I used to post here all the time but I eventually left my ADD husband and stopped posting. I left 3 years ago, and we've been divorced for 2 years. I realized there was no way I could live with him. He cut off all communication with me and his family made it clear they didn't want to hear from me any more, and I accepted that. I moved to a town 90 miles away to live with my daughter, got a job and, eventually, my own place.
Before Christmas, I went to an event in our hometown. I stopped by his place because I wanted to collect a couple of things my movers didn't get, and check on our dog and cat. (I had hated to leave them behind but they weren't welcome at my daughter's house). I was shocked to find, literally, lots of poop on the floor along with bottles and cans and God-knows-what. The whole place smells like a litterbox. It's not just messy, it's unsanitary and unsafe. I greatly fear when he moves out that the landlord with have to remove the walls and floors to get the smell out. I didn't say anything to him about the state of the place. I signed the original lease and paid the security deposit but that expired years ago. I never expected to get my security deposit back.
So now the question is what do I do about this? His family doesn't want to speak to me. I don't know how much they know about this. I reached out to his pastor but it turns out he's retired and moved across the country. I reached out the parish nurse but she hasn't responded. Should I let him continue to destroy the house? Should I tell the landlord and get him kicked out? (God knows where a guy who makes minimum wage and has a dog and a cat would go.) Should I call the police? Should I do nothing? I still love him although I know we can't live together.
I know there's more going on here than ADD. He was also diagnosed with depression, before the ADD diagnosis. But I married him and took him out of his mother's house so I feel some responsibility. I'd welcome any advice.
Welcome back, Sueann. I
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
Welcome back, Sueann. I definitely remember you and I'm so glad to know that you are safe and no longer living with your ex-husband. How old is your husband? Depending on his age and the laws in the state in which he lives, he might be subject to protection by "adult-at-risk" laws. If the state does have such a law and if your husband falls within one of the protected classes, you probably can call the county's social services department (e.g., "adult protective services") to make an anonymous report indicating that you think he is at risk for self-neglect.
I remember you too
Submitted by Sueann on
I was surprised to see how many names of posters I recognize. The problem is lasting improvement almost never happens so the "nons" keep beating their heads against the wall until they either give up or leave (like I did).
If I remember right, you are a lawyer and don't really live full-time with your husband. Right? I discussed this with my lawyer (who happens to be my daughter). She says there isn't much I can do. She liked the suggestions of reaching out to the pastor and the parish nurse, but they have come to nothing.
He is 54 years old. He lived with his mom until he married me when he was 44. They were rather co-dependent. She wanted him to stay with her so that his income could go into supporting the family home, when I think she should have sold the house and bought a condo of suitable size and cost for the income she has. With him gone, the house was sold and she lives in a mother-in-law suite in the house of one of his other brothers. I do not think that brother and his wife want to take my ex in and there really isn't room in her suite for him.
I am just lost. I still care about the animals, but they can't live with me. I'm disabled and can't be a full time dog parent to a 60-pound dog, and I'm not sure how the family cat would get along with mine (who was given to me because she didn't get along with the person's other cats). I made arrangements with our vet when I left that if he brought them in, I would pay the bills, but he hasn't availed himself of that. The dog is elderly and should have been going to the vet! I feel bad for adopting the animals and putting them in this situation.
I feel bad for ever marrying him. At least with his mom he had someone to live with who cared about him. I know this isn't really my responsibility any more but I am haunted by someone that I once loved who is so depressed/ADD/whatever that he would live like that.
I will check into social services next week. The funny thing is my former mother-in-law used to work in the at-risk adult department of that department. How can she not realize?
I understand your distress.
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
I understand your distress. It's hard to understand behavior such as your ex's. But if try to help, you'll probably just drown along with him. Some victims want to be saved; others want to take people down with them. I think your ex and my husband are like that.
Hi Sueann...Remember why you left...
Submitted by c ur self on
Try not to take on the burden of stress and anxiety about another adult's choices...If he's not concerned enough about his situation to change it, you are powerless to heIp...I predict it would just further erode the relationship to do something behind his back...It's his life; so I suggest you do nothing.
