Why is my ADHD husband so short tempered and angry?

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We've been married over a year. We really do love each other, I swear. But lately, I'm concerned about how he treats me. He is responsibly addressing his ADHD (I guess) by seeing a doctor. He takes concerta, prozac, and some other drug (recently) for road rage. (I can't believe there even IS such a drug!)

He is responsible, intellegent and functional. But he seems to lack some "emotional intellegence or compassion." Lately, he is sharp, sarcastic, short-tempered, and basically not pleasant to be around at all. The smallest thing sets him off and he often over-reacts to life's small frustrations. Oh, and he is ALWAYS right.

I'm a very strong woman, and his words do not affect how I feel about myself in general. But if I were not strongly grounded, I think I would be well on my way to a low self esteem -because of the way he speaks to me and treats me sometimes. He has explained that is a symptom of his "ADHD" but I'm having a hard time wrapping my brain around this.

Sometimes it's embarrassing to be around other people. If friends were to witness our interaction at the wrong time, it would appear that he is a macho, cocky, know-it-all husband and I am the submissive, weaker, wife. (Which is NOT the case at all because I would never put myself in relationship like that...or at least that's what I've always thought.)

I'm almost to the point where I'll go out of my way to avoid him. But it's kind of hard since we live together. I'm not a nag. I give him plenty of space. If he were my boyfriend, I'd probably arrange a strategy to avoid him for several days so he could appreciate me more when we got together.

We have had conversations about this. He has explained that he is unaware of his tone and delivery and blames it on his ADHD. But I'm tired of bringing it to his attention.

I really care for him and love him. He frequently assures me that he loves me too. Despite his time-bomb shortness, there is much love and respect in our relationship.

It makes me sad to see him living with so much anger. I try very very hard not to take it personally and consider his illness. How much of this anger is related to personality? medication? ADHD?

Thanks

 

 

Hi AJ, When I read your blog

Hi AJ,

When I read your blog I couldn't believe how much your husband sounds like mine.  We have been married for 19 years.  I am also a very strong woman and have become very independent because of my husbands ADHD.  The thing is, lately I have considered leaving.  I am tired of coming home from work and wanting to relax in my own home and being greated by an angry tirant! 

It sounds like you love him alot; that will help you in the long haul. It is good that he has been diagnosed and getting treatment.  Mine has not been diagnosed and is very resistant to the thought that he may be ADHD. 

I guess the difference between us is that you are just beginning your marriage and both of you realise what the disability in your marriage is.  I have built up a lot of resentment, hurt and sadness over the past 19 years that has left me ready to throw in the towel.  I wish I could have started out like you...knowing what was going on.

The anger issues are wearing on me.  I am tired of fighting and I feel like being alone is a better choice if he won't take responsibility.

 

Sorry for the rant.  Keep positive and keep focused on the fact that it is his disability, not you.  You are a strong, supportive wife and he is VERY lucky to have you.

I experience the same things

I experience the same things you've both written.  Every weekend is filled with conflict and misunderstandings.  A small part of me wants to release my anger and continue to work on the marriage, the other part wants to just quit and end it.  I also feel as if I could finally relax if I lived without my husband.  I want a quiet, peaceful home and we don't have one.  Our daughter hates being the only child left at home, because she's under Dad's magnifying glass of criticism and because her parents argue a lot.  I started out today looking at the bright side and laughing about the frustrations in my life.  But after a few incidents of being cut off in mid-sentence, being ignored because he was distracted by something, and similar things, I feel so invisible and lonely that I just want to cry.  The stresses are taking a physical toll also and I am seriously questioning whether I can raise a teenage daughter AND deal with my ADD husband for the next 6 years.  I realize that a divorce would only complicate the parenting side of things, but I don't know how to renew my energy to continue working at this.

Is it really the ADHD?

I have been married a little short of 3 years and my husband is a mess. He was recently diagnosed with ADHD and is taking Vyvanse 70mg. He is out of control with his anger and always blames it on his ADHD. I have a hard time believing that is what causes his anger since I myself have ADHD and am not an anger/violent person. My biggest concern is our 17 month old son. I am afraid if I stay in this marriage our son will grow up and learn this behaviour my husband displays. The last think I want is for my son to grow up disrespecting women. I really feel like it's a catch 22. Am I a bad Mom to leave this marriage and split up his parents or am I being a good mom by leaving and taking my son out of an unhealthy enviroment? Someone please give me some answers. A little preview of what life is like in our house.... My husband will wake up usually in a bad mood. He will find anything to start a fight about. For instance.....it was 7am and was getting ready for work, the baby and I were sleeping in the bed when my husband started screaming about not having matching socks of the kind he wanted to wear....so he began to curse/scream and started to throw all of the dresser drawers on the floor. At this point he woke up our son which was now crying because he was frightened by his dads rampage. My husband is also no stranger to hitting. God, I feel so pathetic as I am writing this I know the answers and just scared to leave for some reason.

Could it be the meds?

Was your husband like this before being diagnosed and starting the medication?  Maybe it's the medication causing him to act like this.  My husband had been basically acting like a jerk a little over a year ago and, long story short,  we got to a point where we  thought it may be the meds he was on -- so he talked to his doctor and started working with different dosages and it has made a world of difference.  Just something to think about.  Good luck to you!  

Anger and ADHD

There is not one single diagnostic statement that suggests that anger is one of the symptoms of ADHD.  Not one.  He needs to go back to his doctor immediately and work this out.  Probably some therapy would help as part of that treatment.

In the meantime, if he is hitting you, you are not safe - nor is your child.  My advice would be to let him know that hitting is not acceptable, and to find a place for you and your child elsewhere until you are 100% confident that a.) he has gotten his anger under control and b.) he will not hit you in retribution when you return.

The behavior you describe is not normal behavior.  No healthy adult should be throwing what are essentially temper tantrums about mismatched socks!  Move half (no more, no less) of your money into a separate account under your name only (so he can't "force" you to return for financial reasons) NOW and MOVE OUT!  You are being abused.  Hopefully you have family somewhere who can help you get back on your feet.

Also, one of the first things I would do is try to understand why you were scared to move out.  Are you afraid that he will pursue you and cause you harm?  If so, take your gut instincts seriously and don't let down your guard for a while.  Finally, try to anticipate what the worst is that he can do to you (particularly financially).  Make sure that bills get paid adequately so that you don't lose your house (and its equity), and consult a lawyer about what your options are if things turn sour.  If you are going to take care of yourself and your son, please think in terms of "I am a competent woman who needs a plan" rather than "I am a victim of a poor man who needs help".  If he needs help, it's his responsibility to get it.  It's your responsibility to keep yourself and your child safe.

Accept help and support from others who care about you (parents, siblings, cousins, good friends) but remember that you must make your own smart decisions.

 

My ADHD husband also wakes up in bad moods.

My ADHD husband is very moody, particularly during the morning because he's annoyed that he has to get up to go to work. He'll lash out at the most minor things and he'll carry-on like that until he has to leave for work.  I am left-behind like collateral-damage after a war. I often just sit in shock after this happens.

I'm So Exhausted's picture

What will the morning bring

Overwhelmed Wife,

In hindsight, as long as my spouse was in charge of himself, he did what he wanted, at his own pace, and is quite content.  At least 80% of the time, he called his first customer to explain that he had gotten tied up and would be running late.  Didn't matter if it was an 8 am appointment or a 1 pm appointment.  There was also that percentage of appointments that he literally neglected.

It caused issues when he started hiring his nephews to work with him.  Of course, they never seemed to mind getting paid to watch TV for 1 or 2 or 3 hours while their uncle got his day pulled together.   After a while they would get fidgety since they got there at 7:30 am, and they literally could have slept in a few more hours.

As a solo act, my spouse's ADHD is his alone.  When it came to working out life schedules, marriage, one baby and then 18 months later, a second baby, church morning, parties, and date nights- it was a mess. For many years I just swallowed my frustrations, made excuses for his behavior, and never held him accountable.  Those were my errors of judgement.

I am working hard to discern if that is just the way it has to be - or if it is possible for him to take responsibility and acknowledge he needs some sort of training or help.   

He is working with a coach.  I have to take the posture that the coach knows what he is doing.  Sitting in my shoes, it just seems as my spouse is getting to be more and more of a bully.  I thought he was demanding and controlling before.  He did it in very passive aggressive manners.  Now he just out and out tells me this is his house and he has taken "back" his position as man of his own castle.  That old mantra of "It has to get worse, before it gets better" worked - - - for a while - - - - - after YEARS, yep years - - - -my own sense of self has worn thin in being open to making this all work.  It still seems that if I do all the bending, he is happy.  If he has to budge, it is misery for both of us.  

I am in my own little bubble, attending college, applying for jobs, and believing I am working my way out.  Time shall tell.  

 I am left-behind like collateral-damage after a war. I often just sit in shock after this happens.  I understand this completely.

 

Liz

 

thank you for your input

When I read your reply, I honestly thought that I was reading something from my sister in law!  lol   My H's brother is a lot like what you've described, but he doesn't hire nephews.  But everything else you wrote would apply to my sister-in-law and her ADHD husband (who is my H's brother). 

 

I mentioned in another post that my husband talks constantly.  When we're together all day long I go batty listening to his non-stop drivel.  Sometimes it's just silly jokes, but when those are interrupting my thoughts and plans, it gets annoying to ME.  He wants a full-time listener.  He doesn't want "give and take" conversation.

I'm So Exhausted's picture

Social cues are not received

My spouse has communication skills mixed up.  Like he will walk in the door at the end of the day and automatically say "How was your day?"  There is not follow-up for me to that.  I can start to respond, and he then starts talking right over me to tell me stuff.  So, he "gets" the steps, but does not apply them in a manner that is comfortable to me.

 He wants a full-time listener.  He doesn't want "give and take" conversation..  Yep, yep, yep, he talks and talks and talks - more like lecturing.  He likes to share what he knows, he just cannot get into a back and forth conversation. This works well for him in his business since he does repair and installation construction, and  he has different customers every day.  He has some repeat ones - but they only interact occasionally.  From my side of the fence, I hear him over and over explain why he running late.  An occasional customer has no clue this is his pattern.  

It has become really troublesome over the past 5+ years, as he has become very interested in politics - and shares an opposing opinion to almost everyone we know - so he has slowly pulled away from all those people because "they won't allow him to have a different opinion."  He thinks they gang up on him.  Hmm.  I see it just the opposite.  If they don't agree with him, he gets defensive and mad.  Very harsh. 

I have been searching for explanations to this behavior.  Can it be altered?  The place I sit in at the current time - it can only be addressed if he is willing to acknowledge.  His defensive nature just cannot handle that.  And that,  is not conducive to a happy married life.

 

Liz

 

Yes!

>>> He wants a full-time listener. He doesn't want "give and take" conversation.. Yep, yep, yep, he talks and talks and talks - more like lecturing. He likes to share what he knows, he just cannot get into a back and forth conversation. >>>

 

I think this must be a common ADHD trait....maybe even with some OCD and maybe some PD issues as well. My H can have a "give and take" convo if the subject isn't emotional to him. But, if it is emotional, and I'm not completely on the same page 100%, then he really just wants to do all of the talking, won't accept any other views, won't give any time for other views, only wants an audience, and really is lecturing much of the time.

He wants a full time listener

"I mentioned in another post that my husband talks constantly.  When we're together all day long I go batty listening to his non-stop drivel.  Sometimes it's just silly jokes, but when those are interrupting my thoughts and plans, it gets annoying to ME.  He wants a full-time listener.  He doesn't want "give and take" conversation."

     My ADHD husband has ALWAYS wanted a full-time listener and really dislikes the give and take in a conversation. But, at the same time, he's always gotten angry at our daughters and me (and others) if we have full blown conversations with laughter and fun, etc. He says he doesn't feel included in the conversations, and like he's not "part of the family". But, it's NOT US. We try to include him, but he wants to talk OVER us. He also doesn't know how to ask questions of other people to generate MORE conversation going from topic to topic with ease.  This is VERY DIFFICULT for him. But, yet he can do this with strangers. (hyperfocus?)

     So many times he's told me "Is this going to take very long? and ARE YOU GOING TO GET TO THE POINT? (angrily) So, I had to learn to talk to him in 30 second sound-bytes. Politics seems like the MAIN topic that most ADHD husbands ALLOW their wives to talk about. In the past it always made me feel insignificant and that my view points were "stupid" to him. I also felt diminished and "less" in his eyes because he wouldn't LISTEN to me, even for a little while. He ALWAYS tuned out, no matter what I was saying. I think that's why there's been so much MIS-communication. He's trying to be different now, but there's a LONG way to go.

   

too much talking

<<<< "I mentioned in another post that my husband talks constantly. When we're together all day long I go batty listening to his non-stop drivel. Sometimes it's just silly jokes, but when those are interrupting my thoughts and plans, it gets annoying to ME. He wants a full-time listener. He doesn't want "give and take" conversation." <<<<<

 

 

watching TV can be impossible. He'll start talking about something he sees on TV and won't shut up. I pause the DVR, then rewind, and then he talks again, and then I rewind again.....and again, and again. The only time he's quiet is if HE is hyper focused....on a chess game, listening on the radio, reading something on the internet, etc. It's REALLY annoying when he's "playing expert" and he'll drone on and on trying to "show off" but often he doesn't know what he's talking about.

 

 

>>>>> My ADHD husband has ALWAYS wanted a full-time listener and really dislikes the give and take in a conversation. But, at the same time, he's always gotten angry at our daughters and me (and others) if we have full blown conversations with laughter and fun, etc. He says he doesn't feel included in the conversations, and like he's not "part of the family". But, it's NOT US. We try to include him, but he wants to talk OVER us. He also doesn't know how to ask questions of other people to generate MORE conversation going from topic to topic with ease. This is VERY DIFFICULT for him. But, yet he can do this with strangers. (hyperfocus?)

>>>>

 

 

Exactly! H gets VERY UPSET and jealous when he hears the kids and I having a fun conversation or playing a game. H can't play games because he gets toooooooo upset if he loses....poor sport. And, he can't have a fun conversation because he's the only one he wants to hear talking. H's mom is somewhat the same way. She talks non-stop. But when I told her about my mother's terminal illness, there was no response. She had called on the phone to talk to my H, but H wasn't home. I thought that she might want to have a short chat with me, but I guess not. I guess she was in hyper-focus mode about what she wanted to talk to H about and couldn't listen to my short story about my mom. Recently, the kids, H and I were in the car. I started to tell a story. After about a minute, H told me that my story was "boring"...obviously he wanted me to shut up so HE could talk. The kids immediately said, "no, mom's story isn't boring. We want to hear the rest." It wasn't a boring story......not at all. H just wanted to do the talking. I've seen H do that before. After a friend tells a story, later H will say, "bob's story was boring." No, it wasn't.

I&#039;m So Exhausted's picture

Boundaries on discussions are the issue for me

Yes, my spouse like to talk.  The difficulty for me is to figure out how to help him understand that I do not like it when he  just starts chatting when I am watching TV.  Or reading a book.  Or working on my school work.  I just see a blank-wall-of-understanding when it comes to seeing or hearing or listening to social cues.  Yes, he may have been reading and researching something of interest for an hour or a day or a week or even a month.  I cannot figure out how to explain to him that when he just jumps right in a random conversation - in the middle of all his information - when I have no clue what so ever about what he talking about - it don't like it.    Especially when I was enjoying something else.  Or have no interest what-so-ever in his subject of interest.  I understand his excitement and joy in sharing - it feels like a lecture - no room for my input.  It feels like an intrusion.  

My spouse also feels left out when we are having fun playing a game - however he doesn't like to play.  We try to ask and include, he just refuses.  He played cards with me two times - when i was in labor with our children.  That was 1989 and 1991.  

I have gone the gamut of reactions - from yelling to ignoring to trying to come up with a cue to just losing my ever-lovin mind already.  

We have tried many unsuccessful suggestion to get him from yelling to us from the back door.  Fans, TV, heater blowers, dishwasher, etc., are all noises that muffle his voice.  I just finally started ignoring him.  He yells, and slams doors in response.  Out of ideas - and out of patience - and outa my mind. 

 

Liz

 //My ADHD husband has ALWAYS

 //My ADHD husband has ALWAYS wanted a full-time listener and really dislikes the give and take in a conversation...But, yet he can do this with strangers.//

My H is the same way but in addition to being able to have 2 sided conversations with strangers he can also have them with his friends and family. But, not me.

I always point this out and give him examples and he denies it. He become angered or annoyed (sighs, rolls his eyes, talks over, interrupts, changes the subject, walks out of the room...)  But when I brought it up in therapy, he admitted he did it but it was my fault because I don't get to the "headline" and he hates hearing my details and when he asks me something, it's not really to get my option or my feelings, he only wants yes or no's and only if he asks for more details will I be allowed to provide them. When I fired back asking why it's ok for everyone else to have real, detailed, 2-sided conversations but I'm not allowed, he knew he had just made an ass out of himself. So, he started to joke and avoided the question. When the therapist pressed him, he went into Mr. Charming mode...

Mouthful

Oh my gosh overwhelmedwife, you certainly said a mouthful! My husband is the same way. He works from home so, he does not see a lot of people during the day and when I come home exhausted from an eight hour day, I get to hear all about his day, accomplishments, brilliant ideas, what he ate-before I can manage to pull off my shoes. If I take the dog out to use the bathroom, he claims I love the dog more than him. If I don't listen with a huge excited smile on my face- then he accuses me of not being available to him to talk as a "wife should be". He asks me about my day only to interrupt me mid sentence several times, until I just get exhausted and let him talk for the remainder of the afternoon. Once he has exhausted all of his "topics" he starts making silly jokes,  sounds or doing a stupid dance to try and get me to laugh. If I ignore him, he gets upset and goes to his office, only to later return to complain about how lonely he feels and that I never pay attention to him. Never mind the fact that he can work on his computer all hours of the night until 2am and I don't say a word. Sex is totally nonexistent, definitely don't want an argument there because somehow my question turns into nagging which further hinders performance. I have only been married 6 months and I am ready to divorce.

Moody Husband ADHD and Cance meds!

It's like I am reading about MY life. My situation is complicated due to the fact that my ADHD husband also has cancer. He takes steroids as part of his treatment. Double Whammy!

We've been married less than a year. My husband behaved much better before we were married. Now he is moody, angry and easily provoked all the time!

He is self aware of his anger and "isms", as he calls them. But displays irrational anger and rants non the less. he blames his ADHD and steroids. He justifies and tries to rationalize his outbursts. Label them as he may, It's still bad behavior!!!

Recently it has come to the point where he distances himself from me. he won't talk to me. Telling me he is cranky. This makes me feel bad. I want to help him through whatever he is feeling. But I also know that his bad moods are NOT always caused by steroids and ADHD. The cancer has made him depressed. steroids are causing him to gain weight, yes. BUT  he also has HORRIBLE eating habits.

He's a mess! We're a mess! 

I don't know where to begin to fix us. 

I walk on eggshells all the time. Wondering if "today" will be a good day. 

 

Moody Husband

If you only have a short time invested in this relationship I honestly suggest getting out!  If you don't have kids as part of your bond and the man has family that can help him out, you need to keep your own sanity, physical and mental health intact.  This relationship will leave you devestated about your own life for years to come.  You don't need to be treated badly from this person.  He is going through a lot as well but his actions are his own same as my ADHD spouse and all the others.  We can only do so much................but the reality is that it is taking it's toll on the majority of us as our spouses do not seem to be the ones that can get a handle on their diagnosis.  I have tried doing the online workshop that we paid $300 for over a year ago.  I don't know if it depends on what other diagnosis these men have as they say they usually have some other form of mental illness or what.................but I wish I too had one that understood and cared enough to be my partner in working through the relationship issues that "his" diagnosis has brought into our lives.

matthewsjinky21's picture

Should I stop now before we actually start our married life?

I've been here in this site for about 3 days now. From then, I always cry while reading all the posts here. I can relate myself. I have an ADHD husband too. We got married September last year and in a long distance relationship. Before we get married he told me that he is from an abusive home. So I consider that I need to give him more attention and love because he is lacking of it. He found his new home with my family. After we got married he ask me if I know anything about ADHD. So i search on it. Then he told me that he has ADHD. I asked him if how he deals with it and he said he's fine. So I settle for his answer. I really dont pay attention on it coz I didn't know that this is a serious thing. Until starting this year he begin to change. He always get upset,mad,pissed off with small things that we talk about. I always try to fix everything before we end the day. Coz I believe thats how it should be as a couple. But arguments happen over and over again and getting worse. He always brought up things that we already discussed. Sometimes I just took a picture of our previous chats to tell him that we already discuss that thing and over with that topic coz I dont want to argue. I feel very exhausted everyday because of our arguments. Its starting to affect all my activities, at home,my school,my work,and my relationship with my son (i am a single mom). I don't know what to do now I feel emotionally stressed. I can't tell my family and friends about my situation now coz I dont want them to get upset on him. He used to be a nice,loving,caring person. Well he still, when he doesnt have tantrums. After reading all your posts here, I'm afraid to have kids with him build a family with him. Coz I dont want my kids to suffer like your kids does. They are very innocent to have these experiences. I really really love my husband and I want to keep my vows but I dont know how long I can take all his anger. :'( He will come see me for my school graduation this March and we will start to work for me and my son's visa to move with him. I don't know if I still want to move with him coz I dont know where this ADHD problem will lead our relationship. :'( I wish we all solve our problem and stay strong. God bless us all!

Reply to "Am I a bad Mom to leave this marriage?"

