I had this conversation with a good friend yesterday.
There is a grief, a chaos, a let-down at the retirement of a once productive person. We once were parents, professionals with purpose, prestige and identities of that purpose, producers of money, of working homes for family, of guidance, of production, of beauty, of art. We find ourselves now not knowing what we want....not knowing our purpose or even our own hearts. Because we didn't want much for ourselves but we "wanted" for others. Our jobs were as caretakers of the well-being for others or for the well-being of the institution that supplied us with money. Now, it seems those others don't want us to serve in those ways anymore or we realize that there is no appreciation for what we were doing. Especially for women, a "not knowing what WE want" seems to hit us with surprise. Because our lives did not function on the road of what we wanted. We were in service to the world, to our parents and siblings, to our children, to our employers, to our clients, to our students, to our patients, to our churches, to our neighborhood.
What do I want? I don't know. I can't seem to make out a bucket list or a to do list without it being about and for others. Were we fooling ourselves in making our lives about other people? It also seems as though some women of a certain ilk that I know who I used to deem "self-centered divas" are now crowned with adoration by those people they once "governed" rather than "served". How did I have it so wrong on my "how to be" plan? I know of people who have lived their lives for themselves with strong boundaries, with strong ideas about what they want moment to moment. They seem happier than I am now...as thought they had some information about life that missed me.
I have a young diva granddaughter like this. She is a pain in the butt sometimes when she so strongly declares that she wants the yellow one not the green one....with a fight to the death will to get her way for something that is inconsequential....she just wants her way. She often gets her way just by wearing people down with belligerence. Will she be loved more than her sister who gives and works hard for the safety and comfort and well-being of others, being empathic and caring and considerate? Is that the way the world works?
I am dismayed that life rewards those who are strong willed and pushy and grabby.
Would it be wise to teach my other kind, considerate granddaughter to know what she wants and grab it, not thinking so much about those she might have to step on to get it?
Shall I be careful to not quash my strong-willed granddaughter's fiestyness for what she wants?
I am surprised how much I don't know at this age. I used to think I was smart and that I was brought up good. Young people who set themselves up as "experts" on life issues do not know how the world turns and culture and views change. The older we get the more we know we don't know for sure.
What is the lesson for me? That is what I am trying to get at. Will H be more beloved by our children than I because he has a stronger self-will and I seem to have no will at all except to serve? Was I no more than a "hired hand", a waitress, cook, cleaning lady, chafeur, teacher? While H was a character, a personable, unpredictible, aloof mystery?....a person of interest? a buddy on par with the children?
Then how does a person who was bred to serve stop it and give herself permission and take steps toward a strong-willed self? I don't know if I want that. I don't know what I want. And if a person doesn't know what they want, how do they know where to go and what to do? How does a person have passion if they don't know what they want?
Jennalemone:
Submitted by vabeachgal on
Jennalemone:
I'm still reading the site, LOL. I cried a little when I read this. You put so much of my feelings and questioning into words. I've often wondered if I shouldn't have been more of a "diva". Of course, that's not the word I really mean.
Awhile back, my H and I went out to dinner with another couple. Both of us women had just had the same milestone birthday in the same month. I bought my own cake and champagne and flowers. My husband bought me a gift the afternoon of my birthday. It was a laptop I've since had to throw away. Just me, I am not a tech person and I view tech items pretty much the same as receiving a vacuum cleaner. Useful, need to have one but not a thrill. How would someone not know that about me?
This other woman had been treated to a weekend away and a concert by one of her all time favorite artists. (It's the concert my H said we couldn't afford to go to, so sorry to me), a gorgeous piece of jewelry and a very nice, new SUV. Was I jealous about the material things. Kinda, I needed a new car very badly but my husband's debt load prevented the purchase. However, I was mostly jealous about the thought that went behind it - the effort and recognition. The recognition. Her husband said it was because "she did so much for the family."
WTH? She was arrested for forging prescriptions and lost her license (dental hygenist) and spent time in jail. She received the sentence after her 3rd offense. The inpatient rehab twice - $$$$$$ Lost a good income. She's a felon as in practically unemployable. I asked what he meant? Did he mean she took care of the kids, their sports, their education, their healthcare, the house, groceries, cooking, laundry,home repairs and improvements, etc. while he worked and she no longer did?
Nooooooooooo...ooooooo.... Her husband said all those things were 50/50. I seriously ticked off my H because I turned to him and said, what would I need to do? Use gene splicing to invent a new species? I sat there and realized that my H did not see or value any contribution I made. The things the other H accepted as a stellar contribution were things my H considered his baseline expectations. As you can tell, it still hurts.
My husband said that the other husband must "get a lot" and I said a prostitute would be cheaper.
Your comments really hit home. I got it all wrong somehow, somewhere.
It can be a man Jen, although i do agree w/ all you say here....
Submitted by c ur self on
Satisfaction that they are adults now, and walk away?? huh! LOL....Never mothering an adult?? huh! LOL....Who am I?
I am Co-dependent....Co-dependents associate their actions w/ Love and Concern....(this is what I do) Co-dependents feel guilt and selfish if they are not trying to intervene...(this is what I feel) An adhd mind in a spouse or child that is chaotic and scattered is the perfect storm to keep me exonerating myself; blind to it....(this is what has happened to me, that and the desire to feel good about my self)...Most Co-dependents are very capable and usually high performers in life..(I humbly say; this is me also)...I am aware now, and in counseling to attack this weakness in me...
It's been very very hard for me to watch adults I love suffer. But, the reality of life is, a person who isn't allowed to suffer, never grow's, matures or learns...The need for discipline and Self Control is only learned in our pain...(Just what I'm going through now to break this habitual intrusion of others)
My pray for myself:
Father I've made my life so much harder than it should have been and should be... Please forgive me, and deliver me from this Co-dependent mind, and teach me to truly trust and wait on you...I can't be you, but, I can by Grace stand steadfast in your promises! In Jesus name, I pray...Amen.
C
Jenna My Take on You?
Submitted by kellyj on
Jenna,
I am getting an impression from many of things you've shared...that you have a kind of perpetual feeling like you are not exactly sure where you stand on things? Yet...when you talk about yourself...you are pretty sure you know certain aspects about yourself and what you want....but not sure how to get there?
I could just say it...but you sound a lot like me in many ways ( in this particular aspect I am talking about? ) that seems to come through and something I recognize?
The example you gave about your diva grand daughter brought this to mind when you used the word......"rewards"....which you are speculating to be associated with "strong willed" and connecting that to her behavior? From the sound of it.....as a Diva.....that would imply that she likes to be in the lime light and the center of attention but her assertiveness and her pushy grabby way she goes about it......."aggressively"....seems to be the stand out features which is what you are surprised at yourself?
When you said this as I was reading through it here...a couples caught my attention? We once were parents, professionals with purpose, prestige and identities of that purpose, producers of money, of working homes for family, of guidance, of production, of beauty, of art. We find ourselves now not knowing what we want....not knowing our purpose or even our own hearts.
Then how does a person who was bred to serve stop it and give herself permission and take steps toward a strong-willed self? I don't know if I want that. I don't know what I want. And if a person doesn't know what they want, how do they know where to go and what to do? How does a person have passion if they don't know what they want?
A strong will...is just a strong "desire" if you put it that way? Everyone has a "will" in that respect? But what is it that you desire and how to you get that? Moving away from "what is wrong with you"...and seeing it more as "what is right with you?" There is a lot of research and a strong preponderance of evidence out there that people are indeed...inborn with a certain "nature" to be one way or the other and the most relevant way of testing that was determining if you are "introverted"...or ....."extroverted"...by nature or with this born in tendecy to be either one of the other?
Inhibited...or .....uninhibited tendencies are related to this as well but it has been shown that less inhibited people tend to be happier and inhibited people who are more repressed and socially withdraw more which might point more to an introvert....more than an extrovert? But in this weird reversal of sorts here (which goes more counter intuitive to this) shows a tendency for an inhibited / introvert....to actually be more aggressive, reactive and more socially awkward and fearfully anxious of these situations since they are going against their "nature" to be more un- inhibited, reserved and socially isolating due to the effect of being more introverted than extroverted which doesn't seem to make sense unless you look at it that way? "Out of their element"...causes "stress and anxiety" which causes them to "react" more...than going the other way from an extroverted point of view? An extrovert is more comfortable in those same situations....and less aggressive, reactive and hostile since...they can easily get right into flow without missing a beat?
I ran across and interesting article on extroversion just to start with...that explained some research that suggests that there are actually two distinct types ( which I didn't know? ) as explained:
These concepts of agentic and affiliative extroversion were new to me, and I think they probably will be to a lot of other people as well.
In terms of popular culture, I don’t think there’s a lot of understanding about it. Agentic extraversion is about sensitivity to reward, engagement with goals and achievement, persistence, and taking a leadership position when you have an opportunity to do that. In other words, being comfortable in the limelight. It’s a social leadership dimension, really. Affiliative extraversion is also a really great trait — it’s a dimension of social warmth. People who are high on the trait, close social relationships mean a lot to them, they get a lot out of them, they’re fully engaged, they tend to have a very large group of meaningful friendships.
These are different ways that people achieve joy in their lives, different ways that they find positive engagement in the world. What’s interesting is that based on self-reports, people can be high on both, but they can also be high on one and moderate on another. Even though the traits are correlated, it doesn’t mean that you’re going to be the same on both, which is really interesting.
So someone who’s very high in affiliative extraversion, but lower in agentic extraversion, would feel a strong sense of connection when they’re with their friends or they’re at a religious service?
Absolutely.
But they wouldn’t necessarily feel a drive to seek out a leadership position in one of those areas?
That’s likely — I would say that.
How about someone in the reverse case — lower affiliative extroversion, higher agentic extroversion? It sounds like simply hanging around people they like wouldn’t be enough, that they’d almost feel like there was something missing because they aspire to some sort of leadership position?
It’s hard to impute how people feel in different sorts of situations, but it seems consistent with what you might predict, that agentic extraversion is really about going for reward. That reward can be in social context, it can be in a workplace context, it can be lots of contexts.
Is it unlikely that someone would be very high on one trait but very low on the other, as opposed to high on one and moderate on the other?
The traits are positively related, which indicates that they are not entirely independent. In addition, they also have a normal distribution, meaning that high scores and low scores are going to be naturally less common than scores in the middle. Putting these two things together, I would think that the combination of low scores on one and high scores on the other would be relatively uncommon.
Those comments made (not in bold ) were by the author of the article not me...but it did make me stop and think about this more since I woulD fall somewhere in between as it mentioned...more evenly distributed would be more common?
But now...there is another problem with this for me which makes it even more confusing since now you have to look at introverts and which type you are in respect to the same kind of research which found there are actually 4? YIKES! The plot thickens?
Taken together, the first letter of the four types spells out STAR, which is what Cheek named his model. He designed it by surveying about 500 adults, ranging in age from 18 to 70, asking them about things like their preference for solitude, or how inclined they are to daydream. The uniting principle of all four kinds is, of course, a tendency to turn inward rather than outward — but beyond that, it gets more complicated.
Here's a brief description of each:
Social: Social introversion is the closest to the commonly held understanding of introversion, in that it's a preference for socializing with small groups instead of large ones. Or sometimes, it's a preference for no group at all — solitude is often preferable for those who score high in social introversion. "They prefer to stay home with a book or a computer, or to stick to small gatherings with close friends, as opposed to attending large parties with many strangers," Cheek said. But it's different from shyness, in that there's no anxiety driving the preference for solitude or small groups.
Thinking; Thinking introversion is a newer concept. People with high levels of thinking introversion don't share the aversion to social events people usually associate with introversion. Instead, they're introspective, thoughtful, and self-reflective. "You're capable of getting lost in an internal fantasy world," Cheek said. "But it's not in a neurotic way, it's in an imaginative and creative way." Think the dreamily imaginative Luna Lovegood, not the socially awkward Neville Longbottom, Cheek said, putting it into Harry Potter terms I, for one, am deeply familiar with.
Anxious: Unlike social introverts, anxious introverts may seek out solitude because they feel awkward and painfully self-conscious around other people, because they're not very confident in their own social skills. But, often, their anxiety doesn't fade when they're all alone. This kind of introversion is defined by a tendency to ruminate, to turn over and over in their minds the things that might or could or already have gone terribly wrong.
Restrained: Another word for this one is reserved. Restrained introverts sometimes seem to operate at a slightly slower pace, preferring to think before they speak or act. They also might take a while to get going — they can't, for instance, wake up and immediately spring into action. Haruki Murakami's What I Talk About When I Talk About Running contains a passage that I think neatly illustrates the restrained introverts, when he discusses how it takes his muscles a while to warm up when he starts to run. "When I put on my jogging shoes in the morning and set out, my feet are so heavy it feels like I'll never get them moving," he writes. He says it's the way his mind works, too: slow to get going. Murakami, I would bet, is a restrained introvert.
So far, Cheek's model of the "four meanings of introversion" is just a working paper. But many psychologists I spoke to, such as Scott Barry Kaufman, scientific director of the Imagination Institute at UPenn's Positive Psychology Center, think it's an important step forward in expanding the meaning of introversion. "I do think it's best to talk about different types of introversion rather than lump all of its aspects together under a single umbrella," he said. Kaufman has written about Cheek's model for Scientific American, and also used it as part of a basis for a new test measuring introversion for the Quiet Revolution, a kind of for-introverts/by-introverts website launched earlier this month by Quiet author Susan Cain. "Even people who do understand introversion still imagine that it's really just about, Would you rather be on your own or with a close friend?" Cain told me. "In fact, there's so much more than that."
