Weird Lying - What is it?

Something happened this weekend that made me realize that I've seen a pattern.  A very, very odd and unhealthy pattern.  My husband lies and hides.  All the time and about stupid stuff that shouldn't matter as well as big stuff that does matter.  I've known this for a long time.  When he went to therapy briefly, the only piece of information he gave me was that he determined that he lied all the time to everyone.  (This was supposed to make me feel better because the lies weren't directed solely at me.)  I've posted exhaustively about this and I've stated that a lot of the ADHD symptoms I could live with, but not the lies. I've appreciated Melissa's instructions about lying in an ADHD relationship but intuitively rejected most of it, not because it's not valid  - it definitely IS good straightforward advice- but because it didn't seem to fit my circumstances.  Something seemed off, like this advice and information didn't fit my scenario. 

It's not the lying and hiding that is odd - it's the way he does it.  He has taken up RC vehicles as a hobby and participates with a friend from work.  Fine.  Good.  Yesterday, while I was housecleaning, he came to me with an RC part in his hand and said sort of weirdly apologetically or deferentially but with a sort of smug look on his face (I wish I could explain this better) that he was going to "run cars" with his buddy and would be back in 2 hours.  He was back in 2 hours.  But.... there is a bar charge on his card today.  Clearly he did not intend to "run cars" but was instead doing something else.  He was at home the rest of the day.  I asked him later how it went and he sort of stalled before answering me, thinking about what to say. Another mutual friend volunteered that he had been at the bar the whole time and had made plans earlier in the day. 

The weird part is the "prop".  Again, I wish I could explain this well.  It seems premeditated and complicated. He uses physical props and specifically draws attention to them in order to support his lies. He went out of his way to come to me with something in his hand to support a lie.  Something clicked and I realized he does this often.  For example, we got a letter in the mail from our homeowners association, addressed to both of us.  I asked what is was about.  He said it a notice to repair and paint our mailbox.  He then immediately left the house, went to the home improvement store and returned with paint.  He laboriously explained to me about the paint and technique. (The paint is still sitting in the garage with mailbox unpainted and still broken).  Anyway, it was a notice that he hadn't paid our dues for two years, unknown to me.  But instead of telling me he had hidden the bill for 2 years, he created this other alternate scenario, complete with a purchase. One time he was putting a new stereo receiver in his vehicle and took pains to show me and tell me that his buddy got it as a buy one get one deal.  Really???? I'm supposed to believe that?  Especially when I can clearly see where and how it was purchased?  One time he came home, gathered tools, put them in his car and said he was going to a friend's house to fix flooding in the crawl space.  Grievous error.  It was a mutual friend and I also knew she appreciated a nice Cabernet which I thought she might enjoy while dealing with the stress of a flooded crawl space ..... oooops.  She had plenty to say to him about involving her in his lies.  But, seriously, go home and load the car with tools? It's not always about money or whereabouts, sometimes it's about stuff he says he's done or conversations he's had with others. For example, he will lie about vendors paying for nice lunches, then I see a charge go through.  

I suppose these examples don't carry much weight but it is such odd behavior.  It's like he builds up a whole story to present to me.  That's why I've had a hard time with the "regular" lying in an ADHD relationship advice.  It's not casual, "honest" ADHD lying like, sure I picked up the dry cleaning (I'll get it tomorrow I mean... I forgot. I think we all do some of that.  

I don't know what to make of this except to say, again, it's more than ADHD and I'm starting to apply unhealthy and unpleasant adjectives to my husband.  More than that, I have zero faith whatsoever that there's a fix for this.  There's too much going on.  WTH???  What is this behavior??? 

The thing that I've noticed this past year is the look on his face.  He gets a gloaty faint smile.  I think he's happy he thinks he's putting something over on me and I think he takes some pleasure in it - like it gives him a rush or something.  Does it make sense that someone with ADHD would engage in his crazy a*& behavior to get a chemical rush? 

Anybody?  I've reached a point of objectivity in the relationship where I know I can't fix it and I know it's more a reflection of him than me, but for cryin' out loud !!!!!!  What is this?  Bi Polar?  I think it's a little beyond lying as an ADHD coping mechanism, given the thought put into it, he makes up circumstances. Or does ADHD compromise brain connections to that level?  Of course he can't handle money.  He's not operating on an honest level, it seems. If I call him on this stuff, he gets very angry and defensive or tells me I'm wrong and it "didn't happen like that'  "didn't say that" , etc.  You all know that routine.  I'm at a loss.  He determined in therapy that he lies all the time and he makes up these scenarios WITH PROPS!!  

 

Ooooops, lied again, Oh I'm used to it now...it's who you are

I just happened to have written a very similar post..but it got erased (my fault).  The post was about trust and that I cannot trust my husband with the simplest sentence.  My H also lies about things that need no lying and he goes into such detail about them....when his sentence includes something about time, place, activity  he uses seven sentences to tell me a thing that have no relavence to me or the thing he is sayin, I now assume he is lying to tell me and then consiously trying to derail me from asking any questions.....like he thinks he can divert a discussion by boring me with details or derailing my thoughts.  Yes,  This is the worst part of H.  I cannot believe a single thing he says...even when it is just about how he feels because he has a habit of lying and hiding.  I have been alone in this marriage too long and it is effecting my mental health.

 I have started an inside campaign with myself to STOP thinking about H's actions and my feeling down about him and about myself and I am changing that habit when I catch myself to put MY FOCUS on to positive things, activities, people. I have presently dug myself into such a hole that I am miserable thinking about him (us) all the time.  My health..physical, mental and spiritual...is at risk if I don't change my thoughts.  So, for me, I must let H be (he has always been very independent of me).  I can't change him. I don't like our relationship.  What happens, happens, but I MUST situate myself with people I trust and admire. I will take every opportunity to meet new people and trust them.  I must let go of my husband emotionally and physically because he brings me down and I cannot sacrifice my self for him any longer. Having the chair pulled from under me by the person who I expected would have my back over and over again has been stupid and I must stop letting myself constantly fall to the floor and hurt.

Thank you for responding.

Thank you for responding.  Yes, I've spent the last year actively building a support group and circle of friends.  It's been a very good thing for me.  I recommend it.  

I also read somewhere about a "2 minute distraction".  The basic premise is that ruminating has negative effects and, in fact, can change your brain chemistry.  The suggestion is to choose a simple 2 minute distraction (walk, listen to music, anything) when you begin stressing and ruminating about H and the situation.  It's been very helpful for me to practice this and cut short the negative, circular thoughts.  I can't find a link but you can probably google it and find it. It has worked very well for me and has kept me from feeling down about him and the relationship and transferring those negative feelings to myself. 

Sure, I didn't think about it in simple terms - it's a big fat diversion. I overlooked that. Sure, if he answers all the questions, I don't have anything left to ask. 

I also no longer expect truth but I also no longer get worked up or upset about the lies.  

Could these be in fact dishonest lies?

Hi vabeachgal,

The "honest lies", as I see them, is something the ADHD partner believes in. The concept is easy to grasp for me if when I realize how many facts they miss, or simply forget, even in their own behavior. And it feelss kind of natural they must reconstruct it somehow, because their brain requires a narrative, so if they can't find any explanation, they build a new one, like "ok, so it must have happened this way, because I see no other logical explanation". The fact they use some very twisted logic doesn't help (I's avoid any logic-based discussions with my spouse, because I know where it leads), but once the narrative sinks in, it's really hard to convince them that's not what happened, because now it's how they REMEMBER it.