No, you're not a bad mom. I myself have gone through worse for the last several years. Our son is 6 and our problems started pretty much when I was pregnant. It's almost as if he was all of a sudden severely jealous .. and it continued as our son got older. Our son has a little bit of a delay; never been very verbal. In the last few years he has gotten violent because of my husband's issues with consistency, follow-through and respecting boundaries and rules. Our daughter is 4 and even she is getting extremely aggressive. In the last several months my husband has been using his new job stress as an excuse for mistreating us all and I have been in tears almost every day the last two weeks. In Nov he crossed a line with my son and now, I'm in the process of heading for a shelter. PLEASE don't wait. DON'T WAIT. There are no excuses for abuse .. NONE.

I am on the same boat

I just can imagine how much you have been holding your emotion and try to normalize each day without any conflict.  I have been married with my husband for 18 years and are separate with each other now.  The main reason is that my daughter is also diagnosed with ADHD, and plus has ODD issue, and she is a teenager.  So my husband and my daughter start to fight each other severely to the point that he beat her physically.  Now i live with my son and daughter alone without him.  I know people easily say that you should divorce or separate, but the marriage is not that easy to drop and move on, you and your husband had or have happy moments too, and you also have strong emotions and feelings towards him.  The only thing I can say this, it was not healthy environment for my kids to normalize the day when my husband expressed his anger around us, we try to bury our head in the sand, and try to move on with condition we have.  But my kids are already grew up in angry environment, which was not ok.  I told my husband that hate does not create anything but bitter life, so lets have love in this home, but he put his emotions first and it seems like he had to make everybody validate his emotions before anything.   I would not say, "just divorce him and move on", if you still want to be with him, nothing to lose,  please tell him how much you need to have therapy session with him( dont say he needs therapy alone, because he will take that he has problem, and everybody criticize me), he has to know how much you exhausted by negative environment.  

 

This is my life...anger,

This is my life...anger, verbal/emotional abuse, misunderstandings, conflict...I don't get it.  The doctor put him on a "need" to take basis on Dexatrim.  How could he give someone who can't control his behavior, emotions and attitude the authority over when to take his medication. All I do is walk on eggshells and before I was scared to say anything that voiced an opinion that would challenge my husband...now I'm scared to say anything at all...even good things.  I'm broken down and depressed.  He's been so mean and hurtful...blames me for everything.  I love him with all my heart and want to be with him forever.  Is there any hope?  I'm loving, supportive and selfless and I'm made out to be a c*nt, b*tch, wh*re and bad housewife.  I swear I do everything in my power...I speak in a calm nice tone, I'm gentile...why does he misread me?  I tried to give him distance and its still not enough.  I just want him to see I'm his biggest fan and believe in him.  I say it but the words are forgotten, the good times are forgotten...he is lost within himself, so selfish a lot of times and cruel.  He lacks emotional intelligence...so cold...I wish he at least was raised by a loving and support family...maybe that would have taught him how to love and accept love.  Any advice out there on what I can do? I used to be a happy, outgoing person and now I'm withdrawn and sad. 

Nettie's picture

Hope and Hard Work

It sounds like you still do have hope, or you wouldn't be bothered to reach out. Good for you...hang on to it fiercely.

The first hope/faith I want you to have is in yourself. It's cliche, but perfectly fitting to remind you that you've GOT to put on your oxygen mask first, i.e., take care of yourself so you can help others. I understand that it's terribly difficult to abandon someone you love, so I'm not going to suggest that. You build up your strength so you can hold on to what's important to you. You can still support someone from a safe distance if that's what's required to take care of yourself and loved ones, and you can be flexible about arrangements as you reassess areas of change.

The first step I recommend in this area is to READ everything you can get your eyeballs on, choose what you think may work for your situation, and then strategize small steps towards progress. You've got to keep trying little things, learn from them, adjust them, and keep your momentum going.

Secondly, if you don't have one, form a support circle and go to it often. Part of this support system should probably include a doctor. My husband's doctor has allowed me to attend some of his sessions; perhaps yours would. My husband was very much helped by a simple sleep study, which helped with the diagnosis of a mild sleep disorder that has been helped with a sleep aid. One thing that has also helped both of us is nutritional supplements. I was pleased to discover an unexpected benefit from these supplements (just vitamins, minerals and essential fats) is a calmer, more consistent mood.

The other thing that is much more difficult and very hard earned is communication success. My husband and I (we both have adhd) have learned to slow down and examine our heightened emotions while talking to each other and most importantly to determine if our "passion" is based on accurate data. When first married (now four years), I was confused that my husband sometimes made such extreme statements while he is a scientist! He would say it's because he's logical and I'm not (arggh!), but I'm the one who did the tedious work to find and encourage solutions, so there! ;)

I'm guessing you each have unique strengths you can combine to solve the dilemmas you are facing, just like we do. Best wishes, and keep reaching out and working hard...you can do it. ~N

H won't let me attend any of his doctor appts or therapy meeting

My H won't let me go to any of his doctor appts because he doesn't want me telling her that he's an alcoholic or that he misuses his Rx's (taking too many, then running out). His doctor also has no idea that he also goes to another doctor to get meds that shouldn't be taken with these other meds. He won't let me meet his therapist because a couple of years ago I met his former therapist and afterwards, his therapist was angry because H had mislead him so much.

So Confused- I'm in a Tailspin

My husband has ADHD and these posts are like reading my own.  We've been married for 11 years and he has an awful temper.  He also feels that he needs to "Parent" me and his best friend. 

I've talked to a counselor and he said to leave - it's abuse.  I've been called everything under the sun and I am at my wits end.  I swear, when we fight, I would cry and now?  Nothing.  I just feel empty and lost. 

Part of me wants to move out and part of me knows that he is in debt up to his eyeballs and can't live on what he makes.  We own a home and we can't really sell because the real estate market is so bad.  I've considered moving upstairs...I just don't know.

What do I do?  He wants to work it out, after 11 years of the same crap I don't think he can change.  Oh, he is also taking meds and seeing a counselor for 3 years.  I have doubts about this counselor he's seeing.

Any pearls of wisdom for me?

I'm with the professional.

I'm with the professional. And I've been upstairs for two months now. If I could support my self, I would be gone. Maybe not, I adore my son who has just turned 18 and is still at home. Mr. Personality is at a party right now. He is not the man I live with. He'll complain all the way until he gets to the party, then have a blast. It just boggles my mind!

At home he'll pick on me for nothing. Once, he even called me at work to harass me about using the antenna on my phone. It really made him mad that I didn't! Or my ears. After we got married, he decided my ears bothered him. I could no longer put my hair back without him gripin, "ears! ears!". Then there is the stuff on the counters or touching the walls... Sheesh! Just chronic, petty, stupid stuff. Thank God the medication helped take the edge off! I've had to just accept that he will never have the capacity to meet my needs and I will never have a true sense of intimacy with him.

Here's one pearl from me, taking the room upstairs is nice, I wish I thought of it sooner! 

I tried taking another bedroom, but H will stand outside and.

....complain or whine or yell...and sometimes force his way in. Sometimes I just leave and either sleep in the car or at a friend's home. I think it's either the ADHD impulsive or the OCD that keeps him from stopping himself. He just can't shut up sometimes. Seriously, a few times when he's been raging, I'll sneak out of the house when he doesn't realize it and he'll still rage for hours. A couple of times, I placed pillows in my bed to look like I was sleeping there, and he stood over the pillows (thinking it was me) yelling for a LONG time before he pulled the covers and realized I wasn't there. Tonight I'm at a friend's home because H says that he can't stand to be around me....lol....yet he has called at least 10 times. I haven't answered any of the calls.

Hilarious!...

Not to make light of your pain, but this gave me a chuckle because on several occasions mine would have an epic rant on the phone, and when I couldn't talk him down the ledge, I would simply hang up...

He'd call maybe half an hour later and say, what the hell, you hung up on me?...

It only too you thirty minutes to realize I checked out of the conversation a long while ago? LMAO

If he's seeing a therapist that hasn't spent any time with you..

....then likely the T has been told a lot of mistruths. When my H's former T asked me to come to a few sessions (likely to verify the things H had said), I went to about 4-5 sessions. At the end, the T told my H that I was nothing like H had described and that H's temper was a lot of the problem. when I would try to talk in the T sessions, H would yell, interrupt, shout me down, etc. He'd even call me names. I was calm, but cried a few times, but didn't yell or call names. The T quickly learned that H had some serious issues. But, once this happened, H refused to go back to that T.....and since then, H has refused to let me meet his new T.....he tells his new T that I would "lie" to him if I met with him.

Your life is EXACTLY like mine ... Sad & Miserable :(

When I read your blog, I teared up.  I could have easily written these EXACT same words.  I am interested to see how you are doing now (nearly 2.5 years later) and I hope you get this message.  I am lost and in a world of pure ANGER.  My husband has been on 70mg of Vyvanse for a few years now and I am starting to think it is losing its effectiveness.  I am lucky if I get even an hour of my "nice" husband and then it's just GUILT, BLAME, ANGER, RUDE COMMENTS, TEARS.... I am at a breaking point.  I am described as a generous, friendly person by everyone except my husband.  He won't even talk about his ADHD and just wants to put all the blame on my shoulders.  He is a master at making me look bad, like it's all my fault that he is miserable (even though I hear him throwing things around the kitchen and garage when I am trying to sleep!!)  We have a wonderful son who is almost 8 years old who was diagnosed with ADHD/Asperger's about 2 years ago.  He is not angry, but sometimes I can catch glimpses of my husband's anger and rude comments mirrored in our son - and it's scary!  Lately, I have been fantasizing about leaving him and just cutting my losses.  It is such a scary thought (I have no money, no job, and 3 pets that I cannot abandon) and it makes me cry almost daily just thinking about it.  I approached my husband with the idea of getting help and he just yelled at me accusing me of putting all the blame on HIM even though I clearly said in the wise words of Melissa Orlov, "I am blaming the ADHD, not you!"  No response.  It's like he won't even consider it.  Please let me know how you are doing now.  Did you leave your husband?  Did things improve?  I am anxious to hear from someone in my same situation.

summerwine's picture

He needs his meds tweaked if

He needs his meds tweaked if he gets so nasty when they wear off. Does he realize that his changes when his meds wear off? 

My husband often misreads me.

We will be going along and I'll think that things are fine, but later he'll tell me that I was rude or uncaring to him "all day".   ???  What?   Things were going along fine.  He'll begin ranting and raving and I'm sitting there in shock.  

I just turned 50 and have

I just turned 50 and have been divorced for 4 years now, what you have just explained was a photo snap shot of my life.

Anger

Hi AJ, we sound as if we are living parallel lives. We have been married for 18yrs. I feel in the end over the years it is inevitable to become a little bit resentful - that is where I am at.  I am trying to figure out if I really want to stay around, it is beginning to wear on my own emotions at this point which is not good for my own well being.

Anyway it is nice to know I am not the only one out there dealing with this kind of relationship.

Short Tempered and Angry Hubby

Short and sweet - your husband is using his ADHD as an excuse unless he is doing ALL that he can to get past the anger issues that he has.  Sounds as if the meds he is on are not working as well as they could, or if the meds are actually optimal, he needs to do something else.  One very effective mood regulator is exercise.  He might try very regular aerobic exercise to see if that helps.  Another good mood regulator can be meditation.  He may not be a meditation type of guy, but he might look at it another way - either he gets his anger under control or your relationship is going to be badly affected.  Going part way doesn't cut it in this case...you are already trying to get out of his way...and that means that this ought to continued to be addressed until you get to a balance that BOTH of you can live with.

Also, excellent treatment includes therapy with a goal towards behavior modification.  In this case, controlling his anger and/or impulsiveness sounds as if it's an important first thing to modify.  (Note here - my hubby used to have spurts of anger, which may be different from what you're experiencing.  He found that using Wellbutrin as his ADHD med also addrressed his anger at the same time.  He also has worked hard to develop specific habits that pull us together, rather than force us apart.)

I'm curious about your statement that he has been particularly short tempered lately.  Does this change coincide with a new treatment regimen or specfic event?  Never assume that the meds are doing what you think they ought to do with ADHD and emotional stuff.  Some have some pretty weird side effects.  Experimentation is often needed to get to the right combo for any individual.  In the experimental stages, it might be helpful if you are his partner in observing the side effects.  For example, with his okay, keep notes on what time of day he is particuarly cranky, the situations in which he gets angry, etc.  Not only do the meds sometimes have side effects, but also having the meds wear off can have side effects, too (which is what shows up at certain times of day).

People with ADD can over-react to things - they can be easily stimulated...or...sometimes people with ADD like the intense simulation of fighting and look for fights to get into in order to be stimulated...or...sometimes people with ADD express their anger more readily than others because they have poor impulse control.  Or, there might be something else going on.  Make sure your hubby is with a person who is a real ADD specialist, not just a generalist, so that he has the highest chance of getting to the bottom of perhaps intertwined things that are going on with him.

Anger can also be a reflex that has to do with shame, which is something that people with ADD often struggle with.  See "How to Improve Your Marriage Without Talking ABout It" for more on this topic.

Sometimes it's hard to pull apart the "tangle" of symptoms and figure out exactly how to treat them.  But keep trying, because it's important to you, as well as him, and ultimately will make a huge difference in your relationship.  You don't want to be questionning him AND you (which is already starting to happen).

Melissa

 

Short Temper and Anger Symptoms

Melissa, I'm new to this site and this has probably been gone over in the past, but isn't it accepted that there are variations of AHDH, one of them being Combined Type? And doesn't Combined Type cover the moodiness and anger symptoms? My son was evaluated at age 6 and diagnosed with ADHD Combined Type. Both my husband and myself are quite educated as to ADHD (my husband was diagnosed as a child), and we felt we were pro-active in knowing the possibility of our son having ADHD. But our son was such an oppositional, defiant, moody, angry toddler (and that's only the beginning of it!) that we started preparing ourselves for diagnoses of oppositional/defiant or a type of bi-polar. It was serious. Anyway, he started off with Ritalin which was OK but the wearing-off time was such a fierce crash. He is now taking Concerta and it has been like a miracle. It is addressing not only the restlessness and impulsiveness, but the moodiness, anger, etc., as well. It's not a cure all -- we work with him consistently on these issues and he has come so far!!  

But the point is, couldn't an adult be diagnosed with Combined Type? Do you think getting the correct sub-type diagnosed is important as far as meds?

Also, is it possible to have this kind of ADHD becomec exacerbated by Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome? Have you ever heard of or dealt with such a case? (PTSD includes outbusts of anger, rage, crabby mood, over reacting.)

Types of ADD

I would like to answer this accurately, but am not a doctor.  There are three subtypes of ADHD (they are all officially called ADHD now, though that confuses people who have the distracted subtype as there is no "H' to it!)  I don't know if one type exclusively is responsible for defiance and anger.  I rather doubt it, as my husband has the distracted variety and suffered from both anger spurts and lots of opposition (to me...haha!)  Anyway, meds have helped him a lot, too.

Will explore the PTSD question and see if I can put it in a Hallowell Connections newsletter in the future.  (for past issues,including one with an article about PTSD, go to www.drhallowell.com and click on the archives on the bottom of the home page).

What Might Be Causing The Anger....

Hello all, (ADD husband, married 14 years, together almost 20)

I almost lost everything at the begriming of this year. My wife was finally giving up and needed to move on. She said if she didn't see certain gains in our everday life and between usin the coming weeks, i needed to pack my bags and leave. And I actually ended up leaving for about 3 weeks.

I AM the ADD husband with anger issues and am using counseling to help me find a way to move forward in a positive way. A lot of what the wives her have been saying relates to my wife and myself except for the hitting. I would never, ever, hit my wife. I do have the throwing things issues and have times where I hit a wall. My actions like this have been over the "everyday set backs" that I handle so poorly. So point being, I am a lot like the husbands you have been describing.

So, through help and a lot of thought about my anger issues. The every day anger or loss of temper started when I was first getting over loaded with the normal piling on of life along with the loss of being able to do it at my pace. Bigger houses, then dog, and finally my daughter was born along with my wife moving us forward in financial stability through real estate and moving. I can handle most of life when it comes one thing at a time. When it comes in bunches I feel over whelmed, rushed, and that my wife is in many cases the reason I cannot do my tasks like I want to. (Please note that it is just what I feel and probably not reality.)

Things that I am beginning to learn that help me over come the anger are ANYTHING that keeps the over whelmed or out of control feelings away from me. The single most helpful and hardest for me to do is to just talk about my feelings with my wife because I have never done this with anyone.

Second, I have found out that writing things down in list form works best for me from everyday stuff to prioritizing the ever changing honey do list. Some may wish to use their electronic device, but the pocket calendar does me a world of good. I have to look at it everyday and a few times a day.

My relationship with my wife after 7 months of counseling has just started taking steps forward. Not even steps, just a lean forward. But, that is the some fuel to help us both move forward as husband and wife. She still gets fed up with my behavior sometimes, but I do recognize what I am doing more often. If I can't stop it, I at least know that I need to talk to her and let her know what was going through my head at that time. It helps us both understand more.

I have to keep this from being a book. There is hope for your marriage if both parties want to learn together and move forward.

I am a work in progress.

Hi,

Hi,

I am new to this forum and do not know if you can reply to a post written years ago... But anyways, I really do like what you have written. So honest and willing to get help. I really do love my husband, but because of his anger issues, obsessive behavior we are separated right now. It does not look good for us. He says that he gets angry because of me. He misunderstands a lot and even when I do tell him that it was not what I meant, he wants me to admit that I did mean it. That I did have a certain look on my face... Even when I tell him, that even when I had this "look" on my face, that I certainly did not mean it in a bad way. The discussion goes on and on and I do feel more and more stressed. We had a couple of counseling sessions a year ago where we got taught how to react when a situation like that happens. She told us to take a time out if that happens. But my husband does not want to. He gets even more angry. Now we are separated since a month. He denies his ADD diagnosis. Wants to get a second opinion. He is still blaming me for our "conflicts"... How do I wish he would trust me when I do tell him that it was not meant that way. And even when I do get impatient with him ones in a while is there no grace for me? His last anger outburst happened because I did ask him why he was late and if he was caught up in a conversation. He got so mad at me, screamed at me that I do have to respect his feelings, that I did say it sarcastic, but I did not. I cannot say I did when I did. Even if, would that have given him the right to scream and yell at me? We non ADD people are not perfect either. I never can be perfect enough for him. Why? Why is he not willing to take responsibillty for his anger outburts like you do? I do love and respect him, why can he not trust me? 

It's like reading my own words...

I just read this post and a handful of the comments...and wow.  I feel like I am reading my own thoughts, feelings and emotions.  My husband is not a bad man.  But he is short-tempered, easily frustrated, somewhat paranoid, and always has to be right. My husband is undiagnosed, but he definitely has ADHD.  He has an appointment to see a doctor next week.  I'm praying that something is done.  I'm just terrified that he isn't really committed to getting help because I think that deep down he believes that he doesn't have a problem.  I do feel like I'm in a catch-22.  I've thought about leaving, but I don't want our 5-year old son to have to live with divorced parents.  Not to mention the fact that I'm pregnant with our 2nd child...

He is a great dad, but he does take pains to avoid our son when he's in a bad mood - for that I am grateful.  I just wish he didn't have to do that...

Most of the time he blames his moodiness and temper on external factors, but I often think it's more internal than external - he just doesn't want to admit that there is something wrong with him.  He is finally willing to take steps to try to get some medication or help - for which I am grateful.  I just worry that it might not be enough...

AJ's picture

Update

Wow. I forgot about this post I made back in 2008. So, here is an update on my ADHD Marriage. 

Things are great! Since 2008, there have been ups and downs. Honestly, it got a little worse before it got better. It reached an all-time low when occasional name calling entered the picture. If he were a boyfriend, I would have left and not turned back after our first name calling fight. But... after having 2 kids, neither of us were about to leave each other so, we saw a therapist. 

During the first visit, the therapist recommended this book. Ironically, I had already read it and brought it to our first session -along with a couple of other books about being in a verbally abusive relationship. Lol. I was prepared for battle. Poor hubby. The first visit was all about his ADHD and he felt a little picked on. But it turned out, he needed to adjust his meds before we continue. He did.

My husband was diagnosed with ADHD as an adult. He grew up with people calling him "smart but lazy" and adults were always nagging him about procrastinating and paying attention. He was that kid that did homework in homeroom the morning it was due and got an A -that is as long as the subject interested him. 

I'm very lucky to have an ADHD spouse that takes full responsibility for his physical and mental health. To make a long story short, we are doing really well and have learned a lot by reading the book (okay I read it and he is STILL on chapter 4. They need to make this an audio book for the ADHD peeps out there! lol) AND employing the exercises that the therapist told us to do. At first it feels goofy. We laugh about being that couple in the movie "This is 40" or Pam and Jim from "The Office". But it works!

(Almost) every night we do the "I appreciates" and "Validation" exercises. We have two toddlers, 2 and 3 and we both work full-time so you can imagine that combined with the ADHD, communication is something that needs work. Well, setting aside 15 minutes to do the "I appreciates" and "talk and listen" goes a LONG WAY and its actually kind of nice (as structured and awkward as it seems at first). I was kind of giddy the first time we did it. 

Not going to make this a long post because I have stuff to do. lol but I wanted to seriously recommend this book. I forgot I even posted on here years ago and was not even aware that it was connected to the book I just read this past year. Ha! Imagine that. I also suggest a few rounds of therapy. We still go every two weeks. We still need to learn how to deal with conflict and how agree that I am always right. (Just kidding!)