C
My concern is the victims who did not choose this
Submitted by Sueann on
I still love the dog and cat I left behind. This can't be safe for them either. I am also concerned for the landlord, a nice individual owner (not a big apartment complex). He will have to do SO much work to be able to rent the place again. I've seen episodes of shows on HGTV where the new owner actually has to rip out floors and walls because of the stench left behind by previous occupants. I am not sure if I might be sued because of the damage he's done to the house. (Daughter isn't a real estate attorney and doesn't know.)
And of course I'm concerned about him as well. His mother was hardly a neatnik but he was not brought up like this. How much he must be hurting to let himself and his home go to this extent.
How about calling the humane
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
How about calling the humane society and the landlord?
If I call the landlord he
Submitted by Sueann on
If I call the landlord he will throw my ex out. Not sure that's a good idea. The humane society would probably take the animals and they would end up being put to sleep. I really don't want that either, but I can't take them.
There are things you can do:
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
There are things you can do: contact the landlord; contact adult protective services; contact an animal rescue organization or humane society (many are no-kill). There are things you can't do: fix your ex-husband. So, it might help to decide which, if any, of the first three you're willing to do; and then work on accepting that you can't fix your ex-husband and that his living conditions are not your responsibility. Really.
I understand...
Submitted by c ur self on
If my name was on the existing lease; I would make him an offer...I would tell him I will take a weekend and help you clean the place and put it in shape (and he must agree to keep it that away)...If you refuse, I have no option but to tell the Land Lord what you are doing to the place...I want be responsible for your abuse of this property....I wouldn't give him any other option, unless he promised to do it himself and text you photo's of the place clean...
C
Fortunately, my name is on no current lease
Submitted by Sueann on
We moved into this house in 2007 and have signed renewal leases. But I've signed no lease since I left and I did inform the landlord I was leaving. He negotiated a new lease with my ex and his mother paid his rent for a while until he got a job. As far as I know he is actually current on his rent. I am still afraid of being sued. That's what comes of having a paralegal degree and a daughter who is a lawyer.
I certainly can't physically help him clean it. I am disabled to begin with, and just had surgery on my rotator cuff. So, from a physical-work point of view I'm useless.
I think I will try adult protective services tomorrow and see what they say.
Too bad that you didn't take
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
Too bad that you didn't take pictures. At least then his family couldn't claim that you were lying. Your Ex has likely lied about you, which is why they've taken the position that they have.
Since the damage is already so extensive, why bother doing anything? If contacting the landlord would have PREVENTED the damage, then it would have been worthwhile, but the damage is already long done. What difference will it make if he continues there? As you've said, repairs would already be extensive. If he were to move, he'd just do the same again.
It's unfortunate, though, that the pets are in an unsanitary situation. Do they even have clean water to drink?
Was your Ex there when you were there?
In law families can be weird....
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
His family either is angry at you for abandoning him. They may believe it was your duty to "take care of him" and once you moved out, you were on their black list.
I understand that. I was on my H's family's black list for a LONG time. They live far away and their limited knowledge of me was mostly outrageous lies told by my H. of course, he wasn't telling them that he had become a raging alcoholic and had outrageous outbursts.
Solicited Advise and Unsolicited Help
Submitted by kellyj on
Hi Sueann,
With all due respect to your concerns about your (ex)H and (his) animals....I think you should do nothing.
As it appears very obvious from the things you've said....you care deeply about the well fare of everyone concerned here; your ex-husband, the animals, the landlord and your own fears about any ramifications you might incur in the future being tied in some way to contract you originally made with your H (the lease contract) as well as the implied responsibility for taking "him out of his mother's house" by marrying him and moving in with him once you were married. That sounds like a lot of responsibility to me? My only question to you seems to be coming from wondering how you became so responsible for so many things that don't appear to have anything to do with you or to be posing you any problems currently? As you said......YOU made the decision to leave your H and get divorced from him 2 years ago. That was your decision not his if I read this correctly. As I understand the law at least.....I don't think you are responsible for much of anything your H does once the divorce is finalized. Even with legal contracts ie: credit card debt, possession of property or any implied legal responsibilities ( the same as implied warranties as I am seeing it in Tort law) whether real or otherwise stated. I'm not a lawyer....but I understand the basic fundamental legal goal of divorce....that is....separating legal ties and returning both people to the status as close to the way your were before you were married. As far as the law is concerned....I'm just not seeing any basis for your own personal fears but I certainly could be wrong here. That being said.....my gut is telling me otherwise?