What you described is something different, I think. I mean, it must be deliberate if you come up with an elaborate story, including all the props, and are able to focus on supporting it for so long as to complete the many tasks it involves, like going to the shop, buying paint etc. This just feels like a big fat lie. But maybe he's doing it searching for adrenaline rush, to stimulate his brain or something? I've heard that's not uncommon, although I can't say I've experienced it (I mean, mine doesn't lie for stimulation; only to cover her neglect, and that's usually with "honest lies").

I agree with your distinction

I agree with your distinction.  This is generally preemptive lying, not lying to cover up a forgotten item.  Those things barely bother me because I do tasks that are urgent or high priority .... if he forgot milk, it's fine, because I remembered to show up for the kid's game.... and get milk on the wy home...not the other way around. It doesn't seem like fill in the narrative lying either.  It's not that he didn't remember something and filled in the blanks, it's that he created something from scratch to divert attention. 

Honest lies and lack of logical thought progression, meh, I could figure out what's going on and not be too concerned. 

Or is it plain old selfishness and immaturity, wanting to do what he wants to do when he wants to do it without bothering to have an adult conversation?  Because I wouldn't care if he went out to watch the race just like I didn't care if he was playing with rc cars.

Based on the way he looks sometimes, I'd say there is some kind of adrenaline rush involved. I can't describe the look, I know it when I see it.  

Fake online girlfriend?

I have a friend with an ADHD spouse who divorced her, saying he met someone online. After a period of time, he confessed to his sister that he made up the entire thing, the girlfriend, the Facebook page, their texts together... EVERYTHING. Why would anyone do this? Does anybody else out there have any experience with a lie taken to this HUGE extreme???

I can't imagine why anyone

I can't imagine why anyone would do something so hurtful. I guess his sister let everyone know what happened? 

The sister outed him

Yes, the sister outed him when she kept asking why there were no photos of them together on either of their Facebook pages. When she pressed him, he finally admitted he faked the photos, their respective "comments" about the photo, and he faked several locations "they" checked in together on Facebook. 

I did a bit of research, and found out that for a monthly fee, there are actual websites that will help you create your own fake online mate!  They advertise "All the benefits of a real online relationship with none of the baggage". The service even includes daily text messages from your "dreamboat" on a sliding scale, the more you want to pay, the more flirty texts you will receive! 

I Can Only Think of One Reason?

This sounds like a television sit com?  Really?  Like, "I'm going to make her Jealous...as a means to manipulate her and get her to become Jealous to make her want him more?  Doesn't that sound like some really "dumb" sit-com script?  You know, with the friend, giving advise like saying "Oh, don't be too eager and play hard to get?"  And then, they find some good looking "surrogate date" and show up where that person is while they are on a date with someone else..and make this appearance with "Fabio" the "surrogate date"...so that person see's them as more attractive so they will want them more?  That sounds like High School mentality......straight out of some "Teenage High School" sit com drama?

And of course, it all falls apart, and then they actually get together in the end but not until they Hate each other first...and then fall in Love at the end and they live happily ever after?  How many old Doris Day....Rock Hudson movie scripts...used that formula in the story?  Sounds like a High School Horror reality TV show in real life to me?  Yikes!!   Only on "Reality TV" or a Soap Opera would you see that kind of non-sense not in real life but I guess, there are some out there like this who would stoop that low and think this would work or actually think it would be Okay to use people like that?  And the fact that they "use" Fabio.....as window dressing and with no intention on actually being a real date or that this person is not even interested in Fabio and just use them like that....says a lot about that person in my mind?  Shallow end of the gene pool......very shallow indeed.  But that's just in the movies.......this guy didn't have a "Fabio" ( or the female equivalent ) and just made one up to make her jealous which is not much better in what it appear he was doing?

J

Hi J

He didn't do it to make her jealous, I don't think. He first announced that he wanted a divorce. He is in his sixties, and they had been married over 30 years. Anyway, he never revealed the "existence" of the online "girlfriend" until after he said he wanted a divorce, and that there was nothing to "work out". 

Well after about a year of being single, with the divorce having ravaged his (and her) finances, he says he wants to come back home. 

Yes, "reality" can be stranger than fiction...you can't make this stuff up!

Ah Yes......I Think I May Know?

It's a guess, but I've actually had this happen to me so It might be similar?  I don't actually know the motivation, but after I was divorced (and I have heard this before with others )...my ex wife, made it a point, to tell me that she went of this wild camping excursion with her sister and they had this wild time and people there ( a large group ) were having sex together and even 3 -somes and everyone got drunk and it was great blah blah blah......I didn't get she said she was in on the 3 -some but she implied that lots of people there were frolicking around and running around naked which made it sound like some big group orgy or something?

Okay, so you have to understand one thing about her. I tried to take her camping ( one time ) with friends and she almost stayed inside the tent the whole time and was really almost afraid of getting dirty and the whole thing was just not to her liking at all?  So we basically never went camping again and she said she didn't really enjoy it and I was a little disappointed but what the hey?  I still went camping  with my friends when we felt like it and that was fine with her?  I didn't go camping all the time and leaving her alone at home.  More like a couple three times a year at most and sometimes only once or twice as an annual thing with the guys?

And again, when I talked with her at a different time when she had a new boyfriend....she made it a point to tell me that she was cooking and the two of them cooked together and how she like doing that?  Okay, again...she never cooked with me and I did all the cooking and she never really showed any interest at all....so what is this all about?  What is up with telling someone you decided to leave...that NOW, with these new people or with her sister...she's camping and cooking and even doing it with her "new guy"?  Like rubbing your nose in it?  I kind got the impression...that she may have been embellishing a bit on the camping trip  ( playing it up bigger than it was....I've camped for years in lots of different places and she was making it sound almost unbelievable with the emphasis on sex? Making sure I knew that part even though she didn't admit that she was part of it?  More implied...like "name dropping" kind a sort a?

So why tell me all of this?  What purpose does it serve?  Do you think, I would really appreciate that and she was trying very hard to protect my feelings?  It's not that it hurt my feelings as much  ( aftter that much time ) but the point was to tell me specifically and very pointedly....that everything "I" was not getting from her and what she didn't want to do with me....she was NOW doing with other poeple and having fun with it?  The message was pretty clear?  "I'm doing these things NOW, because YOU were no fun...or because something to do with YOU.....but now I'm doing it...and you can't have any?"

I heard this before from other people too?  As soon as their spouse gets divorced from them.....then they start doing the very thing that they wouldn't do, but now with other people?  And they go out of their way to let them know that after the fact?

It sure sounds intentional....and the intention is to hurt your feelings and make you feel bad whether it works or not.....it's the reason why and what they are trying to do?  I think it's in part, just petty...and in part...just sour grapes and an attempt to tell you in a back handed way....just how lousy or what a lousy "partner you were":?  With that intention in mind?  That's what I got out of that...even though , all that did was tell me "gee, I'm glad I don't have to deal with that any more?"  That's really all it did with me but it was wierd and it seemed very intentional with the aim to hurt?  Maybe that's really what that was?

J

He complained about not getting enough attention

I think you might be correct, J. My friend's X would complain how nobody in the family appreciated him. He was unemployed for years, and sat at home and complained about everyone else's busy lives, and how his wife was  "no fun" anymore. His wife worked full time to support them and their two kids for years. I think he didn't feel attractive or appreciated in his real world, so he started taking testosterone injections, created an entire virtual world (he was addicted to video games, like the ones where you build your own village), then  he created a virtual girlfriend, thinking that his x-wife could see how nicely he was being treated by the new "girlfriend" in his new (fake) life....Sad!