As for my previously angry husband, with the med adjustments, regular tennis workouts and taking the time to learn about his ADHD, stress triggers and how to communicate as a couple in general, we are both much, much happier! Oh, and also one very important thing the book mentioned and I agree with whole-heartedly. NOTHING IS WRONG WITH HAVING ADHD. It is simply a way of being. I never make my husband feel like he has some mental defect -something I learned that he was ashamed of. In fact, there are some distinct advantages. I see the positive side to his ADHD everyday. The important thing is to learn about the differences, how to deal with them and how to love, validate and respect each other in general. 

It sounds like your husband is a decent guy. I hope he is open-minded and willing to engage in getting ADHD treatment and therapy with you. I never suspected that there was a link to the outbursts and anger but there is indeed an emotional side to ADHD. You can't blame EVERYTHING on ADHD but I have learned in my marriage that our problems were very much connected to it.

Shout out to Melissa Orlov for writing this book. I do not know her and I'm not being paid to endorse it, but I'm sure glad she wrote it. 

 

Thanks, AJ

Thanks for the update, AJ - it's great to have you come back and share your story a bit down the road!  People at the site need to hear from folks who have been able to find a much better relationship as an offset to the pain that people share here.  So glad you are making it work!  I regularly see couples turn their relationships around but of course it is so much better to hear it from the couples themselves.

There is an audiobook for The ADHD Effect, BTW - you can get it at this site from the home page.

Your relationship will have ups and downs, as I'm sure you know.  But remember that by keeping you eye on it, and nurturing it, you should be able to bring it back to the good place again even if you get "out of whack" along the way.  Even my husband and I have had to "take stock and readjust" every once in a while.  And THANK YOU (from me, and probably your husband) for not thinking that ADHD is "bad."  That's a tremendously important part of your stability. 

Best of luck to you!

 

I'm surrounded!

Married 14 years - Husband and son with ADHD (and sister, brother, father, step-son etc....)

I just found this site and have never submitted anything like this before - but the words, "I'm done" just came out of my mouth and I'm sitting here wondering how I got to this awful place.  I've kidded for years that I'm surrounded by ADD/ADHD and that my role in life was to keep everyone organized.  My son was diagnosed with ADHD at 3 years old (off the chart ADHD!) and I decided that knowledge was POWER!  I've read everything on the topic and treatments for boys with this affliction and feel completely empowered to make smart decisions for my son.  I'm so proud of his progress (he's now 12 and coming home from ADHD camp in 2 days).  He's an awesome kid.  While gaining all this knowledge it came out that my sister also had ADD, which was so obvious but undiagnosed for her until she was an adult.  Then I was reminded that my brother was also a "Ritalin" kid but again this was way early before it was a common diagnosis.  Then we realized that our older son (step-son) was ADD but never diagnosed until 17.  Finally (duh), I realized (and his mom confirmed) that my husband had been diagnosed with ADHD.  Now, this is where it all gets tricky.  He has ADHD, but since he cannot ever be wrong, responsible or accountable, he will only acknowledge it in very rare situations and usually when talking about our son.  I'm not "allowed to use this against" him and if I bring it up he immediately turns defensive and very, very angry.

He is a wonderful man, caring, intelligent, hard working and a great Dad - 75% of the time.  The rest....snarky, angry, moody, mean and so argumenetive that it feels like all I listen to is this petty arguing (especially when my son is home, then it's the two of them going at it all the time!).  Being surrounded is hard but not impossible.  The part that is sending me out the door is his harsh anger that is explosive and without cause.  He says terrible things to me about myself, our son, our life and uses those fun statements of "everyone says", "you always" etc.  Even compares me to his "ex wife" just to be mean (only those of you with an ex-wife in your life will appreciate that one!).  The outburst is bad enough, but the part I cannot get my head around is his insistence that "I deserved it and he has nothing to apologize for".   I could tolerate almost anything (and have) when someone can be sincerely sorry for their actions but, he absolutely refuses to be sorry or remorseful for anything he does no matter how bad because it's my fault that we was so angry.  To my face he says this. And I absolutely know he doesn't remember what he said but cannot admit it!!!  I feel crushed and to blame for everything....

I'm fortunate, unlike many of the people I see on this forum, I'm a professional, well paid and have enough money to leave.  My problem is my son....I've already helped raise my husbands two older children (by his first marriage) and know the awful affects of two household child rearing when ADD/ADHD is involved.  I stay because I know what a divorce would do to my son, our stability is what has helped make his progress so strong.  Everything I read tells me that our split would be his undoing....and I'm okay with making a sacrifice to stay for his sake (because I really do love the man) but am starting to wonder what my staying will ultimately teach my son.   

I love my husband - and I truly know he loves me (when he's not in a rage and hates me).  I'm okay with his disorganization and time management issues - I've learned all the tricks...we have a great life, 75% of the time.  However, the 25% is horrible and it clouds everything good.  What do you do when your ADHD husband refuses treatment and is never wrong or responsible???  We did therapy for a long time to help us with our son but he now refuses because he felt ganged up on (ie.anger issues he needed to address).  I can live with all the ADHD behaviors - I get it..., but it's so hard being unappreciated for it and then to be piled on at the same time.  I'm not a doormat and never imagined myself in this place.

How do I get unstuck?

Sounds like your husband

Sounds like your husband doesn't have very good impulse control that 25% of the time, and this is making those times very challenging for you.  I wonder what your reaction is during those times.  The best thing you can do is to dis-engage saying something like "I really cannot be around you when you behave this way.  I'm happy to talk to you when you calm down."  And then when things are calmer, go back and discuss what the things are that are triggering him, and if the triggers can be avoided.

It sounds like since he is refusing treatment, he is not on any medication that might help with his impulse control. If he does not want to take responsibility for his ADHD, will he admit to any kind of mood challenges, such as anxiety or depression?  If so, Wellbutrin can be a great substitute medication that can support both ADHD symptoms and anger issues.  If none of these works, does he get regular exercise, which can also support mood disturbances?  Maybe there is something you can do together that would be a fun activity that will get you both going on a physical level to move some of the energy around.

The most important thing is for you to take care of yourself, and to stay out of the line of fire when his temper flares, and to remember that you are not the cause of his upset. When it comes to making a decision about whether to stay or go, it's important to keep in mind what kind of an example your husband is setting for your son, and how he sees you are responding to your husband's anger outbursts.  It will teach your son a lot about how to treat women in the future, bur it sounds like you already know this.

I certainly can appreciate that you have your hands full, and feel surrounded by ADHD.  You may want to consider getting counseling for yourself to keep your own self-esteem high, and to get some of the support it sounds like you badly need from a source outside your household.

I wish you the best.

Dealing with the anger spurts is the toughest part

I have been reading through this thread and am amazed at how much I have been seeing of my relationship. My husband is a great guy when he is not consumed by the ADHD. He is diagnosed and recently on meds. Even with the meds though he still has bouts of anger and frustration. He gets so mad at me over little things that are always my fault. He tells me that I keep frustrating him. It makes me feel as though I can't do anything right. We have a 6 month old girl and he is a great father. He leaves the room if he gets frustrated when she is there. This website is such a help to know that I am not alone and I have a place to talk. I am thinking of looking into therapy for us to help him. He said he is willing to try it. 

Glad to Know I am Not Alone

I found this site tonight when googling "husband anger" while I am sitting in the Walgreens parking lot in my car crying at 12:30am.  I have been married for 15 years and we have 5 kids (12, 13, 15, 18, 20).  My husband has ADHD and sees a doctor for meds.  I also have 3 kids with ADHD.  He had ADHD as a child and after his anger and boredom just kept getting worse and worse I gave him an ultimatum to see a doctor or leave.  He also quit drinking over a year ago and at first I thought that and the MEDS would help.  However it has not and continues to get worse.  The last three years since he lost his job he had for 15 years have been horrible.  His anger gets a hold of him and lasts for days at a a time.  Right now we are on the 6th day.  I can sense when these week long rages are coming and try to steer clear, however it doesn't matter.  He will find something to go off about.  He is not physically violent but he is so cold and angry during these episodes.  He has no patience, calls names, slams doors, nit picks every little thing.  It is horrible and I feel like a horrible mother for the way he treats our children...calling names and yelling when he is like this.  It is like he wants everyone else to feel as miserable as he feels.  I think he is depressed as well or a manic depression.  His father is also an angry negative person and I am afraid our sons will be the same way.  We got married and had kids young and we have always had our fights but he used to feel bad after a couple hours and apologize.  Now it is to the point where he threatens to leave and I tell him to go.  Half of me wants him to go and the other half wants him to stay.  He is in school and has a good future lined up.  We recently bought a nice house, and he has some nice toys.  He also had three surgerykeep telling myself if we can just get through the surgeries (he had three minor surgeries last year) and he can get a job then things will get better , if we get out of a too small rental home and get a new home it will get better, now it is once he gets through the last 2 terms at school and gets a good job (instead of a part Te crappy job it will get better.  But I am so hurt and resentful I am not sure I can get through this.   Most of those things have happened and he is still not better. He has bece lazybones I have to fight with him some days to go to work, but then he can't stand sitting around.  I work a lot of hours and have been throwing myself into work to avoid being home early, however when I do get home I want to relax.  He can't stand sitting home all time, yet when I tell h to go do something he says there is nothing to do.  He said he is done and is leaving on the morning after he called me and Fing B$*+* , but I have heard that before.  It is to the point where some of my kids want him to leave.  I have never been alone and am scared to death.  I have a good job and can support me and my kids so that is not an issue.  I am scared and hurt to give up the whole future we had planned.  I am a strong woman and he has forced me to be independent over the last couple of years...especially after he accused me of having an affair with my happily married boss.  From that point on I have had to edit everything I say and not talk to him about work or much at all because he may take something the wrong way.  He read my phone texts and saw one that was completely innocent and took it the wrong way.  He never used to be the jealous type, never and it hurt me a lot when that happened.  I have been faithful for the 15 years of marriage and the 4 years before that.  I feel so lonely and hurt and I really don't know what to do. 

You are not alone

>>>>> I found this site tonight when googling "husband anger" while I am sitting in the Walgreens parking lot in my car crying at 12:30am.

>>>>

 

I have done that several times.  I can't tell you how many times I have spent the entire night in a parking lot to escape my H's non-stop rages.   I can't tell people about them, they'd think I was crazy not to divorce him.  Our kids know this sometimes happen.  They've seen when sometimes I've actually hidden inside the house so that he'll think I'm gone.   - 

 

>>>>> 

I have been married for 15 years and we have 5 kids (12, 13, 15, 18, 20). My husband has ADHD and sees a doctor for meds. I also have 3 kids with ADHD.

<<<

 

Does he help you with the kids and home chores?  

 

>>>> 

He had ADHD as a child

>>>

 

So, did my H.  He was on Ritalin and phenobarbital , but I don't know why he was on that second med.    H never seemed to have asked his parents why he was seeing a psychiatrist as a child....and they didn't seem to want to tell him.  

 

>>>>

and after his anger and boredom just kept getting worse and worse I gave him an ultimatum to see a doctor or leave. He also quit drinking over a year ago and at first I thought that and the MEDS would help. However it has not and continues to get worse.

<<<<

 

Are you certain that he has stopped drinking?  HOw was he able to stop when he did?  Does he see a therapist?

 

>>>>

The last three years since he lost his job he had for 15 years have been horrible.

<<<

 

I can imagine.  If he hasn't worked in three years and with a large family to support, His self-esteem must be quite low.  

 

Why did he lose his job?  

>>>>>>>

His anger gets a hold of him and lasts for days at a a time. Right now we are on the 6th day. I can sense when these week long rages are coming and try to steer clear, however it doesn't matter. He will find something to go off about.

 

>>>>

 

 

He is not physically violent but he is so cold and angry during these episodes. He has no patience, calls names, slams doors, nit picks every little thing. It is horrible and I feel like a horrible mother for the way he treats our children...calling names and yelling when he is like this. It is like he wants everyone else to feel as miserable as he feels. I think he is depressed as well or a manic depression. His father is also an angry negative person and I am afraid our sons will be the same way. We got married and had kids young and we have always had our fights but he used to feel bad after a couple hours and apologize. Now it is to the point where he threatens to leave and I tell him to go. Half of me wants him to go and the other half wants him to stay. He is in school and has a good future lined up. We recently bought a nice house, and he has some nice toys. He also had three surgerykeep telling myself if we can just get through the surgeries (he had three minor surgeries last year) and he can get a job then things will get better , if we get out of a too small rental home and get a new home it will get better, now it is once he gets through the last 2 terms at school and gets a good job (instead of a part Te crappy job it will get better. But I am so hurt and resentful I am not sure I can get through this. Most of those things have happened and he is still not better. He has bece lazybones I have to fight with him some days to go to work, but then he can't stand sitting around. I work a lot of hours and have been throwing myself into work to avoid being home early, however when I do get home I want to relax. He can't stand sitting home all time, yet when I tell h to go do something he says there is nothing to do. He said he is done and is leaving on the morning after he called me and Fing B$*+* , but I have heard that before. It is to the point where some of my kids want him to leave. I have never been alone and am scared to death. I have a good job and can support me and my kids so that is not an issue. I am scared and hurt to give up the whole future we had planned. I am a strong woman and he has forced me to be independent over the last couple of years...especially after he accused me of having an affair with my happily married boss. From that point on I have had to edit everything I say and not talk to him about work or much at all because he may take something the wrong way. He read my phone texts and saw one that was completely innocent and took it the wrong way. He never used to be the jealous type, never and it hurt me a lot when that happened. I have been faithful for the 15 years of marriage and the 4 years before that. I feel so lonely and hurt and I really don't know what to do. >>>>>>>>>>>

ADHD and Anger

I just read through everyone's stories quickly as I know my own life is in the same spot!  My husband has been diagnosed with ADD and now depression. I have blogged on other posts on this website too.  He is on Adderall and Wellbutrin.  He has been going nowhere since Oct 2013 when first diagnosed.  He started on Concerta which seems to be a nasty drug, very irritable on it.  Then he went to Adderall which i think for the most part is working good since he is not as confused and is able to follow through pretty good with most everything, unless he is really tired then things go haywire.  Now...................the depression end of it has come about as a consequence of having the ADD and relationship problems, etc.  Of course I am to blame for his depression.  The meds here need to be adjusted I think still as he is very up and down with moods and same as you all...........very mean and picking on me all the time, gets our daughter saying mean things to me as well.  They seem to say that if you have a mental illness of some type, it will be "comorbid" with at least ONE other type of mental illness.  I beleive he has a third type of mental illness along with these two.  A couple of doctors have said that if he is on the meds for these, he SHOULD NOT be behaving this way still, it should have corrected him.  We are still awaiting some brain injury info as well as he has suffered a couple of really good blows to the forehead.  If anyone has had a hard knock on the frontal lobe get your spouse into doc to look in different direction as well.

Give him a break

BELIEVE IT OR NOT!!!!

ADHD Comes with a looooooot of anger. 

Also note that women and men are affected by this mental disorder differently.

I am actually one of the few women who are affected by adhd very similarly to men. When I am off my medication I am irritable, witty, rude, unwilling to do anything, hateful, and so much more. I can never control my emotions and I have a hard time not wanting to slap someone in the face. 

 

IF, your husband is experiencing all of this ON the medication, then he has been misdiagnosed. The medication is giving him those symptoms. When I am on my medication I am very Mello and relaxed and happy. ADHD Medication is supoosed to CALM you down and make things more clear for you. 

You need to understand that ADHD is real and if your husband says it's a symptom he MEANS it. Also maybe he just needs to change his medication? some adhd medications are really not very affective.

What you're doing wrong is not understanding his situation -- I hated my mom for a very long time because she always suspected and acted as though I was in complete control of my actions and emotions. When i would cry to her and apologize she'd accuse me of 'crocodile tears' -- assuming that I have no emotions at all, which then just infuriated me and made me want to slap her upside the head.

 

Advice?

Understand

Try and have him get other medication perscribed

Behavioral therapy -- YES this works, 

It helps you figure out how to deal with your emotions while on your medication

While ADHD medication might keep you from slapping someone, it doesn't solve the emotional intelligence part, ratherrr, you will just get confused and not know how to deal with a situation that you formerly used to solve with your fist. 

Give him a break

Are you on meds right now as you sound extremely angry.  I hear a lot of violence in your tone and it is quite scary.  The posts here are good for non-adhd spouses to compare what is going on so we all know whether or not it brings on the same issues.

Agree!!

>>> BELIEVE IT OR NOT!!!! ADHD Comes with a looooooot of anger. Also note that women and men are affected by this mental disorder differently. I am actually one of the few women who are affected by adhd very similarly to men. When I am off my medication I am irritable, witty, rude, unwilling to do anything, hateful, and so much more. I can never control my emotions and I have a hard time not wanting to slap someone in the face. >>> What meds do you find work for you?

A woman too...

I read these posts and realize as a woman I am behaving much like many of the husbands being described.  I feel strongly that PMS has a MAJOR affect on ADHD rage related episodes.  I have always had this problem the week before my cycle starts and I become an unrecognizable monster for about 2 days - it makes me ashamed that I cannot control this in me given success in all other facets of life.  If I ever saw a movie of my episodes - I would think it was a horror film.  No one other than my parents, my ex-husband, and now my current boyfriend have ever experienced these rages - I fear some day I will walk alone because I cannot grow out of this.

I&#039;m So Exhausted's picture

Hormones

BaT,

I would suggest you ask your doctor for help with Premenstrual dysphoric disorder.  My hormones fluctuated so much during the last 2 weeks of my cycle, it was miserable for me and for those around me.  PMDD takes usual annoyances, and multiplies the effect about 1,000 times.  A simple dish left in the living room becomes a life altering event!  Not good.  I used to tell my children to Steer Clear.  Then, I got medical help.  Starting on the 14th day of my cycle, I had a prescription that helped keep my emotions in balance.  I still usually had one bad day, usually the 18th day of my cycle, BUT exchanging one day for 2 plus weeks was a miracle.

PMS and PMDD are as much a horror for the sufferer as the family.  A tiny dose of Prozac each day, starting the 14th day, until my cycle started was a life changing event in my life.  

Help yourself.  Ask your doctor if this might be a help to you.

 

Liz 

Why is my ADHD husband so short tempered and angry?

I hear you AJ, it was like reading about my own marriage, especially the part of not wanting to be around other people because it can be embarrassing. I am new to this forum, I just found it a few days ago just hunting and searching for reasons why my husband can't seem to help his resentment of me and his anger over everything that has to do with me. I feel as if I found a lifeline here, up to this point I have been lonely and heartbroken..prone to crying at the drop of a hat. My husband has been diagnosed since he was in High School and I've heard him tell me how it affected everything about his life. When I first met him he was cocky and slightly controlling, but he had a charm that was irresistible. I was used to the control, having had a Sicilian father I felt right at home in this relationship. We have been together 14 years and the last 6 months have been a living hell. He was diagnosed with a back disorder which has put him on disability and ever since he has done a 100% change. He has never been a loving husband in the ways that would seem normal, but I always felt loved by him. I was used to him being on the cold side and not having much of a sex drive. I had gained quite a bit of weight over the years, and blamed myself for his lack of interest..but he still acted like he loved me, and liked me.This last year, I've lost 85 pounds..still on the heavy side, but getting more attractive.Not only has nothing changed in my love life, he hasn't even mentioned that I look better. I know he tells others all about me losing weight and they tell me he is proud of me, but he has never told me. In fact he has started bullying me, yelling at me constantly, blaming me for causing him stress. He doesn't want to talk to me, disengaging whenever I try to talk to him. I suffer from Rheumatoid Arthritis and I use a walker to get around..probably not that appealing, but he doesn't have any compassion- only what appears to be disgust. I have lost another 15 pds. this last few months and he actually accuses me of eating everything in the house! What happens is he drinks too much quite often, and will eat every 5 minutes, wasting much of it, and forgetting all of it the next day. He makes fun of my constant tears and I am tired of crying myself. I used to be a strong woman, now I'm starting to second guess myself that I am not all that he says I am. I feel nervous in my own home because everything I do is a reason for him to yell at me. He sleeps on he couch, always and if I were to wake up at am and make coffee, he will scream at me for waking him up. I spend much of my time alone in my bedroom, avoiding him while he is drunk in my living room and I feel safer in there. There are so many things that I have become accustomed too, but the worst is the constant fault he finds in me. I have mentioned divorce as I don't see any happiness in our future together, but he won't hear of it..telling me he is angry because his back hurts or that he is tired. I miss the love I used to see in his eyes, that is gone. This morning I mentioned to him that maybe his constant yelling could be from his ADHD and that maybe there is help for us. That started another round of bullying telling me I push his buttons and I ask for the yelling because I don't get it. A new remark was that this is why my dad died because my mom must have been like me. My dad died at 79 years old from emphysema long before I met my husband. He has told me before that he understands why my ex would hit me, I asked for it. My ex did hit me, that was why I divorced him, but how much is he searching for things to hurt me and why? I apologize for running on..but this is the first time I have actually felt comfortable talking about my life. I read from so many of you that have similar circumstances and I feel finally hopeful that I'm not the misery he says I am, maybe it isn't hate, but illness that drives this man. Thank you for listening.

it has gotten MUCH worse....

>>>> was like reading about my own marriage, especially the part of not wanting to be around other people because it can be embarrassing. >>>>

 

 

In the past, we could socialize with others, but H now has a LOT of pented-up anger, made worse with certain meds/booze, and I can no longer trust him to behave in many social settings. He now views social settings as an opportunity to "show the world" that I'm wrong. He won't accept the commonly known fact that when HE acts like a jerk to me in public, that only HE looks bad. We were with a friend in a store, and H didn't understand something I said. Instead of letting me clarify, he YELLED that I was a liar! Unbelievable. Of course I hadn't lied....he just misheard and misunderstood....but once he's emotional he won't listen.