With all due respect for the law and what it is designed to do.....that is.....protect the rights and safety of others, in respect to your EX husband since you have divorced from him for 2 years and left him 3 years ago and moved to a different city.....you really have no legal say to what your ex or anyone else does or have any rights to decide for yourself if the living conditions of another person is unsafe or even have any place in saying exactly what that is? Who are you trying to protect here and why?
In respect to his animals......unless you stipulated some joint co-ownership of them in the divorce....you gave up any claims or responsibilities what so ever for them a well. Being an animal lover myself....I love them and place my own human emotions onto them sometimes....but in reality.....animals needs and what they want mostly from being with humans in the first place is just to be loved and paid attention to. Their assessment of unacceptable conditions might be a slight bit different than ours would be in respect to cleanliness and squalor as long as they are being fed, watered and not being beaten and as long as they are having attention, love and affection paid to them. It is arrogant to assume otherwise and put your needs, wants and desires on a dog or a cat if you understand what I am saying?
In all of what I am seeing here......you have made a lot of decisions here and acted on them and your ex husband appears not to have been given many choices. What I see is you making choices for yourself and what it appears to be everyone else involved and have already decided how they feel and what they want (for them) by taking on that responsibly to be the one in the position to do so. Simply going over to get some things left there two years ago does not give you any more authority in this either now or in the future.....your (ex)H has the right (legal or otherwise) to simply be left alone all thing considered.....and it does appear that he has made that fairly clear to you by his actions and his own family made that clear to you as you said. What more do you want here.....an engraved invitation.....that is....to leave him alone and respect his privacy?
But legally or otherwise......you are no longer in that position and haven't been for two years. You did make this decision and he is left having to make his own for himself. If his landlord or the local powers that be decide otherwise.....that will be up to them to deal with him. And in turn....him with them. You really don't have a leg to stand on here legal or otherwise and you don't even live in the same city any more? Where is all this guilt and personal responsibility coming from and why all the unsolicited "well meaning" need to get involved in another individuals personal affairs? I think it's a fair question and I'm only asking it because it is the same one I would ask of you myself if your were standing in front of me telling me the same story?
J
I brought the animals into our household
Submitted by Sueann on
I found the dog on an internet posting and thought he'd be just the kind of dog H would like. (I was right.) The poster gave the dog to us because the dog seemed to like H best of everyone who asked for him. So I do feel responsible for getting him into this mess.
The cat was given to us when we went to pick up something from a Freecycle ad and they had to give away their cats because they were moving to a no-pets house. So I got the cat into this mess too.
I still love the animals, even though circumstances did not allow me to take them when I left. They don't deserve this. I didn't see the cat, but the dog seems well fed. However, he has no fur on his back end because he isn't getting his flea treatment. I would be concerned about an animal suffering so, even if he wasn't once mine and I was responsible for his present circumstances. I find the idea that he should be left like that to be cruel.
The landlord took a chance on us based on my income as H was not working when we signed the lease. So of course, I do feel responsible to him as well.
H had plenty of choices. He CHOSE not to work for over 2 years, nor apply for any jobs. He CHOSE to do no housework, even though his physically disabled wife was working 2 jobs. I lost my job, we had no income, and to save myself, I moved in with my daughter. She did not want H or our animals. If I had known he was going to abuse them like this, I never would have left them with him. Of course I'm responsible! I'm not being a busybody here. I didn't suggest jobs he could apply for or say one word about his choice to live in filth. I just want to protect my animals and our landlord, who has been really nice to us over the years (when we were together). I was just looking for suggestions about how to do it. I am sorry I offended you.