My ex lied sometimes but not

My ex lied sometimes but not in this way.  However, your description of your husband sounds a lot like my best friend's spouse.  He seems to take pleasure from lying to her.  Glee, in fact.

Oh yes-this goes on in my

Oh yes-this goes on in my house too.  Once my DH gave a friend of his our debit card without my knowledge and the friend racked up $400 worth of charges.  DH stood there while I argued on the phone with the bank that these were not our charges, I had no idea where they came from etc.  It took him several days to tell me he had given the card to a friend who needed money.  Never mind that we had two small children, I was an at home mom and we had literally just bought a condo weeks before.  And then he wouldn't ask the guy for the money back and when I did, DH was FURIOUS.  Another time he bought a car without telling me and when we got papers from an attorney suing us for the money I didn't know we owed he had a gigantic bizarre story for that too.

  My DH lies as easily as he breathes.  In my case, I suspect it is a combo of a few things: impulsiveness--whatever comes to mind and is the easiest (of course that does not account for the premeditated nature of your experience), the desire to avoid any uncomfortable feelings of any kind and the need to look good.  The props thing with your guy is definitely a whole new level of lying.  I also think many of our ADHD people get a great deal of satisfaction from "gaming the system"--they think they are the smartest, most clever person ever that has figured out how to get away with something.  I'm not explaining that well, but I have read many posts that seem to fit into that category, like they are the best/smartest/know the most/ most valuable at whatever EVEN with lots of evidence to the contrary.  Many of our ADHD people seem to take great pride in being opposite, doing things an odd (they call it CREATIVE) way, bucking the system, making a new plan.  My DH sure functions this way.  If there is a longer, less efficient way to do something I can assure you THAT is the way he will pick but he thinks he is being super clever.  Like rather than just say he is going out with friends to a bar, your DH invents this big story that makes him look like a terrific helpful guy, not a slacker at a bar.  The lunches with vendors--perhaps he doesn't want you to know he pays for them?  I have no idea--I cannot figure out how the ADHD brain works at all.

I do know how you feel, unfortunately.  I do not believe pretty much anything that comes out of DHs mouth at this point.

At the time my H made up the

At the time my H made up the story about fixing a flooded crawl space, we were not arguing about going out to after work happy hours.  In fact, the argument was that I wish I had time for after work happy hours also.  The argument I was making at the time was that I didn't care if he went out with friends - everyone needs that - but he never included me or made plans with me to do other things and it hurt. In any case, the message I received loud and clear was that he wanted to do what he wanted to do when he wanted to do it without regard for my feelings or anything I had to say - up to and including lying to get it. I'm not saying I get flashbacks, but I still remember it and how it made me feel.  In a sense, I never really got over it.  It was both neglectful and disrespectful. I was only asking him to be an adult person and tell me honestly what he was doing and have a real conversation to bridge the gap and make everyone happy. So, I guess the lying was to avoid me in every sense both physically, as a friend and as a partner. That still weighs on me like a stone. 

AdeleS6845.......What's the Problem Here?

As I read this, it seems pretty clear to me what the problem is here so I will simply ask you the question?  Is the problem that he lies ( as you said...the only thing he's lied to you and he did it on 3 separate occasions ).  Okay then, that seems to have narrowed it down doesn't it?  If he doesn't lie about anything else but this ONE thing......then is he a liar, or is there a problem somewhere else?

Sounds like YOU have a problem with Pot and he simply doesn't?  I live where it's legal now, so that really changes your perspective on it?  It has completely opened up this discussion to what are the benefits and what are the "cons" or down sides since "illegality by law" is no longer at issue?  I mean, there are stores like 7-11's....right on the street where you can walk in a by it so that is simply no big deal anymore?  No stigma involved and it's the same as buying alchohol?  In fact, if you had to choose between alchohol and Pot..and which one is worse.....Alchohol is WAY WORSE!!  OMG!!  Traffic deaths, Alchoholoism, violent family abuse, death destruction and mayham and ruined lives!!

And coming from smoking in the past, and now revisiting it again and seeing it more from a medicinal stand point....it actually does have some legitmate benefits as long as it is done responsibly and not a complete addiction where that person is "stoned" from the minute they wake up and until they go to bed at night?  Even then ( in my own expereince )  people appear to function pretty well under those circumstances and mainly the poeple I've seen who do it that way are really self medicating for anxiety and needing it just to keep that under control?  
And eliminating that scenario....which is fewer people out there like that in my experience....the worst case scenario usually is.....that person is really laid back and mellow and doesn't cause much of a problem for anyone?  They become the opposite of violent, less aggressive, less hostile and less of everything that Alcohol actually makes worse.   Instead of becoming more "uninhibited" like Alchohol does....it tends to make people more inhibited which if "inhibition" is the problem already, it actually helps bring that down some and make them mellower and easier to be around if they are really uninhibited already?  The exact opposite effect as Alchohol does which can really be seen as only a good thing for someone who is like that already?

So I ask you......what's the problem here?  If you are making this a deal breaker.....I'd say you might rethink this some and ask yourself why YOU have a problem with it....when so many other people simply don't?  I suppose, if you live where it;s still illegal, that might be a legitimate concern, but the fact is where I live and even when it was "decriminilized".....I actually once was right in the middle of smoking it with some friends and a cop walked up behind me and caught me red handed while I still had it in my lungs and I  blew it out with him standing two feet from me?  And ....he did nothing about it.  He was approaching us for another reason and wasn't interested in what we were doing at the time?  And most of the other stories from friends have all said the same thing?  It's more a hassle for them to write the ticket and show up in court than it;s worth so most of the time, they just take it from you and send you on your way?  That was while it was still de-criminlized "illegal" like a parking ticket?  No big deal?  I only heard of one person ever...actually getting that fine ticket....but that was due to the fact that he was speeding, had open containers ( beer ) in the car and was driving all at the same time? 

And the point is not to sell you or anyone on Pot for yourself...the point is saying that the "illegitimacy" or "illegality" of it...is kind of a joke.  Even for the cops in states where it is illegal?  More a hassle for them, to have to write the ticket and they got bigger fish to fry and it;s simply not worth it for them either?  At worst...it's  a parking ticket...and that's not a lot to worry about all things considered?  Even IF...they actually gave you one.....which, like I said...I only heard of one instance ever....but that guy had broken a whole bunch of laws at the same time and they were throwing the book at him?

So, in respect to how you feel about it....I don't want an answer to the question....but I think it's a legitimate question to ask and answer for yourself and why you feel this way about it?  I do have a completely different perspective now on it....since it's completely legal here where I live..and you can buy it at the corner 7-11 type store just like anything else?  That changes everything as far as how everyone sees it here....and no one seems to be too worried about it, and no one is complaining as far as I can tell?  Just a fact....and the way things really are?  Unless of course...you live in a very restrictive place....where the penalties are severe and their are severe consequences by the law?  That would be legitimate and a legitimate concern....expecially if he has it in his car or is driving around while doing it?  That is still illegal and is still not acceptable any where I know of?

J

PS   This open market concept and all the different products that are emerging have a lot of "edible consumables" that are have talored doesages along with the other chemicals in the cannibus that have been shown to help with another of things from pain to anxiety and some real specific benefits all things considered?  You don't have to "smoke it'....so even that down side has been considered and it really does work?  A friend gave me a "gummy bear" that she had for anxiety and it really did help and was really just a mild effect that didn't slow me down or make me "stoned".   You might actually have an open conversation with him and ask him possibly the way he feels it helps him?  There are now, so many different forms and different purposes they are finding that perhaps there is more too it that he really finds helpful and you are making that conversation impossible due to your attitude towards it?  Perhaps....you are forcing him to choose between something that actually helps him legitimately...and you which is not really giving him a chance because you mind is already closed to this kind of discussion?

