As some of you know, my extended family relations are strained.
One thing I struggle with is how to manage holidays and special days. Coming up are a parent’s birthday and Midsummer’s Eve (a day of general celebration here).
Since the parent doesn’t host anything for their birthday it’s up to me to acknowledge the date in some way. It’s the weekend and I’ll be working, so there’s not much I can do but make a phone call and deliver a gift some other day (they live 2 hours away). But I still dread this date and have for years.
The days before Midsummer, the kids will be staying with their grandparents. Kids say they want to spend the holiday there too. I dread this day, intensely. Parents say the kids and I are welcome when I asked on behalf of the kids, but there’s no invitation. I know that means it’s on me to arrange some kind of celebration at their house. It needs to suit their chaotic yet very specific requirements and not test their non-existing planning skills. The celebration also needs to include an open invitation to adult siblings (siblings have been taught to come unannounced whenever they feel like it). This is the ‘freedom to do as one pleases’ that my family of origin cherishes above all else. It doesn’t mean freedom for me.
I seem to have two options. Either I go there with the responsibility of having invited the four of us myself, and try to be generous and energetic but not overcompensate or have negative emotions, since that would ruin everybody’s day. And if I do have any negative emotions (since I’m hypersensitive after decades of trying to do this kind of hosting with all responsibility and no power), I need to not make a fuss but immediately drive the two hours home, alone.
Or I could spend the holiday alone at home.
Dear other partners and children of passive and rigid neurodiversity who’ve broken yourselves trying. What do you do?
Comments
exhausting
I’m so sorry; that sounds utterly exhausting. It also sounds like my ex’s family.
It always seems to be the one carrying the most who’s then expected to do more. It’s deeply unfair and negotiation certainly seems to be impossible.
I am so sorry.
Is there a third option? You do something else with friends? Or with kids? Or with friends and kids? Are there social groups you could join who’d give you some of what you crave and not expect you to carry all the executive load?
where I live, for eg, there are women’s groups meet for outdoor activities like wild swimming, hiking, trial running. Could you just take yourself out of the equation and go swim in a waterfall (or whatever nature offers you round there) instead ?
Wild swimming lol
This hit my funny bone really hard ! Until I read after, what you actually meant by it which actually sounds fun! One of my favorite things is to find natural hots springs ( non commercialized...no structures built ) and go soak. I have several mapped put to explore...as we speak.
two nations separated by a common language!
Yeah here in the UK it’s not crazy freestyle or anything like that - just swimming in nature rather than in a man made pool. Some things don’t immediately translate! Also we don’t have hot springs. The best we have is tepid. Which maybe explains the national character.
Lol
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Thank you Honestly
So kind of you.
Last year kids and I celebrated with a divorced friend and her kids. It was nice, but both she and I were grieving, and both of us ended up rather shaken at the end of the day. Holidays tend to bring these emotions forward.
I think your suggestion of leaving the kids for their grandparents and see if any of my friends are free to see only me, would be the best option. That could be a good day for everyone.
I don’t know if you recognize this, but I have a constant feeling I’m alone responsible for making grandparents see kids. Grandparents never initiate anything, and would fiercely deny they expect anything. So instead I have to navigate on the soft sighs of their disappointment.
Letting them have kids for Midsummer’s Eve could be an act of generosity. Or else asking them a favor which there will be reminders of later. But I’ll never know until afterwards.
So grateful for this community.
Structure vs Symbolic Reasoming and Thinking
One thing that I did more recently, in figuring myself out, was to go back and understand why I did so terribly in math in school. I'm not a natural with computers or programming either. I'd make a bad IT Tech that has to figure trouble shoot programs and computers (drives me nuts sometimes ) I find word math problems especially exasperating! Sometimes, I just give up trying it's so difficult. Probability and Statistics was a nightmare class in college, a requirement for my degree. I was happy to receive a C. Bottom, numbers and "x's" and "0" is are not my thing. At all !!
*I promise I'm going somewhere with this. It's actually related.
But that doesn't mean I can't learn these things because I can. Except for those word problems. I was bad as a kid, and I'm still bad with them now. Terrible in fact.
But something clued me in, in my own experience in college. I HAD TO take math to get my degree so I took an Algebra refresher course first...before, I tried math again.
In school, it was a demand that I get B's or higher. C's were not acceptable. So my nemesis was math. I could get B's at least in everything else....but my last math class in high school was a D in geometry. I came home and before my parents found out, and told them I quit!! I refused to take any math classes and I said it with so much conviction and authority that my parents actually backed down. I took to English classes per term instead as a compromise.
So here's the punch line. I took 3 years of high school Algebra over again in 1 term of college Algebra. I received straight A's in every test, quiz of homework assignment that was handed me. 90% or better on every single test and of course, got an A . What happened? How did I go from a D....to an A ? The only A I'd ever recevied in math ever? Something changed...and it was the math??
This may sound strange...but I treated Algebra like the game of Basketball. I treated it just a game with rules. Just follow the rules of the game....and I won!
So as a teacher for myself ...sending home a note it would read:
"J may not learn abstract symbolic systems well through intuitive instruction, but can become strong when the system becomes procedural, rule-based, and embodied."