I Understand.....No Offense Taken
Submitted by kellyj on
And in respect to you now (as I did with everyone else) I had already assumed from what little you said.....that what you just said here in your response....was probably the case. That is.....he is neglecting himself and the animals all at the same time. Said differently......the abuse and negative self worth or hatred he is imposing on himself is indirectly abusing the animals at the same time even without intention on his part to do so. I think this is most likely the case from everything I know?
What I was attempting to do is to make you think about what you are attempting to do and how your are going about it. Think of this in terms of yourself. How would you respond if the police or some government agency came knocking on your door and took your animals away from you out of the blue one day without warning? Even if you are at fault or you can see why they did this......if you are suffering from depression ( the likely cause for your ex H's behavior ) this will not help. It will only make a person like this more bitter, angry and resentful especially if they are already in a victim mentality and feel the world or others are all working against you and trying to persecute you for having these struggles in your life. It's just a downward spiral that will get worse from there.
Personally.....I hate nothing more than to get a notification or something along those lines from an outside agency without the benefit of the doubt and someone has taken it upon themselves to act as judge and jury and has decided to take this to an outside source or agency. Those agencies are not people ( Corporations aren't people for example ) even though they have people who work for them. But those people don't come to you with options. They come to you with a decision and a demand for satisfaction in what is usually....a very limited time frame determined by statute and with no flexibility. At least....not by the messengers who are there to deliver the message. They have a job to do and they are just following orders.
My wife is a social worker so I know how these things work. Once you open that door and pull the trigger (you that is in your case)....all choices and decisions become place in the hands of the system. Once you are in the system.....it is very hard to get back out of it or not have those classifications go on record and follow you around for the rest of your life. The system as it is.....does not do a very good job of taking individuals extenuating circumstance into account or really has many allowances in place to deal with mental health concerns in an integrated way. Put succinctly.....they suck at it!! HARD!!! The stories and the tragedy as a result from this has made me nauseous to the point of despair when my wife has told me what REALLY happens and the chain of events that can take place under a system that is ill prepared to find any real solutions. There job is to simply process and fix the immediate problem without concern for the people and the consequences of their actions.
By taking the approach you are considering....it may serve to do exactly what you want from it for all the reasons why. You may feel like you have done what you feel is the best thing for your animals or the landlord all things considered.....but where will that leave your ex? You may not have to fight the system at all in what you are considering and you may feel this is the right thing to do.....but where will that leave your ex? He won't be fighting you in this case.....but he will only be worse off not better and full of anger towards you for putting him into that position ie: having to fight up against a system that doesn't give a rip about his personal well being and his depression and only wants results on a time line he has no control over. If I were him in this case no matter how much I could see my own fault in why this happened....I would resent you until the end of time and probably hate you for doing it that way instead of anything else you might possibly come up with as an alternative.
His only choice in the matter would be (now) to fight you or the system on their terms......in a legal sense as I was emphasizing. There are avenues available to do this no matter who you are and what you have been accused of but now.....it's on their terms and how they decide. All the choices on both sides are gone and it can become a nightmare. A nightmare I would avoid at ALL costs!!!!
The last thing you ever want to do is open that door and pull that trigger by taking the personal responsiblity you feel you have in this situation and put that in the hands of a third party agency instead of handling this on a personal level one on one yourself which may require a great deal more effort and time expended on your end to accomplish the very same thing yourself.
Case in point........
I use to own and raise Doberman Pinchers and at one time I had 3 of them at the same time. Not with intention but that's just how it ended up (long story...irrelevant to this one). I currently own two Pappilon's which is about as different a dog as you could imagine but not really from where I sit. Both Doberman's and Pappilon's are extremely bright and intelligent animals. High energy, intuitive, protective and loyal. They exist as number 7 and number 8 respectively on the dog intelligence scale and are two of the smartest dogs breeds you could pick from ( out of hundreds of breeds ). This helps give them their own distinct but yet similar personalities and temperaments and make them extremely trainable and easy to deal with on a personal level. You'd never think so to look at them.....but both breeds are remarkably similar in all respects which is one of the characteristics that I appreciate most about either breed.