I mean really?    They prescribe one of the most potentially dangerous ( if abused ) substances ...a class A drug namely "Amphtamines" for ADHD and that's Okay...but Pot which is like "milk toast" in comparison...is some big deal?  That makes no sense in my mind....that's seems pretty silly to me?

Example

Removed 

That's Different in Light of What You Said

I was taking what you said, and simply pointing out the fact that he has only lied about this ONE thing and nothing else?  Like I said....that narrows it down to just this ONE topic which simplifies it in terms of where the conflict is?  But as you are saying it now, the conflict is the Lie itself.  Lying period...ever, for no reason and this is completely unacceptable and will not be tolerated for any reason?  It's not about the Pot, as I hear you?  It's simply that he lied ....and that is the deal breaker?  Lying in it, and by itself?

Okay, I get it.  Sorry for the confusion....I thought it was about Pot.

J

AdeleS6845 You Might Find This Interesting?

I've been doing a private sort of research out of my own curiosity...which in part, entails my own frustration and even times of feeling hurt or offended by something somewhat intangible but very real?   This is something that involved nearly all my relationships with people and most importantly...my own family members to get right to it?  I have always felt....there are two kinds of people out there...and with me, kind of being stuck in the middle between the two so this has become more than just a frustration but in fact....a source of deep feelings of separation and make to feel "different' and not fitting in?   I have noticed this, and experienced it everyone I go...and it is distinctly obvious to me...and now I think I have some answers to this?  And for the most part,  this really comes to light in terms of "social norms" and acceptance and how these two different "types" conflict with one another?  

And with this huge political conflict and discussion going on with this one "extreme" group that is in office right now ...."President Trump" and his entire cabinet and the Republicans that go along with this conservative ideology.....this makes for the perfect crucible...to study this and test my hypothesis to see if I am correct?  This opportunity really came when I went on FaceBook for the first time ever...and found myself in the middle of a shit storm of conflict....that I did not expect?  And also saying....finding out that many of the friends I've had in my past once I found them and discovered just how different they are now compared to the past......these people that I once knew....seemed to fall squarely into one category or another...and this I found absolutely fascinating to me?

And really what showed itself more than anything....was how, trying to stay in the middle of this shit storm...and how these two groups reacted to certain comments I've made ( or not made ) and how if I changed positions and take a "side"...how the other side treated me.....and then vise versus?  It seemed very strange and very weird to have to defend myself from both sides just to remain in the middle?  Like....you can't just be in the middle.....they won't' let you be there and they want to to pick a side or to challenge you to.....and then you are automatically criticized and ostracized by the opposite side?   And then if you jump ship and move to the other side....then you start to lose the support you got from the side you were on?  I found this to be kind of bizarre...so I started testing the waters and doing this with intention to see what kind of reactions I would get?  It appears....there is no.....not picking a side and taking a position  where there is a fight going on that has no answer for?  In the big picture....there is no "Truth in the middle" as you are saying? 

I just thought you might find this interesting, since I think I can see the real problem here or conflict between your BF and you?  It appears to me....you are squarely on one side of this dilemma...which is what really came through to me?  In fact....I might say you are the polar opposite of your BF in this...and this goes a  lot deeper than you might think?  This political environment...which is where these extremes show themselves....is really a more of a biological genetic difference in people as I kind of suspected?

I might suggest, you take a look at this and apply it to what you said about lying and the truth?  I really think you might have this wrong?  There is no "Truth in the middle".....there are actually two Truths and they are diametrically opposed to one another?  You just happen to be on one side.....and your BF just happens to be on the other side?  I also might add in here....unless you can come to the middle...and your BF can see this too......then there is no resolution here for you..and you should find someone new?  There are two distinct parts of the brain in play here....and one is right side thinkers....( conservative..black and white concrete types ).....and the the more liberal....creative, neurotic and artistic types like me? 

This appears to be a predilection or born in quality...that goes back to our genetic survival programming and where each person falls?  The middle ground is where you ultimately want to be....but if you are "stuck" on one side or the other....then I think it will never work?  Being forced to take a side.....I have to default to the side that speaks more to me than anything else?  This is sad for me to do, since I see some value in the other side, but not to the extrme?  In fact...I see no value what so ever....in being on one side or the other and this is what is most frustrating?  That you cannot be....in the middle?  Poeple want you to be on one side or the other and my brain just doesn't work that way?  There is no way.....I can see the point of view,  of the extreme opposite sides ( either one )  in fact I have some really strong opinions and some really strong feelings against the opposite extreme or the side that I tend away from because of their prejudicial and judgemental stance is very aggressive in nature.  It appears much more violent and hostile to me, and it shows in the personalties of the people who subscribe to that side?  In a general way....it appears rigid and unbending.  This idea that what is best for the few....out weighs what is best for the many...goes contrary to everything I believe in...so that simply does not work for me?   At best it's exclusive...and not inclusive...simply  put?

And this really shows itself in my mind when you look at the Conservatives in Power now?  They appear completely self serving, they don;t appear to care about anyone but their own interests and it appears they don't care about hurting people and can do so easily in service of themselves?  What appears most important to them, is aggression, hostility, and predudice across the board?  A strong need for "sameness"...and things ":never changing"...which goes directly against my idea of a good open relationship that takes in consideration the "whole"...and does not take on this "us against them attitude?"  "Either you are with us.....or you are against us".......which kind of shows in how you worded this and making this or reducing it saying "some believe it's evil"...and some thinks it's harmless".   I'm not seeing it that way at all....but what I see more, is the fact that "harm" and "evil" and saying there is a debate going on?  As if ...there is some kind of adversary involved which is really what I found most fascinating when I went on FaceBook?   Beleiving there are 'good guys" and "bad guys"......in this kind of way of seeing it? 

What I find most evil ...if you want to get right to it?  Is the idea or notion that people are "all good" and "all bad"....and there are good guys and bad guys out there and people fall into one catagory or the other?  Either you are with us...or against us?  That is what I find most evil and destructive of all?  I simply don't see things that way....it is so full of fear and paranoia....that it can get out of hand?  Thinking that people are "ALL ONE WAY"......is very limiting in my mind?  Limiting and restrictive....and full of fear?

I have come to find really more than anything esle....that is there is a bad guy here in anything?  It's "Fear"...in itself.  "Fear" is what is at the heart or core of this problem....and fear can make people imagine, all manner of things that are not real or even happening?  Paranoia.....runs deep with fear and paranoia can make people do some crazy things sometimes?   That...and make people think some crazy thoughts to go along with that fear?

I just went toe to toe with a battle with fear with my wife....so I know what I am talking about here?  I'm of the mind that says the same thing FDR said...."The only thing we have to fear....is fear itself"  I'm thinking he was really on to something there?  You can't move to the middle....if you are afraid in my mind? 

The counter balance to fear...is courage simply put.   That's just my opinion of course, but I do think it relates directly with lying?

Negative Bias and Fear  http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/07/biology-ideology-john-hibbin...

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/02/brain-difference-democrats-r...
 

J

Vabeachgal....I think it's fear....

Most people lie because of their "fear" of being brought into the light...(the truth)....It's the human dilemma....Sin begets Sin...My grandson is 20 months old and he will go find a private place to poop...Private as in the corner with you seeing him....And when he comes back around and starts playing...His mother will ask him if he has poop in his pants and he always shakes his head no, the (precious) little liar...LOL..LOL.....