That's me. I struggle with abstract symbols or Symbolic reasoning. These traditions and their meaning hold a different meaning for me that other people. Clearly, the way math was being taught in school wasn't working...but that changed dramatically when I approached it like Basketball and a game of rules. Straight A's is pretty dramatic?
So these meaningless math symbols are just floating around in outer space until you put some kind of structure around it, than I totally get it. It's actually easy to understand.
This doesn't answer the problem your having Swedish I know, but these traditional events and their meanings stop becoming enjoyable to me, if poeple must perform them as a ritual. It becomes robotic and stiff ( wooden ) and they can lose all enjoyment for me sometimes, if they become too tied to ritual and less about having fun. If they're never any fun, and only robotic ritual, then after a while ( too many ) they lose their appeal. Turning math into a game suddenly changed everything for me. It was no longer drudgery that I hated and became a fun challenge i like a puzzle or game.
I use to hold parties regularly and they ended up being a great success. I'd buy some potato chips ...throw them in bowl, buy a keg of beer, throw it in a garbage can with ice packe around it....put cups on the counter...turn on some loud music...and open the door. Lol There were no times, invitations, or structure. Just word of mouth...party at J's. Here in the states...they call that a "house party". I'd just provide the location and beer...and let he wild rumpus begin ! I mean to say...these were some fun times a few ( if any ) people didn't enjoy themselves. And the kitchen for whatever reason seemed to be where poeple would mingle most.
I'm using this as a reference only, I'm not suggesting a " kegger". But, my parties were always good ones. Poeple kept coming back over and over. And I did hardly anything. Potato chips in a metal mixing bowl. That was it. And these were NOT, a bunch of guys by any means. It was a very good mixture or people in all shapes and sizes. That's what made them fun and interesting. They using contained a diverse misfire too. All I know is, people had fun but more importantly...I did too! There was nothing robotic or ritualized about these gathering which is my point in saying this.
I have to I include a short story here because of your Swedish Heritage.
One of my best friends married a woman from Sweden. He met her here, as an exchange student, so she was full on Swedish! Accent and all. She's a very lovely person and I enjoy her personality.
Anyway, when she moved here, she was highly offended at one thing she saw. This really grated on her everytime she drive by. It was a restaurant, actually, one of those super affordable all you can eat serve yourself buffets. The name of the place was "Smorga Bob's " ( derived from Smorgasbord ) and she'd see this and do a face palm and shake her head. It's was hilarious to hear here go on and on at how terrible this was turn the very Swedish tradition and reduce down to a cheap all you can eat buffet that contained zero Swedish food! Lol It cracks me up just thinking about it. She almost beside herself that her tradition was being trashed by a guy named Bob.
That’s funny!
Thank you J for thinking with me.
I enjoy the story of the Swedish lady and Bob!
You’re so right, J. Having people over is great. It’s not supposed to exhaust the host. Only make guests relax, because they don’t need to be responsible for whatever you’ve prepared. That’s the point of hosting.
The problem is hosting at somebody else’s house, if they want you to represent their intricate preferences perfectly, but are incapable of giving instructions. That’s asking a lot of what is essentially a guest.
The potato chip bowl, on the other hand, is the perfect way to make guests relax.
I think your feral thinking captures essential things about life, J.
stuff I have been processing
So I’m out of the ADHD Relationship now for over a year and in that time I have come to the realisation that he is also (and I know this is boring and obvious but that doesn’t make it any less true) a straightup narcissist. Perfected outward self, horrifying other that emerged in the privacy of our relationship.And I’ve also come to understand that I have my own need to be ‘unassailable’ - hyper aware of my imperfections (real and fictional- the narcissistic parenting and partner helped with that), but anticipating all criticism and constantly acting (and boy is this exhausting ) to avert it. Soooooo. I’m wondering if you, maybe, Swedish, are yourself trying to appease, avert, avoid criticism from not just neurodivese but possibly personality disordered others? There is a sense from what you write that you know you can never please them; what if you accept that and just stop trying? What might that look like?
just an idea X
That’s a good thought, Honestly
I’m afraid you’re right. Like you I seem to forever try to avoid criticism from difficult people (especially parents, even co-workers). It’s clear they will never accept my needs or emotions, no matter how much I do to meet theirs.
Also I’ve internalized their demands. I no longer know what standards are mine. My ex complicated this. He originally was a breath of fresh air, much more relaxed than my high-achieving family and with other priorities. I was impressed with his social skills and learned to be more like him. Unfortunately his (undeniable) skills came from an unhealthy childhood where he needed to calm his raging ADHD and bipolar parents, respectively. He people pleased and hid true emotions, which I didn’t understand until the very end of our marriage. A lot of his behavior was essentially lying.
So now I’m not comfortable with my low effort, rigid, high integrity relatives, but the codependent quality of the marriage feels completely wrong, too.
What would letting go of being accepted look like? So far it means not seeing or talking to ex husband or his family. Not seeing family very much. Calling them less often. Declining suggestions from a sibling and then not getting back to them. Not going to parents’ house anymore. Avoiding holidays with them. Not opening up emotionally. Essentially closing the open wound my dependence on them has been.
And at work: accepting my boss lets the bully colleague ruin the workplace and stress me out. Accepting boss doesn’t like me, or I her, but that she needs me for my skills and therefore still gives me a raise. Not trying to be friendly to the bully.