Instead of working to correct the public's perception of the word, Cheek is essentially seeking to transform the way personality scientists think of the trait, by expanding the definition. "Many people do not feel identified or understood just by the label introversion as it's used in the culture or by psychologists. It doesn't do the job — it helps a little bit, but it just doesn't get you very far," Cheek said. "It turns out to be more of a beginning."
But now....throw this into the mix which is what I have arrived at for myself ( finally lol ) which makes the most sense and what I actually think is the most accurate for me?
Ambivert
It’s Not a Label, It’s a Spectrum
Instead of thinking about extroversion or introversion as labels, let’s think about this as an extroversion spectrum:
When I talk about the Big 5 Personality traits I explain that there is an extroversion scale. You can rank low, high or medium. People who fall in the middle of the spectrum are ambiverts.
Why Ambiverts Are Awesome
Many people assume that exotrverts are the best at sales, the best leaders and are the most successful at work—WRONG! Adam Grant, an associate professor at Wharton School, did an analysis of 35 separate studies and found that the statistical relationship between extroversion and income was basically zero.
He conducted a personality survey and collected three-month sales records for more than 300 salespeople, both male and female. The people who ranked right in the middle for extraversion and introversion (ambiverts) turned out to be the best salespeople.
Ambiverts pulled in 24 percent more in revenue than introverts, and a mind-boggling 32 percent more in revenue than extroverts!
Grant guessed that ambiverts seem to strike a balance between the two more extreme personality traits:
“The ambivert advantage stems from the tendency to be assertive and enthusiastic enough to persuade and close, but at the same time, listening carefully to customers and avoiding the appearance of being overly confident or excited,” Grant said.
Ambiversion: The Lost Personality Type
The Freedom Of Being an Ambivert
From my understanding, Jung would say that we all have “preferences” of what we would like to do, but we also have the capacity to be able to be both introverted and extroverted. And as we get older, we slowly migrate towards the center of the the continuum scale in most of our functions, as part of the self-actualization process. The majority of people, although slanted towards one side of the scale, operate using traits and preferences from both sides.
Ambiverts are people who don’t really prefer one way of functioning over another. In other words, you could say they’re the neutral, middle-ground hippies. They’re equally comfortable in situations where the introvert feels most at home and situations where the extrovert is having a good time. That being said, I would consider myself an Ambivert. I don’t feel drained from social interaction or going out shopping, and discussion energizes and invigorate me. I constantly seek dare devil risk taking stimulation, while simultaneously relishing quiet time with my books and catching up on scientific essays. I’m both overly confident, but also reclusive and critical in thought.
The freedom with Ambiversion comes in finding both Introverted and Extroverted worlds satisfying and rewarding. Ambiversion helps you to enjoy a varied life. Ambiverts have enough introversion to slowly absorb the world around them and enough extroversion to be able to propound ideas and express themselves (through writing of verbally) without feeling depleted.
What I wanted to say Jenna....is that I have mostly been an Ambivert with more Extroversion in my past which did migrate to the middle now as I got older just like this said? I think there are those who are more strongly ( strong willed ? ) to be more introverted or extroverted but as I now feeling I was more Anvbivert right from the beginning? When I say I am not "picky"...or "don't care"...or have any real "preference"? I'm not being wishy washy or being undecided? My own comfort zone "naturally"...is more in the middle and that is where my strengths, strong will and desires come from? I can be introverted sometimes...and sometimes I can extroverted ...but both are comfortable and easy for me to be...and I can change and adapt from one to the other...pretty easily without a sweat? That's why I can say I am ....INFP / ENFP myers briggs test...which always put me nearly smack in the middle?
It also means....when I say "I'm easy"......not withstanding and aside from my ADHD symptoms? I am? And this is why?
It's also why women...who were looking for a Big Strong Macho Leader Dominant type of guy who will take charge, and make decisions, bring home the bacon and be the "Leader" or "Head of the Household" ...chose poorly with me thinking this is what they would get? It's not who I am....but I never claimed to be...more importantly?
Trying to be that...in which...I was not made to be...is what causes me stress and unhappiness and I am "out of my element" there for sure? I have had to become more that way by default which goes directly against my nature ....but it is not what "floats my boat"....or what makes me happy and brings me joy? I was not designed for that purpose...and assuming I was...was making the wrong assumption by any women in my past?
I was designed by nature....be exactly as am and exactly as this describes? Take your pick I guess? It's just good to know....which one you are and who you picked to be with?
Something to think about if you haven't looked into this yourself? For yourself that is?
https://lonerwolf.com/ambivert/
J
ENFP / INFP Jenna
Submitted by kellyj on
What does that look like?
INFP
We Know What We Are, but Know Not What We May Be
At their best, these qualities enable INFPs to communicate deeply with others, easily speaking in metaphors and parables, and understanding and creating symbols to share their ideas. The strength of this intuitive communication style lends itself well to creative works, and it comes as no surprise that many famous INFPs are poets, writers and actors. Understanding themselves and their place in the world is important to INFPs, and they explore these ideas by projecting themselves into their work.
INFPs have a talent for self-expression, revealing their beauty and their secrets through metaphors and fictional characters.
INFPs’ ability with language doesn’t stop with their native tongue, either – as with most people who share the Diplomat personality types, they are considered gifted when it comes to learning a second (or third!) language. Their gift for communication also lends itself well to INFPs’ desire for harmony, a recurring theme with Diplomats, and helps them to move forward as they find their calling.
Listen to Many People, but Talk to Few
Unlike their Extraverted cousins though, INFPs will focus their attention on just a few people, a single worthy cause – spread too thinly, they’ll run out of energy, and even become dejected and overwhelmed by all the bad in the world that they can’t fix. This is a sad sight for INFPs’ friends, who will come to depend on their rosy outlook.
If they are not careful, INFPs can lose themselves in their quest for good and neglect the day-to-day upkeep that life demands. INFPs often drift into deep thought, enjoying contemplating the hypothetical and the philosophical more than any other personality type. Left unchecked, INFPs may start to lose touch, withdrawing into "hermit mode", and it can take a great deal of energy from their friends or partner to bring them back to the real world.
Luckily, like the flowers in spring, INFP’s affection, creativity, altruism and idealism will always come back, rewarding them and those they love perhaps not with logic and utility, but with a world view that inspires compassion, kindness and beauty wherever they go.
ENFP
The ENFP personality is a true free spirit. They are often the life of the party, but unlike Explorers, they are less interested in the sheer excitement and pleasure of the moment than they are in enjoying the social and emotional connections they make with others. Charming, independent, energetic and compassionate, the 7% of the population that they comprise can certainly be felt in any crowd.
You Can Change the World With Just an Idea
More than just sociable people-pleasers though, ENFPs, like all their Diplomat cousins, are shaped by their Intuitive (N) quality, allowing them to read between the lines with curiosity and energy. They tend to see life as a big, complex puzzle where everything is connected – but unlike Analysts, who tend to see that puzzle as a series of systemic machinations, ENFPs see it through a prism of emotion, compassion and mysticism, and are always looking for a deeper meaning.
ENFPs are fiercely independent, and much more than stability and security, they crave creativity and freedom.
Many other types are likely to find these qualities irresistible, and if they’ve found a cause that sparks their imagination, ENFPs will bring an energy that oftentimes thrusts them into the spotlight, held up by their peers as a leader and a guru – but this isn’t always where independence-loving ENFPs want to be. Worse still if they find themselves beset by the administrative tasks and routine maintenance that can accompany a leadership position. ENFPs’ self-esteem is dependent on their ability to come up with original solutions, and they need to know that they have the freedom to be innovative – they can quickly lose patience or become dejected if they get trapped in a boring role.
Don’t Lose That ’Little Spark of Madness’
Luckily, ENFPs know how to relax, and they are perfectly capable of switching from a passionate, driven idealist in the workplace to that imaginative and enthusiastic free spirit on the dance floor, often with a suddenness that can surprise even their closest friends. Being in the mix also gives them a chance to connect emotionally with others, giving them cherished insight into what motivates their friends and colleagues. They believe that everyone should take the time to recognize and express their feelings, and their empathy and sociability make that a natural conversation topic.
The ENFP personality type needs to be careful, however – if they rely too much on their intuition, assume or anticipate too much about a friend’s motivations, they can misread the signals and frustrate plans that a more straightforward approach would have made simple. This kind of social stress is the bugbear that keeps harmony-focused Diplomats awake at night. ENFPs are very emotional and sensitive, and when they step on someone’s toes, they both feel it.
ENFPs will spend a lot of time exploring social relationships, feelings and ideas before they find something that really rings true. But when they finally do find their place in the world, their imagination, empathy and courage are likely to produce incredible results.
Ambivert means a little of both or either one...depending on? I am a Chamleon in that regard? Extrovert and Introverted versions which puts me right in the middle? You sound like you have some of this yourself from the things you've said?
J
J - Thanks
Submitted by jennalemone on
Thanks for responding, J. I appreciate your reaching out looking for clarity and connection as I do. I couldn't read all the text you attached....too much. But I read between the lines where you put in your own words your thoughts.
I am going to read it again another time....the word "agentic" is new to me...I will have to explore that further...It seems that I am very "agentic".
I am familiar and was tested with the personality tests you talk about in a corporate setting with a trained leader....group department meetings. I don't remember where I fit in but I do remember that the Extrovert/Extrovert people were usually the ones that I would look at and go "Gee! So you really don't have anything in your mind except how you look and how you feel and what you want? There really are people who don't care to listen and reflect and then contribute after they take the time to consider others?" That was a new realization for me. That some people really don't hear anything others say because they are busy about how they feel and how they look and want to immediately explode with their own verbal and active exuberance. That was about all I remember out of the exercises that and that I also remembered thinking I wished I were one of those extroverted attackers rather than my thought-filled self....they seemed more pleased with themselves.
Yes, we are born with some traits and we are molded with some traits by experience. I don't have lots of people in my life to pick and choose who to "let in" to my life. I have to "make nice" with those I get to have. For me, that is a bigger problem than "how" to get along. It is having to get along with whoever happens to be in my life or be alone. I work in home studio office and live in rural small community. I talk to clients and friends on the phone each day. But you can imagine that friends come and go in our lives and when you are in a place where you aren't meeting many new people, the old friends you lose are not filled by new people. You are at the mercy of your own need for human contact.....hence the online reaching out I do.
Writing this out makes me realize that THIS is a BIG problem for me. I used to love living in a city in a college affiliated part of town....lots of people, discussions, groups, activity. Lots of places to feel affiliated. Then I worked in a medium sized corporation where there were many types of people to find and associate with and talk with like-minded and different-minded people. I am realizing my need for people and my lack of affiliation in my life. Although I join and attend a poetry group, an art group, church...and on some committees and groups within, I feel like someone who is "out in the cold" just visiting...waking in and out of entry/exit doors for short periods of public connection. I don't feel like I belong to the acres of woods, weather, gravel driveway and nature animals where I reside. It seem quiet and lonely. I work. That is my relief from the aloneness. When there is no work there is just the internet and the TV.....like so many of us. What I am in such dire desire for is more human contact and diversity and liveliness around me. When you spend so much time alone, your personality, your way of speech, your thoughts, don't get exercised so you don't hear yourself or see yourself responding to anyone or other people. When you talk to the TV or the dog, no one responds....it is just silence that echos back at you.
Just free-writing here I guess. Trying to find out where "I" went and who I am now that I have very little affiliation on an hourly basis.
I Remember Jenna
Submitted by kellyj on
That you said you live in a rural area which must be hard for you when you really want to go out and meet people? I have to say...I have no excuse in one sense living in a city but you know...I end up not going out as much as I use to mostly because I am just more of a home body now as I've gotten older? I actually don't mind being home more often than I use to but the same thing applies as you said? Working from home and just not interactiving in person with people is still the same if you never get out and do things even of they are just around the corner or a few miles from home?
The one place that I have always met new people is in the pool when I swim. It seems the same people of like mind seem to show up at the same times which makes it easy to meet people who share the same interests? It also seems that those of us who use to swim competitively....still end up at the usual watering hole...so to speak and when we do....you just can't help pushing each other and falling back into the old patterns again? The unspoken rules that everyone knew from the past.....just somehow never need to be said I guess?
The only problem for me is....I get my butt kicked every time that happens!! LOL Could be worse I guess? lol
I think the problem with passion is mainly....not feeling like it when you get depressed? The only cure for that I found...is go out and do it anyway and force yourself to do it? As they say about the Lottery.....you can't win if you don't buy a ticket?
Have you ever considered going on a vacation or travel by yourself? Even a short one for a 3 day weekend? I have actually done that a couple of times in the past and it's amazing how many people you meet.....just by being there? Know what I mean? I think more than anything....a change of scenery can make a world of difference everyone once in while? It does have a lasting effect even once you return home and it doesn't have to be expensive? Road trips have always done the trick for me just being on the rode and with no literary but your own? Eat when you want. Stop when you want? And no one you need to ask for permission ? For anything?
J
Road Trips...Vacations...& ADHD
Submitted by c ur self on
J, I love road trips, beach trips, love the mountains....But, I don't know if this problem is common for most couples where adhd is present or not, but, it's been very difficult for us two, to agree on things...I guess we are kind of the perfect storm...As much as I enjoy these trips, the backlash from our inability to come to agreements ruins even the though of what should be wonderful times...
I can be miserable at home, why spend money to do it??