It's always about the alternative for liar's.....(a person who has no conviction to be truthful)....What is going to make me the most vulnerable....

Yep we all want to feel good about ourselves....Some of us just accept more options to try to make it happen.....

C

What vabeachgal describes

What vabeachgal describes doesn't sound to me like "fear lying."  It sounds like "pleasure lying."  

I'm Thinking This Sounds Kinda Familiar Too

One of the daughters at my last job ( kind of reminded me of Ivanka Trump ) and he dad the owner kinda reminded me of DT himself?  A little bit on both accounts and the daughter was actually a really nasty not nice person when you got right down to it?  She was extremely spoiled and pampered and got anything she wasnted?  Veruka Salt....from Willy Wonka....fit is to a T?  She was, what I call...a "pathological liar" since she lied for no reason, she just lied all the time?  An mostly...she would just lie, to get her way no matter what she did...and even when she didn't have to....she would lie to cover her ass just in case?  She was always going behind her parents back..and she was always up to no good or in service of herself?  Her parents finally got her since she left her emial on her desk top open..and her mom ( who worked there ) read her whole email account and exchanges with her boyfreind at the time?  She was kinda like a female Eddie Haskel....if you can picture this?  She was sweet as pie "in a kinda phoney way" in front of everyone and the customers and employees....but as soon as you had your back to her....she would go behind your back and spread all kinds of horrible rumors around?  Mostly...as a means to scapegoat people to avoid getting caught doing thingss she knew she wasn't suppose to do?

When her mother read her emails.....the emails revealed:  she was doing Cocaine with her boyfriend and she was telling him to get more and more and when and blah blah blah.  She and her boyfriend, would lock the bedroom door...so her 3 year old son wouldn;t come in and catch them doing Cocaine and partying all night long...which eventually the little boy said something about "mommy locking her door" which just played into this long list of admissions.....which ended with the topper which said something like......"and my parents have no idea....I told them I was going to my sisters house"......kind of like "and the coast is clear".

Can you imagine.....your the mother, and reading about your darling little girl...and not knowing any of this..with that "and my parents have no idea" on top of it? LOL  Talk about busted?  And she was using the company credit card for clothes and partying which is illegal and embezzeling, some items went missing from the store and ...low and behold, her little boy actually like playing with mommies stuff and took those very items to work one day, and Grandmother saw him playing with them and went to check to see what they were?  Gee...the missing items somehow came back to the store....via her 3 year old son who actually stole them from mommiy? LOL   It was almost comical....how really stupid she was....but within all her back dealing and "doing things  behind her parent back as well as working her devious dealings and blaming them on others...she would just lie..and just make stuff up so often and so much...that she couldn't keep track of them all?

And when she did get divorced...and her ex-husbands attorney ordered a physche evaluation...since she lied about him and what he had done...so she could get full custody by saying her ex was abusive and did all these horrible things?  This is kinda hilarious since it was so ridiculous.  After the psyche evaluation...she walked in and was completely incensed...announcing in this kind of "how dare they" attitude "I can't believe what the interviewer said to me??  He asked if I thought I was special...and I said "of course" ( LOL )  and then told me what ( her ex husband said about her ) and I said...."Well....he's lying".....and then he said "Well, how do I know, you're not lying?"   And I was so offended?  I can't believe the nerve of that guy!!!"  ( LOL )

And when the final judgment came down from the court custody case....the judge, awarded FULL custody...to the father, and told her that what she was doing ( we never heard what that was of course ) was tantamount to child abuse and she not only didn't;t get full custody....but she lost the custody suit that she was pushing for and wanted since her ex-husband only wanted to have spit custody 1/2 the time anyway?  He didn't;t even want full custody and begged her to drop the law suit?

So ironic really?  And my T told me, that for the court to award the father full custody especially in this state....she had to have done something really wrong for the judge to do that which was pretty unusual? And no one really knows the full story there....but the point I'm making is....this gal lied....like smoking a cigarette?  All the time, and for no good reason....but mostly I'm not sure if pleasure was her goal ( even though she like to back stab people for pleasure ) mostly, if you crossed her or did anything to her to stand in the way of what she wanted...she would run and tell on you...."tattle tale " and lie to basically punish you for your misbehavior and offense?

One time early on when she first came to work where I worked when she got our of college...she came to me and wanted something done, 15 minutes before closing time?  And I ( being the foreman ) simply asked  "Um...you know it's 15 minutes before closing time? I mean, is the customer going to be at the door right when we open?  If not....might we do this in the morning instead?  We normally don't do work when we are trying to shut the shop down?  Could it wait until the morning?"  Which, was a very nice way of saying that what she was asking for was completely out of line?  The store policy that her father created for eveyone was to never do what she was asking which I did not include thinking that would be like rubbing her face in it?  The fact was, we had already turned off all the equiptment, and the reality was....the job could have waited....it didn;t need to be done right then?

When I came to work the next morning....her father took me aside and told me that she came to him and said I yelled at her and was rude to her and he ordered me to go an apologize to her? ( like OMG??? )  So, I reluctantly went to her  but of course we both were there only 16 hours before...so I simply said...."gee, I didn't think I yelled at you about that job, but your dad told me to come make ammends with you?"

And she said...."Oh, there was no problem....I didn't tell my dad you yelled at me?  It was fine...I didn't do that?"   

Sure thing Eddie Haskel? LOL   You can bet your life, she did exactly what her father said?  Why else would he say to go apologize to her?  That was about 10 years...before her mother read all her emails and the shit hit the fan?  Her ability to lie and get away with it after all of that....was seriously undermined! LOL  She was the worst....pathological liar...I have ever met in my life?  Even for no reason and when it didn't matter?  She just lied....just to lie?  Is that the weird kind of lying that you are talking about VA?  Lying for no reason it appeared?  Very much like Donald Trump?  He does the same thing if you want to compare this to what I'm saying?  Pre-emptive lying...just in case?  But it always comes back to bite him in the ass...but he just keeps doing it?  The same...with little missy Verruca Salt at work?  A little bit like Invanka, which she reminds me of too?  Very similar family dynamic...very similar personalities as well and Veruca...was Daddies favorite...who could do not wrong? ( until she left her email open ) that was quite a shock to her parents...even though we'd been seeeing it for quite a long time before that.  Things only went from bad to worse with her?  And this started a long time before that?  Years before, when she was in High School....she snuck out of school and back into a tree with her parents truck...and her father asked if I would keep it over night since the rear window was broken and it was raining outside and I lived only a mile from where it was?

And as I heard later....she lied about that too and said it was her friend?  As it turned out....her friends father called her father...and straightened that out as well as telling her father that his daughter was not allowed to do anything with her again?  And on top of it....I was swimming once and talking to someone in the locker room, and I mentioned the work place and a man there chimed in and said that he was one of the teachers at their private school?  I was mentioning the story in brief about the car window and he hadn't heard of that before but I didn't mention names?  The teacher before I left came over and asked...."was it Veruca ?( not her real name ) ?"...and I said "yes, how did you know?"   All he said was that he didn't know, that's why he asked but he was just curious?  I didn't push as to why he wanted to know?

There you go...the history of a pathological liar and the only stories I know?

J

C........I Agree About Fear, Being at the Core Here

And as I was saying or talking about pathological lying and the example I gave with the daughter at work, it did remind me of one thing that I forgot to mention?  Not all "sales jobs" or even selling involves lying pe se...but the lines get kind of murky...in "sales" for sure?  I mean, if you were to tell the truth the customer...and say "We only paid x or this...so I'll sell it to for Y and I only make $20...on a $1000 dollar item?  I paid $980 and I'll sell it to for $1000 and I make $20 ....is that Okay with you?  Does that sound fair?