The common factor with these dysfunctional people is me being humiliated. It feels like they have been deprecating me for ages for no apparent reason.
The terrible weakness brought upon me by ADD ex is the only relevant reason I can think of. I was desperate. They humiliated me simply because they could.
Swedish , I Can't Say Enough...
here to let you know how much I understand so many things contained in what you just said. And because it's in my nature to say a lot, I'll try to say it from both, my ferel Adult ( Tarzan, the Noble Savage ) and my ferel child self in order to tell my story. I concluded, I can't tell the moral to the story unless I tell it?? Go figure? And to be completely open and honest, I'm struggling again myself and trying to resolve these feelings. And this is a really delicate subject so I don't want to offend anyone. Best to stick with these archetypes as a means for me convey how I'm feeling. It's the only way I know how? I think there's some real similarities in how we're feeling about our own personal situations. I have to revisit some things I've said in the past, but only in a mean to catch up to where I am currently? If that makes sense ?
The only difference it seems, between you and myself, is you appear unsure and I'm not unsure at all. I know exactly what I'm feeling and why? This has more to do my own resolution, with things that have already happened and my ability to put it to rest however, there IS something currently happening which makes this harder for "me" to do. It's why I'm struggling. "Me" being the Noble Savage and that Savage part, the shadow, is NOT getting the better of me, but my desire to go back....not for revenge, but more, giving someone I highly disrespect off the hook. I've already done that part, and while it was happening, I was being a gracious host out of respect for X. I don't regret my behavior at all, I behaved as a gracious host to a guest I had never even met before. So there's nothing to resolve there.
What this involves is the emotional cheating I experienced with X. And I basically called her out on it and she gaslighted me like crazy. Calling me pocessive, inferring I was a certain "type" ( using that word not saying what "type" I was ? ) of person. While, at that very same time....I was trying to tell "Her" what type of person this stranger to me was. That was the problem from that very moment. I knew who this guy was as an archetypal character. These aren't diagnosis's as much as just parts of human nature. "Our" nature including mine of course. This is precisely what I'm struggling with, and why I'm having this urge to go back and tell X....even now, for her own protection. I already know of course...doing nothing is exactly what I should keep doing. That doesn't help my feelings however, and my darker urges or skills in this one particular area. This is the part ...or partial part of the story I've said before. I can recall most of it but I'll just recap to bring it all forward.
And the reason for even doing this...again, is to spot these characters right now, in the general public. This all ties together in my own self awareness and being prepared or ...less naive. In this particular case tho, nativity has nothing to do with it.
This also relates to being passive. I can be passive, until I'm called to action and this is where I have skills....which are less than desirable unless you're cornered with no way out. I realized....these skills I have come from specific training and experience ( both ) which ties into directly to this "special friend" guy who showed up at my doorstep and I invited him gracially into my home. We call these lessons too, and my ability to deal with them. In this case, my ability is HIGH ! Another part of this dilemna as I wish I could go back, because things would be different...yet that's a fantasy...because I did exactly as I should have done. These replays only tell me about myself and the people involved.
So in retrospect, the thing I wish I could tell my X for her own protection, is who her "special friend" really is. I know exactly who he is, because I had to deal with "his type" before...many times in fact...as part of my job.
On social media, this guy ( the Jackel ) makes tons of posts of himself, spending all his time at local music shows ( rock music shows ) as a "promoter" type ( self appointed ), used car saleman energy, everybodys friend....the "Sham Wow" guy who sells towels on late night advertising.
In fact, that's my nickname for him "The Sham Wow" guy. Actually, the "Scam Wow" guy is closer to it. Both fit him perfectly...I'll just refer to him as his nickname "Sham Wow" for now.
Here's my problem. I got a job in college working at a large rock concert / sports / any type of entertainment you can think of...venue, that held 10,000 poeple at time. So in essence....I was exposed to this 10,000 person microcosm contained inside these walls and I was exposed to every kind of person imaginable. And I one job, clearly stated: protect the public from harm either: broken bottles and glass, flying objects, smoking inside the venue * although an extremely low risk in a structure made of concrete...still, it was fire code laws .That was my job description. But that's not exactly what I did in reality. Our T-Shirts said "Crowd Control" but what we really were...were bouncers too. When called upon which wasn't often. They use to post, how many people were thrown out per 10,000 each night so I have a really good feel for those percentages. Normally, maybe 20, on a busy night. 30+ out of 10,000 maybe 40 tops. So those people had to have been asked multiple times to desist in their behavior before they got "existed" from the premises. This was the "skill" I was actually very good at doing, and I did it a number of times, with guys WAY bigger than myself. I have no fear with these people...they don't scare me which is why I could do this with confidence. That's a big part of my issue now. The "Sham Wow" guy isn't the ones we booted out ( when I say "booted " ) we'd do trained holds and tactics in the removal of these characters. I was in peak condition at the time as well.
So to make in distinction, we weren't the police. We weren't there to stop law breakers...we were the "Enforcers" or "Garbage Men". Using that archetype again...that's what we did and if someone repeatedly wouldn't stop doing one of these very few things...we had power of attorney, judge and executioner to throw the "garbage" out. This is only for reference... they were NOT garbage. as people.