She was in her mid 40's...Single, Loves to travel, never had to respect or work w/ a spouse, so she made all the decisions...Where? When? How long? itinerary...
I on the other hand being a widower at 50 (married 30 years), i know you just don't run out make a bunch of plans for someone else and come home and dump them in their lap??
The way I view it (adhd or not) ...If we start with the mindset of mutual respect...Then as spouses we can come to agreements or calm disagreements w/ out the negativity...The fact is we don't like the same things, we have different natures...I'm no where near being considered a passive personality, But, compared to my wife, I'm a lamb....
In my experience there has been very little ability to adapt, (put yourself in others shoes)...Is this and adhd symptom or personality??....Here's a few examples (real stuff from the past)...I wanted to go the beach for a few days, she agreed, but, wasn't her first choice...She ruined the trip...(she was there in body, but, her spirit was much like a pouting child the whole while...What kind of an adult does this??
Example 2) Beach concert, thousands of people, we show up late w/ no chairs...Very loud, so we hold hands and I tell her, Lets just work to a spot where we can set down and enjoy each other and the music...We find a pretty nice place not to far from the bathrooms, but plenty of room....3 minutes maybe and she gets up and say's lets go toward the stage. I say I'm not pushing through this sea of people who paid the price to get here early and get set up...She leaves me...LOL...Now you can get mad (like I did) or you can learn, like I'm doing now...Accept the difference in our thinking and steer clear of putting myself in stressful situations. That is just breeding ground for conflict...
When there is no respect or consideration for others past our own selfish desires (speaking of me, her, anyone), it's best to steer clear of betting on yourself (your money, vacation time, desire for intimacy, sharing and relaxing) to be able to interact w/ this type mindset. Chances are you will only wind up in deep disappointment....
An adult can force (take authority over) their children to comply. And as a single individual they can steer their own self satisfying course...But...this don't work with a spouse or other adults...And this is the Problem! Can it get better? I think so...If denial of it can be replaced with awareness of the tendency....But it takes another painful trip to the mirror :)...And sadly so many of us refuse the gift or growth that is waiting in the reality of our own reflections...Yes...Change is definitely possible...But...It's another one of those road trips, you must take alone in the flesh anyway:)
I think I can speak for the majority (going to anyway) of people who get married....We seek out spouses to share in life with as mature adults...Key word Share...That only works when there is Respect present....So when a person's reality is we can share as long as I am controlling the What, Where, When, & How, then no thank you!...That's not Sharing!
Burn me once, shame on you...Burn me twice shame on me...
So now that reality is setting in for me....I can agree w/ you, road trips alone as a 60 year old married man may not be my preferred choice, but, I'm learning to load up my truck, throw my bike on back...And head out peacefully w/ no remorse....Acceptance of reality!
C
Yep You Got It C
Submitted by kellyj on
From what you just said...it boils down to this? I always have to ask myself..."Self, I am being prevented or blocked in some way...from doing the things I need to do.....or in this case.....things that you want to do...that make your life better or enrich your life experience if you were to do so...but can't ...because??????? Fill in blank here [ ].
And for no other reason ( as in real legitimate obstacles or concerns that everyone could agree on and say....yes. That is reasonable. ) Then now what? Either I not do these things and go without ( live a life of deprecation ) or.....be with this person and just concede or relinquish the fact that if it wasn't for being with them...otherwise...I would be doing this anyway? Or... not be doing this...depending on the circumstances?
I'm talking about the same things you are here...which have to do with things we want or need in order to do this...that ( most ) might not see why this is a problem?
I have to go back to something I mentioned once...in that I did well in college in Legal classes or pre-law classes because they held a big interest for me? And I did really well in them for that reason alone?
What I remember...in terms of legal definitions...is the concept of "The Prudent Man Rule" in common law practice....as means to resolve a case and render a verdict by the judge...where the statute fails to accommodate the exact parameters in any one particular instance? To put this simply...where the letter of the law fails to meet the criteria..and the judge needs to interpret the law and try and fit that to a close as he/she can which amounts to a judgment call?
As stated: Prudent man rule
The Prudent Man Rule is based on common law stemming from the 1830 Massachusetts court formulation, Harvard College v. Amory[1] The prudent man rule directs trustees "to observe how men of prudence, discretion and intelligence manage their own affairs, not in regard to speculation, but in regard to the permanent disposition of their funds, considering the probable income, as well as the probable safety of the capital to be invested."
Under the Prudent Man Rule, when the governing trust instrument is silent concerning the types of investments permitted, the fiduciary is required to invest trust assets as a "prudent man" would invest his own property with the following factors in mind:
the needs of beneficiaries; ( your spouse )
the need to preserve the estate (or corpus of the trust); and ( YOU in this case lol )
the amount and regularity of income. ( what each person will get out of.... [blank ] ....tin order to lay the cards on the table and see what you come up with? )
And I will always remember ( when my father was home and slowly dying of emphysema ) spending time with him in my parents bedroom..and watching Judge Wopner on The Peoples Court" back in the early 80's. And this one case...which is where this really applied ( in a humorous way ).
This guy was trying to sue his neighbor for damages but the lead in was....this guy had a flower bed...and the neighbors dog kept running through it and ruining his flowers. So the neighbor...built and stone wall along the property line to keep his dog out but the neighbor with the flower bed didn't like the wall? So the neighbor with the flower bed....took a tape measurer out...and measured the skim coat on the wall that extended over his property line...since the neighbor building the wall didn't account for that when he layed the bricks originally right? So now...the added skim coat over the bricks...extended like 3/4 of an inch...over the property line ( no joke....it gets better lol ).
So now...this neighbor....takes the 3/4"...and multiplies it by the entire square footage of the wall...and then calulates the total encroachment onto his property..and then divides this by the property taxes he has to pay for his entire property..and comes up with the percentage dollar amount of this encroachment..and comes up with a figure like $1800 this guy owes him for the violation of his property rights?
And the judge ( judge Wopner ) goes....."when something becomes so trivial and so unmeasurable...that the law does not account for this....the Prudent Man would say...that this amount is too small to account for any violation of the law?" ( or a close as I remember it? ) Which basically was telling this guy...that he was being ridiculous and vindictive...in so many words?
And then after the fact when they interviewed this guy...he was still fuming over the dog ruining his flowers...and was bound and determined to find some way to be compensated as he said...."this isn't over yet....I'll find another way to get even with him?
And then the neighbor....who was this very unassuming....pretty unflappable guy when asked about this said... "Ooh...I'm shaking in my boots" with a big smile on his face? Which was when my father and I busted up laughing which is probably why I remember it? ( the shaking in my boots part )
What can you do with someone...who has a mind set like this? "Shake in your boots all day long?" LOL Or forget about it...and do what ever you were going to do anyway? Pretty much? LOL
I think I rest my case. ha!
J
Road trips and ADHD
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
Hello C,
I'll bet you'll hear from J his take on ADHD and solitary vs shared road trips. Since your thread title does seem to put ADHD in there as a potential factor producing difficulty on road trips, I wanted to check in on this topic as well. We've certainly read some accounts of vacations in which there have been spouses wandering off, blowing up, not coming out of hotel rooms and so on...
I think it sure is true that the combo of traveling partners' personalities can make a long trip either wonderful, or a long Hades. I don't think ADHD per se is the source of un-adult behavior on a trip.
My ADHD husband and I have fit together well on road trips. He had some differences from your wife, going in. Due to his work, he had a huge amount of experience traveling, before he and I began together. It's a non negotiable of his job. He has to do it. That means that he has a repertoire for, and an understanding of what it takes to get through, the on-the-road misfortunes or surprises of travel. And he had traveled with other people, so he wasn't learning how to do that from scratch, with me. He is also 20 years older than your wife.
I agree with every syllable you wrote: on a trip, especially a road trip, both people, not just one, have to be in on the details, and both people need to be not divided in opinion on a lot of stuff. Life on the road doesn't accommodate anyone, in my opinion. Yes, mutual respect, as you say. The smaller the space you travel in, the more important things like prior communication, flexibility, sharing and so on are needed, I believe. There's nothing like sharing the insides of a small sedan or the cab of a pickup for three solid days on the road... marriage encounter weekend. Add bad weather and semi trucks and it's a double whammy. Shall I mention GPS systems having bad hair days? Flats? Whiteouts?
on the other hand being a widower at 50 (married 30 years), i know you just don't run out make a bunch of plans for someone else and come home and dump them in their lap??
You and I have chatted before about our spouses' ingoing tendencies to plan out our time and social engagements without telling us, and then just drop their plan on us. Golly, it took a long time, repeating it, to get it across that my husband could not promise out my time, or make decisions for me regarding shared social engagements, that he needed to hear what I could do and would do, and we would have to co plan scheduling. It doesn't sound like your wife has gotten to that point yet.
In my experience there has been very little ability to adapt, (put yourself in others shoes)...Is this and adhd symptom or personality??
My husband has on-the-road adaptability. He was a road warrior for his work, and still is. But he sure had to learn it. I'm lucky that he worked this out with himself before he and I started to see each other. Speaking only for my husband...I don't think I can generalize about an ADHD personality... yes, he adapts, and has the ability to adapt.
But C, your post has gotten me thinking about old, underlying matters that affect people traveling together, and whether they adapt or not in other circumstances. I don't know how unusual my husband's life history is: at the beginning of his adulthood he had to physically nurse someone in that person's last illness, had to be the one deal with the responsibilities and details of the death. He all along from the age of 16 had to work at jobs and keep them....just like you and I did....beginning at about age 16, and continuing through life. He HAD to. No one else was paying for his food and shelter. I just can't tell from what people with ADHD write about concerning themselves, how many go through that real-time, real-life, having to learn whatever needs to be learned, to get jobs and keep them, all the while having to manage one's own ADHD. J did. My husband did. Having to keep a job, to keep food in one's own mouth and shelter over one, keeping oneself from quite seriously, living on the street is a tough way to learn how to get along with other people, but it teaches that lesson all right. My husband is an independent-minded person, but it was clear as glass that if he wanted to be paid, he did what his employer was paying him to do, work with other employees, and do it well enough that he would keep getting paid.
It sounds like your wife came into your marriage not knowing, or not having signed on to do, some basics of relationship, that my husband had to learn do-or-die, in his late teens and 20s on his own. It's tough to be the one on which one's partner has to work out these things. Or be the one in the relation in which things come up, because things always do in a relationship.....it's a relationship, not two Me Myself and I ....and one's partner lets or requires Partner #1 to pick up the slack, or acts out, hides, deflects, doesn't deal with what needs to be dealt with. I'm sorry you're going through that. Really sorry.
....Here's a few examples (real stuff from the past)...I wanted to go the beach for a few days, she agreed, but, wasn't her first choice...She ruined the trip...(she was there in body, but, her spirit was much like a pouting child the whole while...What kind of an adult does this??
Mmmpf....that's such a total drag. So also were the other travel incidents you told. No, she wasn't acting like an adult.
I'm glad that you're getting out to see some world at times. However you get there. I like J's post about that, just above mine.
The ADHD Factor NON
Submitted by kellyj on
This got me thinking too? What or when...do I have the most difficulties in doing anything? When I have no experience or am not prepared? But here is the difference in what I do..compared to what it sounds like others do under those same circumstances? It's one thing to deal with these issues myself..for myself.....as long as that's all I have to do at the time? If that's all I have to do....I'll do just fine and won't impose on other people. I like your husband it sounds.....have learned how to adapt and change on demand if needed without too much of a problem?
But now....what happens if I am hit off guard and someone else is relying or counting on me...to do that for them as well? Like a child or dependent? If I planned for that ahead of time...that would be figured into my calculations ahead of time and that would be fine...as long as I knew that ahead of time? But if expect...the person I'm with...to be where I am as well..and they're not ( rolling with the punches like I'm doing ) and they are having a melt down or having some unforeseen issue that I have not accounted for ( not like getting sick or injured of that nature ).....but more just having a personal issue that is requiring me to suddenly...account for myself and them at the same time? This is where I have the most difficulty and am not usually very accommodating by nature? I am not the softest "touch" in that respect...when people who apparently....are losing their shit...for no apparent reason if I can't see what that reason is or account for this myself?
The things you said about your husbands traveling experience reminds me of one of my best friends who use to travel 4 days a week for 18 years and he would tell me his flying experiences and the best story of all...was one time on a completely crowded business flight during the week and he was seated in the very back of the plane and this gentleman sat down nest to him..and in ony a few ,minutes as he said "I knew this was going to be a long flight!! " LOL
Apparently....in the first 5 minutes after this man sat down next to him....he pretty much got his entire life story including the fact...that he was deathly afraid of flying, he had invented some new machine that crushed rock for ( anyone who needed crushed rock?? lol ) and some big Corporation in San Francisco was buying the rights to his invention...but he needed to be there that day to close the deal and had to fly anyway .....despite...his morbid fear of flying? LOL This happened in just the first 5 minutes while the plane was still boarding? LOL
Fast forward to after the plane was just off the ground and this man was starting to have a real problem..and apparently...my friend asked if he could be moved but the flight attendants basically said the plane was full....but at the same time....were seemingly staying clear of this guy because as he said....'they didn't want to deal with him" which was really pissing him by that time since he was there "stuck" with him and trying to calm him down? LOL
As he said.....by this time...other people seated around this them...were starting to get agitated as well? ( if you can imagine? ) Mostly...because this guy seemed extremely focused on the wings outside the plane and kept mentioning that he thought they were "moving" in that they were bouncing a little under the turbulence which my friend assured him was normal? And since he was making these comments rather "loudly" with a sense of desperation in his voice....this might not have the best effect for anyone under those circumstances right? You know...."hey...I think the wings aren't screwed on tight or they forgot to tighten the "wing nuts" before take off? "....or something along those lines? lol
Then apparently....the plane hit an air pocket and the wings really stated bouncing up and down ( as they do ) and this guy lost it..and stood up and started screaming...."WE'RE GOING DOWN...WE'RE GOING DOWN!!!!!" In a complete state of panic.LOL
While my friend ...by this time...got up and demanded that the flight attendants do something but they were already ahead of him on that much..and the co-pilot...had to come back and have a talk with this gentleman and eventually...they moved him all the way forward right next to the cockpit in first class in order to calm him down or else they would have had to turn around and let him off the plane?
