cooking, and cleaning, yard work, hobbies and trying to get enough sleep to do it all again the next day....I wasn't aware of the little things I could do better (listening, and investing on an emotional level that my little girls needed, from Dad...So my daughter and I spent all night crying and discussing this when she probably 18....And we have a great relationship (very close) now, but she still carry's baggage from my emotional inattention....
Maybe you should read this your husband ( we can learn from one another)....It couldn't hurt, I wish the best for your family...
c
Holding grudges
Submitted by bowlofpetunias on
I get a lot of criticism from my wife for "holding grudges." What she takes as "holding grudges" is my noticing and pointing out that there is a pattern of behavior that has not changed instead of just treating each incident (such as interrupting me or blurting out something embarrassing) as an isolated event as a isolated occurrence (and therefore not a big deal because, you know, there is no reason to think it will happen again--other than that is what she said all of the other times.)
That is a very common dynamic here also Petunias....
Submitted by c ur self on
The pointing it out is a beat down for them...You and I and so many here know it's going to repeat it self, we know the eruptions are coming...I've worked hard on myself to accept my wife....The last and most difficult thing for me to let go of is the pointing it out....
But, when I am successful at it..(silence) our relationship isn't damaged after the outburst, and she even seems to be remorseful (c herself) when I just walk away....I'm not perfect at it....It's just who they are though....It's who we married....I really don't know what to do...But, I know pointing it out, to a mind who is excusing it, only creates more conflict...
Blessings Friend...
c
Melody
Submitted by Brindle on
I’m so sorry that his response was so uncaring. We have similar things here. It’s as if the kids don’t get to have feelings at our house. Well, actually, he’s not ok with my feelings, either. The only feelings that count are his.
I’ve tried to intervene in behalf of our children. But mine responds similarly to how your husband responded to your daughter. He’s even refused, in their presence, to make it right. He’s added more hurtful things as we are asking for him to see he hurt them in the first place. So now I refuse to try to help that. It makes the problem worse, and I won’t choose to bring my kids more pain. So he can reap the costly consequences.
I think in my husband’s case, he chooses to not see it. Because I think he is scared of vulnerability. So at the cost of his family, he protects himself and wraps himself in blankets of blame and deflection.
I alternately feel sorrow for him and anger toward him. He could change it. But he doesn’t want to. It’s easier and feels safer for it to be someone else’s fault.
I think at some point in his life, when he’s lost everything, he will be that bitter guy in the bar talking about the betrayal by his wife and kids.