So, my problem now exists, because I know exactly who this "special friend" is. I sat and watch these guys all the time, so well, we could pick them put of a crowd with ease. Our job wasn't to arrest them, stop them, or doing anything to them. We just sat ( because "we" ...my partner and I for the night ) just sat and observed them work and make commentary between ourselves. Openly talking about them and calling them names. Names like: "bag man", "low life", "POS", "low level drug dealers", "erand boy"...the list goes on. And again, we'd just sit and watch, it wasn't our job to do to anything to these poeple even if what we saw was illegal. That's wasn't our job, not what we got paid to do.
And to be completely open and honest, what happened as a part of this "evening" with Xs "special friend" contained something that I haven't mentioned.
When, the topic of Mushrooms appeared ( not by me ) ...suddenly, Sham Wow goes put o his bike ( yes, he rode too....also a source of identification for me ) and comes back inside with a small carry bag, and inside this bag is enough assortment of drugs ( including a large bag of Mushrooms ) he produces and say "here, take as many as you like " ...I'm going, okay, don't mind of I do...but inside I'm going...."I see you, I know who you are".
That's who Sham Wow is. He goes to concert or rock concert venues and sells to these people. He's like, the low, low man on the totem pole...bottom of the barrel, probably supplying his own habit, to support some kind of drug addiction. Most likely as I've personally observed. And he even talks about his own son on social media, battling drug addiction.
Gee, I wonder where that came from?
But back to my problem. This entire "special friend" .."Sham Wow" guy is none of my concern anymore. X gets to choose who she wants to be with, or even, someone who gives her validation and admiration which clearly he does. And she even admitted" well, I guess I stroked his ego" after pur initial conflict. A partial admission of truth. And my problem, where my contempt exists is with a person of type....coming into my house, popping off his big mouth, and treating me like I'm some kind of idiot who can't see him for who he is. Like I said...."I see you...I know exactly who you are" and I dealt with these people...dear lord ...it's not my first time at the rodeo!".
And I even called him a predator to my Xs face...and goes " I don't think so."
Thats the problem. She doesn't think he is....and I'm wanting to extricate him from the building as I wanted to before. In that way, with extreme contempt and loathing. She's saying back then " your just jealous " bwahaha!! What a laugh. She couldn't tell the difference between jealously and wanting to do my job, as the "garbage man" again. And the thing is, this guy is actually bigger than I am...he actually had the nerve to call me a "pussy" about not talking a certain drug in the way he did.
I cannot tell you how much I'm struggling with this to resolve it. It's not about being called a "pussy" which I've been called way worse before. In sports, this happens all the time but these are people I respect. It's not about the name...it's what he was doing or talking about at the time. And my particular "loathing " for guys like this is what's getting in my way. My wanting to go back and stop being the "gracious host" and then the playing field would be equal. I have absolutely no doubt in my mind what the outcome would be. The problem with guys like this is, they can't handle pain. If it got down to it....it's not the person who hits harder or does more damage...it's the one who goes down and comes back up to do it again. The person who can't withstand more pain, is usually the one who comes out on top.
I'm not saying for a moment, that I would do anything like this. I want nothing to do with this "Sham Wow" guy....the problem is for my X....she can't seem him. All urges or desires aside. I don't punish anyone, or act like the "enforcer" I was paid to do. I want nothing to do with this guy, I wouldn't even give him the time of day if he asked me on the street. As I'd do the same right now ongoing. That's how I deal with these characters...
It's the fact that X is still giving him the time of day plus, still actively involved with him, at least, the same as before is really difficult for me not to say something and let her know, what I see. But I tried that once and it was a disaster. I'd be doing for her protection now ( not mine ) ...but that's not my job...the same as it was before. I just have to sit back and allow it to happen right in front of my face so to speak.
I dont know if you feel any of these things Swedish, but something in what you said tells me thats possible? IDK? You tell me?
Saying it here at least, helps get it off my chest.
Sorry, J
I think you’re telling about an experience of extending yourself too far for someone and feeling humiliated? But sorry, I think I lost your train of thought a little?
Feeling Humilated
Was from the feeling you know better, but did something anyway. In this case, the entire situation felt humiliating because I feel I could have have stopped it, but missed my chance.
It's that feeling like you want a do over, to do it differently, but in this case, it's even more conflicted than that. I was feeling like, what I would normally do under any other circumstances ( like back in those crowd control days )...where I know/knew exactly what to do, but was helpless to do anything about it, even knowing what I do.
Honestly, what I think or believe is true....
That X most likely did not "cheat" on me physically speaking with anyone. I can't 100% be sure, but my intuition tells me this is true. X is not a intentionally malicious person nor do I think, she actually was physically betraying me. She's not a bad person. I trust my ability to tell me that she's not and my decision or choice I made was based on my ability to judge if she is/was.
But I also know as fact, because she told me so up front, that this special friend guy off social media, was someone she was attracted to and admired. She also "stroked his ego" which I inferred she means she flattered him, made him feel special and gave him "hope" he might have a chance with her. This kind of flirting and ego stroking she was doing to get validation in return for his praise for her. As a confident, where she talked to him about me. I'm saying, this happened before me and so this kind of exchanged between the two of them had already taken place.