So in respect to this story..and how my friend was in that movement? My tendency would be more along these lines...and in a more general sense across the board in situations like this which I have to admit...is not one of my best qualities? Under those conditions....I tend to be less compassionate...and more irritated and not very forgiving in the sense that I understand flying can make you a little nervous or even fear full....but even then....I feel, when I've got to hold my mud along with my impulses to stand up and shout " WE'RE GOING DOWN!!!!"...in a panic state....I HAVE TO....NOT DO THAT.......and I find it in myself....not to. No matter what my personal problem is?
The same as anytime....I am having a personal crisis...and I've got to keep a lid on it? No matter what?
The closest I ever came to actually dying for real doing one of my more extreme sport moments? Was when I was scuba diving off the coast of Hawaii...with a professional diver who decided to go straight down to 165 feet...and myself and a friend tried to follow him and I got "Narked" or "nitrogen narcosis"...where you get over saturated with too much nitrogen in your blood too fast which can cause you to black out? When I started seeing stars and hearing "pinging" noises in my ears and things were getting grey ( or greying out as they call it )...I had a about no seconds to do exactly what I did..and do a very risky emergency accent right to the surface without my regulator in my mouth since if you don't blow air out of your mouth all the way up...your lungs will rupture and embolism. As jut one concern? The other concern is the nitrogen that is already in your blood...has a tendency to "fizz" like a soda pop when you open it...and that can kill you too? Not so fun and games at that point...but the lessor of two evils compared to passing out which only has one outcome so that was an easy choice?
In the meantime....my two friends were dealing with their own nightmare of sorts because right when I started to go....a 14 or 15 foot Maco Shark decided to cruise into the neighborhood down stairs? So while I was jetting to the surface...my friends wer getting into defensive posture behind any rock they could find and were preparing for the worst with Jaws...if you can imagine? This was a cluster Fuck of monumental proportions and everything was Foo Bar....right up to our eyeballs!! LOL
So when I was going back down to find my friends...they were coming up and coming up fast with me wondering what was happening? And the guy who brought us there just grabbed my arm and pointed up and I followed him? So now.....when we got the to the surface....they told me about the shark... but also told me that I had more time to decompress and I had to go back down or I would get "bent"...or the "bends" if I didn't? So if you can imagine...me sitting there...holding the chain to the anchor and having to stay there for 8 minutes? That was the longest 8 minutes of my life...and you can bet....I was not doing well by that time!!! LOL I was looking around me every second...thinking that Jaws would be coming at me at 30 miles an hour and I would have been a Pu pu ( appetizer ) for lunch...speaking in Hawaiian terms that is. LOL
So when I consider a lot of things...or even this guy standing up in the middle of a plane right after take off and yelling...."WE'RE GOING DOWN!!!"..because of what he believed that was happening...wasn't happening? Even for me...with ADHD and all the issues and emotional liability that goes with it? That includes a tendency or predilection to be anxious with a touch of OCD?
If I couldn't....or was without....any ability to pull it together and not have a melt down over things of a lessor nature...then I wouldn't be here writing this...if that was true? Just an FYI....for anyone who might be reading this?
And no....I don't....walk in and dump things on peoples lap..and expect them to just pull it together for me...when I can't do that for myself? Just another FYI.....to put things into perspective? lol
J
GOING DOWN......
Submitted by c ur self on
At least your friend saw it coming...It's the one moment calm and all smiles then the next moment rage and name calling that is the stunner....The sad part is the denial and no apology many times....
I think this kind of volatility, in a person who truly would love to be able to a void it (in my wife's case someone who knows the Christ as her savior) forces themselves into denial...(her safe place) That's why she wants it to go away immediately, and if you try to discuss it, you get fight or flight....Much like the denial that can happen with rape victims, especially young teens....THAT DIDN'T JUST HAPPEN!...I think in the deep reaches of her mind she struggles w/ worth and depression...(love language is affirmation) It's hard to affirm someone who lives so protected and so resentful of her role in our marriage, but, I want to, and by Grace I want give up.... I have deep empathy for her...I was hoping she would see me in counseling, and it would encourage her to self-awareness, and to find a therapist and work on just herself for a time...It could change her life, it could change our lives also...
J you and Now, both said some wonderful things...I appreciate you both hopping in here, and loving on me...I've been intentional lately about trying to keep the focus on myself, instead of what I can't do anything about...But, it is good to be able to run certain things by people I trust to be honest and knowledgeable....
Thank you both for your responses!
C
You're welcome, C
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
Forgive me if you've told us and I've forgotten, C, but have you considered, or talked over with a therapist, the possibility that your wife is Borderline, as something beyond her ADHD?
As a memory refresher on that, I went to the NIMH on Borderline symptoms.
https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/topics/borderline-personality-disorder/i...
I'm not wanting to armchair diagnose your wife. I think diagnoses need to be left to professionals. I think I was thinking about you, at the receiving end of those fast shifts from calm & smiles to rage that you described. I grew up in a household where one parent was Borderline, which was what took me to the NIMH page to look at their list of symptoms that can be in the Borderline cluster.
From wherever it comes, that thunderclap shift in seconds from one mood to another .... ....I think the recipient of the sudden targeting needs some special self care, if those sudden shifts to attack happen very often, & I hope you've gotten some coaching by a good therapist on how to manage not only in the middle of them, but after.
Not that I think that you're a delicate little flower, too delicate to handle life. No, no, I'm just hearing/reading with attention and belief that you're getting the impact of Borderline-like lability and anger...rage you say... those behaviors are really, really tough on the people who get blasted by them, at the receiving end
:) So this is not just loving on you, it's worrying on you as well. And on J and on others on this site who report these sudden ragings-at being pointed their way.
Now
Submitted by c ur self on
My wife want discuss her add/adhd w/ me much at all. She is resistant and defensive about it so I have learned to step away and leave it alone for the most part (just causes strife)...We tried marriage counseling for 8.5 months, a few years ago, it mostly was a pissing contest between a hurting and angry man, and women who is in denial and closed off to her reality. (can only relate through blame) Cannot speak about the realities of her life...Not in my presents anyway...That's why I think it's vital that she take on a therapist/ life coach for a while...But that is up to her...I'm really done trying to promote anything but self-awareness for us both, and that only if asked....
I've just started counseling for myself...I think I've mentioned it....
I read the piece on BPD, a few things cross-over, but not most...That I have observed....
Delicate flower:)...I love this!...But in all seriousness...I think I am HSP, (highly sensitive person) and I'm pretty sure my Father is...I am a peacemaker and think it's vital to live a life of thankfulness, and gratitude....So, and I hope this doesn't sound wimpy LOL...But the truth is, I am highly impacted by the angry outbursts, the judgments, the accusations and name calling...Sorry for all the adjectives, but they are a package deal...
Also it is hard to watch her be so cheery around our children and friends...and be such a victim when we are alone...It's like she's 90 and has quit on life when it comes to our marriage...It wears me out:(...People who are thankful learn to enjoy what ever stage of life they are in...I think part of it is just the life she has lead...she allowed her house to go basically in complete disarray...She rushed to work, still does most days...She can only focus on one thing at a time...It has been extremely hard for to adapt from single care free, to the responsibilities of a spouse (considering the feeling of her husband)...I am a structured in a lot of ways...Like I said: Perfect Storm in most ways...
She carried and still carries a lot of guilt about having her children out of wedlock...She was determined to make sure they didn't miss out on anything in life...Entertainment experience's...Like JH Ranch in California, (It's high dollar) she kept them involved in churches that had people with $, who helped her fund their trips out of love...Her whole life was about them...Their sports etc....they are great kids..Slow to mature....but that isn't hard to figure why...
I really don't know if there is an official diagnosis for what is up w/ her....
I have decided that I am going to see to my own sanity, while I still have a little...Thanks for your encouragement...
C.
C I Really Do Understand and I Do Feel
Submitted by kellyj on
I have an advantage over you in respect to your wife? When it comes to my wife ( and I cannot...say my reality is the same as anyone else either ).....what I was mentioning about my own experience with the reality of these "extreme situations"....it does give you a base line of a point of reference you can use to guide you in respect to the "things you think you are afraid of "( in your mind ) ...and then have something to compare too....in reality? Even me mentioning the breif time when I was having more "real manifestations" of "worry gone bad"....with some OCD behaviors in my late twenties when I was working from my home doing jewelry work.....and got so wound up with fear in being a target for theifs....in that, this is a real concern for those in the industry..and there are plenty of stories including ones I have heard first hand from people I know personally who have been robbed by professional jewelry thief....who have been known to work in teams, follow their victims and coordinate there "operations" by staking out their victims....following them ( to their routine places they go on a regular basis including their homes ) and either lay in wait to surprise them or even attack them in order to steal from them?
I know personally.....3 people who have been tied up...or hit over the head...in an attempted robbery once...and the other two were successful. I know another 3 people personally...who were followed by thief and then when they went into a store ( one was just a 7 -11 to get coffee ) where the theirs broke into the trunks of their cars and were gone before they came back out to the car...in literally seconds or less than a minute? And even my own father once...was chased at high speed ( over 100 miles and hour ) in a deserted stretch of highway ....by who he felt were thieves who had followed him around coming from several of his stores that he managed out of town...who had no idea...he was not carrying anything of value...who were just going to force him over as they made one attempt to do...just in the hopes he had something without knowing if he did or not? Many times in fact.....these people come here from other countries ( Columbia being one hot spot for these people )....to rob and run and leave the country which is a real concern and a real problem since....they are so bold and brazen about it ( broad day light no less in busy urban areas ) since they have their escape out of the country pre-planned ahead of time and they are very organized ( with communication devises, decoys, multiple cars.....etc......) and they appear to have no qualms about using violence in order to achieve their goals? Mostly....I had heard that these people will get hit over the head once really hard...to either stun you and instill fear in you to get you to comply and are not given a chance to even try by doing so first....without saying anything or very little? It is entirely base on ambush and surprise.....the point in saying this? One man I know very well and have done business with for years ( a gold refiner and supplier ) ....was hit over the head and robbed in his own parking lot outside his business right during the middle of the day with a bunch of employees just inside the door who never saw anything since he parked just out of view from any windows? Right outside his own front door no less? Literally like you might see on a TV show...with a van that pulls up with 4 men inside, and side door slides open....two men jump out, one hit him on the head, one grabbed his carry case, one stayed in the Van looking out, and one was the driver..and they were IN and OUT before he could say Jack Robinson....just to give you idea of a "real threat" and a "real concern".
It's not just the stories or the fear of this happening.....that causes the problem...it's that they a "true" and the closer to home they get....the more fear and anxiety can be created inside you if you have an issue or a tendency to ruminate and worry? What ever you think it is......is never what it is....and that's the part where experience comes into play? You have to realize first off...the goal of people like this...is to be one step ahead of you and no matter what you come up with in your own head as a means to counter this...or imagine "what you would do...or....."how you could prevent it".....they've thought of that already...and will likely do what you are not expecting anyway? That's the point...of someone who uses "ambush" and "surprise" as a means to overwhelm their victims? No matter how "smart"...you think you are....they do this for a living.....you don't....straight to the point?
And the only reason for even bringing this up is that this is the example of me....developing these OCD symptoms at home during this time....for this very reason? The "Kernel of Truth"...in my case if you will?
But here is the ADHD component to this story...that I actually was aware of and figured out during that time to stop myself from doing the "classic symptoms" of....checking, and re-checking locks on doors....and then started doing some "counting rituals" which were getting more elaborate as time went on? But outside of the "locks on doors" things and the problems with having to go back and recheck myself? I started checking things like irons and stoves too....or anything to do with heating elements like toasters as a another example? How do these things...related with getting robbed or making sure that doors get locked in order to prevent "easy access" while you are away? Like I said....the people who do this kind of thing....rarely go in through the front door and usually do this while you ar away or outside anyway? Cognitively speaking.....the front door is the least likely access point anyway...and what does that have to do with hot irons and stoves?