I think my husband still has his childhood ADHD

My husband and I have been married 7 years and he has always been very snappy and let's little things get the best of him for example last night we were laying in bed he was watching tv usually I stay up a bit later than him and watch a tv show myself so he finally decides he wants to call it a night turns over and says "good night I'm going to bed not like you care or anything" and I was totally confused by what he was saying to me so I stay silent so he goes on to ask me "do you care?" so I reply with "I mean am I suppose to care your just going to bed you have to get up early right?" So he says "I don't get a kiss good night or anything" but he seems to have a slight attitude the entire time he is saying all of this to me so I completely ignore him so he tells me "mute the tv if your going to watch it or take your ass in the living room and watch it so I can sleep" at this time I am extremely confused did I do something wrong? I usually watch tv while he sleeps what is the issue? so I did not mute the tv but I did turn it down almost to zero he still had a problem and I felt as if he threw a tantrum he got up started yelling at me and went to sleep in the other room he does this all the time his anger and irrational antics come out of nowhere things can be going great then all of a sudden he snaps he was diagnosed with ADHD as a child but has not been to a doctor in his adult years and has never been on meds can this behavior be caused by the ADHD? I do love my husband very much but am so tired of getting miss treated for absolutely no reason

I can relate!!!

My husband and I have been married for awhile and he has always been very snappy and let's little things get the best of him for example last night we were laying in bed he was watching tv usually I stay up a bit later than him and watch a tv show myself so he finally decides he wants to call it a night turns over and says "good night I'm going to bed not like you care or anything" and I was totally confused by what he was saying to me so I stay silent so he goes on to ask me "do you care?" so I reply with "I mean am I suppose to care your just going to bed you have to get up early right?" So he says "I don't get a kiss good night or anything" but he seems to have a slight attitude the entire time he is saying all of this to me so I completely ignore him so he tells me "mute the tv if your going to watch it or take your ass in the living room and watch it so I can sleep" at this time I am extremely confused did I do something wrong? I usually watch tv while he sleeps what is the issue? so I did not mute the tv but I did turn it down almost to zero he still had a problem and I felt as if he threw a tantrum he got up started yelling at me and went to sleep in the other room he does this all the time his anger and irrational antics come out of nowhere things can be going great then all of a sudden he snaps he was diagnosed with ADHD as a child but has not been to a doctor in his adult years and has never been on meds can this behavior be caused by the ADHD? I do love my husband very much but am so tired of getting miss treated for absolutely no reason

<<<

 

I have had VERY similar things happen to me.  My therapist tells me that this is because my H also has a very low self-esteem.  No, you did nothing wrong.  They're in a bad mood over something unrelated to you, but they either aren't self-aware to know what they're really angry at....or they can't express their anger at who they are really angry at....so you become the target.   

At least your H goes to another room. My H typically will then order me to "sleep elsewhere" and if I don't move, he'll start yelling so that I can't sleep there anyway. And, even after I go elsewhere to sleep, he'll get up and yell at my door. I often just leave the house, but then he'll call and rant to me by phone or text. I turn off the phone and then he threatens to destroy something of mine if I don't respond. It is extremely abusive behavior.

 

In their sick world, they are "hurting" over something, and they expect you, (their loved one) to make it all better.  And if you aren't seen as trying to make things better than you are "hurting them" and not showing love.  

 

I believe that some/much of this is because these types ALSO have something else wrong with them....OCD, a personality disorder, anxiety, depression, an addiction, executive function disorder, etc.   I don't think it is only ADHD.....unless it's a severe form.   

Melissa Orlov's quote:

Melissa Orlov's quote:

 

>>>>>

Short and sweet - your husband is using his ADHD as an excuse unless he is doing ALL that he can to get past the anger issues that he has.  Sounds as if the meds he is on are not working as well as they could, or if the meds are actually optimal, he needs to do something else.  

 

One very effective mood regulator is exercise.  He might try very regular aerobic exercise to see if that helps.  

>>>>

 

Yes! I do notice that my H is in a much better mood if he's exercised....but only if the exercise his HIS choice....and not done to an extreme (he sometimes exercises to an extreme, and then has to spend a couple of days in bed with sore muscles and no energy. ) If the exercise is not by his choice, say walking around a LOT on vacation, then he's still vulnerable to have a break down or temper tantrum. WE once spent 7 days straight on a major walking tour vacation (exhausting for the rest of us), but H complained that we hadn't scheduled any "gym time" for him. huh? Gym time? Who could go work out at the gym after walking several miles a day??? The rest of us (we were traveling with a group), were shocked my his words....and sure enough, he left the group at about 4 pm and went and worked out at gym for 2 hours!!! The rest of us were looking for chairs to sit!!! I do now understand why his mom let him spend all day out of the house (she never knew where he was). She likely did it to get him out of her hair but also in hopes that his activities would exhaust him when he got back.

 

<<<<<<<<<<

Another good mood regulator can be meditation.  He may not be a meditation type of guy, but he might look at it another way - either he gets his anger under control or your relationship is going to be badly affected.  Going part way doesn't cut it in this case...you are already trying to get out of his way...and that means that this ought to continued to be addressed until you get to a balance that BOTH of you can live with.

<<<<< My H actually "likes" to take meds. He's a pill junkie in a way....thinks that there is a magic bullet out there that will make him feel better. However, he sometimes resists the idea of meds that are specific to anything that suggests that his anger/issues are because of HIM. He wants to believe that everyone around him mistreats him so, he'll say that he doesn't want to take meds that "will make me not get angry when OTHER people are terrible to me. " Most people aren't "terrible to him." He just reacts as if they are.

 

>>>>>>>

Also, excellent treatment includes therapy with a goal towards behavior modification.  In this case, controlling his anger and/or impulsiveness sounds as if it's an important first thing to modify.  (Note here - my hubby used to have spurts of anger, which may be different from what you're experiencing.  He found that using Wellbutrin as his ADHD med also addrressed his anger at the same time.  He also has worked hard to develop specific habits that pull us together, rather than force us apart.)

<<<< About 18 years ago, H was put on Wellbutrin. I can't remember why. Anyway, he claims that he didn't like it because it made his feelings to be "too flat". That is good! lol.....but he thinks that it is "fake" because he thinks that he has a RIGHT to be super-angry at people for treating him so badly. He doesn't want a drug that will just keep him "calm" when he should be furious for all the "mistreatment."

 

 

<<<<<<<<

I'm curious about your statement that he has been particularly short tempered lately.  Does this change coincide with a new treatment regimen or specfic event? >>>>> For my H, there are various triggers....I think he over-medicates. He also takes some kind of "meds" to help build "manly muscles" (not steroids), and I think that agitates him. He also "bruises" easily.....takes things tooooooooooo personally. Gets upset if others have a different opinion about something. Needs the "validation" that comes from someone having the "same opinion" or someone making the "same choices" as him. <<<<<<<<  Never assume that the meds are doing what you think they ought to do with ADHD and emotional stuff.  Some have some pretty weird side effects.  Experimentation is often needed to get to the right combo for any individual.  In the experimental stages, it might be helpful if you are his partner in observing the side effects.  For example, with his okay, keep notes on what time of day he is particuarly cranky, the situations in which he gets angry, etc.  Not only do the meds sometimes have side effects, but also having the meds wear off can have side effects, too (which is what shows up at certain times of day).

<<<< Yes, I do think some meds don't help. >>>>>>

People with ADD can over-react to things - they can be easily stimulated...or...sometimes people with ADD like the intense simulation of fighting and look for fights to get into in order to be stimulated...or...sometimes people with ADD express their anger more readily than others because they have poor impulse control.  Or, there might be something else going on.  Make sure your hubby is with a person who is a real ADD specialist, not just a generalist, so that he has the highest chance of getting to the bottom of perhaps intertwined things that are going on with him.

>>>>> Yes, I need to learn more about why this is. >>>>>

Anger can also be a reflex that has to do with shame, which is something that people with ADD often struggle with.  See "How to Improve Your Marriage Without Talking ABout It" for more on this topic.

<<<< <<<<<< H has a lot of shame! And he reacts with anger. >>>>>>

Sometimes it's hard to pull apart the "tangle" of symptoms and figure out exactly how to treat them.  But keep trying, because it's important to you, as well as him, and ultimately will make a huge difference in your relationship.  You don't want to be questionning him AND you (which is already starting to happen).

I&#039;m So Exhausted's picture

My paradigm again

Short and sweet - your husband is using his ADHD as an excuse unless he is doing ALL that he can to get past the anger issues that he has.  

I believe the final reality that got me - following closely by the fact that 4 years of intense focus and work and trying this and trying that - we even did Melissa's Couple Sessions -  is enough for me - my spouse will say, "No I didn't."  "No, I don't."  "I am on time most of the time."  "I did the dishes."  "I didn't cancel the fence."    His denial is strong.  And he attempts to turn it all around into , "You expect too much."  "I can never get anything good enough for you."  "I have never told anyone what I have to put up with, your family would be shocked."  

That gives me no hope what so ever that he has any responsibility in making this better, or even to make things better.   
 

Liz

Passive-aggressive and ADHD

This sounds like passive aggressive behavior, a poorly concealed form of hostility. If a result of the ADHD it's could be due to errors (distortions) of perception on his part (incorrect judgements of other peoples motives, unable to correctly perceive emotions and so on). It could be the result of adapting bad coping skills due to feelings of continually being criticized or 'not good enough' as a child/adult. Is he willing to treat the ADHD? (Edited to add: if he had ADHD as a child, he has it now. People don't grow out of it.

I sometimes think my husband

I sometimes think my husband could be mildly bipolar because of all of his random mood swings and petty fits I don't know how true it is that ADHD can cause an adult man to act in this manner my h has never blamed the way he acts on his ADHD he never talks about it at all except the fact he had it as a child but he has not been treated for behavioral problems since childhood he was placed on medication that he claimed made him very lethargic and was soon after took off the meds and his mother loaded him up on caffeine I know if I tell my husband he needs to see someone about this problem he will never go and it may cause an argument I don't know what to do my h is very head strong stubborn and set in his ways

The good things here..

"since childhood he was placed on medication that he claimed made him very lethargic and was soon after took off the meds and his mother loaded him up on caffeine"

First, there are more options available as far as medication is concerned. Second, stimulants seem to work for him if he was using caffeine. These are both encouraging and if you can work around putting it that way to him, on the basis that his life can be improved, then the outlook for him would be brighter. One thing that worked with my husband was 'if you have a chance to make your life better, wouldn't you take it'. Ultimately many men like to 'fix things' - it may be that your partner is discouraged by his earlier experience with meds, feels hopeless and doesn't want to risk 'failing' again because then he will feel worse about himself (broken and unfixable). But the mere fact that he told you about the ADHD does mean that he's thinking about it.

Is there a medical reason for their anger?

Just throwing a question out here. Is there a MEDICAL reason that so many people with ADHD have such anger issue? or is it a "learned" thing? or possibly BOTH?

    I'm just wondering, because my ADHD husband at times too has anger issues. He is MUCH better now because he's really trying to control more of what he says, but for YEARS people would shy away from him because he always "looked" and "acted" angry. He'd get upset that people wouldn't approach him or talk to him, and I'd try to tell him why, and he'd get ANGRY about it, saying "I'm NOT ANGRY!". His answer would sort of verify what the rest of us observed.

     Since they don't get social cues very well, it's understandable why they can't seem to comprehend what they LOOK like to others. But, they also won't listen when people try to tell them how they can CHANGE this. Is THAT part of ADHD also?

I&#039;m So Exhausted's picture

What can a man do with anger

dedelight4,

Anger is a big issue in my relationship.  I allowed my spouse to control our marriage with his anger for many years.  

Funny thing, for years he had always referred to himself as The Gentle Giant.  He is 6' 4" tall and is large - his knee is the size of a saucer!  He was raised with the Turn the Other cheek mentality.  He often shared a story of how when he was a teen, a bully knocked him down, sat on his chest and punched him in the face - and he ended up with a broken nose.  He "chose" to not fight back.

He currently like to share a story of his "discovery" of how powerful he can be.  He was talking with a young man in his early 20s who had been on the softball team my spouse had coached.  My spouse somehow cornered him and pinned him up against his service truck, had his left hand pressing against the truck, and was forcefully talking right in the young man's face, while pounding his right fist against the truck.  He scared the bejeebers out of the young man.  My spouse revels in telling that story - and seems totally oblivious to how the young man felt, but revels in how powerful it made him feel.  He laughs when he shares it.  

So we have a marriage that has fallen into pieces - with a man who was "the gentle giant" and is now angry at how passive he was, and the wife who smiled and did everything her spouse wanted to keep him happy and now sees the mistake and refuses to be controlled any longer.

And then add in the medical diagnosis of ADHD at a 9 out of 10 scale. . . . . yep a holy mess. 

I had thought we could make this work by each looking at the others strengths and re-negotiating our relationship.

My spouse sees how he was passive with "others", but unfortunately, he is trying to be, as he calls it, the man of the house with me.  His anger and frustration was always misplaced at home.  So for me, it seems like he is twice as bad as he was. The only place he had control was at home - and now he lost that.

Liz

 

 

Anger is often an

Anger is often an inarticulate reaction to hurt (a scream of pain). Of course in those circumstances a human is going to attempt to control the thing that causes the pain. to make it stop. ADHD or not. Given that emotional lability sometimes (often? IDK) accompanies ADHD it's not that surprising that excessive reactions and excessive emotions occur. Just my view.

"they also won't listen when people try to tell them how they can CHANGE this. Is THAT part of ADHD also"

I posted a link a few days ago discussing how teen brains often react to criticism. They literally become unable to function in the normal way when processing negative emotions. I believe a similar effect may be occuring with ADHD, of course I am not a researcher and don't play one on the internet, however the similarities are interesting.

Sunlight, my husband told me

Sunlight, my husband told me a few times that when I would say to him (which I rarely did, knowing how touchy the subject was) that I would like it if he looked for a job, his brain would tell him to do the opposite.  Very frustrating.  As is the fact that he didn't look for work when I wasn't expressing my view, either.

Sounds like a teenager

.. going through a phase. But he hasn't come out of it. (Sorry to state the obvious). The research on teenagers included scanning their brains, something I think would be helpful for all ADHD people so that they gain a fuller understanding of themselves.

Why the anger

I think that many with ADHD also have other issues.....depression, anxiety, OCD, Executive Function Disorder etc. I think during much of their lives they have been criticized by others....parents, teachers, friends, loved ones, etc....because of their behaviors, their illogic , their perceived laziness, their inability to "think outside the box", lack of foresight, often keeping others waiting, being late, etc. I think that hearing criticisms most of their lives has MADE them angry.

True. And because of all of

True. And because of all of this they've had to be on the defensive from the beginning; it's a knee jerk reaction to anything not going right or to any criticism.  Plus they're mad and disappointed at themselves most of the time too. They've disappointed others and themselves all of their lives.  I know, I'm one of them.  Because we're distracted within our own heads all of the time, then we really don't tolerate the constant distractions of young children, and even more when the child(ren) also have ADD and are constantly distracting the adult and talking non-stop from the time they wake up until the time they go to sleep. They feel like their brain is about to explode at some point every day.  It's torture to live in an ADD brain!

Weak right brains

Too bad Brain Balance wasn't available a long time ago when those of us with ADD or ADHD were kids so that we could do something to strengthen the right brain.  The left brain is the "gas pedal" and is on GO, GO, GO, with no right brain to tell it to put on the brakes.  There are changes us adults can still do though to strengthen our right hemisphere though; major changes in diet, certain music, smell, and physical exercises for the body and the eyes. At least my child is getting help; have noticed an improvement within the first week already!  It's worth a try, you can read about it in Dr. Robert Melillo's book:  Disconnected Kids

should I stop now......

From my perspective it is about getting the meds right, you can say and do all you want about having patience and love for the adhd spouse......but they dont understand that from you unless medicated eith sonething that works for them!
bdbunce85's picture

Im That Husband

Hey I showed this to my wife and she said that she felt like she wrote it..

Your Husband prob. loves you more than you think i Love my kids and wife more than anything in this world its just hard to show love. Alot of people with adhd have problems showing love with my son i act all tough with him constantly i dont notice that im doing it until my wife says somthing to me i have a very hard time showing emotions and i hate it, i treat my wife like shit alot and she doesnt deserve that at all but it got alot better longer we ben together. sometimes i think about when we first got together how she stayed with me i was so damn controlling i didnt want her having no guy friends and judge what she was wearing who she hung out with what she was doing everything i never layed a hand on her and never will i just emotionally abused her like a jerk  . I hate having adhd its so damn exhausting your mind runs constantly. i ben on adderal sence i was 5 years old... does your husband mood change with blink of an eye when he gets mad he prob stays mad i was looking up adhd and marraige because i dont want to be like this no more i want to be normal and treat me wife and kids great like they deserve . they are my world and sometimes its hard to show that. im worn out with my mind running constantly its not a good feeling at all and treating your love ones like dirt is not acceptable most time i dont notice im doing it untill everyone is asleep and i start thinking then i start feeling worse.. sence i was 5 they had me in anger management and therapy nothing helps when i take adderal it helps a little then when i start coming off of it it starts getting worse ... Your husband loves you more then you think its just hard showing it does he wrestle or play fight with the and sometimes he gets to rough .when he calls you names he doesnt mean it one bit its just venting .. when i get mad and start calling my wife names i dont mean it all i just dont know how to get mad with out breaking punching stuff so when her or the kids get me mad i dont hit them i just use words to hurt them because i dont know what else to do i would never ever physically lay a hand on her or my kids but calling names hurts just as much .. i want to show love without violence.. if you have any solutions please let me know .....

Your H sounds a LOT like my H....

Ask your H if it would be ok for you to record him so that he can later "hear" how he speaks to you.

 

What drug does he take for Road Rage?

 

Going to a MD is not enough.  Is he seeing a therapist as well?  

 

What you're describing is NOT likely only ADHD.  You've described my H...really....and he has an Axis II personality disorder (likely Borderline PD), Major Mood Depression, OCD, and Anxiety.  Over the last 10 years, he has become an alcoholic, but he's always had addictive behaviors and the desire for a "quick fix" (pill, whatever) to fix whatever is bothering him at the moment....which makes him very vulnerable for drug and pill addictions.   He doesn't want to admit that he's addicted to pain meds, but he is.  

 

Since you've only been married a year, you need to "get serious" and make some decisions before it's too late.  I was terribly naive early in our marriage.  I knew nothing about ADHD, etc.   All I knew is that my H was a "hot head" and could get angry at very small things.  He also scared the crap out of me a few times when he "felt" that some other driver had "cut him off" or some other small thing.  He would take it upon himself to "drive crazy" get too close to that person to "show him".    

 

I , too, am a strong woman so his insults were like teflon.  However, the problem is being with him around others.  He is just so rude.  If something annoys him or he's annoyed with me, he will "make sure" everyone knows.   If he's mad at me, he wants the world to know it.  He finally stopped doing that after 30 years when our new neighbors were snubbing him because of what they had witnessed.  He went over and apologized and then promised me that he was turning over a new leaf...but it took 30 years of hell to get to this place.  

 

I have LONG given up doing things with friends with H around.  I just can't trust him.  He has humiliated me on a few occasions, therefore I won't give him those opportunities anymore.  I will do things with friends away from him.  

 

My family hates him, and they typically love and welcome anyone.  My family is NOT one to dislike in-laws.  But, they have witnessed some horrible behaviors, so they're right to dislike him.  

 

This is why you need to be very careful before proceeding with this marriage.

 

Our children do NOT like their father AT ALL.  They do not respect him.  They have BEGGED me to divorce him.  this is very sad.  I was able to keep their dad away from them as much as possible, but they were still impacted by his craziness and temper.  

Comorbid issues, meds and anger

If your kids are saying divorce, divorce..............they feel all the pain too and if they can make up their own minds to say they don't like him................go..............they will have psychological damage from all this.  I have lived it!!

 

Please help. My husband was

Please help. My husband was diagnosed with adhd when he was younger and I think it never really went away. He doesn't think he has adhd from the start as he's mother told him the school are just finding out a way to stop kids from being too rowdy in class. No one in his family noticed this but my whole family and random people who have met her thinks she has some sort of autism. I can't explain it but there's something very off about her. Anyways my husband of only a year started changing straight away when we got married. He started talking to me rudely all the time. There's always something wrong with whatever I do. He find little faults to get mad at me. I gain abit of weight since we got married but I'm not over weight or anything. And he constantly make me feel bad about it. Calling me obese and making walk/exercise more because he said he doesn't like how I look and he thinks it's disgusting. I can't sit with him on the couch cos he gets annoyed. I can't hold his hand, I can't touch his face, I can't hug him and there's always different reason to as why he doesn't want too. I get told off with little noise when he's asleep. If I don't beg him for any attention he would lock himself up in the room and just be on the computer all the time. He doesn't show any affection toward me. We barely have sex! Only random time when he really need it. He will just come behind me while I'm cooking or maybe when I'm asleep. I feel used. I don't really know how this thing works. I'm not really good at expressing my feeling but since all this started i developed anxiet, panic disorder and when I sleep I clench my teeth n my hands. I'm soooo oo oo stressed put i don't know what to do. I wanna leave because this is not the man I married but I'm still hoping to get him back. I never really did anything wrong so I just don't understand. Now I just try to avoid him cos everyday there always something ffor him to point out n it's upsetting me. It's like I'm tip toeing in my own house. I'm afraid to become his parent. they live a separate lives in one house barely talking to each other. P.s I have told him about my feeling many times nicely. I told him im not happy anymore but it turns to arguments cos he doesn't know why I would feel thay way. I feel like he's in capable of loving or showing love but that's not the case when we wer still dating. I have also gave him an article about adhd stuff and I told him calmly and lovingly told him how I would i appriate him reading it but he started getting mad at me. I don't know what else to do. I tell him everyday I love him and when he starts talking me rudely I calmly tell him I love him and tell him it's upsetting me how he talks to me. I'm personally a very sweet person. Everyone loves me. HIs family. I cook for my neighbours take care of all of his nneeds . There's always food in the table. Packed lunch to bring to work. ... soooo what else can I do oo? ??? Prostrated.