So even if she wasn't having sex ( per se ) there was still this element of romance going on....and she never did anything to stop it. She didn't draw any boundaries herself and this guy obviously had none himself. This type of betrayal feels humiliating because it didn't occur to me, that she was doing this until it actually happened. I was blind sided you might say...all because I wouldn't do it myself?
I think the term is called "monkey branching". Where that person is always shopping for someone knew to replace you. In X's case, she wasn't willing to give up the validation she needed to feel attractive or desirable, which as I said consistently, I did everything in my power to make sure build her up ...by honestly telling her how attractive I thought she was. Her weight ( her issue ) was not a problem for me in terms of me being attracted to her. Her need for validation was from a more deep seated need that came from somewhere else. There's was no amount of telling her she was beautiful and attractive to fill the void that needed to have that reinforced all the time, especially from other men. Specifically other men. So this idea of monkey branching around to get that need filled...was not necessarily even about sex. She just needed to have it to feel special...and even tho I did everything in my power to make her feel that way, it simply wasn't enough. She needed it from more than just one person. I think that's exactly why she was calling me "pocessive " for wanting a traditional monogamous relationship which was just so weird to me? That's all I wanted, and I assumed sex would be part of it? It's kind of goes without saying so...you don't really have to normally speaking?
So going back, she may not have invited this Sham Wow character over that day or any day for that matter. What she didn't do, was atop it...when it was appropriate to stop it and this gave this, sort of, Jackel like, opportunistic scavenger type to trying and "move in" on my territory so to speak. And I'm watching it happen right in front of me. I knew his character right off the bat, and could do nothing to stop him from doing what he does.
Because X wasn't stopping him either. She needed that "romance novel" feeling of having guys court her, or show her advances...even if she didn't follow through...it was still humiliating to have this person I totally didn't respect ...sit there, and disrespect me right time my face while my X sat there and watched and did nothing.
That do over ? If I knew what I know now...I would have contested the entire visit or at least....be way more direct in that moment in time. I might even have said something like " hold on their bucko...you don't come into my house and speak to me that way." Leaving off any of the colorful labels...but setting a clear boundary for him..... because she certainly wasn't doing it...which left it to me to do it.
That in itself would have caused a total rupture in the entire relationship right then. It would have complete changed the outcome to a different one...but still the same ending. It was humiliating to have to be put into that position in the first place. Here, I can't set any boundaries with her...but now I'm being faced with having to set boundaries with him.
And seriously, if I had set a boundary with him in that moment, that part of me, that responds to "guys like these" would have definitely come out. The rupture was going to happen anyway....but I would have forced the issue and retained my self respect at the same time. But of course ...how was I to know that at the time so I don't blame myself for what I didn't know except ...who this guy was.
So in essence, this guy ( the Jackel ) ..the opportunist scavenger type...was trying to get intimidating or at least...competitive with me in front of my X like some kind of show down to see who gets the girl. That's what it felt like at least.
And my spirit animal in that case, comes alive. That's my darker side you might say ...to meet darkness against darkness man to man. I didn't do that, and I still don't regret it...but essence...it would like a Jackel against a Honey Badger...and Honey Badger don't care.
Seriously, you don't want to go up against a Honey Badger. They aren't afraid of you. They series don't care . That's my shadow animal...I'm not proud of it, but it's pretty accurate when trying to use these animals as way to see who these characters are.
Anyway, the entire thing was humiliating...and boundaries were being violated every where...especially mine.
And even the Honey Basger reference is not a bad one ...in respect to me even now. If needed it ...that energy can carry itself enough just to avoid an issue. I mean really? Are you going to attempt to wrangle an angry Honey Badger? It's like...way too much effort for most predators to deal with. That is winning the battle without one right? The Supreme art of War? Winning the battle without the fight?
She should make you safe
I’m sorry about the incident with the predatory person and your ex.
To me the situation seems to contain a lack of boundaries on her part, and this is really her responsibility.
If the two of you welcome a guest to your home, she should signal your and her bond to the guest, so there is no question of how things are.
If she doesn’t, that’s really on her. Humiliating, I’m sure. But really, in that position you can’t blame yourself, since it’s not you opening up for flirting or sending ambiguous signals. Even if you’re an expert bouncer, you can’t protect yourself from infidelity.
Which is why love doesn’t only make us stronger, but also potentially weaker, which is very disturbing and something I’ve felt, too.
Developmental Trauma
I bought the book : The Body Keeps the Score...and am on this Chapter about developmental trauma. About half way through....
Without going through all I know about X and her entire growing up experience, this helps explain some of it to me, and about myself for that matter. We both experienced childhood trauma and that part is clear.
Swedish, what you just said in part, is what I also concluded after writing all this yesterday. And I'm at this point myself for any relationship I might have in the future in respect to all these things being discussed.
If we could go back to the beginning, to start all over again. X stated to me up front: "I want a longterm relationship ".....period. End of story.
There was no ambiguity what so ever. I didn't infer, or project what I wanted, she told me "this is what I want"....and I answered..."This is what I want as well"
If, she had been completely open and honest she should have said "Well, I like to keep my options open. I'm really just "playing the field" and have several men I'm in refular contact with who seem interested in me. I'd like a to find someone who I could have a traditional relationship with, but honestly, I tend not to stay with just one person and have been really doing the "friends with benefits" type relationship without that kind of commitment. That seems to be what's been working best for me."
