Submitted by SunshineSC on 01/25/2016.
Question? What else can I do to break the "mothering" trap?
Right now, I don't pick up his clothes on the floor, I don't carry his dishes to the dishwasher, I am not putting his clothes in the hamper so they aren't getting washed by me because they aren't in the proper place and I am not mentioning it. I am not reminding him to do anything. Just flat out not mentioning it.
What else should I be doing?
Be Direct, Don't Assume and Follow Through With What You Say
Submitted by kellyj on
Hi SunshineSC,
Speaking from the experience of being on the other side of things here. I'll start by asking...what KIND of mother are you or were you being before? An enabling mother who:
- walks on eggshells and was afraid to speak assertively or afraid if you said anything it might go badly for you? (worried about the fact that he might not like what you had to say and in turn....wouldn't like YOU ...if you actually spoke the truth?)
- and therefore...is easy to manipulate and "pull the wool over your eyes" because you are being emotionally dishonest and not speaking the truth? If you've ever witnessed this dynamic in kids and their parents and watched how kids try and manipulate parents to get "their way"....and the parents let them get away with it? Think how well an adult who is put into this position can do this? Better than any kid I assure you and twice as deceptive!
Speaking from how this makes you feel from the other side of things when someone tries to do this with you.....insulting. Just like the kids who are in the same situation......they can tell when someone is not being emotionally honest and up front with them which is why they act out and are passive aggressive. Because it insults their intelligence and disrespects them for thinking that you can try and fool them and pull the wool over their eyes. In turn.....they do the same thing right back and you see them as the problem not the enabling parent.
If you are running scared and not saying what you are trying to do because you are afraid of the consequences actually saying exactly how you feel in a direct and mature manner and instead.....trying to run interference by trying to control the situation (or him in this case), in a passive indirect approach but failing to tell him that this is what you are doing straight up. It doesn't take a genius ( or even a kid for that matter ) to rather quickly figure out what you are trying to do and then figure out a way to work around you and get away with not having to change by manipulating you right back)
It's what kids (big and little) do...or rather....it's what people (tend to do on different levels do)... when you are put into a position of feeling the same way as you did back when you were a kid even when you're an adult. By default....you regress to the same old behaviors but just on a more sophisticated level...that's pretty close to being exactly what you do without even knowing your doing it.
Turn that around to the example of being a firm but loving parent who only has the child's best interest in mind. Kids know that too when they feel it and even if they don't like something or don't always get what they want from what they are told to do in the moment....the consistent part that never goes unnoticed is the part about being "in their best interest" not necessarily of the parents....or....sometimes at the parents expense to be that way ie: children don't always like their parents (or like it when they stopped from getting what they want) even when they know their parents are right and know what they did was not what they were suppose to be doing.
In the case of picking up after your husband however....you don't want him to "stop" doing something....you want him to "start" picking up after himself. That's a doing thing not a "not doing" thing right?
When you want someone to "stop doing something"....you put a system of "punishment" in place to try and prevent it and to serve to reinforce and discourage the offense for the future ie: the offense to the boundary (or stated rule)... and the behavior that it violated.
If you want someone to "start doing something" ( that violated the same boundary or rule) that is hard for them to do or they don't want to do it for the same reason......what is needed is encouragement and motivation to do it on their own and a "reward" system in place which serves to reinforce the behavior for the future with the goal of "nurturing" the same behavior again in the future in an on going basis.
If you are being an enabler....there's no encouragement, punishment, motivation or reward for starting in the first place? An enabler is a 'sabatour" to the process itself... and only uses "manipulation and coercion" as the only means of trying to get what they want which involves another person. It neither serves the other person in doing anything constructive or motivating them to change....and only serves to keep the status quo exactly the same by not allowing the person who has to change (even if they wanted to) a chance to do it in the first place.
If they do it under those conditions ( through coercion ) with little other choice....it will be done with resentment, not willingly and with a fair amount of anger along with it all things considered? Passive aggression meets passive control and manipulation techniques ie: coercion, shaming, quilting etc.... will almost be a given in that case and it will come out at some time in one form or another....guarenteed.