I had to double check the

I had to double check the original poster on this bc for a second I thought maybe I was the author and just forgot about it!!!! WOW. That's all I have to say. I have zero solutions unfortunately as I am in the exact same boat.

My husband is very lazy,

My husband is very lazy, irresponsible and just sits at home doing facebook or net browsing or sleeping. I have been married for 17 years  and over the years he has gone from bad to worse and I fear that with age, things will get much worse. I have a day job and my salary keeps things going. But I really worry about the future as I cannot rely on him for anything. I have no family support as my parents are sick and old. His parents were always mean and greedy and never the type to give. After his father passed away, his mother who is a manipulative woman, now takes away a good chunk of his mind. All day long, he is either on face book or talking over phone to his mother or browsing aimlessly or watches TV. If I give him any chore, he will either never do it or do it so badly that I have to re- do it.  I am just loosing my mind. We rent and do not own our own home. We have no retirement savings and my husband just does not care about it. Add to it, an MIL who will demand that we pay for her expense to travel overseas as she thinks that my life is too easy. My husband has a poor perception of things, no real desire to work in the area that he calls himself to be passionate and finally, he just talks and talks which is absolutely nonsense. 

I just wish that I could quit but I dont have the courage. My husband WONT take any kind of medical help or counseling to help him with his condition as he believes that he is a super brilliant guy and everybody else is wrong. I am always having to give some dumb excuse when my friends and co-workers ask about his employment. I cannot start my own thing even with a friend as my husband will want to be an important part of it and then ruin it. In places where I got a job, I have tried to push his CV but nobody will take him. I feel bad about it and he just gets bitter and bitter. He says the "system" does not know how to treat an intelligent guy like him ( which is nonsense). 

I do all the work at home, make dinner, clean up, sort bills to be paid and pay the bills and more, besides my day job. All day long he is just with FB and phone. I am now beginning to feel the burden. To cope with my stress, I get into periods of fantasy anytime of the day, and imagine being happily married to a wonderful and responsible man. I have literally fallen in love with my imaginary man and wish he would come alive. I get into this so often that I fear it is going to have a bad impact...but I cannot help it. 

Can someone tell me, if my husband is having ADHD based on my description of him? What is the way out of it? 

 

Well a few thoughts from a

Well a few thoughts from a person with some similar issues with mood regulation.     Short temper, chronic irritability and a low frustration threshold have been for me life-long issues.    Although some of this has improved with age,   it is still ever present.      Of all the things that wreak havoc in my life, mood instability is *easily* the most debilitating and ultimately distressing for all.    As such this particular groups of habits is something I have invested a lot of time trying to get my head around. 

I think of ADHD in large part as a mood regulation disorder as much anything else, and personally find that it’s being captured by these rapid, unpredictable and extreme swings of mood that sets up a feedback loop that  is ultimately one of my main reason for distraction.

   I have read that much of ADHD is thought to involve parts of the brain that control task and set shifting and prevent excessive perseveration of thought.    So.  For instance, it is common for nonADD folk to say they feel like they have to constantly walk on eggshells around their ADHD spouse.   This barely under the surface irritability is often a constant presence, and for me is the reason for having a short fuse.  Fact is most of the time I am irritable in some form or another, sometimes I just manage to hide it.   I see it as a consequence of frustration and the feeling of always being crowded all the time. To a nonADD, the best slightly trite example I could give would be;   imagine you are trying to have a conversation with someone, you are trying listening intently but all the while in the background you have 5 other people talking, all hopping on the spot and waving their arms vying for your attention, on top of that someone is playing music loudly and flicking the lights on and off constantly and someone else is flicking through the tv channel with the volume up full.  Now chances are that after putting up with this for five minutes, trying to collect your thoughts all the extra noise is going to get on your nerves right?   Secondly say this happens constantly, your whole life, every waking minute, this is going to have you drive you nuts to start with, but what happens longer term is that we develop lopsided coping strategies to cope with this.

This adaption often results however in hyper focus, and moreover this hyper focus tends to be on high stimulus activity, mainly because the level of external stimulus in these activities is able to compete with all the background noise. So then we are already edgy, but in order to focus we corral all our scattered thoughts and to the exclusion of all else we hyperfocus on whatever it is.  Of course this is far easier if the activity has a high stimulus payload because we don’t need to work as hard at maintain focus. Hyper focus is bliss. It’s like meditation in a floatation tank.  All that noise goes away. It’s peace at last.      

Unfortunately now we are hyper focused, we have pretty much invested everything in the moment such that when someone or something disrupts that, by wanting attention or something trivial then that can result in an immediately angry or irritated response often way over the top.  

With all respect due, I also personally think Melissa’s description of anger as it relates to ADHD to be simplistic, and maybe not overly helpful.   It is true that anger per se is not a defining attribute of ADHD.   But that is a little like saying that depression is not a defining attribute of long term anxiety.     ADHD IS frustration.  It’s all about not being able to fulfill goals because goals by their very nature require sustained focus.   So we are frustrated in our goals, in fact coming up with concrete goals itself requires substantial focus!  Use lists they say, well use a list has always been the first thing on my list.      If you think about anger as a manifestation of frustration then the constant irritability actually makes perfect sense, especially so if you compound this with the sleep, and substance abuse issues that are so prevalent with ADHD.

ADHD people often react to sustained frustration in multiple ways; they may get irritable and angry, they may give up mid task either because the sustained focus effort is too hard or low self-confidence results in giving up so as to avoid a potential failure and consequent damage to self-esteem.    I have also noticed that decent proportion of ADHD people (myself included) seem to not gain the extended reward feeling from successfully completing a project.   I know myself that even if I may have some cause to be humble satisfied with my efforts on a project, I am simply not remotely driven by a sense of achievement.  I have never felt that sense of reward or achievement from completing something, at least no more than a very fleeting one.  Just a big empty.    Don’t underestimate the impact that this may have as it’s the dopamine released in our brains as a result of success that drives us to want to achieve things in the first place.     
 For me it’s always been the journey, if that is interesting, then I can focus and that is rewarding, well at least occupying.  Success and Achievement? Not so much and even slightly anti-climactic.

Personally I cannot stand stimulant type medications.    I just don’t feel like myself, and my long suffering partner hated the effect they had on me as they seemed to make my moods even more mobile than they already are.      After trying many different meds, I settled on a pretty high dose of Cymbalta,    and while it has not necessarily made big improvements to my levels of focus, what it has done is knock my anxiety stone dead, which has been transformative in terms of mood and emotional stability.

By reducing constant anxiety, it had a knock on effect of reducing depression because I cared less that I would fail and I also gained a lot of self-confidence and literally went from a bit of hermit to not giving two hoots about what people think. All of a sudden I didn't feel under siege all the time, nor am I so anxious about failing that I live in that ADHD procrastination no mans land that seems so prevalent in ADHD.    

Our condition is complicated, but at its core it’s all about frustration in some form or another, of which irritability, anger, anxiety, depression, despair and hopelessness are manifestations.      I tried to fix the focus and ended up settling on reducing my level of anxiety instead, the end result however has been the same for my partner and apart from the occasional feelings of indifference to everything,  I am much MUCH easier to live with and my family don’t feel they need to tip toe around me.     I still struggle with focus, sure, but at least I may be  tolerable to be around, and I don't miss the wild mood swings one tiny bit. 

Apologies for the long post, but as I say it’s complicated.   I wish you all the best. 

Jon! Thank you!

How very good it was to read your post.  I don't have ADHD.  My husband does.  My learning curve about ADHD began a few months before the wedding.  We've been married only for a few years so I certainly do feel like I'm still in the first period of learning about it.  

You wrote:

For instance, it is common for nonADD folk to say they feel like they have to constantly walk on eggshells around their ADHD spouse.   This barely under the surface irritability is often a constant presence, and for me is the reason for having a short fuse.  Fact is most of the time I am irritable in some form or another, sometimes I just manage to hide it.   I see it as a consequence of frustration.

Your discussion of frustration leading to irritation made tremendous sense to me.  I'm not a bad reader of body movement and facial expression as a general rule.  Growing up, I had to learn to be sensitive to these things, and read them right, so I'd say I'm pretty practiced at it, even before relationship with my husband.  There has always, to me at least, been a dissonance between my husband's very frequent body demeanor, including facial expression, and his baseline sweet temper.  He's such a kind decent man, but one often with bunched shoulders, jagged movements and often something that sure looks like irritation on his face.  I couldn't compute the two.  I think you've given me an angle on why the physical "acting out" didn't fit the man, so to speak.  Our temporary way of handling it, and he uses it with me too, is to ask, straight out: "are you irritated with me? are you angry with me?" and trust the answer coming back.   So very, very often yes there was something that was kicking his anxiety up notches or was frustrating him, and it wasn't me.  

It makes so much sense that the frustration and anxiety load is very high for someone with ADHD.  So much sense.  

Just a small contribution of a detail to your fine post, which to me wasnt' too long because change so very often happens in details, after all:  just as soon as my new husband and I started to live together 24/7, some things that I hadn't seen started to become visible.   Such as that by the end of the day, no matter what activities either of us has done that day, my husband is completely worn out.   I've mulled that exhaustion that I've seen in him at the end of the day.  I know where mine comes from, and have a good sense of my own tiredness due to an extra load of worry, if that is going on.   I have considered that his ADHD wears him out daily.   Your post tells me that this might indeed be the case: the need to pour more energy into focus, into emotion management, into remembering, into (at our house) rectifying losses, misplacement, spills, and even managing dealing with me...since I'm not always on his horizon or act in ways that are understandable to him.   ADHD looks like it is very wearing to deal with.  I'd say that anxiety and frustration that you describe are big reasons for that.

Thank you again.

Now

Jon...This is great info.

So true and so revealing...Thanks for Sharing...You got a chuckle out me w/ "using a list has always been the first thing on my list." I also use to wonder, "why all the messiness"!...I eventually got it....With some adhd minds, if they aren't falling over it, it doesn't exist....

Most days are like hunting for Easter Eggs here....:)

Thanks for the insight....And I'm sure glad you found something to help w/ the anxiety...

C

"With some adhd minds, if

"With some adhd minds, if they aren't falling over it, it doesn't exist...."  Lol.   You would not believe what it is possible for me to walk past without noticing. As you say, sometimes, unless something reaches out and punches me in the face I can totally miss it. Just off in another world.     And boy do I get that this must be a frustration for our partners!     I used to frequently get so distracted I would forget to even eat for days on end, it would not be until my partner noticed that I had a particular manic but scattered behavior and she would step in and ensure that I ate something!    Having spoken to many other ADD folk, I know I am not alone on this.

   Now if you think about that for a minute, it means that for some of us our level of distraction is such that it manages to completely blot out something as basic and fundamental as hunger pain for days on end!  So if it is a challenge to even focus to ensure we eat enough to sustain ourselves then that growing pile of clothes in the corner has no chance.   I’m not ever going to conform to any sort of ‘normal’ and think that part of our recovery is coming to terms with this fact and then learning to accept ourselves.  I guess that’s one reason it’s slightly dispiriting find so much negativity directed towards ADD, we can medicate, but at the end of the day we were made like this and every person deserves to be able to live their life not feeling like they are some broken defect that needs to be drugged into submission.      

If an ADDer manages to accept themselves, to have some sense of pride about themselves instead of the disgust and disapproval projected onto them over a life time then I would hazard a guess that the levels of frustration and anger would be greatly reduced.   Hating yourself is a sure way to spend your life angry an unhappy. Our lives and interactions with the outside world have taught many of us to despise what we are with a level of animosity that may be hard for the non-add person to grasp.  There is no level of hatred or anger that has even come close to that which I have felt towards myself for being what I saw as so fundamentally broken and unable to just snap out of it and be ‘normal’.   This is common enough in ADD folk I think this may be an attempt at self-motivation at the end of a sharp stick, for all the good it does.

Personally I think that ADD people don’t need a cure, we just need to be set free J

Jon...

 ( I guess that’s one reason it’s slightly dispiriting find so much negativity directed towards ADD, we can medicate, but at the end of the day we were made like this and every person deserves to be able to live their life not feeling like they are some broken defect that needs to be drugged into submission.)      

I agree...but, there is one thing I would add here...I think non's can be insensitive to what you say is part of you. (how you were created)...In my experience it's not the add or the person, that is frowned on by non spouses,...It's the effects on them....It's like being forced to take shock treatments when there isn't anything wrong with you!...Not everyone with adhd is aware, and owns it.....Many are victims and if you point out THEIR intrusive behavior....That makes you a target....LOL....So like I said, it's not the person they love nor the fast mind they possess, it's the failure to manage their own lives....

(Personally I think that ADD people don’t need a cure, we just need to be set free)

I do too Jon....It works so much better for everyone...

Blessings

C

 

Freedom from within

Just my tuppence on this:

A major topic of this thread is anger.  Although the world is full of acts of unfairness, mistreatments and injustices...as well as acts of courage, kindness and generosity...anger always comes from within, and pours out t the outside world

Jon, you've brought up freeing.  Spiritual and emotional freeing come from within and pour out to the outside world.  That's how I see it operating in my house.

Jon, I so appreciate what you write about the need to accept oneself as one really is.

Again speaking as someone without ADHD, although not "normal" myself, living with a beloved man who has ADHD and the evidence is very strong that from his childhood has always been himself, whatever flak he caught for it...and he did catch flak...the report from our house is that as he discovered that he didnt need to hide and defend himself at home, he began to accept that I am who I am with my own ways 

Freedom begins in one's own heart.  It grows in acts of self tending and self care.  In time one's own new freedom has grown strong enough that one can draw on it as a resource, to allow one's neighbor, or spouse, or child, to be who they are, as they are, and work out their own self care and growth their own way.

There's an old saying that crops up from time to time that as one finds how to love oneself, that the very kinds of people around one, the people one chooses to be with change.  If one frees oneself, one ends up freeing other people and being around freer people.  My husband is exhibit A of that.

But a coda to that: if one partner in a marriage is about the business of turning resentment, judgementalism, fear, anger, childish thinking, avoidance, and attempts to control on things and people outside of him/herself, that too has an impact on the other partner.  Denial of oneself is a very, very big topic on this board.  Had my husband not long, long since stood up for himself and taken on the responsibility of his own freedom, I would hope to God, and I do not take my Lord's name in vain, that I would never have even begun to date him...given my life history, his ADHD plus denial and projection of that magnitude would have killed me to be near.

But back to reality: despite some very bad treatment growing up, he began caring for and accepting himself early on.  So he freed himself before we began, and so all that he needed to do was to discover that in our house he could put his soul armor down, and take it off.... and he could relax and accept that I, too, was myself, didnt have to be him, think like him, or act like him.   

 

The difference in living at home with an adult who hasnt accepted and taken responsibility for him/herself and one who has is very drastic.  

  

Now and Jon........Becoming an Expert "On Yourself"

Jon,

I'm with you on everything you said here ( and to a certain degree ) I know this one too...very well.

" If an ADDer manages to accept themselves, to have some sense of pride about themselves instead of the disgust and disapproval projected onto them over a life time then I would hazard a guess that the levels of frustration and anger would be greatly reduced.   Hating yourself is a sure way to spend your life angry an unhappy. Our lives and interactions with the outside world have taught many of us to despise what we are with a level of animosity that may be hard for the non-add person to grasp.  There is no level of hatred or anger that has even come close to that which I have felt towards myself for being what I saw as so fundamentally broken and unable to just snap out of it and be ‘normal’.   This is common enough in ADD folk I think this may be an attempt at self-motivation at the end of a sharp stick, for all the good it does.

Personally I think that ADD people don’t need a cure, we just need to be set free J "

I was thinking about this as I read it...and I have my own thoughts about this I'd like to share?  It is exactly what I thought about in the moment...to put this into perspective for myself.  I wanted to tie into this what both NOW and Melissa said in this thread as well and put this all together in context to how I am seeing things now both for myself and for my wife in contrast who has ADHD but is very much in that defensive , angry and reactive mode seemingly all the time.  It seeps out her pores even when she's not actually angry...but it is so close to the surface....you can "feel it"..or "sense it"....as I commented recently....."so thick...you can cut it with a knife"...if it were a "tangible thing"...you could actually "cut through with a knife?".

Melissa commented saying this  "

"People with ADD can over-react to things - they can be easily stimulated...or...sometimes people with ADD like the intense simulation of fighting and look for fights to get into in order to be stimulated...or...sometimes people with ADD express their anger more readily than others because they have poor impulse control.  Or, there might be something else going on.  Make sure your hubby is with a person who is a real ADD specialist, not just a generalist, so that he has the highest chance of getting to the bottom of perhaps intertwined things that are going on with him.

Anger can also be a reflex that has to do with shame, which is something that people with ADD often struggle with.  See "How to Improve Your Marriage Without Talking ABout It" for more on this topic.

Sometimes it's hard to pull apart the "tangle" of symptoms and figure out exactly how to treat them.  But keep trying, because it's important to you, as well as him, and ultimately will make a huge difference in your relationship.  You don't want to be questionning him AND you (which is already starting to happen)."

"........Sometimes it's hard to pull apart the "tangle" of symptoms and figure out exactly how to treat them..........."

I always have to answer this question for myself?  How do I treat this feeling I have?  What to do with it and how can I change my own mind ( or feeling ) to something else if it's causing me to react negatively or becoming "negative" myself.  Negativity is not a bad thing only in that it does serve a purpose.  At the same time....your "feelings" are not there to cause you be miserable, to be angry all the time, and be a "negative person" in a general sense or as a chronic "state of mind?".  Add those things up and what you've got is "unhappiness" in the aggregate sense of all those things coming together...and no one likes being around an "unhappy person" 24 / 7......including me, you and everyone else on the planet?  Call it what you like...but what I call it is "energy."  It radiates outwardly from within you just like NowOrNever is saying.   EXACTLY!!!

If there is one job, task , duty or responsibility I owe to myself and to my partner ( or anyone for that matter )....it's to be a happy person but saying....I owe that to everyone else as much as I owe it to myself for EXACTLY.....that reason.  The energy you put out there...will be the "energy" that gets mirrored back to you no matter who you are with..and if no matter where you go and who you are with....you're "energy"...goes with you and that's what you put out to others and what they will mirror back to you no matter where you go?  To the degree that ( which I'm not telling you or anyone else anything new )....if you go to work each day with a frown on your face, you snap at your co-workers and are just a "grouch" or "negative person" everyday at work because you hate your job....first off....no one will enjoy working with you much, you probably won't be considered for advancement or first pick to work with others, and likely no matter how well you do the work you do....eventually you might even get fired....all because of that "negative energy" that no one wants to be around?  NO ONE....including "you" ( saying as "One might do" as in everyone ).  This is what comes across as so hypocritical to others and I'm no different?  No one is NOT going to feel a bit resentful...if their co-worker comes in everyday with yet...another "problem", a sour attitude or is angry all the time ( or right on the edge? )...yet, they're in the same boat as anyone else including you...and have got to put their best foot forward with a smile on there face for everyone concerned... despite having their own personal problems:  their dog just died and somebody put a big dent in their car door when parked outside at the grocery store as  just to name a couple of all the possibilities?  It's one thing to walk in and say these things just happened.....but now 6 hours later and you are still in this "state"....the ability to "care" on that level..and for them to have to put up with your inability to move past those things and not put that energy out there.....all day long despite those things that just happened that morning for example....will start wearing really "thin" and people are going to get tired of being around it?  They've got their own personal problems to deal with and they.....;have got to get past it and not make their problems..."everyone else's "  because that would be a "discourtesy" and a "disrespect"  to others who got to do the same thing in the face of their own "troubling thoughts" and "difficult feelings" and not extend that outwardly onto everyone else all the time with no ability to "hide it" or not let it show?  I don't  even need to explain this to anyone....because everyone knows what this is like to be around someone like this yourself?  And you don't like it.....any more than they do without questioning this for a second....the same as me?

And just hypothetically speaking here........suppose in an unrealistic...but dramatic example....you have a completely "grouchy negative"  "Scrooge" of a character?  No matter where they go....this is what they put out there?  And no matter who they meet....what will get mirrored back to them will be more of the same from everyone else?  That persons perspective and perception of everyone else...is that everyone else are just "bastards" and treat this person disrespectfully and the world is a negative place...full of negative people and no one is happy and everyone is just bitter and resentful?

The problem with that is......everyone else is only like that with "Scrooge"....with literally  "EVERYONE ELSE" except "Scrooge"....they are anywhere from completely different to at the very least....not so negative, judging or resentful with since....they got to do it too...and with others who are "holding their mud" just like them....at least they can recognize the effort, the courtesy and the respect and no one assumes that just because your not showing it....that no one else doesn't have their own problems just like them but at least...everyone else is not "sharing it 24 / 7"...like "Scrooge" is?  In respect to "Scoorge" ( even in the story by Charles Dickens )....he had some bad things happen in his past and was neglected as a child....but is now making that everyone else's problem...and "kicking the dog" no matter where he went and taking that out on everyone else?  He was the epitome...of "sour grapes".  "Bah.....Humbug!!! "  What Scrooge put out there...was exactly what he got in return and when he died.....no one wept and immediately broke into his house to steal the curtain rings off his death bed?  ( in the premonition showed him in the future if he didn't do an about face? )  That was a  complete ..."disrespect" to Scrooge and a complete "discourtesy" to him even after death....but why should they care?  He didn't.....so , "what's good for the Goose..is good for the Gander" as they say?  Se la Vie?