Are you nuts?  Do you think...if you ever heard that, that this person is telling the truth?  Of course not?  No salesperson is going to be completely honest in how much they make, how much they paid and how much they are willing to sell a used car in a cut throat sales job like that?  In fact...normally...they wouldn't be telling you all of that...especially if they weren't lying to you?  Bascially,  on a daily basis for the last 38 years.....I have heard every story and sales pitch about products be sold, and the bulk of these creative means to get people to buy things are complete and utter fabrications?  Not all  and not every salesperson does this....but within the stories and even the little additons about products being sold, I heard things that made me cringe..as I walked by and listened?  To the point, that my last boss didn't want me coming out to help, because many times they had alreayd established some creatife non-truth and they didn't want me walking into it...and actually saying what was real?  I never discussed money anyway ( not part of my job description ) but there were times when I had to...and this made the sales people look really bad if I didn;t know that ahead of time?  For someone who bascially BS's for a living....after years and in the Art of BS sales pitches....closing becomes more important than the truth..and this is where the lines get murkier andd murkeir as time goes on?  My father use to lie to me....just to see If I would catch him?  Just for sport and fun....the old "I wasn't born yesterday game?"  For his, he use to do that....just to see if I would catch him...and when I did catch him he would go...."took you long enough".  Just for fun?  Like that was his way of teaching not to be so gullible which didn't work and all that did was make me angry and not trust him?

But as I was thinking back myself to the times in my own home when I was trying to escape.  I use to lie so I could get out of the house...since if I didn't....I new the anser was no?  But I new I was lying..and I knew why I was lying and it was the fear of what I new was coming which "NO" was what I feared?

And for someone in denial...they don't even know they are lying?  But further as I thought about this more....there is another type of lie that is really just seeing things from a different perspective like the article I included on conservatives and liberals?  What came to mind here was in respect to fear...and you have a "fear biting dog".  If you have a "fear biting dog"..and someone walked up to give it a treat or to pet it in an effort to be nice to it.....that person will put their hand out thinking the dog with like it...and the dog might wheel around and bite you on the hand? 

Taking the postilion...of the dog...if that dog could talk....the dog would say "you tried to hurt me, you were reaching for my head and I bit you before you hurt me!!!"

If this case.....who is lying?  You or the dog?   Fear again...will really change how you see it, and change how you view lying once take a closer look at it?  In the case of the dog.....the dog misread your intention?  Is the dog wrong or is he just afraid?  If the dog wasn't afraid.....none of that wouldn't have happened and you would not have been bit?

J

fear of no?

J:

I will admit that I did more than skim your response but may not have given it enough attention so if I didn't get it - sorry.

I understand the fear of no and the desire to lie to avoid the no, i.e., lie to get out of the house because you know that the answer is no and that you want to do what you want to do....

I think I understand the fear you are describing.  Are you saying my husband is fearful of a "no" or being chastised so he preemptively lies?  I sort of get that.  It makes sense. Happens all the time.

As so often is the case on this forum, there is a lot of backstory that doesn't come out.  So, I hear and acknowledge what you're saying.  It's valid and correct, I think, in a lot of circumstances. Intuitively, if you put a child in a position of "having" to lie, they will lie. If they're not heard or validated or always rejected or told no, etc. 

Without going into more boring details, what I see from my H is lying to lie for not apparent reason.  Stupid stuff.  Stuff that doesn't matter except it does because it erodes trust and faith.  I spoke to his sister twice during our marriage about his lying.  She shared that he has lied since she can remember, especially when backed into a corner - sticking to the lies.  I see that.  Even when confronted with the truth, he REALLY sticks to the lie.  In these cases the lies are not precipitated by the actions of the person being bitten or the dog being fearful, they are just gratuitous lies. 

As background, even when he had a long leash, if you will, he still lied to me.  Again, details are not significant, except it happened so much about so many things.  At first I thought it was small things and then, of course, I found out about the big things.  He finally shared that sometimes things would go wrong at work and he wouldn't fess up to his share of the mess.  I guess what I'm saying is that I don't think I "gave him a reason" to lie to avoid my wrath or whatever and there wasn't a reason to bite me to avoid being hurt by me. Except now there is, because the lies have made me angry, resentful, bitter, fearful and well, pretty much a biaattchh sometimes. I really hate that feeling that way.  I feel that because of the chronic lying I don't have much of a choice.  My choice is to accept and ignore the lies and hope he isn't hiding any more big lies.... that's a - horrible horrible disgusting way to live.  Confront him which goes absolutely nowhere - see blame, denial, anger and distraction  My choice is what?  Live in a parallel universe where nothing that comes out of his mouth can be taken at face value and I ignore it? That doens't accomplish anything but a complete erosion of self esteem.  The ironic thing is that the person being bitten is blamed at the same time the person being bitten is devalued and self esteem is being torn to shreds by the lying  You cannot accept chronic lying without devaluing yourself in the process. 

It's not the environment I create because he lies in all environments. 

I get what you say.... and there are a lot of reasons for lying in a relationship and both people need to address the underlying issues.  I've spent the last year looking at this and I don't think it's dependent on what I do or don't do because he does it all the time with everyone.  He lies to me in order to go out to a bar with his best friend and he lies to his best friend about why he can't when the truth is he just doesn't feel like it or is super broke. 

I'm sure there's a lot of habit, fear and shame involved, but I don't think it's caused by the person being bitten by the dog.  In any case, after giving this long hard thought I am not accepting responsibility for his lies or believing that I somehow need to change or accomodate to eliminate lying from our marriage. I believe that is an ingrained part of his character.

It sounds like an addiction....

It does sound habitual and all the made up details are just his attempt to sensationalize it like it's a game....That's quiet scary to me....I don't think I would want to live w/ someone I couldn't trust to be truthful....I really hate you are dealing w/ this.... 

Same advice I gave another person

And that is to read In Sheep's Clothing by George Simon. If he's as you say, he's the manipulative type. It's actually becoming (if not already) the norm these days, even psychologists are aware of this growing problem. It didn't used to be, it's just encouraged these days by everyone and everything whether they are aware of it or not. The amount of times I've heard people say they would love to or love to study psychology because they get to learn about how to control people... I've even heard a teacher take this course on how to communicate influentially only to see multiple businessmen and politicians take the course too, using what they learnt during lunch to try get one over on another.

Anyhow if I'm correct, you need other tactics and this book tells you how to. It gives you their personalities, their tactics, stories to read to see if you're in the same situation and then how to put up with it.

If you want to read a sample of it, download the first chapter for free on kindle. Here's a sample from the first chapter:

'...when we fight unnecessarily, or with little concern about how others are being affected, our behavior ior is most appropriately labeled aggressive'.

'For a long time, I wondered why manipulation victims have a hard time seeing what really goes on in manipulative interactions. At first, I was tempted to fault them. But I've learned that they get hoodwinked for some very good reasons... because we can't point to clear, objective evidence they're aggressing against us, we can't readily validate our gut-level feelings'.

'Their explanations always make just enough sense to make another doubt... They know what buttons to push, when to do so and how hard to press'.

Here's something from Chapter 2:

'Covert aggressives [i.e. manipulative types]... fight for what they want and seek power over others in subtle, cunning and underhanded ways'.