Like I said....even a kid knows it when it's happening and no one likes this feeling no matter who you are. Most people under those conditions....will withdraw and say "forget you"....or possibly something a little stronger if you know what I mean?:)
What your doing is fine right up to the part of actually saying what you are doing....why you are doing it....how you are dong it....and then standing firm if it's what you believe and know its true. He might not like it but.....he can get over that part if what you are doing he knows is right and will figure that out as he realizes where the fault or blame really lies especially if he goes to find clothes to wear or things he needs and finds them dirty or lost in a pile of crap and he can't function the same any more?
The shame and guilt that was attempted to be foisted on them by someone else.... will fall right where it belongs in this case if you said these things to him straight up to begin with ( by predicting this ahead of time and saying that too if necessary) and he finds you were right about that too. All by simply being direct and saying all of this up front ahead of time and just sitting back and watching it happen.
But you have to follow through with what you say and allow it to happen on it's own. You cannot control that part....all you can do is wait and allow him to come to the same conclusion for himself. By saying it up front however....you just gained a great deal of credibility and trust by predicting it...and then letting it happen on it's own. At that point....there really is nothing more that you can do but just let nature take it's course? How long it takes or how long you have to keep this up in the mean time will depend on you and your ability to manage your emotions and follow through with what you said. simply not doing anything and being able to bear not having any control of that part is what I'm speculating for those of you in this situation....is probably the most difficult part in all of this. I threw that in because I am acknowledging that I cannot know what this part it like but I do understand it and can imagine what this might feel like and that much from just reading the accounts of this very thing right here on this forum.
Even kids can figure that out pretty fast and can come to the same conclusion themselves after a while if their parents were to do the very same thing with them like it or not?
J
He Knows
Submitted by SunshineSC on
I have been the enabler in the past in the context that if he left stuff lying around, I would eventually get so sick of looking at it that I picked it up.
I have told him straight up that I will no longer pick up after him, I will only wash clothes that made it to the hamper, etc.
I have started using another bathroom (thankfully, we have three!) assigned him the master bath. Our daughters have one and I have one. We each are responsible to clean our own. The 9 year old twins manage fine-one has diagnosed and treated ADHD, and mine is clean. His has mold and mildew growing on the tiles. Yuck. And I sleep in the bed right by that.
So anyhow, after a huge pile of clothes grew by his side of the bed, he carried them downstairs and washed them. Left them in the washer, which I kindly asked him to please remove them so I could wash clothes. They were smelly from sitting for 2-3 days so he had to rewash and again he left them. Yesterday, he rewashed them again and did actually dry them. They are in the dryer and my clothes are yet to be washed. I typically do all the laundry for the family but now he is doing just his, I guess.
I do not do sneaky tactics to trick him. I say right up front what the deal is. The difference is, I decided that 2016 is going to be the year that we either "make it or break it". Period. I am done. If he cannot be a partner, I will ready to walk away. I have very politely told him this. I am no longer going behind him and playing housekeeper or mother. Not my role or my job in this. "For better or worse" was totally a lie on both our parts. I don't think either of us planned on this version of "worse". I think he fully intended on a wife that took care of everything and I fully intended on a partner.
I Don't Have an Exact Answer....
Submitted by kellyj on
but I know this all too well.(of course:) What you said here I can comment on...I don't think either of us planned on this version of "worse". I think he fully intended on a wife that took care of everything and I fully intended on a partner.
You'd know this better than I....but in hind sight for myself. The last thing I wanted was someone taking care of me. NO WAY! Even though I grew up in the "Leave it To Beaver" era.....it truly was the last thing on my mind and wanted a partner to share equally. That is how I started out before I was first married and I have not really changed that much since then.
In fact.....I volunteered for many chores or responsibilities like cooking, shopping for food and household supplies, and even laundry on my own without having to ask however....(I'm laughing only at myself here) to this day I will leave the wet clothes in sometimes or forget to go unload the dryer before everything is all wrinkled. Getting them in their was never a problem! lol And hanging them up after wards on hangers....forget about it! But at least they were clean and the women in my past did not have to do that part unless they volunteered to do it but.....to make the same point you're making. Volunteered was what it looked like....forced to do it out of frustration is more like it.