This is exactly what I realized at the time...and how I was able to overcome this and nip this in the bud since as I said before...I thought it was creepy? The feeling I had that was creepy....was feeling like I didn't have control of myself...and that was something that I was not willing to tolerate even for myself? It's that creepy feeling that I think....a person who is like this....might misinterpret as being attributed to things....on the "outside of them"...or "onto another person"...without realizing....it's "All In Your Head" ....or happening inside your body...and no where else? If every time you see a woman...and a fur collared "fur coat" with animal prints on it......and immediately associate that with Cruela Diville from the Disney story 101 Damations.....you will begin to see "villains" everywhere....every time you see any woman in a animal print fur coat and think she is evil? Or any "man" who walks behind you at night....just because it's "night time"...instead of the day time....who might be on their way home...the same as you are if you are a woman that is? As if......all men who walk around at night....are Rapists....to the point? The logical consideration that...if you are walking home on that same sidewalk...and you are not a Rapist....therefore....another person doing the same thing you are....would logically conclude that they are probably not a rapist....just like you.....never gets considered? The probability of that is 1000's of times more likely than the other version which might have odds like......1 in 10,000 or 20,00 or 50,000 of being a Rapist since....any chance at all...even 1 in 1,000,000....is just too risky to take a chance? Your mind will start playing tricks on you...and you can literally talk yourself into anything....unless you realize where this is coming from? When you lose the ability...to do what I just did...and do the math in your head...to arrive at a reasonable conclusion and calculation or "risk"....then you are operating "irrationally" and using your emotions to tell you what to do? And emotions....and not "logical"...what so ever? And with "No Logic"...and without any means to access it....then this is what you get and this is where your decision making process comes from? Emotions...are the things that signals us...to use logic and reason...and are there for that reason. To use as a signaling devise or a sign post in the road.....they are meant to replace sound reasoning...and logic....in moments of crisis or even in our everyday lives? Whe emotions and feelings....take control of you.....then Logic and Reason.....fly out the window!! And when that happens.....things get screwy...along with your ability to simply "think"....instead of react.....emotionally...and not very intelligently I might add which is really at the heart of the problem here? If you can't find some way...to pull it together and use logic instead of emotion and feeling....then you are a victim of sorts....to yourself....more than anything? Every thought or thing you can imagine or think up when you are operating under conditions of emotions and feelings....and not using Logic and reason instead.....you are going to find yourself...acting and behaving in ways....you will come to regret later after the fact? If you are trying to use your emotions and feelings to do your "thinking for you" then you are doomed to ever use good judgment or good common sense.....ever? If you cannot "over ride" your own feelings and emotions....then you are kind of operating...like a "child" in the same way who doesn't have this ability....where as..."adults do". That's the point of bring this up? Even adult people with ADHD......have this ability...just like me? I can do it?
So what's the excuse here? As far as I know and everything I know....ADHD does not prevent anyone, from gaining control of their emotions ....it just may be more difficult to do...without some more normal inborn features that allow you to filter these things automatically...which means...you've got to do it "manually" by thinking things through? The simple skill ....in a general sense across the board....in simply recognizing when you need to do this.....stopping yourself.....from getting too far down the road...but this is where the "real problem comes from"...when thinking about ADHD?
If you stop and think about this for a second.....if we have to go through this process...and arresting our emotions due to this emotional liability issue which I think I can safely say....is just having "bad breaks" and not having good "governors" installed? LOL And without any other means or without awareness of this......you do automatically....start "thinking" in terms to deal with this on your own? But every time you get "triggered" and every time it emotions that get triggered? Then what kind of thinking are you using at this time? Emotional thinking? YIKES!!! THAT IS A MAJOR PROBLEM!!!
In order of the way this works is......you feel something like fear.....then your emotions come in second...and then your emotions take over...and now you are literally a "Functional Retard" of sorts? Since I said ...I don't care about labels here.....then I will say it first.....when I do that "I am a Functional Retard" ...due to this problem I have related to my ADHD? If someone who has ADHD...would like to take issue with me because I use the word "Retard"....I will save you the trouble...since I know I am not "mentally retarded"? Far from it...going in the opposite direction?
But at the same time....I might use the word "retarded" as a behavior? When someone stands up in a crowded jet plane and screams "WERE GOING DOWN"....at the top of their lungs? You might as well yell "FIRE"... in a crowded theatre and cause a panic where people killed tampeled and killed...and then later come back and say....."Ooh....sorry.....I saw a flame...but it was jut the person in front of me with a lighter....my bad....oh well? " NOT....OH WELL.....when that person instantly reacted to seeing someone light a lighter and then cause a stampede and people got killed...because you were mistaken in what you thought? That...is "retarded" as a thing to do...for someone who is not....."mentally retarded" or......has IDD challenges as it is now used as the replacement for this "old technical description or diagnosed label in the past?
Even better as far as I am concerned? Now....'retarded" is not even the correct label for a special needs person with cognitive challenges ( or IDD person ) and it is "free from associating that word from the diagnosis...and can be used liberally as means to point out behaviors that are just down right "stupid". When I behave in these ways....or "act" in any way that I feel is on this level of thinking.....I call myself "A total Retard" or just completely "Stupid"....because I know....I am not this way normally..and stupid and retarded has absolutely nothing to do with it?
What does have absolutely....everything to do with it....is this thinking with your emotions and trying to replace "logic and reason" with "emotionally based" decision making and using your emotions and feelings.....as a poor replacement for actual "rational thought" and "intellect" ...or ..."intellectual thought process's" which require you to "think".....not "feel" or make "emotional decisions" without thinking them through first? It is most likely true....as I know this for myself....that this happens unfortunately with those of us who have ADHD at times....but it doesn't;t mean we can't control it....and this is where I get a little impatient at times myself?
In my example of the scuba diving "crisis" I experienced....I knew exactly what to do...since I have learned it and practiced it..and then was tested on it for real...once before in my final "in the water" exam to get certified for scuba diving? And here is something else to throw into that equation that I think is just more of a complaint...in the powers that be sometimes? This is where my own distrust does come from...but in a healthy way as I am saying it?
Side note: here not to go too far off topic but it is related to what I am saying...in "thinking things through" thoroughly...and exploring all the possibilities first ...before you launch off and take things for granted and not continue to probe and find out all the answers first or.....basing decisions...on the wrong premise...and then relying on those same people....to give you good advise or answers and not questioning their motives? This is a perfect example of where I feel personally ( and am now personally invested ) due to my experience where I think the decision made is "wrong".
My scuba instructor...was an ex Navy Seal. So in that...the powers that be....decided that making students...actually perform an "emergency assent" during the course of instruction...was quote unquote....."too dangerous" because they had some cases where this became a problem...so they discontinued requiring students from doing so in testing?
And in the case of my instructor....he totally disagreed with this decision, and made us do it anyway...despite what the "regulations or requirements" of the administrators of the testing determined who were determine what was in the best interest for everyone and what was "best for everyone"...due to the "few who had a problem" out of everyone...who seemed to do it just fine without one...which would make more common sense if you can see it that way? If you can the problem here.....the decision...was not based "everyone"....it was the based "on the few who had a problem based on fear alone...and nothing more? This was an emotionally based decision then....based on fear and safety.....which actually went contrary to safety..and more to do with the testing method instead? Not good logic....not good reasoning...and not good for anyone...except for the possbile few who had a problem? Do you see where this is going and why this is bad?
So now...they stopped making instructors "test" students for real ...at least once...just to have this experience...so as....not to risk it for the few...and therefore....NO ONE gets the experience? And the reasoning behind it is said....as a "safety concern?" How completely "retarded" is the logic behind that decision? I might ask? In lue of the fact...that "Safety" is why you learn to do this....in "Life and Death" situations.....without any experience before hand? If that is not the most 'retarded" decision one could make? I don't know what else is? That would be like learning to fly and airplane...by reading about it in a book?
And in my instructors mind.....after: setting under water explosives under ship and boats and laying land mines in rice patties in Vietnam during that conflict. Being dropped from a helicopter at 60 miles and hour 20 to 30 feet off the water and bouncing like a ball on the surface and then immediately going under so as not to be seen by the enemy at night. Being buried ( intentionally ) at 200 feet deep in a hole 6ft deep ...filled in with sand and mud on top of him..and then having to dig himself out by hand....as just part of the testing he went through to do his job as a Navy Seal....he figured...a one time "test experience" in just performing that emergency assent "once" in 30 feet of water in a low stress environment under supervision in a class setting....was not a lot to ask or to just show...that you can do it "once"....just in case you ever needed to use it? So he made us do it anyway....and went directly against "procedure or the rules" and made that a requirement?
And as far as my life is concerned? That decision he made from logic and reason....saved my life....and in my mind.....I might not be here...he hadn't made us do that? Despite the powers that be...who said....it was too "dangerous."?
And the point I am wanting to stress here...is not about disobeying rules or going against procedure? It's understanding the motivations..and where they come from? If danger and safely are in play...then so are "emotions" and "logic" as well and knowing "why" and where the information is coming from...allows you to make you own decisions...and not base them on someone else...even if they disagree of are using emotional reasoning...instead of sound logic and experience...to guide you in a moment when the rules may or may not apply? And if you can't do this for yourself...and go though this process in order to make "sound decisions" based more on logic than emotions? Then will always have to "trust" someone else to do that for you...instead of trusting yourself and doing this on your own and not relying on what others have told you...since you have the experience on your side....as a means to compare to and make your own decisions...even if someone esle says....your "wrong"?
So to reiterate this scuba diving example and recap here for a movement?
Was it a good idea (based on what I said )....that the powers that be...decided not to make scuba students...actually perform and emergency assent in "real time" under super vision in fear that because a few people had a problem ...and therefore.....everyone doesn't get that experience?
In my mind....I would be dead right now...if my Navy Seal instructor...from his experience...said NO....that's a bad idea? He had the experience...that told him that...and he deferred to his own experience...instead of listening to the powers that be who had a different approach of idea...based on what they thought was best for everyone and changed from the original testing...based on a few people who had a problem with it?
I want to stop here and make it a point to say.....THIS IS THE PROBLEM RIGHT HERE. And I want to make it clear....exactly what I am saying..and why I am saying it?
Going back to my OCD "manifestations" and how I learned to overcome them and stop them completely...which is directly related and one in the same...as this problem. It is not a different problem...or "similar"..or ...."like it"...it is the exact same problem....but just a different context?
The thing about me....with these "creepy" manifestations as I am calling them? And why is it...that "heating elements" got included into fear of being robbed? Because...it isn't or wasn't the "fear of being robbed" that was the problem? Which is why....this makes no logical sense..and actually makes no sense....at all?
WHERE DOES THIS FEAR COME FROM THEN? LACK OF TRUST IN YOURSELF.....PERIOD.
Consider...I knew nothing about ADHD or OCD at the time? I had no experience, no knowledge or no seemingly...ability to figure this out to stop it? So how did I stop it..and how can that be?
What I realized and identified by myself after really thinking this through and stopping and wanting to understand where this came from? I had to look no further than...the 1000's of times...people had pointed out and complained...that I would walk away and leave doors unlocked....stove burners on..and irons and things of that nature on...due to my lack of attention and awareness of it....countless times in my past. Many many times...to the point....how could I not know that since it had happened my entire life? Once I realized that it was my own lack of trust in myself since I had the answer right in front of my nose? I didn't need to know any more than that...to find a way around it? Saying...if my own lack of trust due to my failure to do these things and is causing the problem?
When what's the obvious answer here? TRUST MYSELF YOU IDIOT!!! DON'T BE SUCH A RETARD!!! SHEESE!!!! LOL (speaking for..and about myself only since....I knew and know...that I am not stupid or a retard..and that much I believed and knew as fact? So that would say, as I would and have said to myself? "Self...if I don't want to be a retard...then I better not act like one or like someone who is not very bright....and acts or behaves in "creepy ways"? That was pretty simple...as means to motivate myself you might think?
The problem with this thinking however....is it can only be applied to yourself? If someone else were to have said that to me...I would have likely wanted to punch them in the face instead of run off with mh feelings hurt? It doesn't work the other way around? It only works for you and depending on what "motivator you use" or which you choose to use for yourself? What ever works works? But you can not extend that to anyone else and assume it will....in the same way this worked for me? But I had long since adopted...the "sticks and stones" policy I could apply from childhood to to say.....this is not who I am...this is just a behavior I think is retarded as my means to access this..and as a motivator to change it? I created a consequence for my own failure...without taking that on as a judgment of myself and that's what I called it? And it worked to do this for me? I knew nothing more...than I didn't like this behavior..and made that behavior itself..something I wanted to stop and get control of and by realizing my own lack of trust in myself..and the reasons why with those 1000's of examples of people pointing this out to me....all I had to do...was "force myself...to trust myself"..despite what my feelings and emotions where trying to tell me?
And so I went about the process...of teaching myself ...;how to trust myself better in those circumstances which meant making up a routine and new ritual to follow...every time I left the house? I simply....started at one end the house and did a walk through...one time...and just glanced at the things that troubled me..and then walked straight to the door and when I lock the door...I told myself...."it's locked and I see it locked with full awareness of it"...and only allowed my self to do that one time through and leave and never look back or return to check myself again? No need to check myself...if I trust that I did everything that I was worried about...and no need to do it more than once...If I trusted myself and knew I did it?
That took me...all of about 3 days....to stop..and never do that again which eventually and even now....I never even think about any more? Have I forgotten to lock the front door ever? No. Have I forgotten and left the oven on or stove burners on? The oven I have...but what's the worst thing that can happen? Used gas or electiricty? That's it? Oven are made to do that..and they don't really where out if they are gas anyway like mine is? In fact...the fact that it's a gas stove...makes it more obvious when it's on since you can see the flames compared to other types of heaitng and I may have left a stove on for a short period of time after cooking...but I see it immediately when I walk back in the kitchen since the only time that happens is right before I eat anyway? The worst thing that could happen if a stove or oven is left on....is probably nothing unless children are around? Even if...lets say...a napkin caught on fire? The stove in under a ventilation hoods and stove in made of stainless steel..and the counters are made of granite? What can catch fires here? Nothing...in my case? Even if...a napkin or something like that actually caught fire and burned up if I left the stove on? Even the floor won't catch fire...if a burning napkin fell to the floor while on fire? And if I had any doubts about that....all I'd have to do...is light a napkin of fire and let it fall to the ground...and watch and see what happens? I could do this 100 times to make sure if I needed to...but I don't need to do that maybe more than 3 times at most...to prove to myself that this won't cause the house to burn down? It might make a black mark on the floor...but that's about it?