Environment of Lying ......SMD

I was thinking through what you were saying, about this being a growing problem ( culturally ) as well as this "manipulative type".  My story of at my work place with the owner, the mother, the daughter and ( another daughter I didn't mention ) was actually the most educational learning opportunity I think anyone could have?  I worked there for 27 years...and watched the girls grow up from the time they were about 8 to 10 years old until they were in their 30's?  The mother and daughters were not working there when I started and quite a long time went by ( 13 to 14 years ) before suddenly....one day ( as it seemed and quite unannounced ) that there was mother and her daughter...and now they worked there??? Like huh???  That's exactly how it seemed with no warning ahead of time....and then they are there?  And two years later, the other daughter is there and now the entire family is working there which was like they brought there living room, and all the family drama right to work with them everyday?

I could write a book on the events and all the chaos and drama that this situation created...but what I noticed or said about the one daughter....really was no different than the mother in that respect?  She was, one of the most manipulative people I have ever met..and the amount of back stabbing.....going  behind the back of the father.....the lying, deciet ( with intention ) and the amount of manipulation going on was mind boggling to the employees who saw it and just kept their mouth shut for good reason.  If anyone said anything.....you were gone shortly after?  They were ALL.....playing both end between the middle and the worst offenders in this case was the one daughter but the mother in her own way....set the example for this?  She was a person....who could not take "NO" for an answer and the daughters were the same way because it? "NO" was the worst thing you could say to them...and so "NO" was never said?  This is the seeds and the making of a "yes" man since "yes" is the only acceptable answer....but with no regards for the results?  The entire environment was "dishonest" but dishonest not legally as much as morally and ethically?  You can be legally honest...and be completely bankrupted going the other way which seemed to be a way of life for these people and they all played by their own set of rules?  The problem...as I saw this over a long period of time was.....none of them saw anything wrong with it since they were all playing the game?  "Players" come form somewhere you know?  And of course...."sales jobs" and "making the sale"  fits into this line of work perfectly?  "Gamers" and "Players" make good salespeople and manipulation is the name of the game there which yeilds "postive results".

And since my job had nothing to do with sales in fact, I rarely talking directly to customers.....I sat in the back ground and watched this play take shape and this whole notion of "manipulation".."Players"....and "lying" seem to go hand in hand together?  And the reason for this is clear?  There is a pay off for them and a reward for being this way?  The "prize"....is in the "winning of the game" and it every man for themselves.....it's a dog eat dog world?  If you have to beg borrow or steal to get there....all is fair in Love and War...and those who cheat best....cheat to win?  If everyone is cheating....and racing for the prize....then this "law of the jungle"...and "environment of lying" is just an accepted part of it for them?

If you grew up in an environment, where there are "no rules".....then "anything goes"......"my the best man or woman" win?  And the prize is...."being better than the next guy at it".....I will screw you first....before you screw me?  And since every body is screwing every  body.....( both literally and figuratively ) then he who screws best.....screws last and wins the game?  Deception and betrayal....are just how the game is played?

So lying or even pathological lying as you might see it.....is just part of it?  I mean.....how could you play this game if you couldn't' lie?  I mean.....that would be stupid?  Lying is lying and lying is just what you do?  What else is there?

side note:  I'll tell you what else is there?  People like Kendra Harrison.  Winning with honor, courage and integrity.....where there are only winners....and no losers since every player in that world has heart.  That's how I see it, no matter which place you come in or finish?  Swimming saved my life, in more ways than one.

And that right there.....is where it comes from?  As I watched this happen...and watched how they ALL treated each other?  It was a way of life.....and the entire environment...and everyone in that enviroment did it too....or esle you would lose?  No one trusted anyone......"trust" is for losers and nice guys finish last?

Coming from the language.....( the unspoken language ) inside the cirlce of distrust?  If everyone is doing it.....then it isn't wrong?

And just to point out one more thing here?  To be a good salesperson and do this everyday for a living.....not taking "NO" for an answer....and pushing past the "NO" to make the sale....is defintiely a desireable thing in that kind of job?  Pushy, won't take no for answer,  Bulldog, immune to rejection, single minded, don't listen to the customer ( or disregard there protests or complaints or their hedging or doubt ) and talk them into it, create fear ( only one left.....last chance.....won't be here tomorrow ) and close, and close and close....and keep closing.....until they cave in and you convinced them...that they need your product and if they don't buy it from you.....it won't be there tomorrow.  Guilt, dissmissing, rejection and fear.....are all used as weapons in the hands of a skilled "player".  Sales, marketing and even advertising all use different forms of manipulation and fear.....to get you to buy their product?

And I can tell you from my own family member who was my father and what "got him off" more than anything else ( as a salesperson ) who came from the same world?  One up manship....getting the upper hand and getting the person to buy the product no matter how you got there.....alls fair in Love war and sales?

There was a name for this as he told me years ago......it's called "Schreiben".....means ( to write) in German.  Schreiben in that old school world as my own father described it.....was to see a dim whitted or unsuspecting "target" and when they walk up and ask to see the item.....you "whip out your pen and invoice" and start taking down the customers phone and address "AS IF" they already bought it?  All they did was ask to see it.....and you are already "writing them up" for the sale?  And then shoving that sale right down their throats to the point that now you work on the heartstrings and guilt and get them to "buy in" and actually " buy it"?

And as he explained....in the "old days".....the targets were usually "Blacks"...or .."Uneducated" White people who just "fell off the Trunip Truck.  They would spot the dumb ones or the weak ones....and run the "Schreiben" on them to get the sale?

And back in the day.....before there were laws against this......when the store owners gave credit....and the customers didn't make their payments.....my father said they use to run the "Dr Pepper" treatment on them since on the old bottles it had the number 2- 4 - 6 written on the bottles?  They use to call the customers at 2am....4am.....and  6 am......sometimes in the same night as a means to manipulate them in...to get the money from them?

Or.....they use to go over to the neighbors house and knock on the door and say "Do you know (Dave ) next door?  He owes us some money ....next time you see him, would you tell him we stopped by?"  My father said, these people would come fuming into the store..and just ream hinm out and scream at him....and he would just stand there and stand there and wait until they were done?  Sometimes for like 5 mintutes or more of just screaming and yelling and chewing him out?  And they when they stopped yelling.....he'd go  "well, now that you're here, can you make a payment?"  And he said 9 times out of 10....they did?  And THAT.........is all they cared about?  As long as hey got their money......nothing else mattered and they did that intnetionally, with forethought and with no regard for anything esle....except getting "the money".  It was these moments...that got my father off the most.  He loved that everytime ( even when he was getting screamed at.....that was the taste of victory for him )  One up-manship, was what it was all about and he loved doing that as much as actually selling to these poeple cause he got them coming and going as they say.  That is "winning and what a "winner" was...in his mind?  Same as Donald Trump?  See the pattern?  It's digusting in my mind, but that's just how I see it?

And the "player".....who played this game "best".....was the "winner".

That was straight out of the horses mouth ( first hand, straiight from the man himself )...along with a number of other lovely stories to go along with them?   And this was a "good thing"....until they passed laws to prevent it. ( as it was presented to me )

Think about those two stories...and compare what you see with our Presidnet and the language that he uses?  There are two kinds of people in this world......"winners" and "losers".  Players will always play....and losers will always lose in that world you can count on it?  That world exists....when you like it, agreee with it....or not?  I chose....not to play in that world, but I was a part in it and I knew how to play if I had to, but mostly, I stayed away from it as it went against what I believed was right and fair.  I'd say I actually "won"....from where I sit, but those on the other side would call me a loser since homey don't play that game?  I don't play games ...that's the point?  But I know this kind of "game" like the back of my hand since I was a part in it....not the player itself?  It sucks big time...and I really have quite a negative and strong feelings ( against ) people like this....but that was my choice? 