So what is "tangible" here and what is related directly to having ADHD?  Emotional Lability  ( or intense hard to control emotions or rather a lower threshold tolerance or "take off point"...and then the ability to contain or manage your emotions ) along with impulsiveness or a tendency to "jump first"...and "think second" especially "in the moment."  But that doesn't account for "chronic behavior" and being that way all the time with no end?  In the moment yes....but in respect to that....everyone is allowed a Mulligan ( in golf ) on one hole on occasion and most will not only understand but can relate to this themselves.  But no one is going to accept a Mulligan or "slip" on all 18 holes in every game, all the time!!! LOL  And if that's what they have come to expect from us ( having ADHD ) then they will be walking on egg shells and afraid of the next emotional Mulligan which at that point...is not going to looked at as if this is what they can expect all the time everyday ( in every 18 holes being played...every time? )  That's not only not a Mulligan anymore....THAT, would be unacceptable?  Wouldn't it?  I'm saying.....unacceptable to you, me and everyone...and no would could argue with that except......it is exactly what a person like this does in defense of it?  Nothing like dumping fuel oil on the fire...on top of it?  Other people are not only going to get tired of this person...but they will lose patience with them especially when they won't admit it and they become angry at the drop of hat..... even if this "offense" is being brought up to them or mentioned? which is not only a natural thing for them to do...but because this is impacting them negatively and have negative effect on them?  You, me...and every one else on the planet;....would at least be in their right to say something when it starts to cause them to "feel" bad...or causes them to feel disrespected which is exactly what it feels like to them? And if I have to explain this to you or anyone else reading this...then there is a bigger problem lurking inside there because none of this is hard to understand or not see in respect to what I'm saying? 

The only problem with any of this at all ( first and foremost )...comes when you don't realize this is what your doing and are in denial of the fact that ....it's not everyone else in the world who is negative,l hostile an on the edge of anger all the time and being disrespectful here even with the reason ( not excuse ) that EL and Impulsiveness provides them as the cause.....it's the person who's doing this and can't see themselves in this scenario....as being the "horse"...instead of the "cart" here...and is in denial of this as yet one more "defense" ..as an excuse to keep doing it because they haven't figured out a way to stop?

As NowOrNever said......"The difference in living at home with an adult who hasn't accepted and taken responsibility for him/herself and one who has is very drastic."   Yes...but what is this difference and what is this marked change that others can see and feel?  It starts at the source and changing where these things are coming from.....from the inside out...not the outside in?  Top down....or bottom up?  The source is fear, shame and insecurity at the core inside you..and these are the things that need to be addressed since those are the source of that energy that is coming from you and seeping out of your pore that everyone can sense and feel whether you say a single word or not?  It is..what makes up...that energy and that energy is what needs to be changed?
 

How?  By resolving those things inside you...and eliminating them from your :"experience" as a daily or as a "chronic state of mind or being"...that how?  That's no ones responsible but your own in that case and it starts by looking at yourself in a more favorable light and eliminating all those ruminating negative thoughts you have about yourself anc learning to Love yourself;f despite what others may think of you?  That right there is the hardest thing you can possibly do in the face of all of this...but it is what needs to be done to correct this issue if that is what the issue really is?  I'm not seeing this as an ADHD issue directly and this is not caused by ADHD in it and by itself?  You have control of this much and you can't blame that on ADHD because as it sits....there is nothing inside a person with ADHD that prevents them from doing this?  This can be changed and changed 100% despite any deficiencies or liabilities that ADHD itself present to a person.  The only thing that needs to be in place to do this...is a willingness and the effort...those two things ( though not easy ) are all you need to do this...along with some help in getting there ie" some behavioral therapy and some education along with any other medication or treatment options available?  This is one thing...a "pill" is not going to cure ( at all!!! ) even if the "pill" might make it easier...it won't fix what's inside in that way at all?

As  Melissa said......"Anger can also be a reflex that has to do with shame, which is something that people with ADD often struggle with."  And as I experience this with my wife which so beyond obvious to me.....I also experience her  compulsive need to defend, deny, deflect, blame, find fault and and throw that right back in your face...any time you even raise an eye brow...let alone mention it which...heaven forbid you do that with her.  What will happen in that case...is she will lash out at you and then punish you for YOR offense!!!  YOUR offense in this case...is not liking it, feeling disrespected by it,. feeling hurt or offended and feeling resentful because she just won't STOP!!!!

That's what you get back from this.  So in essence....you get a person who over reacts to the slightest thing with anger ( instantly ) which is usually directed at you for things that one might see as so minor...that you can't even reconcile or know what she is overacting too in the first place sometimes?  And now you're feeling shocked, hurt, offended, disrespected by this seemingly "boorish" behavior...and then if you even dare mention that you feel any of these things at all.....she blame you for making her be that way and it's all your fault and will deny any culpability what so ever...and now punish YOU for "YOUR OFFENSE" here?  On top of it?  No apologies...no acknowledgment...no nothing that would even say ..."YES...I know I do this and I'm sorry" in a genuine way?  Not even once has she ever said that but that would be at least...as "real and honest response?" instead of....."it's because of you I just did that "..and then proceed to "punish you" by "chastising you"...so you won't do that again?  It's insane....and it makes her look like she is completely mentally retarded.  Sorry ...I know that's not PC...but my wife is not retarded and that is not the problem? That much...I'm sure of which was actually confirmed by our T when I made that mention in jest once and he assured me....that this was not my wife's issue either?  Cognitively ..on a functioning level...she is just as smart or smarter than the average so "smart" or "intelligence" has absolutely nothing to do with it?

How can I say such a thing and use those "judgments" like "insane"..or "mentally retarded"...LOOKING?  Because I'm the one with ADHD too here...but I absolutely know that I am neither one of those things and.....I can see this for exactly what it is and I know what it is....both in my wife....and in myself because I can see it and see the entire picture clearly which is both great and wonderful on my end...and extremely exasperating ( even more so at times ) when I see the same thing in my wife...but also experience it first hand with what she does with it which is NOT what I do with it which is why I am not expereincing any of these things within myself anymore....but now have to deal with the same thing coming from someone else and this is where I love patients sometimes?  She might get away with confusing other people with her excuses and defenses...but she's not confusing me and she not getting away with it with me?  That would be like preaching to the choir...and trying to convince a Dog...that he's a Cat?  I'm not buying it for a second....because I've been there and back myself and can now see all of this clearly...with that work and effort I was talking about?  I know where to put any fault or blaming things into their proper place and I know what is mine..amd what is hers and she's not going to convince me. berates me, chastise me, or anger over me...in a way of getting me not to see it because there is just no way when your talking to someone who's got the things to deal with...but is clearly...JUST NOT DEALING WITH IT....as her only excuse which is a really poor one...and disrespectful to my intelligence at the very minimum by doing so even if she can]t see it or can't help it...as she might think she can't.  That's the only problem as I see it...."thinking she can't"...and being negative.

And the way to not be negative...is being able to see the whole story and the big picture.  Being so narrow in scope and narrow in focus and only seeing what is wrong..is the first thing that needs to change IMHO?

Jon...this is what struck me as I read through what you said?  I hope I'm not coming across like I'm telling you anything you don't already know  which I do get that you and I feel the same way about most of these things which I agree and get the sense that you see these things too as well as I can?  But I've found that I have a developed ( in a good way )...as kind of chronic habit unto itself..and that's seeing the positive side of things as my chronic state of mind?  This has it's down sides too if taken too far without seeing the others side of thins  ( putting a bow on everything and being a Pollyana despite my venting here on this forum which sometimes is my only outlet because of exactly what I just described? ) BUT..........

What immediately crossed my mind when I read what you said was of all things....Sir Isaac Newton?  I watched an interesting biographical documentary on him and his life and work..and it supposed that he had ADHD which at this point in time.....I share no doubt in my mind what so ever with those who've had this notion? LOL  He was one "Weird Cat" you might say?  And is there was ever a case to made for obsessive thinking and ruminating thoughts plus hyper focus.....there is not a better example that can think of?  Since he couldn't figure out how to solve all these math problems he kept running into ...in trying to prove one of his many theories which must have been driving him bonkers?  He basically locked himself inside his own room for 10 years and came back out when he was done with inventing Calculus?  Not for the sake of Mathematics per se....it was because he needed it to prove something else and went that far with his obsession over this in order to do it?  I think he was a little obesed don't you?

So while...the rest of humanity may praise him for all his glory and everything he discovered including inventing Caluclus ( my God..that makes my brain hurt just thinking about it!! LOL )  I'm wondering how the rest of his family or anyone who knew  him thought about that at the time?  If you think about a person who is so self absorbed and obsessed with their work..that they lock them self in their room for 10 years just so they can prove something else?  I'll  bet...he was not a lot of fun to be around and probably a complete stick in the mud as a person or personality with a host...of personal issues that would be unbearable to live with?  In fact....who would live with that and be happy I might ask?  Like.....NO ONE.....that's the point!!! LOL

When it comes to being a good person to pick as a husband friends or someone you'd want to "hang out with".....I'm thinking 'Sir Isaac Newton was probably a "dud" in that department...despite...being an absolute Genius!!!

And that's the point of sharing that with you....it's my chronic way of seeing both sides of the picture...the good and the bad..;and stepping back and imagining my self and what that might be like for others...to live with me and everything that goes with it.  And when I say everything....I mean....everything!!! LOL

 

J

Now......A Question? A Sincere One?

I'm not questioning you and your beliefs here but I have an honest question?  My intention or need here...is for your honest perception or perspective which is different than mine?  The reason?  Because it's different...that I want a different or new perspective than my own to think about and ponder over.  Really truel honestly....I'm not trying to take on a position and re-establish my own...but to see a new one from a new place with an open mind to think about...that's all?  It has to do directly with this topic of "freedom" and "freedom" from feeling guilt...for expressing yourself?

You don't need to give me the Christian definition here either....I know that one like the back of my own hand.  I think...there is very little anyone could "teach me" about the Bible that I haven't heard before and now extremely well.  More in how you feel about it from your own perspective because of that hesitation and you feeling the need to excuse yourself from possibly taking the Lords name in vain?  This is where I get so confused and there seems to be so much misunderstanding and I seem to "not get it" more often than not?

At least my understanding comes not from the "letter of the law"...but from the heart of the matter and what the intention was from it's origin...not the common usage or everyday vernacular?  As I was taught....that taking the Lords name in vain meant....."to cast am evil curse...or to cast an evil spell ( as was believed in the days of old ) on another person...and using the Lords name in vain by calling upon God....to Damn that person to Hell?  The intention was to wish the wrath of God to damn that person or thing to Hell....and curse them with that spell in a self righteous ( taking the higher position as if you are favored by God to think he would just do that for you ( in vain ).... or in a self serving way because they offended you or went against you or you were just angry with them?

At least that was the interpretation I got?  So when someone says...Oh My God...as an exclamation!!!! ( of disbelieve)...or says  God Damn It...out of frustration....they are nether cursing anyone to Hell and wishing Gods wrath upon this person or thing....but using it as a commonly understood expression which means exactly what it means?  In other words....if I say God Damn It....it means I'm frustrated and wanting, wishing or desiring to cast an evil spell or "curse" on that person or thing with the intention of calling on God to do that for me....is not only not in my heart or even on my radar screen....it's not my intention......as ALL?  In context....the "letter of the Law" is actually being taken out of context...literally...and said to say the WORD  "GOD"....in it and by itself....means, you are taking the Lords name in vain but that's not my understanding of either the intention...or ...the Letter of the Law?  I'm never "crusing that person to Hell" or wishing that upon them and I'm not....by any means....calling upon God to do that even if I thought that was possible which I don't...but that's beside the point?  The point is.....where it comes from in your heart...and the context and what is your intention by saying it.  Saying a "word".....in it and by itself...with nothing behind it or meaning there.....means.....you aren't doing it ( taking the Lords name in vain ) by exactly what the message...or..."the word" as in....."the word"...not words out of a dictionary...which would be the equivalent to saying Oh.....My......God.  Three words isolated and grouped together to express disbelief?  And everyone understand it as such?  I doubt very much that when a person says God Damn It ...to me in frustration....that they are trying to "curse me to Hell by having God damn me for what ever they are frustrated about it?  The test I guess...is what is commonly understood...and the intention behind it?  From the heart....not the dictionary?

So if that's the case.....is saying the word God in a sentence or speaking of him in that way....."trying to cast an evil curse on somebody...and eliciting Gods help to do it? ( in vain? )  I don't even think this is unrelated to this "muzzling" thing my wife does when she blurts into my sentence before I even finishes it...because as it appears to me is that she's latched onto "ONE WORD" that caused some big upheaval in her mind and she's not even listening to another word I said anymore?  Honestly.  I just brought this up with my T and said exactly those words to him and what he said was..."Well....you be surprised how common that is and to a certain degree we all do it...but specifically....people hearing just one word of a sentence and then nothing else matters and they get hijacked by "ONE WORD"...and stop hearing anything else?  Especially if that one word....means something specific or is associated to something else...and they can't get past it which totally disables them and makes it so they can't hear anything else anymore after that?"

In my troubled and frustrated way of seeing this ( the part I just don't get at all?  )  One word looked up in the dictionary....can mean so many things and then synonyms and antonyms and alternative usages and meanings....that how you can get from   here....to there....sometimes...has me reeling there are so many possibilities?  How one word...taken out of context...can be so devastating is beyond me?

I never think that a person is trying to cast an evil spell on me and curse me to Hell and trying to get God to do it...when they say  Dear Lord......or.....Oh My God.....or.......even God Damn It!!!  Ever?

What I hear is.......disbelief!!!! ( an exclamation )...............Please!!!! ( as in disgust )........and  I'm really really frustrated!!!!! ( in exasperation and frustration ? )....not that they are calling on God to put a curse on them and damn them to Hell?

In essense.....you are free from any guilt as far as I see it..;..;and you don't need to even mention it...because your not doing it and that is clear to me? And if I day God Damn It!!!  over something.;...I'm not doing it either because the intention, the meaning and the "word" is not in context and is not being used in that case?

If I truely felt that I wanted to condemn someone to Hell for eternity..and I wanted God to do that to that person in my heart and calling on him to do it....then I would be taking the Lords name in vain.;...but not otherwise which is never the case when I say the word God...in common venacular...or even in a sentence?  As I was taught what that meant and applying it to what is in my heart which was the only criteria being used in context to the Bible?  The problem with the wording in the Bible is that it speaks in absolutes:  YOU MUST.....YOU WILL......YOU ARE......NEVER....ALWAYS....FOR ETERNITY!!!!!   Which in my mind...just confuses the issue and makes it hard to understand to get to the real meaning?  I figure it was due to the audience at the time...and their ability to comprehend but poorly worded and using inflammatory "weasel words" and "trigger words"......to get peoples attention which only diverted from the real meaning...as in "the word"...itself?

I can't see any other perspective or way to perceive this?  I normally...am use to the "party line" as amy answers ( generally speaking? ) which normally pisses me off because that's never what I',m asking for?  What I'm asking you for...is how YOU really feel about this personally and what I want to know...is your perspective and your perception that knowingly...is different from my own?  Not to argue or refute you or re-establish my own position...but because I want another view or perspective and one I don't have in an honest way from the heart?

Getting another lesson on the Bible...is the last thing I need!!! LOL  ( I heard it all before...and I have my own feelings? )  I guess what why I'm asking...is within the realms of "freedom" and "freedom from guilt...when there is no guilt or fault and no one to blame especially...when the meaning and intention...is just not there?  I hope that makes sense in why I'm asking because I have not found a way around this for myself...because no one normally says what they really think or believe...and just give you the usual rhetoric right out of the book?  I can look up in the dictionary the meaning of a single word and all the possibilities?  What I can't understand is how something means one things to one person...;and something completely differently to another with no explanation as to why and yet......they refuse to tell you and just get angry at you?

I can read and comprehend as well as the next person....and I can get meaning beyond the words being used...that tell me really what that person is trying to say in context.....not the letter of the law?  That's a good analogy right there....the "Letter"...as in "one letter of a word".....in contrast to...one word in a sentence....taken completely out of context and somehow..that means something...without the rest of it being spoken or said?  I don't get it...but that's par for the course for me?  I'm, really being honest here too....I really don't get it but I hope I explained at least why that is for me?

 

J

: ) Welcome to my dojo mat

More in how you feel about it from your own perspective because of that hesitation and you feeling the need to excuse yourself from possibly taking the Lords name in vain?  This is where I get so confused and there seems to be so much misunderstanding and I seem to "not get it" more often than not?

J, about religion, there are as many variations on understanding it , and variations in practices of it as there are colors of the rainbow. 

The best I can do is tell you what I did with my words, as I wrote.   I did it as a Christian.   Not as all Christians, or as the Christians you have in mind.  As me.  And thank you, by the way, for the friendship in your inquiry.  I do know from what you wrote that you do trust my answering you is my plain truth.  

First of all, perhaps it will help you get a personal fix on me to know that I was excusing nothing and feeling guilty about nothing.   I was declaring that I was was thanking God.  That I was REALLY thanking God, when I said "thank God."    Here's the short short of it:  if I can feel wonder and gratitude, as well as desire for relationship with and a knowledge that I am responsible for not being shallow and self centered in my actions in relation with plants....and I do, I certainly do....and be grateful TO the plants for their extraordinary gifts of food and shelter...and I do....and if I can wonder over and be grateful to animals like your two dogs you have in your home, but also animals less woven in to my attention and life, and I do....I have a years long thing going on with a pair of cardinals who have lived in my yard.....if I can be grateful to human beings, and know myself in relation with them, and know that they have an astonishing effect on me with their peculiarities and mysteries, as well as their gifts to me....it's as easy as pie to me to also be grateful to God.    So to get toward my mindset as I said "I thank God, and I'm not taking the Lord's name in vain....which for me, not all that you said, but it means using God's name as I do in relation to Him, not in relation to ordinary life....I'd suggest that you take me literally:  I do thank God.   That's it.  No guilt.   Far from it, if you take a look at what I was writing.  I was thanking God to be with a wonderful man.   What a great intersection in life, that I am with him now, and I hope we have more years together.  

:) 

Thanks for asking.  You know, once again, writing on the internet doesn't give the flavor of things.  

Best to you.  

I also thank God for you.  So there.

 

Thank You......For Your Honesty, I Appreciate It

Ha! ( lol )  I can't tell you how refreshing that was to hear?  Just the fact that I asked and you actually answered me and told me exactly what I wanted to hear....on an honest answer and not something I had heard before since it was yours and it was genuine and it didn't come from a recipe book or some patent answer?  And here's the deal with taking you literally?  My interpretation as I explained...was what was taught.  That was my literal interpretation...as I just regurgitated it back to you...as I was taught?  Repeat after me....."I will not take the Lords name in Vain"....Now write that 100 times on the black board Mr J....and then you'll get a cookie .  And why is that Mr J.....because it says so...that's why and if you don't do exactly as it says.....you know where you will go don't you?  ha!  ( I'm being factitious of course but I think you get my point? )

No one ever says exactly what it means to them and I have never heard that one before in my entire life?  Not once.  It's why I asked and why I don't always get it?  It's because ( as it seems to me ) that there are so many different versions of Christianity and it's remarkable how so many people who never seem to agree on anything....;can ALL be right, and at the same time.;...all be wrong? LOL

I like your version though.....it gives me a new one to think about?  Thank you :)

 

J

PS  It was also very nice to hear something real from the heart....instead of the Glengary Glen Ross version I'm so use to hearing?   You know....."Always be selling....always be closing "....you know the one? :) ( that one hurts my head?  Like listening to Donald Trump!! LOL  I'd actually rather listen to the "Sham Wow" guy...at least he's entertaining??? lol )

Yep

I agree, words can be used to flim-flam others, all right.

More God chat: a few reasons that there's so much variety in religious teaching and practice are that histories are very long (for ex Christianity, Hinduism and Judaism have been going for millenia), their followers live in all kinds of cultural situations, and scriptual and other teaching collections are vast and varied.  Take a look at the Hindu list of scriptures, for instance.  Wowie.

There's a teaching that you didnt mention, that God's name belongs to Him, like your name belongs to you.  My take is that I use God's name in relating to God, just as I use J when talking with you online, or talking with other people on the site about something valuable to me that you wrote in another post.  I use your name to give you due credit and appreciation.   Lol, I dont use your name when I drop something heavy on my foot ("J damn it, that hurt!").   

 

Speaking of Dojo Mats....and Turning the Tables?

I was reminded by what you are saying....that my perception is skewed, because my teacher was skewed!!! LOL  That does seem to be the way it works?  I have always been open minded about religion even if my teacher wasn't and that has more to do with anything else I think?  Either you go with..or you go against.....and going against is not always a bad thing as I have found?