All to make a point......I'm not sure it's fair to say that I planned any of this....but I found out along the way that something wasn't working quite right and I couldn't figure out why this was all so hard? Before I knew anything about ADHD....I did have that traditional family role thing going in my house growing up....but I pretty much rejected that and was completely open minded without any real expectations that it would be the same. Yet.....you can't completely undo your past and some of that still stuck with me alone with my own thinking that women should pull the same jobs as men and there shouldn't be division of labor based on anything more than and equal split no matter how hard, dirty or nasty the chore is.....all jobs need to be done by both people and you don't get to cherry pick. That's what I thought at least....it doesn't seem to play out that way in reality?
But in light of your comment about planning this version of worse? I had no idea either until I got there and I had no plan at all in that respect. The problem (and I firmly believe this now) is that if I didn't have ADHD....these problems wouldn't be problems and everything I thought life was going to be like most likely would have been in most respects. That is....I would have flown by the seat of my pants just like most guys I know and then when you get there....you just jump in and do it and it gets done without these issues....easily. Or at least....with a normal amount of time and struggle to get it under control. For me....when I got there....it didn't happen?????? Yet I witnessed this happening with others around me and that's when things first started to become noticeable for me. Even then....it didn't fix the problem or make things easier....it only told me that something was wrong but with no way to fix it. Little did I know....their was no fixing it but that was the approach I was taking thinking.....I'll just figure it out eventually? Oops! My mistake:( This is a process that you go through in discovering these things and there is NO plan at all. You assume....just like most people you see....that you know what to do and stumble your way through well enough to avoid most of the obstacles that having ADHD creates for you....which in turn.....creates the problems that you are facing right now.
So I can't speak for your H....but for me...that was my thinking....my intention and my motivation from the start and that has never changed....only my ability to do it when the time came and not having an alternative to fall back on.
You may not like the sound of this (assuming not) but in the perfect world for you and your H if you could pull it off and still maintain your sanity....would be to stop doing anything for him and just let him fail but without the part where you complain about anything or for that to have an effect on you. Not realistic I know but....if that were to happen....he would be left with no other choice but to find out just how difficult these things are for him to do once he tries repeatedly and can't get it together. Since you have kid(s) of course.....this is not practical or reasonable and that throws another dimension on this entirely.....but I do remember not all that long ago...still believing that I could just try harder and work harder and it would be Okay. In some respects....this did work in some things....but in others, I have come to admit to myself that these are real areas of dysfunction despite all the rest that I have really no signs of being any different.
Unfortunately....the ones inside the home are the worst ones for me and always have been in respect to cleaning and staying organized. And specifically....they're the ones that are most important to my wife even though I have never regarded them as unimportant....only....that I couldn't seem to do it for obvious reasons now.
I will say however....in some of these things like I mentioned with cooking for example. I've always been good in the kitchen and I like cooking for the most part. Not everyday meal making (enjoy? not so much) but since I'm good with this and good with the shopping part......those are my stronger areas along with cleaning up the kitchen and keeping it clean ( not bad really believe it or not).
Without thinking this through any further....I am better at some thins than others and those would be the first ones I would volenteer for...not because they are easier or I like them better....but I can do them better with better results. It seems for what ever reason....some things I can do and some things I really struggle......taking the struggle ones off my list and replacing them with less difficult ones is fine with me as long it is Okay with my wife but here's the catch....she won't to certain things and won't even entertain trading these jobs for some I might do in replace of other ones. This has more to do with not wanting to or not liking to do them....for me, I don't have a lot of say or choice in the matter of which ones I'm good at or which ones I'm bad at she does. Not wanting to do them vs not being able to do them well enough is a difficult concept to get through to her. If she could be more flexible and simply say ...Okay, let swap jobs and I'll do the ones your worst at doing without it being a problem.....I would jump on that in a heart beat and you wouldn't here a complaining word from me ever!! Done deal...problem solved.
Unfortunately....that isn't the way it works with us and I have little choice and few options than to do the jobs that she doesn't like even if I terrible at doing them. This in my mind is a lose/lose but it doesn't have to be that way. My first suggestion would be a win/win if only she could get out of here rigid idea that "things must be this way."
I do feel for you and know that this is hard. No one expects this and I'm speculating that your H might feel the same way I do about there being a plan or that this is really the way he wants it. Maybe yes....maybe no?
J