Anyway.....one day when I only owned one Dobermans (my first)....I was on my own property working in lower end of my 1/2 acre lot and my girl dog (80 lbs or her) was roaming around free and enjoying laying in the sun and being by my side the whole time. Later that day.....I get a knock on my door and it was from the animal control department. It seemed.....someone had called them and reported an aggressive guard dog running loose in the neighborhood and they came to take my dog from me and put her in a quarantine for 2 weeks at my expense at a cost of $1,500. It just so happened that the woman from the country actually had a Doberman herself and she asked if she could see my dog first. After literally 30 seconds with my sweet people loving dog....she told me that my dog was not a threat to anyone. I told her the circumstance and she agreed.....who ever made that complaint was full of shit and it only by fate and my good fortune that she had been the one who had made the call. Other wise.....they would have taken my dog and put her in quarantine in a shelter which would have cost me $1500.
All because my dog was a Doberman. A ferocious guard dog that was a threat and danger to the entire neighborhood even though she was on my own property and wasn't making a peep or bothering anyone.
What do you think that neighbor had to say about this when I confronted her and chastised her for calling the county and telling her that her head was up her ass and she knows nothing about dogs or dog breeds and watches way too much television? That she should have come over and said something so she could meet my dog to see that just because they use Dobermans in movies and television shows as portrayed as dangerous and vicious doesn't mean they are. In reality....they are over grown lap dogs and are not any meaner or vicious than many other breeds you could come up with? She shut the door in my face and has never talked to me again. I in turn.....made sure to allow my dog to roam as much as she felt like...especially when in the areas that this woman was mostly concerned about just to spite her for her rudeness and ignorance on all levels. I was so angry with this neighbor that I was so inclined to do just the opposite of what she wanted that I did that instead of what she actually wanted in the first place since she was personally afraid of all dogs but especially....the ones who looked the meanest even though they aren't in reality.
This is what the animal control officer ended up telling me after she went over and had a talk with this woman. That this woman personal phobia's about dogs in general had promoted her to make the call out of an irrational fear she had of dogs.
And in turn....her personal phobia nearly cost me $1500 without any real evidence to support her claims but....out of sheer luck of the draw....they send an animal control officer who owned a Doberman herself and this is what saved the day for me. As it ended up.....she had her dog in her truck and she let her out to play with my girl and they both ran around and had a good time while the control officer and I talked about this very thing and why it is so dangerous to make calls to the county or state and have them get involved instead of simply going to the person directly with your concerns and working with them first instead.
Whenever you put defer the power you have (or don't have) in the hands of a third party agencies to do the talking for you....all choices and all considerations are taken from you and your choices a few and far between.
Do you think I have friendly fond feelings for this neighbor even to this day? (this happened over twenty years ago when I was a lot more passive aggressive in my responses to these things) Even now......I have no intention of ever speaking to this person again and occasionally when I see her across the field that separates our two houses....she slinks away and leaves the area out of shame and embarrassment even though I tend not to pay her any attention at all if I can help it.
The point and moral of the story in light of all the things you just listed as your reasoning here is that it is not the reasons you have and how you feel about the situation you have with your ex husband......it's the way you are going about it and the approach you are using that I think you should consider and choose a different avenue to get the same results you want. Consider your ex and how he might feel and what this might leave him with to contend with.
As I said to you before restated differently. You have the choices here. He does not. Everything you just stated was about the past. All of it. Nothing you said is in direct connection to what is happening right now in the present time. You are justifying the present by using the past to do so. What you said about "I never would have left them with him"...in respect to you....there is no way you could have known. You can't predict what another person will do in the future especially when you aren't there to control it or have any say in the matter after the fact. You did what you did to survive because you had to....I believe you completely and have a better picture in that much from the things you said on top of everything I know of myself and having ADHD. That part...I get and am on your side here.
The part that I don't agree with is the part where you are now somehow responsible for anything your H has done since you left. You were not then...and are not now.....responsible for him in any way. You are NOT his mother, parent or guardian even if you became an enabler by default due to his dysfunction. That.....you may have had little to no choice in as well as having to save yourself for doing what you did. You are not responsible for any of this even if you feel you are.
That's why I think it's best you let the chips fall as they may with your H and leave him to either get help.....or sink to rock bottom and then figure it out for himself. Even if he were to commit suicide because of his dysfunction (hypothetically).....you have 0% responsibility for that even if it were to happen.