Speaking of......last night something happened that happened in the moment that I think is worth sharing?  This idea of "pushing back" and how to do it effectively and not get hijacked yourself?  I'm really, really started to see the patterns here too?  When you've got a totalitarian parent who is very domineering and controlling...you;'ve got one of two options....go against ( ODD )...or go with which in my wife's case, she had no other options?  But a person like her mother, who's goals revolved around "dependence" on her to compensate for her own lack of power and to coheres you into "needing me"...if that's the goal.....then that's what you learn.  Power by manipulation....and control by making a person dependent on you for your own gains?  This would be the woman hypothetically...who punctures a hole in the condom to "trap" the man into marrying her by getting pregnant?  I would not have put it past her which is just so unacceptable I have a difficult time seeing any redeeming qualities or feeling very compassionate here...again?  This is coming from someone who is a true victim and feels powerless in controlling their life....without gaining power over others in underhanded ways?  In respect to my wife....this was her teacher even though the difference between them is that my wife is honorable to a certain degree but this behavior that she does cause me  to take a second look and check my rear view mirror if that makes sense?

Ironically.....I think of my dad the Narc and how that translate here?  The one thing my father was not....was insecure or powerless?  He knew exactly what he was doing..and he did everything with intention albeit...misguided in a sense?  But there was no sniveling and whining and no underhanded back stabbing manipulation involved.  He was right up front and in your face...and he wielded his power...better than the next guy but you always knew what he was thinking and he made no bones about letting you know?  When you walked onto his dojo mat  ( or the Bull ring )....the  Bull....was staring you down right in front of you and either you ran for your life...or you learned to Bull fight!!!  You had no other choice?  It was manipulation by intimidation and he was the most intimidating presence you could ever meet.  In your face whether you liked it or not and fear / intimidation was what he was all about?  I don't care how big or how small you were....you were never going to win against my father because he was always one step ahead of everyone, all the time, 24 / 7......he wins...you lose..so don;t even try it or you'll be sorry...right?  And he only became physical with me I truly believe....in that he was not in complete loss of control and a "physical beater" of a guy.  Hardly.  I ended up taller, stronger and bigger than he was in that respect and that never stopped him but he stopped the beating once I got to a certain age?  With him...everything was calculated and he was very much in control even with anger...he picked and choosed his timing and his timing and how he used it was impeccable and always dead on in the Bulls eye. 

But....he had a sense of a "duty" and "honor" that transcended the petty, tit for tat , emotional squabbling over "hurt feelings" or as he saw it....weakness.  That..and how can I say this....."lower echelon trivial pursuits" if I were to put a label on his motivations and what he felt was important?  If was his way..or the highway...but with no pussy footing around.  He knew exactly what he wanted at all times and there was no such thing as ambivalence anywhere in his repertoire!  Always in total control of himself at all times ...and always decisive even with his anger which he used as a tool or weapon...but only when needed?  He had control of that too......no emotional liability there....let me tell you!!  If you were going to assassinated ( metaphorically speaking )....the knife would  be in your back and twisted...without you even knowing about it?  If you came to a fist fight with a knife...he pull out a gun.  If you pulled out a gun...he would pull out a howitzer cannon....and if you pulled out a howitzer cannon....he would pull out a tactical nuclear weapon and raise the entire building with you in it.  That's the way he operated and he had an uncanny ability to read any situation and to read people ( with surgical precision ) like X-ray vision that could look into your soul?

What I just described...I think is a good profile of the genuine article ie:  Narcissist with Anti Social tendencies and with that...there was seemingly no denial or even any shame what so ever that might get in the way as in those pesky emotions and feelings which were only a sign of weakness?

This is why what looks like a Narc with someone who has ADHD or any other related disorder where "selfish appearances" thinking this is Narcissism is really deceiving I think?  Manipulation was done to a level in such way that you didn't even know you were being manipulated...and stooping to such disgraceful tactics ( as putting a hole in a condom to trap a husband ) would not only be frowned upon as cowardly and a sign of weakness....but would be "child's play" in the hands of "the master" as it was.......  in that respect to this code honor honor amongst thieves in a sense.... and underhanded, back stabbing in the traditional sense was beneath him....truly.  That like I said...would be viewed as "lower echelon" form of petty manipulation that would not even raise an eyebrow or cause him to even react.  He would take care of that in a hurry and that would never happen again if he were on the other side of a person doing that.  You would be Nuked....before you could say  "What just happened to me?
 

I guess what I'm saying is that there is skill involved there that is an art form of sorts and it takes a special person to pull that off without batting an eye lash?  It's the thing I could never do...because hurting others needs to not be a consideration...at all!!! 

That's the point with a true bona-ifide Narcissist ( unlike the behavior that gets reported here on this forum many times incorrectly associated to other things that appear "selfish" or without empathy?  This thing is....my father did a pretty good job of convincing you he was empathetic as well but you would have had to seen him on daily basis to spot the holes there which were few and far between and difficult to spot?  He has a air tight ability that was so seamless and unnoticeable...that I think you'd have to live with it long enough...to actually finally see the Narcissism showing.... because he was so damn good at doing what he did?   The ends always justify the means even if they are Law Abiding citizens who are not criminal in their intentions?  Power is the operant word..;.not..."powerless" or "victim" by any stretch here?  The one thing that my father made sure of in any situation no matter what?  Never be a victim to anyone..and always come out on top....all the time....24 / 7 every minute of every hour and in complete control who knew what he wanted and was never sitting on the fence for more than a second when it came to decision making and :"thinking on your feet".  You can also include "street smart" into that scenario because if "street smart" was the goal...then my father was a genius?  A genius with X=Ray vision that could see right through anyone in a split second.  It was like a 6th sense that was uncanny...;.that's all I can say?

So in a moment of brilliance...or possibly me just not giving a damn and being fed up....I had a moment where I remembered my father and with intention but not too much fore thought ( lol  ADHD remember? )   I stumbled on something that I can equate with my fathers skill level in confronting conflict which seemingly worked  very well but saying...with an assertiveness that is not the norm for me except on rare occasions?  Being able to do it with that much control and no losing my temper is difficult ....but I finding I can do it better with a little practice?

The Dojo Mat in last nights scenario...was the stereo typical in that...I was literally doing nothing but sitting there...and my wife starts to make her usual attempts to create a conflict....where there is none?  I started to step into it with here and take the bait..but this time I didn't lose my cool...it just made me really angry that I recognized exactly what she was doing and this time...I got mad first!  And the second I got mad...the usual came from my wife....accusations, projection, throwing it back in your face and saying that "it's you who's the problem.  I am both....so tired of this song and dance and it;s so predictable now....that I had just had enough I guess...and I just yelled over her non stop chastising and said...." Why am I angry???"  Why?  Answer me...it's not rhetorical.  Why...Why am I mad?  What reason do I have to be angry?  Why?  Answer me...what are you hiding? Answer the question.  Why!!!???"

You know...you mentioned timing before...and in considering this and timing in the moment...not in the time of day.....timing there is important which is part of this skill I was talking about that my father had?  It's like a rhythm or stream you jump into and if you time it just right...you merge into traffic seamlessly and find that hole?  My wife...for once...was at a loss for words for just a moment and didn't have her usual come backs which are so predictable?  And once I saw daylight....I started hammering on that connection...repeatedly ..over and over until she became silent?

"Why am I angry??  What cause me to be mad?  Why am I angry?  What caused this when I was not only moments before.  Why?  Why D...Why am I angry????"  Amd I just drove that point home until I had hammer that spike right down to the head.  And when she became silent ( that was completely different? )...I walked away without saying a word and left her there and didn't talk to her again for the rest of the evening?

The remarkable and surprising results or this happened first thing this morning? ( which is why I think this is worth mentioning here )  My wife comes to me before she left for work...;and actually thanked ME...for stopping?????  Like WTF??? I didn't stop...she did but I was the one who actually hammered that question so hard and repeatedly that she had no where to go...and so she stopped?

This is so counter intuitive???  I was the one who got angry first...and I was the one who wouldn't let up or stop?  But she stopped and then thanked me later...for being the one who stopped???  In respect to what I was saying about my father where he could make you believe that you did something...but he was the one who made that happen?  Yikes!!  This is both something to think about...and yet on one level it doesn't sound all that great to be copying my fathers lead here...but at the same time...I did it without losing my cool and did it so well that she Thanked me for it?????

I can tell you one thing I was aware of that did make the difference?  When nothing you do works and nothing else seems to matter....the level of caring whether the other person likes it or not...goes down and with it...your own anger to it?  If you've got nothing left to lose...then what's the loss either way?  But apparently....this registered and that's really all I wanted in the first place but seemingly having to do it by force???  Not out of desperation and with high emotion...but with a cool head and a conviction that says...."you mean business"...in no uncertain terms.

All I can say is that it worked and instead of my wife coming and saying she is going to leave....she came and thanked me????? Go figure???  At the very least....it's not an apology but at the same time....being thanked is better than a poke in the eye with a blunt stick??? LOL

 

J

Surprise

Sounds like you changed the pattern between the two of you, in a couple particulars.  You said different things, this time.  And then you broke the interaction off, before it got into a round and round.  Your walking away made it impossible for there to be a dragged out fight.   Both of those things you chose and initiated, J.  You escalated at first, in a way that sounds  like it surprised her.  And then de escalated the whole thing by walking away, and giving you both time to cool off and have to live with your thoughts about it all.  Your silence did that latter...give her, but also you, time to climb down.   I really like it that you stopped the interaction before it got worse for you both.  Being silent and walking away isnt necessarily always the way to get an interaction that's liable to end in hurt not to play through and produce that hurt.  But they worked for you J

I am really, really cautious about saying what your wife is doing, or thinking.  She's not here online to tell us that.  I did wonder though, as I read your account, whether she needed your help in handling the argument breaking out, and was thanking you for ending the argument before it got worse...because in the moment she didnt know how to make things better herself.   Now dont take and apply that to her, she's the one to speak for her heart.  I just had the thought as I read your description.

OK the aikido thing.  J, bud.  I am not very good at this yet myself, but the martial arts thing is that you choose what you're going to engage with, and let the rest go on by.  Cant react with everything that happens.  It takes a lot of being coolheaded to do that when someone is coming at you like a kamikaze, and there's that lability from ADHD you have.  In  my case, old triggers, which are still there, in my old layers of personality, fire off that something dangerous could come at me at any time.  So you and I have our work to do to stay in that space you were in, what did you say, didnt give a damn?, with enough attention and detachment to choose not to do the same old painful pattern, to do something else.

Thinking about you, J.  Good for you that you made a 90 degree turn and ended it

Thanks For the Feedback NON

Boy ...this is extremely difficult to manage.  It seems though, that she gets one tiny step closer each time but yet....there is no getting around her pattern.  And I have to keep in mind...that I am really having two conversations when I write here.  I don't always say it...but a lot of things that are unsaid here are being talked about with my T.  Since she isn't going for the time being...I'm getting that one on one again with him and we cover a lot of ground together since we have such a long history.  There's not a lot of figuring things out as much as him getting right to the point and me just filling in the blanks a little.  I've got to find a way to talk to her and tell her what I know up to a point since a ( as you know )...there is something wrong on her end..and she's not even officially diagnosed yet and looking like she's not likely to go herself unless something gives her a shove?  Even that's no guarantee which is both frustrating when you actually know a ( from the source ie: T ) but can;t say anything?  It's like a secret...that's not a secret...but you're not "allowed" to talk about it?  There definitely is an element of : entitlement, permission, allowing. and self righteousness in there...that all adds up to "control" and "power"...or better...lack of on her end and on my end...it's the "aggressive" nature and the pushing and shoving which is like the parent child on steroid!! LOL  Actually we have trade off in that department but I am doing my hardestt not to be her parent even though...it's almost like she is actually trying to get me to be and wants that from me?  I really don't understand why patronizing doesn't offend her...yet treating her like and adult sometimes and NOT talking down to her actually does?  Actually....it's both which makes it impossible sometimes??

I had a successful moment where she started in and I stopped her and went through the two scenarios that she was complaining about which meant....if you're not suppose to talk down to her and treat her like an adult when I speak....and she doesn't like that....but when I talk to her like an adult and don't talk down to her...she doesn't like that either?  The other day when she allowed me to run her through both scenarios and showed her how what she wants is completely incompatible...she didn't get upset and actually allowed that?

What was really frustrating about last night was that I was actually giving her a compliment and  being supportive...and she appears not to know the difference and thought what I was saying didn't sound good as she said.  I said it again differently and she still couldn't hear it?  This baffles me to no end?  You can't even be nice to her and pay her a compliment...unless it's about her eyes or hair on something "on her body"????

If I say...."you really did well in that moment ( what ever ) by doing what you did and I'm impressed".....she will still turn that into me criticizing her or she can't hear the compliment even when I give them to her.  Unless I say...."your hair looks nice"....not much else gets through?

Part of last night leading up to that moment...was yet another ( one of 100's ) where she will be talking and I try and ask her a  question to show interest or for clarification?  I found...I can't even ask a question for any reason...without her taking offense in some way?  When I try in any back of forth exchange...she's get upset or basically ignore me?

That was part of what lead up to me insisting that she answer my question.  She rarely does willing and for the most part...just ignores me when I ask or says nothing at all in response.  That one I've gotten use to even though it's still completely disrespectful to sit there and say nothing while it's clear she hears me but won't respond?

J

 

In the thick of it

Hi, J

I've read this last post of yours several times.  I'm glad that you're having sessions with your T right now.  That's really good.

If I were going through what you describe, my instincts, like yours, would be to stay away from parent-child, as well.  Especially if she had trouble with a parent or parents when she was a kid.  

I wondered about the usual or frequent pattern of how things start between you two.  How many times is it that you're minding your business or doing something else, or doing what to you is neutral or positive, and she takes it negative and kicks it up a notch? This is material for you and your T, but if that's going on sometimes or often, that's a tough problem for you to solve, right at the front door of the argument.  Because it involves your own mental and social boundaries.  I'm just asking.  It seems to me that the pattern of the fight is at least as important to deal with as the content. You can affect the pattern. You are, it sounds like.     It is always upsetting to me when I'm in a peaceable mood and find myself tugged into conflict.  

I want to talk about reasonability during a fight.  I generally think its impossible for people to be reasonable as they fight.  Unless they're practiced as a couple in deescalating down to a level of communication that's not attack, defense.  

My mother and father were the worst fighters I've ever run across in life so far, they fought meanly and childishly.  It's really terrible thing to be present as two highly intelligent, highly verbal adults fight to wound.  I now think that they showed a lot of evidence of being very emotionally immature, but as a kid I didn't have the life knowledge to understand that they were fighting like mean toddlers.   Neither one of them took responsibility for the impact of their words.  My father didnt give a damn what he said.  That was one of his signature social moves in all situations.  It would fly out of his mouth without any concern for who was getting it or where.  He fought like a 2 or 3 year old.  My mother was a borderline narcissist.  They both fought to wound.  My mother fought to wound and kill the soul of the person she attacked.  She was terrifying.    ....and in all that...all of that daily fighting, 50 years of it, until my father died in his 90s, and my mother was left with no one to fight because she had obsessively locked on to him as the one to fight, my mother used to say this hallucination over and over again that my father wasnt being rational.... that was her declared take.... my father wasnt being rational as he fought....so there was something wrong with him, which meant that she, because someone else in her mind was deficient, was not deficient and justified in what she said and did during the fight.

There are a lot of issues going on there, or I think there were.  But just the piece about reasonability itself. When emotions are high, or when one's partner is in no mood or in any other way is not in the moment willing or able to listen is not the time to speak to their analytic or self observing mind.   By bringing up my parents, I'm not at all wanting to suggest that they fought like either you and your wife or I and my husband fight.  Its just that I and the other kids in the family had a terrible ringside seat on their daily psychically violent fighting.   

If there were ever two human beings on this planet who had the mental firepower to be able to reason, my parents had it.  But they had zero wish to argue rationally, deal with things rationally during a fight, make sense, deescalate, or for that matter, take care of the wellbeing of each other.  They fought all the way to the wall.  Every day Their fights werent rational. Believe me, I was there, the kids were there, for the whole of their fights.  They were fighting to win, not to make sense.    And they had NO desire or skill in reconciliation.  

So my mother's concern with my father's not dealing reasonably with issues, and I do think, she being as smart as she was, she was recognising, though she seemed to have no ability to view her own tactics, was way, way off base.   Lessons are not taught during a fight. In fact, it's a slide into authoritarianism or being the parent to try to teach a lesson during a fight.    The fights I've seen or been in are most definitely not a debate, which has rules about evidence, and the proper use of logic that both people accept and use.   Between my parents, the claim that one or the other of them was being irrational was a red herring, a cover for something else.  Neither one of them were being reasonable.  They were fighting.  My father's counterpunch by the way was that my mother was a crazy Nazi. 

J I'm so glad that you're having sessions with your therapist nowadays, a wise man who knows you.  That's the place for the work on it all.  As you say.  It certainly does sound like from what you write, that as this point your wife is shrinking back in all kinds of ways from dealing with her own unhappinesses.   I think what I most think about, reading your latest posts, is your wellbeing in that current life situation of her unhappiness coming out often.   I've had some emotional flashbacks reading your posts to being a child living in a daily situation of two unhappy adults fighting daily in the home, as a kid wanting and trying to do anything I could to lower the conflict and anger, to fix their problems, to just make the fighting end. I wonder if you're trying to fix something during your fights as well.  Just asking.  

 J, I think about that lability of yours.  My husband has to recover if anything shocking or worse occurs to him. He needs standing down and reset time.   I do too, all people do, but if in addition to the event, my husband is flamed by that lability of his, he really has to recuperate after.  It does look to me like it takes  him more hours to do a reset and to take up his life again after a big lability flood than it does me.  Take care of yourself, your boundaries and what you need to be well.  I care about you.  One thing about tactically standing down, when you choose to do it, is that you decide that you're not going to be cannon fodder for someone else's anger.   I know you and your T are dealing with things.  Just take care of you, Ok

Now

Hi Now.....Not being able to reset....

(My husband has to recover if anything shocking or worse occurs to him. He needs standing down and reset time.   I do too, all people do, but if in addition to the event, my husband is flamed by that lability of his, he really has to recuperate after.  It does look to me like it takes  him more hours to do a reset and to take up his life again after a big lability flood than it does me.)

Now; you brought something to mind that I think is probably more common than many of us realize (not sure if adhd plays a role or if its just baggage). The inability to reset and move on from negative interactions....How many finds that their spouse can't move on unless they feel like they have gotten even?

One, two, three days or more can go by and unless these type minds feel they have gotten even, there can be no closure on what shouldn't have ever occurred in the first place....I think it may partly lend to someone who lives in denial...Who must blame others and also rationalize their own innocence in every conflict...(No humility, and no ability to accept their human frailties) When a mind is unable to see their roles (sort of like you said your Mom was doing) in conflict, accept it, own it, repent and move on with a little more wisdom, then there is no healing, and it will always be open ended for them...(No closure and a way of life)....

To me; the only way to positively effect this is to first make sure it's not you/me, (awareness). Secondly, once you've given a sincere apology for what ever your role was in the conflict, never engage it again...I don't mean don't listen to your spouse when they finally feel the liberty to discuss it...But if all you are hearing is a victim, (blame, and self-justification, instead of repentance) do not enable that by groveling until they are content...

But for that to happen, you will have to want awareness for your spouse more than any expectation you have for them....You will have to love peace more than any thing they have to do get over their blindness....Even if it means you help them pack....If you want it to end that is....

C

Resets

C, thanks for your thoughts about re-sets. like you say, if both dont reset it's harder to carry on after an argument  

How many finds that their spouse can't move on unless they feel like they have gotten even?                

What a good question.  One of my parents (guess which, if you read my earlier description of my parents fighting) was an Ace at nursing a grudge, after a fight.  It would be like lightning bolts potentially flashing out at anyone in the vicinity, including the other combatant.....and then....the resentment at something that the other combatant did or said would go underground, and would stay down there, cooking, building steam.  Heavens to betsy.  That nursing it, and getting even.   

And I'd add to it, the problem of moving on, if one feels that one has been unjustly treated in the argument: lied to, gaslighted, accused unfairly, messed around with wilfully, etc. but is not in the direct business of nursing vengeance.   I think still that there can be a whole lot of time spent on replaying the fact that one was mistreated, instead of resetting.  

We human people.     Being hung up in what happens to me, not what I do to you?   

One, two, three days or more can go by and unless these type minds feel they have gotten even, there can be no closure on what shouldn't have ever occurred in the first place....I think it may partly lend to someone who lives in denial...Who must blame others and also rationalize their own innocence in every conflict...(No humility, and no ability to accept their human frailties) When a mind is unable to see their roles (sort of like you said your Mom was doing) in conflict, accept it, own it, repent and move on with a little more wisdom, then there is no healing, and it will always be open ended for them...(No closure and a way of life)....

I think people have to see themselves as related to other people, to own that what they did had an impact on others. .   You know, you remind me -...Have you ever had a relationship  C, that didn't end with a clear ending?   It could be a positive relation in which there was no  good bye, that's the end forever.  Or a negative relation in which one or both decided that the dynamic in the relation was sufficiently unhealthy that it was better to stop seeing each other?   Either kind.   I dunno, my experience with that is that a year, a decade or even decades can go by, and if there's a reconnection between the two people (again, either positive or negative) the two people start right back up where they left off?   I've had that happen.   That to me somehow says something about your point that if there's no closure to an argument....well then that argument is still, in a way going on, the fight is still alive.  What  a way to live.  

My approach to apologies sounds like it tracks on yours.  Once I've seen what I did wrong, apologized for it, and changed whatever I was doing that was hurtful, that's it.  That's really it.  There is  no need to apologize over and over, nor to grovel.  I agree.   Sometimes it takes some fortitude to apologize for my mistakes in a situation in which I think I was being done wrong to as well, but apologies aren't conditional on other people doing their apologies.  Or that's the way I see it.  

I totally agree that you, yourself have to love peace and act for it.  I really like that you wrote that.   As you say, that doesn't mean you give up, give in or get walked on.  