The point isn't to justify the times I might forget? The point is....I don't forget...when I am aware of this and am not using emotional illogical reasoning to find my ways around things of this nature? All I have to do...is just prove it to myself by experimenting a little..and actually trying it out to see what happens? I don;t have to listen to anyone or take their word for it...if I have the experience that tells me the answer...without a shadow of doubt in my mind? Experience is the best teacher...and trusting myself is the answer...and not believing what my emotions or feelings a more than anything or anyone else? Emotional reasoning based on feelings is just the indicators or sign posts in the road. They can't tell you anything and for me saying.....cannot always be relied on or trusted. That much I know for sure. Only sound thinking based on logic and good common sense base of rational thought....is what I can always trust to make good decisions...based on experience more importantly the way around this....no matter what...anyone else tells me...or thinks I should do? Or how I should do it? If I trust my methods and have proven them to work for me...then all I have to do is trust them again..and stop and think about what and why...do I feel the way I do...and where are those feelings coming from? Once I know that. I have all the answers I need for myself as long as I can trust them....it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks or what I am told? About me that is...which is what this is all about as I am saying this? None of what I said....can I apply to anyone else..but I don't need to necessarily....but it does give me a possible insight into others...when I see the same things as well?
This might be the advantage I have over someone else with ADHD...only based on my own experiences and what I have figured out on my own...even before I knew I had it? I have found at times...it can work both ways with my wife in that....i do recognize these things with her...and I have my experience with this to go off of? That might be an advantage in respect to the things she says and possibly knowing when I am hearing BS...in terms of the BS that people with ADHD ( just like me ) tell themselves and get themselves to believe it? When I hear ME...speaking non sense from my past....it is both...a good reference point..and at the same time...a source for irritation...when I see someone not willing to "feel a little pain"....in order to use that to get past these things? I know it won;t kill you...and I know that it sucks and is painful? And I also know that nothing will happen...if you aren willing to go through a little pain that won't kill you...in order to make you life better?
This is where I run a little short on patience with my wife.....because no matter what she is trying to say "IT IS"? I KNOW WHAT IT IS......and I also know what it feels like?
And when someone of this nature that I witness personally...stand up and yell "WE'RE GOING DOWN!!!" ....in a jet aircraft full of people..because they can't get a handle on it for this very reason that I share in...to a certain degree? My patience gets a little thin sometimes....because I know it can be done....with some effort and a willingness not to act in way that I might say is "Retarded"...or simply saying it as.....ways that can cause a lot of problems for other people and even do damage because of it? It's one thing to damage myself and myself alone? It's a whole new ball game if someone is killed...because you thought that the person in front of you who "flicked their Bick" means the entire theater is on fire because of you own "creepy feelings"...that you mistakenly assigned to something or someone else instead? The only creepy person in that case...is the creepy person doing it? To make sure I don;t get in trouble here....I would that "creepy person" ...in my mind only...if I behaved that way...but again...that is my carrot and motivator...not to be that "creepy person" that I don"t want to be? If that's the trick and the way around it for me...then that's a good way for me to do it?
Like I said earlier.....you could call it "yo mammie" if you want to? It really doesn't matter to me? LOL What ever works? Right?
J
Retarded??
Submitted by c ur self on
Right J...Logic and reason vs emotional response....Now retarded for myself (concerning myself) shows when I don't apply this very sane formula to my communication attempts with my wife...No matter what has just been said or done...Because up until now; logic and reason tells me....She's not in any mental position to hear you! And, if you try to push into that closed defensive mind...You are going to get ur feelings hurt, AND you will turn emotional...I need to post this on my forehead...wait a minute?...You think she would mind if I posted it on her forehead, so I can see it?....LOL....
Maybe I should come up w/ a new plan..You think?
C:)
Replacing the Word Retarded with a Better One C
Submitted by kellyj on
Not the give the impression that I see myself this way as something to be proud of but.....I get this feeling ( a very old one to be sure ) that there's a quality inherent, that is making up this difference that I am purely speculating based only on the conflict I have had....not only with my wife, but in the same general sense I was trying to express to NON about the other seemingly inherent quality...that makes up the difference between men and women that no one seems to be copping to? Copping too would imply that we all know this but no one is telling and that's probably exactly wrong...in how I just said it?
All I can say is this appears obvious as I said to NON ( from my perspective ) and the only way I can see this or better...something I just watched a show on wolves in comparing them to dogs? Fascinating show....where a woman who owns a wolf and some wolf/dogs ( 1/2 breed wolf dog mix ) who's been studying them in her own compound out in the desert where they are free to be wild and behave naturally in their own environment? The thing that first caught my attention was the fact the this woman has a Doberman as a pet along with another dog who run and play with the wolves since the wolfs have been "tamed" ..as she describe the one full blooded wolf, who has actually been obedience trained to the point of taking commands from this trainer and obeying...but only up to a point as she describes this?
In her words ( paraphrasing here )....:"wolves are not dogs...and they never will be? A dog...is a domesticated wolf in reality. A wolf is a wild animal....and will not, and can not...be domesticated, and this is what people do not understand when thinking they can have a wolf for a pet? A wolf...will never be a pet and can never be domesticated ...never ever. They can be trained however....but this might lead you to believe they are like dogs in the same respect to a dog. That is not to say that people can't own a wolf and keep them as wild animals with them...but in order to do that you have to adapt your lifestyle around the wolf....not the other way around. To do so...or to try and make a wolf adapt to your lifestyle like you would with a dog....is abuse for a wolf under those circumstance and is damaging to them an abusive to put them in that kind of situation? The only way you can keep a wolf...is to have a large area ( like this woman had with an electric fence surrounding a large track of land out in the desert next to her home ) and allow them to be wild and run free as they do in the wild?"
This woman also went on to say...that she had received a lot of emails from people wanting to if they could have a wolf as a pet..and she apologized for the fact that in her videos...as she said "I tend to show the more plosives features of owning a wolf "...but went on to say...that it is difficult thing to attempt to do and it is not an easy task to accomplish since they are not easy to keep with a lot of negative aspects that she generally doesn't show in her videos. Namely...and what you don't see or don't get to see primarily ( due to her skill and knowledge as a handler ) is the danger since as she said "their bite is 10 times that of a German Shepard...and they are much more powerful than any domesticated dog."
She actually showed her Doberman and her other dog...playing with the wolf and running around the compound together which was really endearing to see...however, there was a point where the wolf had had enough..and you could see this when the Doberman backed off imediately...sensing this and being respectful..and backing off and giving the wolf some space.
As I watched this....you really couldn't get any direct signals from the wolf as far as you could see....but the Doberman knew it imediately from the unspoken language between the two of them in their interactions together. And even though these two animals were about the same size in comparison...as she explained " the (Doberman...can't remember his name ) wouldn't stand a chance against Lauren ( the wolf ) if it came down to a fight? And the dog understood this instantly..and knew it's place or where it stood in order to comply and be respectful...instinctively?
Mutual respect in other words? But as it would appear....dogs and wolfs seem to know this intuitively...and humans .....and especially men and women....seem to be oblivious to these differences and make the wrong assumption. It's almost like women ( the domesticated dog )....believe that men ( wolves )...can be domesticated like they are...but as this women describes this...."would be abusive to a wolf...to try and make them as pets like dogs."
You can't have a wolf as a pet....but you can "keep them"..and "train them in obedience"....but they are wild animals...and can never ever be domesticated? And thinking you can do this just because they will play and be affectionate with you just like a dog ( the domesticated version of a wolf )...is making a critical error in understanding the difference...and there the difference between the two types of animals....is more than just meets the eye?
C....I can see the corollaries here..... amazingly accurate in translating this over into human behavior as well? As said....or how it appears to me as? It's much easier for a wolf..to see this difference from a wolfs perspective...than it is for a dog...seeing this the other way around? And the failure in understanding this difference..and not showing mutual respect for this difference...is seemingly where all the trouble and conflict originates from? And from a wolfs perspective...if humans and dogs are domesticated and try to make the wolf adapt to them? As the woman said...."wolves are wild animals...and will never be domesticated and this is what people do not understand? To do so...would be abuse for a wolf if a person were to try and do this."
All I can say is C....a part of me understands this....painfully well?
J
Inherent Nature Coming Full Cirlce Here
Submitted by kellyj on
Jenna,
Since I am trying very hard here with you...to actually help you ( and really myself as well ) come to some understanding in the things that I just said to both C and Non here...I would be remiss in not saying what has crossed my mind a lot lately in that...I am attempting to do something that is really outside of my area of knowledge or understanding ( or inherently God given it seems ) in a skill that I seemingly do not possess but am learning how to do? This came directly from my therapist as a means to approach this for my own understanding and to keep in the fore front of my mind with my wife specifically as he recommended I do? And to say this again differently to make sure I am understood here....it is a new skill for me ..that is somewhat out of my own inherent nature, and since I don't have children myself....it would appear with no experience what so ever but I am leaning how to do it...which is very awkward for me and feels funny to do...for that reason only?
If I were to guess...as the main difference between men and women in this area...inherently?
Women are born to nurture. They aren't born to serve? I see a big difference between these two things myself since...this is what I attempting to do with my wife as well? Nurture or to be nurturing...is outside of my area of expertise naturally speaking and I don't think this is abnormal necessarily...from a mans point of view either?
And in the same way....men aren't born to serve or be served either and I think this may be a fallacy ( possibly? ) in thinking about this more closely?
In fact...if you think about it....if a person is serving..another person...that would automatically put that person...beneath the one to be served and this is where my own feelings about this really come into play here in the example I gave with my own mother and the problems that this created for me?
First off....I remember my mother at times ...when my father was out of town on business...coming to me and asking me if I wanted something to eat which she was voluntarily wanting to do? I've got to tell you honestly.....this made me feel both guilty..and uncomfortable in that...there was something inherently wrong that I could feel about this...that I never liked and further...use to respond to her this way as a result from this feeling?
"If that is not too much of an imposition for you then sure I am hungry? But don't go out of your way on my account and don't go to a lot of trouble in making anything fancy just for me? What do you feel like eating? Just make what you want for yourself..and I will come join you as long as you are making something to eat for yourself? If not...don't do it on my account...I can get something to eat on my own if that's the case."
What I just said....was my natural response...to being served by my mother. Which always made me feel a little uncomfortable and a certain amount of guilt every time she did or would try to with me? This is where my mother use to say that I was "odd" in respect my behavior in this way...which I had no idea what she was talking about at the time...but I knew it made me uncomfortable and feeling guilty about it? That much....I always knew...which is why I said what I said..in order to compensate for this feeling I had?
My take on this now? Is that this is not natural to serve in that way? There is a difference between a job...and a role...in how I see this? When I work at my job....I am serving my customers needs but they are paying me to do so.....otherwise...I wouldn't do it? What? So I'm going to work for free out of the goodness of my heart? That would be kind of difficult to rationalize...when it came to paying the monthly bills wouldn't it? A job...is a job.....and a role....is another thing entirely? A role....as NON was making her point with me.....might be that of an "act" a person may act upon? Or act out? Or act up? Or not have their "act together"? But a job is a job...and a fair exchange is in order for barter or exchange with another person? If the pay scale is unfair....or the pay is not equal to the service rendered....then there is imbalance of service to payment ...in that respect....which has nothing to do with the role of the "nurturer"...or any other "role" one might play?
A role is not for payment...per se? A role is more of what you are designed to do....and something you fulfill for yourself?
When I say I am an Artist...that is not the definition of the "job I do for work?" It is within the job I do for work? But I do a lot of other things and play a lot of other roles at work..and change hats all day long ..and then put my Artist hat on as the main course of the day?
When I come home..and go out in my shop and just do Art for Art sake? I am fulfilling myself and my inherent design as an Artist...because this was my God given talent..or role as a person? That is what defines me more than anything else? And I don't need to be paid money for that ..since the payment I receive is in fulfilling who I am and the role that I was designed by nature to do?
If I were to take that and reduce it down to it's lowest common denominator? I "produce things....or produce tangible objects for use from the earth? Either Atheistically...or for utility.... that serves a function for myself and others to use? That I guess...from what NON was saying....would be indirect impact...or serving...indirectly speaking? I don't serve people as in a "service industry". I serve humanity...with both useful...and Anesthetically pleasing tangible objects made from materials found on earth? Anytime I do that whether I get paid or not...and am fulfilling what I was designed to do...and using the talents that God gave me to use? It is in the very essence of saying...I am fulfilling Gods plan for me....by design of nature? This is and was...a very old feeling and a drive that I have no answer for...but when I do it and follow that feeling....I am fulfilled as a person..and I am following the design that I was made to do when I get paid for it or not? That is not my job....that is more of the role that I was designed to do?
I don't think that men and women are designed necessarily to serve each other like a job which is where I feel the problem lies perhaps in this concept that women are suppose to serve men? Or their families? And that feeling I had when I was at home with my mother...was telling me that which is why I felt guilty at the time? Just to point this out....from my own experience and what those feelings mean and how I interpreted them and put them into action or by saying the things I said at the time with my mother for example.
And in the same way I think possibly more women ( for sure for obvious reasons ) are by design and by nature to be more nurturing than men inherently? I for one and speaking for myself alone here....am a piss poor nurturer with no inherent gift there at all.....but I am learning how to do that better....with no inherent gift or skills in that department...what so ever as far as I can tell but I am learning how to do it better. That is... starting from scratch, literally. I really have less than 0 ability...or any real skills in that department which I am admittedly saying this, just so you know?