And I would have said " oh, well, okay, to each their own and if that works for you then more power to you. Your entitled to do anything you want, what ever works for you. That's not what I want so, God bless you, and I hope you have a good life."
That would been just fine, instead of dragging me through this entire relationship just to find out, that's what really works best for her. She even said when I was leaving that she feels she'll never try to be in another committed relationship and will probably go back to "dating" again. Dating for her is friends with benefits having multiple options at her disposal.
The crazy making thing for me is...from day one...she specifically stated: "I'm done with "dating"...I'm off all the dating sites and I want a long term relationship. None of "these guys" I've been dating want that."
Which is right where it started. And I answered her:" I'm in the same place. I'm done with "dating" too and haven't had a "date" in over 7 years if you count my last girlfriend. Sounds like we're on the same page and want the sane thing?"
No, we didn't want the same thing at all. What she calls "dating" I'd friends with benefits. That's an entirely different kind of relationship and that's not considered in the same category as "dating to find a long term relationship" as I dud, or at least, commited myself to. Those arevtwo entirely different things. "Serial monogamy " is NOT "friends with benefits" having multiple suiters, and having ongoing relationships with more than one at a time?
It's like, that's all you'd have to say? I understand the difference? That's the crazy making part...she didn't say what she meant, and that was definitely not my fault.
I said what I meant, and I meant what I said. When I say "I choose you" ...I mean it. There's no ambiguity about it. ( errrrr ). It's why I'm so focused on accuracy in communication and choosing the correct words. "Long term relationship" does not equal "friends with benefits, having more that one "special friend" at a time"....or "monkey branching" ie: always shopping for the next potential partner, while your still with the last one.
All she would have had to say is any of these possible explanations and I would have gone " oh, okay, I understand what your doing, no problem at all, that's just not for me.
End of story. Not that complicated? If there was any lying involved in terms of not being honest up front, it would that one "big" lie ..that would have covered all the bases. One ring to to rule them all using that metaphor.
Anyway, the book is fascinating and I can easily see myself in it. In some ways, I do feel very lucky because it could have been worse if I hadn't done what I did. Being the "Feral child" had some distinct advantages despite being a much harder road to take. It's been an uphill battle but at least it was character building as a result. I also heard, what seems to fit X very well. She definitely had childhood Trauma and it even shows in her body now.
I looked at my body this just this morning contemplating it a bit. It's gone back to my old swimming body...but I haven't swum in years. A bit older, but it hasn't changed that much.
Vagus Nerve Shutdown
One more thing to add....that Vagus nerve shutdown I just experienced. THAT....is what damm near killed me. If I had to go through that even one more time, I don't think this old body could take it. I mean, that wreaked havoc on my entire body and nervous system: heart, breating, my entire GI tract, sleep...the whole nine yards as they say.
If anything, that's what I'm not willing to risk even one more time.
J
could it be more positive than that?
You could just do less; you don’t have to cut people off; just show up as yourself, do what you feel comfy with, and they can like it or lump it. You then have to learn too that you have to like it or lump it yourself- can you accept yourself? Can you somehow find a way to please yourself? Because if you can life certainly gets more pleasurable. xx
Anxiety
I did this at a lunch at my parents a few months ago. I brought no kids. I spoke only of positive or neutral things.
What happens then is I become a more sophisticated person, more fun, and it seems like I have my life together. So then I think they assume my withdrawal from them is aggressive. I fear they will quietly punish me. In reality the withdrawal is self-preservation. My life is not together, I’m in pain and on the verge of burnout. But I can’t convey this in any way without risking ten times the pain (because they react like they don’t believe me, don’t care, or just find me annoying).
Their reactions, their slight frowns, their reluctance take only a millisecond for me to register as danger.
It’s a good question, can I accept myself? The answer is crystal clear: away from them, yes. With friends, yes. Alone, yes. With family, or the bully at work, or for that matter ex and his frightful family, I’d say it doesn’t matter what I accept in myself. There’s too much anxiety for anything else to register.
I think with them I’ve historically overridden my boundaries in a way I can’t forgive. So the issue is shame, coupled with fear of punishment when I reject their expectations.
Sorry to be whining. It’s just really hard to find any pleasure around these people.
You’re not whining
It sounds so difficult. You seem to be hyper vigilant and desperately self conscious- ie any slight infraction can lead to who knows what horrors. I hear you; I think I’ve been somewhere like that. I never felt safe. But it feels like I’m not there anymore and I do feel safe now, I’m trying to work out how that has changed. Obviously you are dealing with different people, a different history, and are not me, so the same process, even if it could be replicated, would not necessarily work.
But it went something like this. I realised there was a narcissistic element in my family and began to read up and understand that. I felt grief and anger for the ways that had affected me, and then I began to heal, and to understand that the narcissist was that because he had not been shown the love he needed and was suffering too. With that healing underway I then began to consider differently the unhappiness and iniquities of my marriage and to understand that too as not necessarily my fault. That was then followed by an ADHD diagnosis and a close friend suggesting my husband could well be a covert narcissist (this felt so true I exclamed a swear word loudly by a kids playground- friend covered nicely by saying ‘Yes I think it is a duck.’. ) So I began to see the pattern. NPD and ADHD can look very similar superficially, and of course one can have both (he does). So a year, two, three, of disentanglement from him, and therapy, and learning to feel my own feelings and hear myself. And over that time my relationship with my parents started to improve because a) it was always fine as far as they were concerned and b) my hyper vigilance faded out and I could relax around them; I no longer felt unsafe, because I felt more solid in myself and know how and why they operate they way they do. now I’m just sound (ish) and Mum’s blunt criticism and Dad’s chippiness and short fuse just don’t land. I guess - and this feels weird to say, because if anything I love them better now - I don’t care what they think of me because I know what I think of me and now, at last, and it’s taken a lot of work to get this far, I think I am okay.