I wanted to end with something about the kind of reset I was talking about in my other post, which​ was an ADHD neurology reset.   My husband and I certainly have things to work on in ourselves and in our relation.  I consider that what he and I have is a chance to tackle those things.   I'm lucky in being with him in so many ways.   Luckily, he is not someone to nurse a grudge or get vengeance.  I don't think he has a vengeful bone in his body.  

 I find that my husband, regardless of whatever the feeling is itself: anger, extreme exhilaration, worry, boy when that flash of lability kicks on it hits him like a wave.  That's all that I was talking about in my post about him, although all of the other re-set after argument issues that you brought up are very good and very worth thinking about.   My husband has had to live with himself a long time, and so can name, and does name when he is blown out of the water.  I'm pretty high strung myself or whatever one would call it.  I'm ON all the time and have to work at letting go.  So I'm not saying that people without ADHD don't get blown out of the water by feelings, or by what they go through....I've certainly had to manage myself on those matters. 

But there is something about ADHD lability that is a real, serious thing.   J has described it on this board.   I've asked other people with ADHD online about what it's like inside them when this very fast very strong blast of feeling hits them.  One man on another board, when I asked him if it felt like a tidal wave said, no it's more like a firestorm when it hits....it blows him away.   Woo wee.   Definitely time for time out.  I can crawl through routine blasted with grief or anxiety, with a mind that doesnt  work.  My husband cant at all.  That lability is a real deal. 

One of the reasons my husband and I have worked on our way of disagreeing, or having an argument, or having a fight and on lowering our fighting, is that I don't want him to have to go through these flashes or tidal waves of fight/flight or emotional Bermuda Triangles or storms that his ADHD dishes him if he's really upset.  ADHD lability is an extra that people with ADHD have to manage or be blown around by, while they're in a very upsetting situation. 

Thanks again.  You know I always read you, C.  Peace.

Now....

Now, I really like what you've said here (as usual)...Great points, and good questions...By the way, your question and the point you made about relationships ending unsettled, or with no clear ending for one or both parties is a Yes, I've lived long enough to have experienced this no closure first hand...Break ups, Deaths and parting of the ways can be hard, no matter how aware we are of the need for it, or how helpless we are to prevent it....(human's!; emotional creatures we are, whether there is an outward expression or not)....

And just to agree w/ your thinking; I've had people tell me that time was almost like it stood still when a renewal of a relationship (or meeting) came about after a long time of separation...So I'm sure this subject runs deeper than my mind is capable of going:)

I'm so glad for you and your husband that you enjoy the awareness level you do, and are able to communicate on the level you do....Awesome! :)

( I can crawl through routine blasted with grief or anxiety, with a mind that doesn't  work.  My husband cant at all.  That lability is a real deal.) 

Yes it is...This statement you've made above is basically the cause of my statements over the years that we should be aware and not engage our spouse when they are suffering in these moments of mood and emotional instability....I had to learn (learning) this the hard way, like all lessons that stick:)...Also, I appreciate Grace, kindness and understanding when I'm having a bad moment....

(We human people.     Being hung up in what happens to me, not what I do to you?) 

But in my opinion of all the great things you've said here, if I can be in a state of heart and mind that allows for the awareness, and ability to make your above statement the daily reality of how I live....Then most of the conflict in my life can be averted, or greatly minimized.....

Grace 2 you!

C

Grace

Grace

to you as well, friend

 

This is Really Helpful NON

I so appreciate your input here, amd of course your concern.  You've brought up one thing that my T and I have discussed ( since he knows me so well and my history...family members, and even my past relationships) and those patterns as well?  It's an interesting comparison to your own experience which is ( like everyone )....different, due to the players involved ( in the play )....and how that worked in our family compared to my wife's family? 

As as you mentioned my wife and her "parent" experience (compared to mine).....and even mentioning your mother ( who was borderline herself ).....this is really where I take the most hits to my well being and struggle with being a"just Okay" or accepting?

As was...in my family for the most part...and despite one parent with a personality disorder ( my father )....the dominant character there of course was my father ( the King with iron fist )...in contrast to my mother a  ( the one with ADHD ) who was compliant, complaisant and willing and wanting to be in the subservient ( and even subordinate role at times ).   When I say wanting to....it's only because I believe....she didn't know any better due to her dominant mother....who, as I mentioned in jest....what the "Puritanical Dominatrix " or "Sarge"....as our neighbor called her over the fence ( that one time accurately!!! LOL ) that put everyone on the defensive including her own husband ( my grandfather who wore the car batteries out because he had to sneak out into the garage just to listen to music for two hours on a Sunday afternoon. lol ).  What this boils down to in my mind is "grace".  I think even the word "grace" has a beautiful ring too it don't you?  ( in every sense of the word? )

So in terms of grace......you have the motivation behind it or willingness or wanting....something?  In terms of my father for example....despite the apperent atmosphere he created and the egg shells you were always walking on ( from the fear of what you could anticipate if crossed in some way )  what my father "demanded" most when he came home and was present....was peace and quiet.  That's what HE wanted and boy....you better give it to him or else.....right? LOL

And so....that's what we had for the most part.....but in a more lifeless, stagnant sense.  As I referred to it as......living in a Morgue...and "slow death".   If you think of life in a Morgue....you don't get a picture of constant chaos and conflict do you?  No constant fighting, not a lot of "noise" and not much of anything really?  Just "quiet"....as in the "silence" of "nothing"  ( like the vacuum of space ) but no peace in your heart?  When my father  ( the King ) was not around....things livened up ( especially when my sisters were still at home ) and the house was full of life, music, dancing and having fun.....while my mother stayed right in here given role the whole time as house maker and mother which again...was not in conflict with her motivations at the time?  It certainly wasn't perfect....but the motivations of even my father to come home, be served ( pipe in mouth, slippers on feet and a newspaper in hand..sitting in that Lazy boy (image) ) was exactly what he wanted so.....where's the conflict?  As long as my father....got what he wanted.....at least there wasn't a fight or constant arguing or bickering which is not what my father....wanted. ( case in point here..what my father..the dominant one with the personality disorder wanted ) And my mother....the one with ADHD who was hyperfocusing on her role a stay at home mother and caretaker....was at least fulfilling her destiny as it was....despite the gigantic "hole" that still existed but on her end....was simply not aware of what she never had ina more oblivious sense ? ( her denial of course ? )

You can fault my father ( which I use to for years but not anymore...) for taking advantage of my mothers good nature and her seemingly ( oblivious "state" ) she was in and spotting a easy person to manipulate and sensing her inability to "fight back" or "speak up" for herself and in part....that is true.  But the part about my mother....being that way "to begin with"..right out of the box) was not due to my father and he had no responsibility there what so ever )   That, without hesitation or doubt what so ever in my mind....... has every thing to do with her mother....not my father?  My mother....not only "singed up" for that duty...;..she was almost ( if not ) "insistent"..in playing that part?  Insistent to the point of....."demanding"....and "stubbornly" ( robotic -ally )....playing the same part she played at home....under the direction of "Sarge"...the domineering "Puritanical Dominatrix"...who "wore the pants in the family"  So to speak?  When my middle sister admitted to me once that she was just "trying to be Supermom"......in defense of the problems she had with her daughter and in her marriage as here rationalization perhaps?  I see that as her...just following in my mothers footsteps....because as she might see our family and her growing up situation.....very much different than how I would describe it?  But there was a conflict and something unresolved from both sisters past and the relationship they had with my mother...that had everything to do with my mothers "demands"  that she..."full fill her destiny"....as handed to her mother....without ever stopping for a moment...and asking herself......"what do I....really want? "  Instead of jumping from one "play act".....into "another" and just "doing as I was told?"  The same as the Nazi Generals at the Nuremberg Trials?  When you put it that way....."responsibility" takes on a whole new meaning doesn't it?  That and "culpability" too?  My mother....was a "grown adult"...still answering to the demands or her own demanding mother....despite...what her "demanding domineering" husband wanted?  It just so happened....the "these two " wanted...the same thing?  Who's this "we" again?  My mother...had quite a group of people upstairs she was answering too...including God and Jesus no less?  Hard to be "graceful"....when you've got a "group" of people inside your head at odds with each other who are fighting against each other...which leaves no "room".....for "you".  My mother...was her own worst enemy...and didn't even know it?  My father on the other hand...answered to "no one" but himself...and he had "lots or room" upstairs...to think and to give "grace"....if needed...and to his credit....he recognized at the very least....what a perfect "set up" he had and maneuvered himself into...despite his motivation lacking....real caring or concern for anyone but himself in that Narcissistic mind set?  Recognizing a "good deal" when you got one.....was at least what my father could see? (in spades lol )  It's easy to have "Grace" under those circumstances and at least....he offered what was "easy" for him...as a "constellation prize"....as a reward for everyone "service of him" ...at his demand?

This is where....I know I can get into trouble here ...without some explanation to start with in terms of "seeing humor" in things?  But despite my fathers "failings" and his lack of generosity.....his motivations were actually in the right place and he had that "keen ability" to read situations well?  Under his own stress and anxiety at times ( and what I have learned as his family pattern growing up ...the Polar opposite of my Grandmother...."no sense of humor what so ever" ...like "none" lol )  You had a natural born "comedian" who loved practical jokes as much as anyone else with a touch of passive aggression.....but with the acknowledgement of that in a more overt way?  No one didn't know....why or what....my father was doing including my mother...so it wasn't so much...passive aggression....but just a different way to "voice his disapproval" in a covert way...to the victim of his disdain...which in this case....was my Grandmother!!!!  The "Butt" of the joke in this case?

Enter...the mother in law here!! LOL  If there was ever a situation...where you have a "clash" in terms of "dominance"....I can not begin to even tell you....how much fun that was to watch when my Grand parents...came to visit at our house let me tell you!!! LOL  In respect to......and in "disrespect to"....both at the same time.....what my father did manage to give very willingly and generously....was "Grace" to my mother  ( but not without his own "two bits" thrown in there...which was actually my father.....being on his "best behavior"....as best he had within his ability )  And within his "disrespect"...came these hilarious moments which I have to point out....."what was"...."was. "  Even if I see it know for what " it is" now.....it does not take back or "erase" everything from my experience...... and what I did experience ( along with my sisters )  was my fathers "talent" for making "fun" and being funny which....is not "all bad"  or "all good" as I'm still seeing it today?   In terms of my Grandmother...the feelings in that respect...to everyone in our family ( aside from my Mother ) were pretty unanimous....despite anyone who might be reading this and thinking this sounds  "mean."  Saying....if you were there.....and experienced the "assault" that was my Grandmother;.....this short, (not so weak), not so timid, and not so full of "Grace" ...woman.....with limited social ability and "people skills"...it would be difficult if you were in unison with this like we ALL were....not to think this was "funny"...because it was and nothing can take that experience and the laughter away even at my Grandmothers expense?  It was in it's own way...."a coming together" or of "closeness" with our father in this respect...and it really was "unifying" and made you feel as if you were no longer the 'scape goat"...  What was...was....but from what was not right....something good still came from it and the "over-all" effect of things being out of balance....and still had this "bonding effect" or "glue" that pulled me and sisters closer....instead of tearing us apart?  GRACE.....in how I'm seeing it....is and was the key ingredient that makes that happen and despite what my father was lacking in.....he was generous ( and an intelligent enough to know )...a good deal when he had one.  Like I said....my father new a "good deal " when he saw one...despite any of of other failings to see things.....always....in the split of a second?  Always!! LOL  His principles....could easily take second seat...to a good deal whether "good" or "bad" . LOL  Like I said.....NOT..."All Good"...and NOT....."All Bad".

And in spite of my mothers "good" qualities which were many......there was this "lifeless" ....dead quality...that I am trying to describe that was NOT...my father....and he was the opposite of that?  This robotic...apoplectic "acting out" a role...by the "instruction" on the label...and what it "says" out of the book and just reading the directions...and just doing it..."as you are told".  There IS NO GRACE.....when that happens and that...was my Grandmother.....the "religious fanatic"...and "Puritanical Dominatrix".....the "Sergeant at Arms".......onward Christian Soldier!!!!  Ten- Hut!!! LOL "I am the Decider!!! and God is on MY SIDE????"  No so much in my thinking....but she didn't realize it?? LOL  My Grandmother and George W.;...had that one in common!! LOL

So, with no further a due....the story ..to pull this together and put things in context?  When my mother would announce....that her parents were coming to visit ( picture "Christmas Vacation"...and the Griswold family? lol ).....the second we would here the news....all eyes went to my father would start...by saying nothing but smiling and rolling his eyes...being the clown, on purpose.  It was like when you line up for a picture with my father and mother standing there...with my father putting the rabbit ears ( the two finders ) behind my mothers head without her knowing it and my sisters and I just laughing hysterically and my mother shoot'ing daggers at my father which only made it worse ( on her account lol )  No sense of humor in my mother when it came my Grandmother since....."humor" is non- existent....in the "Army of ONE" and "God's Army"....I guess? lol  Saying that facitiously of course since ....there is no "frick'in army"  as far as religious beliefs are concerned .....in "reality"  that is?   Combative armies of religious fanatics with no sense of humor and too the point........ like the ones who strap dynamite to their bodies and blow themselves up buildings perhaps?  Or the ones who kill abortion clinic doctors in the name of...."Right to Life"??mmmmmmmmm????? LOL  The hypocricy...is mind blowing?  Just like the "Death Penalty".  Talk about an Oxymoron...take the Oxy part off more like it and that's what you've got on that one!!!! LOL  Give me a break!!! lol

As I see it...there is a difference between "entitlements" and "ownership"...which is why I have a problem with PC..sometimes.  Forced "compliance"....in terms of others does not come from the "heart" or in terms of any "giving" or "grace"...and the few bad apples....take that freedom away from the many...in terms of the few...in that case.  "Lifeless" and without "humnity" with no..."grace" , "mercy" or any "choice" as if....we are ALL childeren...;and can't be "trusted"?  Speaking in those terms?  It's a disrespect to the many who aren't that way...in service of the few in on both sides.....positive and negative....with a middle man or "referre" involved with no freedom of "choice" or "free will" .....allowed?  But I digress.

And in terms of "freedom"....there is no "freedom" when there is no "choice" which is the foundation of this country and the "free enterprise system" speaking in terms of capitalism as well?  So setting the stage here...for the "Clash of the Titans" ( lol ).....you've got my father....who owned his power and to that extent...."owned it well".  He was a Vice President of a Large Corporation for crying out loud...you don;t get that way....by not "owing it" and "bringing it" to the table on a daily basis do you?

In contrast...the "Army of One".....which was my Grandmother.....was an Iowa farm girl....with limited resources and not a lot power or ownership on her end?  What she demanded...was entitlement...and boy, she got it!!!  Entitlement as I see it....is weak, because you haven't "earned it".  And from a "weak place"....with "weak" power and status....that is "forced upon you"...by someone outside of yourself to "back you up" and "support you".......from this is the position of "powerlessness" that my Grandmother wielded.  In the clash of these two domineering Titans....my Grandmother was "Childs Play" in my fathers hands if he chose to do battle with her which on his behalf....he chose "Grace" instead....with that little "dig" in there which he was compelled to at least...put his two bits into as a form of voicing his disapproval of my Grandmother since she was so "challenging and authoritarian? "  Be careful what you ask for?  If you spend all your time "Challenging others"...they are likely to give it to you but it will be on their terms...not yours. Picture the Peanut Gallery at a baseball game with thos spectator throwing insults and challenges at the players.  Given the chance with no one look'in....they are likely to get a baseball stuck between their teeth!  It's called  "asking for it"  and it terms of "asking for it"  just because someone doesn't punch you in the mouth...doesn't mean they don't want to...just like my wife's mother...in exactly the same way and to a certain degree....it's exactly what my wife does but cannot see the problem with this? Yes!!! OMG Yes!!! ) Wny why is that again?  Because it's disrespectful and uncalled for and just plain rude?  No one likes a loud mouth who sits in the Peanut Gallery safe from any retaliation.  What happens when the game is over...and now they have to get along with the rest of the crowd?  Self righteous "pricks"...remain the same even when the game is over?

The difference here again with my Grandmother...is she posed no "threat" to my father what so ever.   Entitlements...can be taken away any time....ownership is your forever in that sense and no one can take from that ...you already own and there is NO THREAT of losing it...when that happens?  As is said...."stick and stones...names will never hurt you?"  If you own it...they don't.  If this is a threat to your entitlement because you don;t own it....then it is?  Weakness of strength is all that is and no ownership which no one can "give you" ...or make..."others give to you"....that which doesn't;t exists from within?  It's why.....PC is futile attempt to do this in my eyes and kind of a waste of time?  Nature abhors a vacuum...and nature will take it course when humans...fail to see this?  You can't win over mother nature....when will people learn?  External Locus of Control....is a losers game and is an endless black hole...with no bottom to it?  In my mind....it's why PC.....not only won't work in the long run...but it will just create something in it;s place....equally bad if not worse?  Communism failed as an experiment too.......we didn't need to go to Vietnam for example...to help it fail all on it's own but we did try and "force the issue" didn't we?  That was a mistake.....for exactly the same reason?  So now....lets make the same mistake over and over...and take more "freedom" and "freedom of choice " and "free will" away and that is going to work any better?  That's fool hardy thinking at best....but that just my humble opinion?  You will always lose in the fight with Mother Nature...thinking you will "win" is the problem and forcing compliance as the answer?  Onward Christian Soldiers!!!!   In the name of who....again? ha!  Can you say....."self righteous"?????????

So here we are again with my Grandparents coming...and from that moment on..is where all the fun began.  It was really the thing I was looking forward too the most..and the only light at the end of tunnel as far as our family was concerned and in this case...my father was a halogen theater spot line and then some!! LOL  We would sit and the dinner table..and listen to my fathers many, many predictions of exactly what was going to happen...and sure enough...is was like having that script handed to you ahead of time...;and you would just sit back and watch the show once they arrived and it played out just as the script my father presented us happened.  Like clockwork and to an amazing degree of accuracy and precision his prediction became "reality" right in front of our eyes?  The robots walked in...the my Grandmother went to work while my father said absolutely nothing the entire time and kept his mouth shut.  His mouth that is....not his eyes!!!! LOL

And as a family "unit"...sitting all together with my Grandmother doing her thing......it was all we could do ( to not pee our pants....my sisters and I ) as we sat a watched and listened to my Grandmother carry on indefinitely with her endless chatter, her non stop talking, and her somewhat (delusional and comical ) ideas on life, politics and the price of tea in China...while holding her fork up in the air with a  bite of food on it...while talking at same time.  And there we were hearing my fathers prediction happen ..."right in front of our eyes."  I thought...how does he do that?  I'd really want to know??

My father:  "......and she will take a bite of food like a piece of pork roast...and hold it up in the air while she talking...it sits there getting ice cold..to the point that the pork fat starts congealing and solidifying and forming this case of cold pork fat all around this bite before she even puts it in her mouth.  YUKKK!!!   And your poor father is sitting there is silence the entire time...and neurotically chopping his food up in to tiny bits on his plate...and then mixes everything together like he's some Asian Chef....chop, chop, chop ,chop...turning a perfectly good pork roast carrots and potatoes into Chop Suey before he can even eat it?  I feel like doing the same thing and I can't blame him a bit.....when I have to sit and listen to your mother and watch her eat pure cold Pork fat and talk non stop!!! It makes me want to throw up it's so gross!!!! Yukkk!!!"  LOL While rolling his eyes and acting out and playing the role of the comedian for what I can see as nothing more than...."comic relief".

And then there we were...sitting there watching this happen ( plus a host of other scenarios and predictions ) and my father sitting there silently ( like evey one else at the table ) while my Grandmother never stopped....from the second she walked in the door...and with my sister and I looking at my mother throw daggers at my father with her eyes....and my father rolling his eyes and smiling..and the my sisters and I....doing our best...not to choke on our food and stay clear of my mothers daring eyes is disapproval because every single thing my father mentioned happened exactly as he described with detail and accuracy that went beyond "magic" he was that good.  It was both...amazing, funny and unifying...all at the same time and my father despite this part which was the only way he could handle it.....stepped down to my Grandmother the entire time...and allowed her the Grace of being subornation to the "Army of One" in disrespect...a in respect to my mother...both at the same time?  Not "all good" and not...."all bad"...any way you want to look at it?  The problem itself starts...with "all good"..."all bad" thinking from the get go..;and at least my father could see that...even if my mother could not.

And I just had a realization here to in those moments as I recall them?  My older sister and me....plus my father...were really the ones who were laughing and seeing this as so funny....my middle sister would giggle along with us....but she was not really getting the joke?  Interesting how my middle sister remained oblivious like my mother...yet the oldest child and youngest child....was on the inside..not the outside of the joke and to this day....I still don;t know why that is?

 

J

Thanks for the stories, J.

Thanks for the stories, J.   Dominatrix, lol.  Glad that by now you have that memory of detail about your life as a child, but can appreciate it as an adult.  

You can fault my father ( which I use to for years but not anymore...) for taking advantage of my mothers good nature and her seemingly ( oblivious "state" ) she was in and spotting a easy person to manipulate and sensing her inability to "fight back" or "speak up" for herself and in part....that is true.  But the part about my mother....being that way "to begin with"..right out of the box) was not due to my father and he had no responsibility there what so ever )

If we live with them as kids, our parents shape us a lot.   I think it's one of the tasks as adults to become ourselves, not either clones of our parents, or 180 degree opposite rejection of our parents.  No surprise that your mother married what she at some level thought was someone to dominate her, after hearing about Grandma Dominatrix and your mother as a child.  Sounds like Grandma beat the tar out of everyone she could   :)