I hope that helps you possibly separate these things out for yourself and find what your true calling is...so you can find fulfillment and satisfaction in what ever you do?
J
Article in the online Atlantic Monthly
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
Good morning, Jenna
I thought about the post that you posted, to begin this thread, when I read a piece this morning in the Atlantic on why it is that some people have such a tough time recuperating after a relationship is ended. I certainly count in that group of people, in the past.
As I read, I turned over the thought that it seems to me that people have to deal with those issues of self and things ending in relation, while still in relation. I haven't thought it through yet, but I wonder if that's so even in relationships that the couple find positive. There are always losses in relation: loss of unrealistic expectations, loss of job, loss of health, etc etc.
At any rate, I thought of you. I didn't find that the article ended up providing suggestions about a new approach, or new kinds of self care; I think by now the idea that we are affected by the narrative that we live in, in our head has been around for quite awhile. Maybe the body of the article would have something useful though.
I've certainly agreed with you, over the time here on the board, and agree with you, when you've posed and re-posed the view that women in the past were heavily groomed in submerging their identity into their helping or into finding identity in being receptive or acted upon. Best to you.
Now
Where Does This Come From?
Submitted by kellyj on
edited: Continuing the thoughts that NON made in her last comment.
"the view that women in the past were heavily groomed in submerging their identity into their helping or into finding identity"
The first question I have to ask is? Who did this grooming? And where did that come from?
The second question I have to ask is? What women? Is this the current generations or from the distant past and how did this evolve into the state it is in currently? Even considering AD or BC?
Is this ALL women in history? Is this American women only? Is this only women who were groomed in this way and not others? [ whom or what? ] blank? Is this religious, cultural, familial or a world wide phenomenon?
I think these are all good questions tI might ask and find out more about myself since I really don't know this either?
And interesting thing I was just reading about in terms of communication and language and the difference between Americans that has to do with "small talk"? Apparently....."small talk" is not a universal phenomenon..and is a problem for people who come to the United States from other countries to get use to or get a handle on?
As it explained this. It said....for a person from Europe...if asked "How are you doing?"...or ....."How's it going?"....you will likely get...a very detailed full explanation...instead of ....."fine"....since this is not the "norm"....to ask a person such a thing....unless you really want to know a direct and straight forward answer that is actually related ...directly to the question of...."how are you?"....or better.....what is your current state of being? Perhaps?
As I heard that...it really made me think about this? Of course...without "small talk" or without having that as a cultural norm....then "How are you?" means, what is your current state of being?
Which according to the article...a person from another country...is likely to tell you because that is really what it's asking?
And in the interview of the Monty Python group about the movie Life of Brian.....John Cleese made an interesting observation about Americans...saying that Americans are preoccupied with "sex" and "sex" is such a component in religious views compared to Europe of England as they see it.....we have some severe "hang ups" over sex...compared to other countries and I would have to agree with that?
When you go to Europe...and see female "breasts" used on bill boards and in advertising...or go to a beach say....in "Niece" France...and see women's strolling around without their tops on ( like I did when I was there )...it takes you back as an American but seemingly is not big deal to them?
A funny story about a friend of mine who's wife is from Sweden? When she first came here to go to school and met my friend when they first started dating....he and a bunch of other people and couples decided to go to the beach for the day...and when they got there....H ( I will call her )...proceeded to change into her swim suit right there in the parking lot..with her breasts fully exposed?
And my friend said...all the women who were in the group....immediately came over to my friend and said.. "You've got to tell her she can't do that!! " All in a huff and all really excited and agitated because H...was standing there having a conversation with their boyfriends in the parking lot at the beach entrance...with her top off like it was no big deal?
And my friend said he went over to H..and told her she couldn't change into her suit in the parking lot and had to go into the restroom to do so...and H said..."Why?" LOL as her response? Clearly not understanding the reason for this...since she actually lived at the coast growing up in Sweden...and had done that all her life?
" What up with that? " As she might say? Which is what she has told me too....when we have laughed about this now and teased her in fun about that day, since I know her very well.
And she still rolls her eyes about this and just says...."Americans! You're all so up tight about sex!" Which from her perspective...we are? Take it of leave it but I think this is relevant...none the less?
So where does this come from and who did this grooming? That is still the question that I have no real answers to explain this myself coming from a mans perspective? How did we get here and has it always been this way?
J
Your post reminds me of the Garden J
Submitted by c ur self on
Who told you, that you were naked??
I've heard stories where a missionary moved into a jungle village of people...Who were close to naked...But, she never mentions their nakedness or condemns them in any way....So as she just loves and ministers to these people the strangest thing happens...Now these are people who basically had no conviction to cover themselves, (lived this way since birth) kind of like your Swedish friend...But as the people learn of and experience Christ, some would just come out the next morning w/ their whole bodies covered...And the missionary never said a word about it...So, who do you think told them they were naked??
A mystery right?
C
This is pretty weird, J.
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
If you wanted to know what I meant by those words, why didnt you ask me, instead of talking to Jenna about what I wrote? And by the way, I wrote it to her, attempting to summarize in a few words to her a large topic that as I remember, matters to her, on her own terms.
Bud, you just attempted to act upon.
Here you go
Studies of linguistic reports of event, and for that matter, of transactional analysis of relationships typically break an action into three basic part
--Agent, also called the actor
--Action. The action can be active, intiating something, or passive, for example, declining to do something. .
--What or who receives the impact of the action, whether it is active or passive. The recipient of the action either receives it directly or indirectly. The recipient of the action is acted upon by the active or passive action.
That's what I meant. Of course the meanings you choose for the words are yours.
...
Might Have Started on the Wrong Foot? oops again?
Submitted by kellyj on
Probably why that came of weird? Second attempt with a possible intro to what you said?
I actually was attempting to continue on from what you were saying in that....I think you are right..and I also agree with you as well? That was me....not doing a very good job at this with the obvious results? oops.
You initiated..and I followed. I get that from what you said? That was me acting upon if I am not mistaken....from the suggestion to Jenna....which I actually am wanting to understand this better as well? I really don't know exactly where this comes from or why but I do have some idea or thoughts on this directly related to what I have observed both in my own family..and with women in general but to say women in general...is where this starts to fall apart in my mind? That what I don't understand...and where I am wondering what the common thread in as far as women goes?
The example that came to mind with my friends wife from Sweden....really struck a cord with me in that...she's a woman too from a slightly different cultural background and yet her feelings on just the topic of "modesty" is so remarkably different...than the woman I have known too?
I could have also said...that men's identities seem to be tied to the careers and jobs or "what they do for a living" as means to define themselves and when men get fired or lose their jobs...their identity is lost or shaken as well? I do know where this comes from in men? But I am not going to assume anything here on women's accounts...because clearly...I am lost and have no idea there either?
I think what is weird is the fact....that all those answers that I am asked just off the top of my head, seem to been unknown....by me more than anything? That's what weird and that's what I don't understand? There is definitely a gap somewhere in between all of this.....that I keep falling into but really don't know why?
And as I am saying this...it is the same gap that I have never understood...even in my own family and with my own sisters who are my own flesh and blood you might say? And I was there ...grew up with them...and even too this day....will talk to each other with me in the same room with them as if I could not understand? Yet...as I heard them debate over an issue concerning our mother....one was sure of one thing that she felt it was...and my other sister was sure she knew or thought what this was...and I said....."I think ( mom ) had no idea who she was...if she could not serve someone? When ( dad ) died....she was lost with no one to serve?"
And they both looked at me...and one immediately looked at the other..and said "I think he's right?"
I picked up on that years ago? And yet my sisters were still trying to figure that one out...but when I said it....they both agreed but especially one of my sisters who more immediately recognized this?
How come this is so obvious to me? And why couldn't my sisters see that as obvious as well? But when I said it too them...they both looked at me like....."how did you know that?"
How do I know that? It just seemed extremely obvious to me..when I would go over to my moms house and she was looking for someone to serve and the second I walked in the door...I was doing my best...to make her stop? Not that hard to figure out...from my perspective since...I wasn't going over to my mothers house ( the one I grew up in ) to be served....I was going over there...to serve her and help her out...which is really what she needed since there were a number of things she needed help in after my father died...but every time I went over there...she kept trying to serve me instead?
That's weird to me? Why would she do that? And why would my sisters not think of this..or why is that not obvious to them when she was doing the same thing with them as well?
And why did it take me...to point that out to them?
NON.....I am so lost in this and I have no answers....all I have is questions...and it's all weird to me especially what I just explained...except for the obvious...which seemingly wasn't obvious....even with my own sisters? it was almost like....Duh you guys? Where were you during our childhood? I was there the same as you? Same family...same parents...same people all living together? What I am missing? Or rather...what are you missing? Someone's missing something here..and no one seems to know what it is? And if women can't tell me what the problem is for a woman...then who can you ask and get those answers from? A man? I don't think so?
I don't get it...and that's probably why I keep falling in the same hole since...there is no way I can understand this....unless a woman were to explain it to me but that seems to be the problem here...which the part I really don't understand? That's what's is weird to me...just so you know since I can't seem to get a consensus...even from women?
Do you know what this is and where it comes from outside of cultural, religious, or familial influences? That is....the biological difference...that makes this so in women? That is the million dollar question I have...that there is no way for me to know unless a woman can explain it...which seems to be a mystery to everyone...that no one has the answer for directly?
That's what's so weird....when it seems to obvious from the outside looking in using my own sisters and my mother....in this example I gave? I'm taking ADHD out of the equation here... because this is obvious as man as the observer here...with women in a more general way that I don't think is related to ADHD at all...but I think is the same for those who have it as well? Just the observational view from my perspective?
The source....and or why that is? I haven't the foggiest unless a woman can tell me?
J
NowOrNever, Thanks
Submitted by jennalemone on
Thanks for recognizing what I lay out here in this site as my experiences. I said in another post that watching the movie "The Butler" explains how human beings come to be servants. There must be movies where it is shown the demoralizing undertones of how women come to lose themselves in becoming servants to their families and to the community. Anyone see one lately?
Bring the coffee, will you honey?
Submitted by jennalemone on
Here are some more ways in my life where I was taught "my place".
I asked for a raise after working corporate for 5 years, My boss responded, "Who do you think your are:" and was angry at me for asking.
The only woman working as any sort of managerial position in corporate where I worked had Masters degree in marketing. She got a plant (flowers) on secretary's day. Other men who worked less time with less education and experience were rewarded with promotions.....not her. she was the brightest person in the department. But she was pretty....the men didn't want to include her in their "lunch out of the office - or golf, or a drink or whatever" because wives would have been jealous if they were aware.
I could go on and on. At the time, I didn't feel excluded because that is just the way things were. These things were acceptable and understood. I was just happy to have been able to have the job I had as an art director in a corporation. Watch the series on Netflix "Madmen" to see how the man/woman thing played out in marketing department in corporate America. That really is EXACTLY how it was. Sex played/plays a role in how people are viewed as capable or valuable.
And remember, all us women who were working full time (as staff, that meant minimum 8 hrs....but more often through lunch and 10 hour days with a commute) AND ALSO we were still doing the laundry, shopping, cooking, kid caretaking when we got home and on weekends. It was not heard of that a man would do his own laundry or cook. The men on the TV shows showed us that men only did outdoor work....mowing the grass in the summer and shoveling in the winter. Women felt that they were nags and bitches if they asked hubbies to do "women's work". "women's work" was beneath the dignity of a husband.
Sorry, just letting off some steam with the truth. I understand that on the coasts and maybe some even the Midwest and South, things have changed in the boardroom to a certain degree.....but old attitudes die hard and are still lingering in the hearts and minds of men...and us women too.
It's like any other prejudice Jenna...It's fear driven....
Submitted by c ur self on
I guess because I grew up w/ out a Dad in the home, (hard) and my Mom worked so hard on her job and in our home...I have a different view of it....Also I can't find anywhere in God's word where I am better than my wife. (either of the two I have been blessed with).....
If a husband or wife truly loves (and has a correct understanding of what eternal committed love is and is not) their spouse...They will come along side them and be in agreement in a unified way...(put legs on it)...Stereotyping people happens for many reason's (fear, pier pressure, ignorance, believing a lie, laziness etc...etc..) but it's blatant disrespect...
I learned along time ago to not believe what I see in this world as "the correct path to follow"...and more importantly make sure I don't take on any personal anxiety thinking or wishing a fallen world will ever get it right as a whole...Instead, I ask myself; "What does God (creator and sustainer of all heaven and earth, lover and securer of my eternal soul, Omni, present, and no shadow of turning) say about it"??
I'm not professing or claiming I am able to always bear the truth of a thing... But, I have come to understand in his time he will revel it to me, (if my heart is pure in Christ) and I can trust that.....
I have no doubt you have experienced (like many many others for one reason or another) plenty of discrimination, just because you were born into this world female...But it's not who you are in the eye's of your creator!
You were wonderfully and marvelously made, he knitted you in your mothers womb to his most glorious specifications...There is no one like you, you are unique! His love for you is eternal!!!
We have to look deeper than this fallen world to get our identities....
Blessings Friend!
C
C, This has a similar message and feeling
Submitted by jennalemone on
Thanks, C. Here is another example of what we know but what we need to be reminded of:
http://my1017.iheart.com/onair/scott-glaser-55584/couple-gets-offended-w...
Thanks Jenna...