So in brief, this is maybe part of your journey to thinking you are okay, and when you get there, to the Republic of Okay, you’ll be okay with them and their challenging behaviour too.
I hope. Or something like that. Your equivalent. Xx
Thank you Honestly
You just did the equivalent of walking over the bridge to somebody else and looking at the view from their perspective… thank you.
Yes, I feel fundamentally unsafe. Despite trying hard I haven’t been able to handle the behavior of ex, his family, my family or certain people at work. Neither do I understand them? They seem threatening and impossibly strange.
I think you have a good point about the marriage being a catalyst, turning other relationships much worse than they were. A total and unexpected loss of trust in my ex during divorce has shaken the fundament of my trust and only some gifted friends have been able to seem consistent and safe since.
But life is still good. There are lovely spring days, my son and work in the garden today. I’ve recieved three spontaneous job offers in the last few months. There are friends. One is taking me to a concert Thursday.
And would you believe it, my brother just called and offered to get dessert for the birthday dinner I’m throwing for my son tomorrow.
Thanks for being intelligent and empathetic and taking time to help me.
What they are
Read a good text from a woman who’d spent years explaining herself to and analyzing her mother in law. She’d poured her energy into this difficult relationship in hopes of being understood and accepted.
Then finally she stopped trying.
She went to family gatherings expecting the unpleasant remarks and derogatory attitude of her mother in law. She got the same comment about her hair, the same unfavorable comparison of her cooking to her sister in law’s. But it no longer meant so much, since she didn’t try to change it.
This made sense to me.
Yesterday I made a dinner celebrating son’s birthday. The thing swelled spontaneously into 9 people eating outdoors. I enjoyed it - I like hosting.
Also I tried to accept my family as they are. Siblings unable to contribute by conversation or signs of general interest. Parents loving but also incapable of social conversation. They all obviously lack skills, which makes me thankful for aunt and uncle who enjoy themselves and light up the room.
I will continue to host my family that doesn’t know how to take emotional responsibility and doesn’t reciprocate. I have zero hope this will ever change. We still all gain from meeting a few times a year at my house. We’re a family, even though they may believe we’re individuals only.
Not trying to explain anything, not asking for anything is the answer. It’s hard, isn’t it, when you’ve had an ADD spouse deplete your energy and generosity for so long. But there it is.
Expecting Something Different
is non acceptance. Expecting the same is acceptance. That's the key right there Swedish.
Fainting Spells
I want to mentioned something that I recently brought up when I visited X recently and even before that. The urgent are trip she's still paying off, and these "mysterious " fainting spells and or, panic attacks she's experiencing.
I'm not a doctor, but I do notice patterns. This sounds almost identical to what she described as a list of symptoms. She hasn't been fully tested so this is just me stabbing in the dark.
Vasovagal syncope = a specific acute event
sudden dizziness
sweating
nausea ( vomiting )
tunnel vision
heart rate / blood pressure drop
fainting or near-fainting
It kind of checks all the boxes and I think this could also be a trauma response? IDK?
Are you worried about her?
I think there can be several reasons for what you describe, perhaps it’s good she gets a work up.
Are you worried? I hope you’ll be able to keep your distance to your X, since you’ve not fared well in contact with her?
All the best, J.
I Do Worry
But, It comes from a good place. I expect nothing from her. I have no future notions of ever getting back together ( absolutely not ) or wanting validation or repair from her in any way. Friendship is good with me, even within her limited capacity. ( on her terms )
Today is her birthday, and I struggled with the idea of dropping off something? Cards can carry am emotional component, especially when they're written by someone else!
Even within what you said about keeping my distance. That, "I should do this because..." ( list of good reasons for me )
I've decided, what's also good for me is to be who I am, to do what I'd naturally do, especially if it's a friend. She likes Maple Bars and so do I ! Getting her one, and dropping it off ( and myself one of course ) is what I'd naturally do anyway. Stopping myself, from doing what comes naturally, doesn't feel right.
I only felt good by dropping off the propane bottle ( out of concern ) which ended up with her and I having a nice exchange that ended on a positive note.
I'm literally, less than a mile away. I'm not "going out if my way" to do this as I'm already at the store anyway. A maple bar doesn't feel personal or carrys any heavy emotion more than just something sweet to eat that she enjoys. It's the thought that counts.
I feel better doing this, than not doing this....that's how I know it's the right thing to do.
Finding that balance
I think what you’re doing - small kind gestures - are probably better than what I’m doing (sitting on my hands on loved lost one’s birthdays, avoiding them like the plague). Like you, my natural tendency is to care and let it show. I just can’t handle them, at all, so avoid them completely.