And the point I'm saying which was a source of major conflict between my father and I .....since I did not agree with him and I spoke out against this as he would tell me those stories and I paid a high price for saying how I felt about it because I felt it was wrong?  And I still do today?  Nothings changed on my account, I feel exactly the same way as I did back then?  I think it's wrong....that's all there is to say?  It's wrong, as I saw it from the inside...and was made privileged to this information, I just didn't buy in, that the point of me saying this.  This really makes me sad and it makes me feel like I am on the outside for this very reason?  I don't like it, and I never have....but apparently there are many who see nothing wrong with it?  More than I would like to think that do...but I keep getting smacked in the face with it and there is really nothing I can do about it but simply not play the game?  At great cost to me every time I fight against it, but on the other side of it it would appear, they simply do not care and it doesn't seem to bother them a bit?  Lying, is just part of playing this type of game.

J

 

denial embellishment or lies?

Wow there is so much to digest here.  My story....ex Significant Other XSO has ADD/DESR, all three siblings either ADD ADHD and three children with ADHD, two Ring of Fire (ROF) and one not specifically diagnosed yet (16).  I often thought of the "stories" as denial in covering up for denial, impulsiveness, recklessness and severe emotional outbursts. So many stories.....I'll give a flavor and ask for comment/advice.  We're both over 55...Our 3 year romantic relationship ended in October just a week after I received my first, last and only "I just wanted to say I love you" call from her. Mistakenly I jokingly asked her to marry me that weekend when I knew the answer would be no....then the wheels came off the bus. At the time XSO was letting her 21 year old son ROF, drive with no license or insurance but we'll get back to that.  The 26 ROF daughter was wedging her way back into moms life after being thrown out 6 months earlier.  That story: after 7 years she would finally be getting her bachelors degree.   who had been thrown out of the house 5 months earlier because I was making an appearance at the home on the weekend she was "graduating" was starting to wedge her way back into moms life, no problem there.  I just can't go on now....too painful.    The bottom line....I have gotten the HPV from this relationship.  It has turned to cancer because of some previous impulsive and reckless behavior on her part.  What to do?  My fear, her denial or embellishment that there's nothing wrong with me its the rest of the world.  I still love this person and believe I understand her better than anyone in her life before now.  My real fear is she continues along the same track and infects others.  I want to forgive, I want for her to be well but what to do? Thank you

Can you contact me?

Hi vabeachgal- can you contact me (I have that option set up). I want to compare notes to see if I am really dealing with this issue and my husband is bound to read any posts I make publicly.

I know you posted this a

I know you posted this a month ago but I wanted to reply. My husband has many different types of lies, the he forgot something but said he did it lie (then just never do it), the prop/involved lie and the lying for no reason about trivial things.  We were in a LDR 5,000 miles apart in different countries.  We had a fight one night on skype about him admitting that he's prone to having spur of the moment sex with people he just met. (Like 20 minutes of knowing them) It kind of repulsed me to be honest, so I told him my thoughts on it and he said some unpleasant things to me. Then told me I better forgive him for those unpleasant words or else he was going to hang up and forget about me and never talk to me again. Basically forcing a forgiveness or threatening me. Anyway, because I have no sense and codependant I "forgave" him.  Because of the time difference it was late morning there when we got off skype.  He told me he had to drive his parents to the golf club. Throughout the day I tried to get a hold of him but no reply on skype and he always has his phone with him constantly playing gameson it. I found that odd.  When I spoke to him 12 hours later he said he got sick on the way back from driving his parents to the golf club and had to pull over and throw up. I felt so bad for him and tried to comfort him. He said he came home and went straight to bed.  Flash forward almost a year later when I'm living in his country and hes' constantly lying about dumb stuff and I've resorted to playing detective I found a chat log in his google mail from a friend's girlfriend who he finds attractive. She tells him she's sorry he broke up with me and she'll take basically an hour long train ride to come see him to cheer him up. Which is a bit weird. (And his parents were gone during this, he is infact a 30 something year old guy if you're wondering about theliving with parents thing) So what he did for 12 hours with this girl I'll never know.  He said they sat on the couch, ate chocolate and talked. I doubt that. So there was no driving his parents anywhere, or getting sick or going to bed. He said he lied about her coming over because he thought I'd be afraid he'd be messing around with her....

 

Also had an incident when we first got together and I visited and I got STD checked before I came (I had not had a sex in many years but why not) and told him I was clean. I asked him to do the same. He said he did. Come to find out years later there was no records on the NHS of him ever having an STD check in his entire life. I pointed this out, he said he did it at another clinic and tried to make me feel bad about thinking he was a liar.  The next day he comes home late and says he stopped at that clinic 2 towns away and he was infact clean when he got it checked. I asked for proof then I got more run around and gulting me. I dropped it.  A year later I brought it up again and he admitted he never got it done and even after lying to me didn't get it done after that. To this day, five years together he's never had it done. I've had something downstairs for 2 years now that is probably a wart (TMI I know). The medical system here isn't great so I'm waiting until I move back to the states to get it looked at.

And this is only a few of his lies, he can't understand why I can't trust him and gets pouty.  His dad had I'm pretty sure narcissistic personality disorder and I wonder if he's got some symptoms as well. I'd love to know what causes this type of lying.

This type of lying.

There is much to share along the lines of your message.  You are not giving TMI, this is very serious and can be life threatening.  I have had 4 operations already in the last 3 months.  You can contact me through this venue.  If not I will write more at a later time.  Be Well, Be Strong.

Angie_H's picture

RE: Weird lying

Hi, vabeachgirl,

I just came across your post. My husband also lies about anything and everything. I think he developed this habit because he was always in trouble due to his ADD. It was far worse than that for our marriage. My husband didn't come to me with props, but he displayed a lot of behaviors similar to your husband's.

My husband cheated on me and tried desperately to cover it up with lie after lie. He has a long-standing pattern of not admitting something until he is so thoroughly caught that he can no longer deny it. That's how it was with the cheating. He did all sorts of hurtful things to cover his tracks, including picking fights to get me off the topic when I was getting too close to the truth, and gaslighting me, acting like I was crazy. We went for couples counseling with a famous sex addiction specialist, and my husband convinced him I was crazy, that he wasn't doing anything. Since then my husband got effective help, and we are still married.

He still lies about small things and says I'm mistaken when I call him on them. I often think he is out of touch with reality. I try to keep him reminded of what really happened, or what he said that he now says isn't so. It's a challenge.

My one piece of advice is to trust your gut and stay in reality yourself. I was so much in denial that I let my husband get away with cheating on me, even though I was sure he was doing it. I waited until I caught him, no denying it, until I did anything to stop it.

All the best,

Angie

   

Thank you for the comments.

Thank you for the comments.  I hope everything with your husband is in a good and stsble place.   You are right.  I  went crazy with the lies and gaslighting until I  decided he didn't have the right to define my reality.   He sure stuck with his lies. I am sure it represents a lifetime of maladaptive behavior for always bring wrong or not doing something.   I don't accept his lies anymore and that includes not accepting non intentional lies ie future broken promises..  when he says he will do something I reject his promise and tell him I  doubt he will do it and instead say what I  will do.  There are some who will take exception to that tactic but it does take away some of the manipulative power of his lies.  When he mskes a future broken promise,  he gets to feel goodabout himself while I  feel crushed later by the broken promise.  For my own sanity, I  short circuit that tactic now.

 

He did definitely take advantage of my trusting nature.  I  told him it changed me.  I m no longer that way but he did rob me if one of my better attributes.