Submitted by c ur self on
Thank you for this sweet dose of reality Jen...I cleared my eyes and forwarded it to my grown Step Son's who grew up as I did, w/out a loving Father's influence in there lives and in the home....
C
Master Class C
Submitted by kellyj on
C , coming from a mans point of view here, I want to stay on the "theme"....of service and try and apply that differently than how you or others have taken that word to mean? And to sum up what I was saying in terms of this kind of service.....that to serve our inherent nature as given to us by God....then in Gods plan for us....we are fulfilling in need for us to do? If we take our God given talents that were handed us by him, and use the strength within our God given talents...one might say we are serving God...in his need for us to do...given to us by him? Simply put. Pretty easy concept to understand if you can see it that way?
"I reject your reality....and substitute my own." One of my favorite quotes from the show "Myth Busters". If you take that statement..and apply it to the theme of service here...I think this gets closer to understanding the different realities that people have in their minds? And i terms of men and women and the realities that they experience in the real world and even in the concept of "job descriptions" or "jobs"...in terms of a relationship between a man and a woman....or a father and his son? Or...a mother and her daughter or...and man and a man....or....a woman and a woman...and you try and substitute each individuals "reality"....into another one...and think you are being "understood"? This is not possible...and only leads to conflict?
Keeping within the theme of "service".....you need to understand the "reality" in which it's being applied including the one I just mentioned in terms of the idea or concept of being "in service of God"...based on each individuals God given talents and strengths....which are widely variable from person to person and not dependent on gender per se? To classify or categorized ALL women...and ALL men as being one in the same here...is a fallacy of monumental proportions in making that assumption?
You yourself...mentioned not having a father or a relationship like this in your own life so to say you are the same as I am just because you are a man...is a false statement. My reality is totally different than your's having a father growing up..and regardless of the good or bad I might have mentioned from this....my reality with a father and that experience...is totally different than your's? Just because were men....does not give either one of us...each others experience and the same reality to work from because something was missing in your's compared to mine? If I were to try to substitute my reality for yours...or to reject that fact that you didn't have a father in the same way I did.....I would be in denial of the fact...that your reality is different than mine and therefore....not be able to understand each other if that is how I were to approach you? Clearly...the video that you watched made it's mark on you in a way that you can totally relate to with the experience and reality that you have in your own understanding of this?
But does that mean...I am without the ability to understand...even without the same reality as you... being a man who had a father growing up? I really believe...that this is where...the basis of misunderstanding comes from..and why we fail to do this in our daily life's with other people but especially between our spouses and us and this is always a two way street? This is not a gender issue....it's a reality issue and not understanding who's reality you are basing things on...depending on who you are talking too?
I can easily say...that a man...who is using his reality..and trying to use that to talk to a woman...there will be a clear and easy ( and quite obvious ) difference in perspective? Obviously!!!
I can easily say...that a woman..who is trying to use her reality..and trying to use that to talk to a man...there will be a clear and easy ( and quite obvious ) difference in perspective? Obviously!!!
I can easily say...that a man with ADHD..who is trying to use his reality. and trying to use that to talk to (Anyone)...there will be a clear and easy ( and quite obvious ) difference in perspective? Obviously!!!
I can easily say...that is a woman with ADHD...who is trying to use her reality..and trying to use that to talk to ( Anyone )...there will be a clear and easy ( and quite obvious ) difference in perspective? Obviously!!!
Obviously...there are 4 different realities in these 4 different scenarios...and that is just the tip of the ice berg.....when you start to include the very things you have said here as well.... with yourself compared to me? And the same things will apply to anyone....no matter which gender you are?
Quite simply...if you do not even have the this basic concept down, in your own understanding about people in general..and how they are different and why they are different...you will totally not be getting the point..and not getting why there is conflict between two opposing realities with two people? And when that happens...the relationship becomes adversarial in nature due to trying to defend ones own position and reality?
Assuming people in general...will just simply understand this on their own...or making the wrong assumption that your reality is the same as anyone else's and not considering these contingencies or the factors involved...is a failure in communication, and a failure on each one of us....in our own understanding ourselves, compared to anyone else at any given time? Any time....you "reject another person reality...and try and substitute your own".....or are trying to defend your own reality, in service of yourself without considering all the variables involved....you are now entering the "ring"...and the relationship becomes adversarial right from the get go from this failure on our parts...without this kind of consideration in place along with this understanding in order to "compensate" for these differences.
C..without a lot of good examples from my own father in many respects...I was left without a means to learn things from him that he was not able to teach me? But taking from what my own father did teach me in respect to joining him in one of his favorite pass times....in watching boxing with him together? If you choose to...you can learn a great deal from watching any relationship between two people...and boxing is one art form....that many do not appreciate due to it's violent nature...albeit....without realizing the lessons that can be learned from it? If you want to study an adversarial relationship...and watch it performed by a Master and learn the art of offense and defense in this type of adversarial relationship....I really feeling that understanding the art of a person...born into conflict....and who has made an identity with pain and suffering.....that many thing cam be learned from watching a Master at his craft....in order to understand the nature of conflict ...is in being defensive?
IMHO....the greatest defensive boxer who ever lived...was Muhammad Ali. Most who have never given this a second thought..or would even care to could learn a thing or two from the Master himself? Many might assume that his secret was due to his offensive abilities in the ring. A Master Class boxer and the best who ever lived or did what he did better than anyone was Muhammad Ali IMHO?
His secret weapon....was defense....not offense....which is why he became the "Greatest of All Time"...and was a true Master at what he did? Probably better than anyone else in the world of boxing, which I feel.....we can all learn from if you study how he did it....and take a Master Class lesson from the greatest of all time?
When confronted with a person who has made an identity from pain and suffering....they will be both...offensive...and defensive will have learned the Art of defensiveness as used as their weapon of choice? If you have no skills....in being either offensive or defensive...then you will be "in the ring"...and not even realize it....which is the first step in recognizing....what reality you are in?
If you don't want to be in this reality to begin with....it would be best not to step into the ring....with a person who lives there....just for a start? I think once you can understand the theme of "how to best serve anyone"....then you need to understand their reality first ( instead of tying to substitute your own an assuming they will understand you? )
Not understanding that first...and not understanding that if you reject their reality and try and substitute your own into it...is what leads to failure and puts you right into the middle of it....before you will ever reach any understanding between you and them? I believe....that it is this failure and assuming that your reality is the only one....is what makes for adversarial relationships...and puts you right inside the "ring" without even knowing that you are?
Master Class: Poetry in Motion https://youtu.be/diYdVlb2j8w
https://youtu.be/0rI6pZDJOVc
J
Lots of truth in this J.....
Submitted by c ur self on
I really Love what you say here J about different realties call for different needs when serving...And substituting your reality for theirs....This truth took me years to learn, and I selfishly fail at it many times, due to wanting what I want...Period...
We cry right and wrong if we want to, and some times that applies and sometimes the reality of the person we (step into the ring with) are trying to serve is beyond us (can't understand) or we just don't agree with their life style flat out...Or we lack empathy for the real internal sufferings (we all posse to some degree in my humble opinion) that our partners may battle on a daily basis....(which isn't always visible, so sadly, we assume their struggles (behaviors) was or is ALWAYS CHOICES (which just ain't so) instead of something permanently fixed, which manifests itself sporadically....It's a cycle! Not chosen much of the time, but, a cycle non the less....We all have them in my humble opinion, some just more intrusive than others....
Acceptance of reality! Mine and Theirs....Allows for walking away and limiting the conflict when we are speaking different languages and desperation starts setting in.....I'm OK...You OK...Yes, Yes...Bye! Bye!
Denial is the only complete killer! (makes it impossible to work through) again, in my humble opinion....
C
Denial is a Killer For Sure C
Submitted by kellyj on
And in what I was saying about defensiveness...or rather, defense mechanisms? Who or what are we really fighting against here? Our spouses....or the defense mechanisms themselves? I won't keep you guessing here for anyone else reading this.....it's the defense mechanisms?
And what I said about....making an identity with pain and suffering? That would be a victim if that is that persons identity or how they operate from? And thing that keeps you stuck in that identity is adopting those defense mechanisms as a way of life and they become an engrained way of being? Yank those puppies away from a person who has built a strategy for their life around them....and you've got a total collapse of the system in which they operate which might as well be a total and complete malfunction in ability to get anything for themselves in what they think they need?
In reality that most people live in......this is totally not true..and not even close to what it could be....if they were to drop the defensiveness and drop the victim mentality that perpetuates it?
I'm talking about myself by the way....in the past....until I finally realized everything I just said is absolutely true. Everything that I am discovering now....is only finding my way in a different or new way of doing things which is what you are trying to avoid.....all the time before that happened? The amount of energy it takes to keep that up ( before ) is staggering. And the amount of lost time and energy you could have been using for something else? I don't even like thinking about it but that it in the past for me.....and not what I am doing now?
The problem with this from my point of view....is having to give up something to get there...and with the "immediately gratification world we live in today?" The perfect example of this....is our new Fearless Leader? He is the embodiment...of immediate gratification and "I want it NOW". I shudder to think about it? I am hoping that after he tries to apply this to running our country....there will be a total collapse of our entire cultural way of being to the point....that he will ( he's bound to....he's a Narc. He "Has to Do It!!!"...and there is no way he won't ....Do It. What ever IT is...he Has To Do? )
Predictability is the Hall Mark of said...."personality types"...and you can count on it. He has to!!!! If he actually gets caught that is? If he does.....he'll be impeached? Yikes! Now what? LOL Good old what's his name ( I can't even remember who that is quite frankly? His name that is? ) How could he get a word in edge wise during the campaign...with his campaign running mate that is? LOL I see this blurry image of a guy with a suit and tie...and that's about it? LOL
Or what will happen if "The Donald"...goes on a binger with the female staff members in the white house basement and slips and hits his head on the bathroom floor and his wife has to take over ( secretively )....like Nancy Reagan did or Franklin Roosevelt's wife Eleanor did when he became too sick to run the country? Yikes!!!
"Putin Darling....you're so impetuous. Here let me hand to phone over to someone who can talk to you. Hello!!!...Can anyone help me....I've got the Kremlin on the line and I've got a dinner engagement in 15 minutes!! " LOL Yet I digress. lol
Seriously....immediate gratification..and an unwillingness to wait for anything...is what I feel is the bugger in our McDonald's way of life? Mc....Donald. Get it? LOL
Anyway...if anything like this actually happens....then maybe our country will wake up from it's own denial...and be forced to make some changes which might mean....doing without for a while..or giving up something? That is.....if Ivana doesn't answer the phone and piss the wrong people off? LOL I think they both were better suited to their parts in "Wrestlemania IV" in my humble opinion? lol
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0252101/mediaviewer/rm1158061824
J
J, The perfect example of how we learn to BE in a culture
Submitted by jennalemone on
I just watched "The Butler". The entire movie shows EXACTLY how it goes that a person (male or female) comes to believe and act like a humble, giving, servant. To SURVIVE in that culture and situation. Please watch it. It's on Netflix right now. Your mom (and me) was doing what she had to do to survive. There was not a better option than the way she did it. There were no legal recourses (divorce for a woman means poverty in many cases - especially when the children always went with the mom and there were multiple children). It was said in the old days that people stayed together "for the sake of the children". But I have often thought that a woman stayed because of the children. How could a woman afford a car, rent, electricity, food and clothing for kids when by herself if she was married to a man who would walk off by himself with "alimony" which does not exists anymore, or with the promise of alimony...which if there wasn't much, or the man was not a responsible man, she could not depend on. Also, it was considered a shame if you were divorced and you were called names if you were a divorced woman but not a name if you were a divorced man.
Your mother SURVIVED the best she could for the times and culture. If there was religion in the home, there was also the commandment and SIN was a consideration, so there was that, hell thing to be counted on. Remember, I was commanded on my wedding day to OBEY my husband, and I took promises in church very seriously in those days. Some of our upbringing still hangs in our souls from the way the people in charge of us molded us to think, believe and behave how they want. Right or wrong.
The movie, The Butler, was so excellent. I can't believe I hadn't seen it before. Totally engrossing!
I'll Watch It Jenna
Submitted by kellyj on
I also wanted to say that the example you gave in asking for a raise? I saw it ...big time, with last employer? He came right out and said it exactly this way and he was taking on that old school attitude and stated it outright.
"He's got a wife and kids at home ...he needs the extra money to support them.....you don't."
As said to a woman who had been there longer than any other employee there. When she had a baby of her own...and left on maternity leave...when she came back..she requested part time hours to try fit being a new mother and work into her schedule? He allowed it at first.....then he came to her and wanted to cut her hourly wage by $10 an hour less than before...saying if she is only working part time...she shouldn't get full time salary? The problem with that thinking was...she was one of the highest producing sales people on the staff only second to a man who had been there a year less than her? He got a raise....and she quit and left and went to work for his competitor who he hated with a passion.
He claimed she did that to spite him.....because she wanted to ruin his business which is exactly what he would tell the customers she had who came looking for ...and told them "she couldn't handle the work load."
She heard about that through the same customers who followed her to the new store where she worked and came in personally and told him if he didn't stop telling people things that weren't true...she would hire a lawyer and sue him for liable damages if she could prove it cost her any money damages or to her credibility and her reputation. He stopped saying things like that...but would tell her customers who came in looking for her....that he didn't know where she was working?
This is archaic thinking in my mind...but he was from that generation..and he felt perfectly justified in his way of thinking about this? I was there...and heard him say these things first hand myself and this is not hear say...or passed along through the grape vine so I have no problem saying it here..just so you know.
J