Keeping out of touch is a recommended way to heal after trauma. Still it seems those who don’t lose contact, and can reshape their emotions for the loved one over time, might suffer less than I do.
Today I had an unannounced visit from a parent and it went well, they stayed for lunch. We even had some fun, and I told them I’m not coming for Midsummer’s, and I didn’t tell them how I’m doing (poorly). They clearly prefer it that way.
Finding the balance with these people I love but that freak me out completely is life’s next big challenge.
Way to go, J.
Everyone is different.
I can't go confront my sister without thinking, she sees "Peter Pan". Ironically, she is a huge Disney fan! Lol
And dropping by with a maple bar for a less than a half hour is not a huge investment in any way. It's just a quick visit to say happy birthday and leaving it that. I have no expectations or need for anything more than that. Your situation is different. A different kind of balance is needed I guess ?
Vagabond
Swedish. Yesterday I saw a name on social media that I recognized. It was the name of a man who lived right across the street from my house growing up, but, there was no way he could be alive. I looked at his profile and immediately saw a number of people I knew in his friends list and also noticed, he was a Vietnam veteran. I thought, he has to the son. I friend requested him, and sure enough, he lived right across the street but I'd never met him or talked to him yet, I knew his parents and his younger sister.
But he knows my older sister and brother in law too. He's a retired journalist for the big main newspaper in town. When I briefly told him what I was up to, he said: "they use to call that a "Vagabond ". He liked my bucket list idea and gave me that title.
It's intersect to note, two different people from the same generation both seeing me differently. One see's Peter Pan..the other sees a free spirited Vagabond.
It amazing to me, that I lived across the street and never new he existed. His younger sister I knew, because she was friends with my other sister. It's a small world for sure, and different perceptions to say the least !
There you are
There’s a big difference between Peter Pan and a Vagabond. The former is delusional and catered for. The latter has been traveling and developed specific survival skills.
Easy to see which description would be most accurate for you, then.
Fun With Animals
This using animals to tell stories I've found is not only helpful for me, I'm actually having fun with it. This made me laugh, retelling this story to myself using these animal characters.
I just remembered a memory from those crowd control days, it's a great story but also, it's the best example of winning the battle without a fight. Much better than myself the Honey Badger. LOL And if not for anything else, it's a great example of what true "strength and power " really is, both physically and mentally.
This one evening in particular, I was assigned "floor duty" up near the front close to the stage. My lead partner was a guy from my college who was a bit older. He was an incredible athelete and football player ( American ) but came in this incredibly small tight package for a football player. I think he was only 5'9" with a 28" waist so he didn't carryin himself off as an intimidating presence. This is one of those times, you can't judge a book by its cover. He could run the 40yd dash in 4 seconds. He could dead lift 300lbs but only weighed about 160lbs himself. Like was truly super human in strength and athleticism, but you'd never tell just by looking at him except by his shoulders, they were huge! His animal equivalent was an Oraguntang. Strong as a Gorilla but all in his upper body and legs. He was actually drafted by the NFL but got cut because of his size. When you're playing against Elephants, he could run between their legs carrying the football but he was just not quite there in size. In ability yes, he was every bit as good, NFL caliber for sure.
So, there was this big commotion in our section and and walked over to see what was happening. One of these Jackels and his girlfrien had stolen this couple seats while they went to the bathroom, then threw their coats on the floor. The nice couple who's seats that were taken came up to me said "can you help us? They stole our seats? I walked over to the Jackels, while the entire section kept yelling at them calling them foul names. I mean it wasn't just a couple people yelling, it was the entire section! Lol That's what the commotion was, and the sentiment was unanimous. And I said something like " okay, what's going on here? Did you steal these people's seats?" And the jackel just said " I'm not moving, they were empty when I saw them. Not moving. You can't make me." And his girlfriend just sat there in silence.
I think I may have asked them to move and the guy kept saying over and over" I'm not moving, you can't make me move." He just kept repeating it , while the entire section kept screaming at him. And the nice couple were looking rather hopeless.
So I went back and found my lead partner the Orangutan, and said "Ive got a situation here, guy stole these people's seats and my entire section is in an uproar." He's just like " oh, well, we'll see about that." And casually walks over to the Jackel but in the row behind and bends over and puts his face close to the Jackels and in a mild soft voice says "did you take these seats that were already taken?" And the sections screams "YES, YES HE DID!! " And the guy says "I'm not moving, and you can't make me!" So the Orangutang just reaches over the guys back and grabs him by his belt on both sides of his hips, and dead lifts him straight up and over the back of his chair ( still in his stubborn ( rigid ) seated position ) and in one motion just deposits him onto the floor at his feet. The Jackel must have been at least 175lbs or more. And the guy just looks up at him and the entire section started claping in applause. He said nothing to the guy, and just looks at me and said "there you go" and walked back to his area. It was a beautiful thing. The guy really had super human strength....and he only asked once!
Anyway. That was the Supreme Art of War right there. Very little talking, no Honey Badger energy needed. And that really is the moral to the story. I fully recognized I was in a situation where this guy was being more tenacious than a Honey Badger and as Stubborn as a mule and I lacked the ability or know how to get this guy to move. And wasn't even ejected from the premises... just deposited on the floor. Lol
It was a beautiful thing. That was Mastery right there.