At the very least.....if it were me in your shoes.....I would insist on taking the cat from him by speaking directly to him about the exact same things you said here and make sure the cat is placed in a home where it can be cared for in a way that it is not getting cared for. Not because you feel guilty or responsible for the cat as you said.....but because you love the cat and you don't want it to be neglected as it appears your ex is doing.
You can call it abuse if you like and that would be the term the county or governmental agencies might use as well.....but if you are to get REAL here and move away from those labels.......your ex husband needs help (most likely from depression) not more things to put him further into it. He is neglecting himself first and the animals are just a side effect of his own personal abuse. He is suffering the punishment imposed on himself on a daily basis for his own neglect and personal hatred towards himself. He's already paid that price already....he doesn't need a government agency exacting any more punishment on top it.
Since I am in a position to tell you something that is illegal to do but possibly one you might consider here with the cat. I might be inclined if your H resists you about giving up the cat......and since he actually has legal authority to call the police if you were to take it from him now at this time all things considered (including what I said about the legalities of divorce from the state agencies perspective).....to go there when he is won't see you and get the cat and take it anyway without anyone seeing you do this. This would be a last resort of course but only if that is the only alternative you might have instead of getting the county involved. You could go to civil court and do this through them but that is exactly what I am not proposing you do. I think there is a time and a place to do the right thing for the right reason and know that it may not be the right thing in the eyes of the law and it still be Okay to do sometimes. This is a fine line and not one to take lightly but....it is also a choice you have that is an option. I'm not telling you to do this.....I'm just saying there are usually many more options to consider than handing it over to a third party agency to do it for you.
J
My 61-year-old husband's
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
Not comtemplating anything
Submitted by Sueann on
I didn't turn him in to the landlord. As someone else said, he's already destroyed the house and wouldn't have anywhere else to go.
I haven't called anyone to get the animals taken away from him. I think they are one of the few positive things in his life.
I just was hoping someone could suggest some way to wake him up or get him treatment so that he and the animals could have a better life. He can't like living like this!
My husband lives with his
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
My husband lives with his elderly parents. His mother has dementia. His father has many health problems and continues to be verbally and emotionally abusive. My husband is very depressed. But he refuses to make changes in his situation. I don't think it's just the depression; it's a lifelong pattern of passivity. Being rescued without having to ask for help would be a possibility for my husband. But I also think that he gets some kind of emotional payback from being a victim.
I Agree Rosered
Submitted by kellyj on
My comment below is basically saying the same thing but I also agree with the passivity part and a "need" to rescued from a victims stance. If someone were to value him enough to go out of their way to rescue you......it might prove you are worth something. To ask for help would not give you this same validation.
J
Does He Have Any Friends You Can Call?
Submitted by kellyj on
I think if you could call someone that he trusts (not necessarily his parents from the sound of it as you already said) he might respond to a couple of friends better than most anyone else. If they were to go over with the idea of giving him a leg up to help him clean up together and get things in better shape.....it might snap him out of it and give him the boost he needs to get his act together? No guarantees here of course....but knowing that someone cares and is willing to help might be exactly what he needs and be enough to get him started. I'm saying this using myself here from my past. I was terrible about asking for help and mostly wouldn't do it that for myself until it was offered. If he's depressed and he can't get himself out of his funk.....he may secretly be wishing someone would come along to give him a hand but is afraid or embarrassed to ask. Having someone who he trusts from the outset who knows him would be the first person(s) I would think of.
Kind of like an intervention. For that matter.....exactly like one?
J
That's why I reached out to his pastor
Submitted by Sueann on
Most of his friends are in his church. I did not attend his church but did have a great relationship with his pastor. But he now lives 3000 miles away. When I left, there must have been a general "good riddance" as not one person from his church reached out to or spoke to me again. I wouldn't have a clue how to contact any of them again.
I did finally hear from the parish nurse. Just a vague call that she's "looking in to it". Due to HIPPA, I will probably never get any information from her, but I hope she's able to do something.
I agree he needs an intervention. Most of the people on Hoarders get started on the road to working on their problem due to something like that.