For most of our marriage, H was the primary breadwinner. He had a very good job, and I stayed home raising our children (I worked full time during the first 5 years of marriage, until first child was born). Once the kids were raised, H began hinting that I should work. And, whenever he was mad at me for some minor or NOTHING reason, he'd yell at me to get a job. (This was when H was working and he refused to lift a finger around the house for ANY reason, even if I was seriously ill.) For awhile, I did get a job as a full timesales job, but it had no flexibility with hours (impossible to get a day off), and H still wasn't lifting a finger around the house, so we decided that I should leave that job. H had lots of flexibility with his job, and we BOTH resented the fact that I was literally a prisoner to my job's required hours. I then started my own business and have done quite well with it. It is a job where much of what I do can be done from home (taking orders, doing contracts, etc)
H has a very good retirement pension, but after years of living on H's high income, my business income allows us to continue living in the lifestyle we've become accustomed to. H has some expensive habits and insists on a certain brand-name Rx that our insurance doesn't cover, and is VERY expensive. This med is not necessary, but he "wants" it. It alone costs us about $600 a month. His other meds are mostly covered by insurance, but the co-payments run about $200 a month. So, his meds cost about $800 a month. His copayments for doctors and therapy run about $150 a month. We also must meet a $2500 per year family deductible before the insurance begins coverage. Every year, the $2500 deductible is quickly spent on H's doctors, RXs, and therapy appts. Overall, his "health needs" cost us about $15k per year (last year was higher because he had a major surgery).
I'm not complaining, just providing background for the following situation:
Now that H is retired, he NOW doesn't mind doing some chores around the house.. He is happy to help me with certain aspects of my business, and he does a very good job within those specific parameters (low stress/low anxiety efforts). He has NO INTEREST is doing anything that has to do with frequently updating 6 websites, customer contact, billing, invoices, record keeping, etc. I'm fine with that. In fact, H repeatedly says that he'd "freak out," if he had to do what I do. He hates the "interruptions" of calls, texts, emails, etc from customers. When he's calm, he just says that he's glad that I handle those things.
(In addition to H, I have an employee/assistant, but she can't do the parts that I do (the risk is too high, and she's also the nervous type).)
Since this business crosses time zones, I have to literally "be open" 24/7 in responses and customer care.
Well, when I'm doing the aspects that H hates, he's often annoyed that I'm largely unavailable to him. It's important that I not be interrupted at key times out of fear that I'll make a serious mistake. When I'm focused on doing a contract, or updating a website, I am very focused (maybe a bit ADHD...ha ha), because there would be a serious cost if I were to make a serious error.
H is like a small child who does NOT want to be told, "just a minute." When he's calm and we talk about it, he "understands," but at the moment he's talking, (the now, not now issue), he flips out if I tell him "just a minute". Sometimes, I'm so engrossed and focused, that I don't even hear his interruption.
H will then have a major temper tantrum (yes, that's what it looks like...a 3 year old) and start whining that I "care more about the job than I do" him. He'll demand that I stop what I'm doing and listen to his "tantrum du jour" as "proof" that he is more important than my business.
When H was working, I never placed such demands on him. I treated his job as a very important aspect because it was what supported our family. I never looked at it as, "you spend more time at work than with me, so you must think the job is more important than your wife and kids." I would never had thought anything like that!
So, H likes to say things like, "I don't care about the money, so I don't care if you give up the business." That is total BS because he'd never give up his pricey healthcare needs. His (false) claim is all part of the now, not now thing going on.
What to do?
Why can't I find this in a
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
Why can't I find this in a forum? Did I put it in the wrong spot?
Click Posts vs Comments
Submitted by kellyj on
ditto
Unfortunately, I don't have
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
Unfortunately, I don't have suggestions for alleviating this problem. But I did want to chime in to say that I can relate to at least part of what you describe. Many years ago, when my children were still at home and my husband got a job (after being unemployed for six years or so), I made a point of taking on as many of the household and parenting tasks as I could handle, to "protect" my husband and to do as much as I could to help make employment "doable" for him (and I was also working part-time throughout these years). My husband has never made an effort to make my life outside my job easier. When he lost the job, one of my friends said, "Well, at least he should do ALL the housework now." Ha ha. That sure didn't happen! At the urging of one of his therapists, we finally agreed on the not-at-all-unreasonable (for him) division of housework: he would vacuum once per week and I would do everything else. Guess who kept to his side of that agreement only once in one year....
Hi Rosered....
Submitted by c ur self on
Just smiling at your comment....It must be nice to live in a mind that lets you off the hook for keeping your promises....It cuts way down on the workload...LOL...
Have a great day!
C
My two cents worth....
Submitted by c ur self on
One of the draw backs of working at home is you seem available when you're not. Your husband has a point also...I think if I were you I would set up hours of operation and post them on the web site...Then let those in other time zone's leave message's on your business phone number. That is the way it works unless you pay over night staffing. It's not fair to your husband, you, are your relationship for you two to not have quiet sharing time you can count on and plan around...What's the most important here?
Tell your husband there are times I'm going to be just as unavailable as you were when you were away from home on your job. Even though you are looking right at me....You may want to bar him from your office just to make this more real for him. Of course not in an insulting way, but in a kind agreeing way:) Baring an emergency....
This is something an agreed upon boundary can fix...If you both respect it....
Best wishes....
C
One of the draw backs of working at home is you seem available w
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
<< One of the draw backs of working at home is you seem available when you're not. Your husband has a point also...I think if I were you I would set up hours of operation and post them on the web site..<<
I agree that while working from home (or on the road), it appears that I'm available. I have told H that I feel like I need to rent office space so that I can go to an office, just to have him respect my work time.
I agree that after hours stuff is a pain, but I promise you, after-hours obligations are not common. H and I have a LOT of time together alone. H really doesn't like ANYTHING that takes attention away from him.... Most of my business is conducted during the traditional work hours, but H is like a two year old who sees "mommy is busy, therefore make noise to get mommy's attention."
As it is, I try to get up 2-3 hours each morning before H wakes up to get as much done as I can w/o it upsetting him. But, if it's 11 am, and I'm working on a contract and H walks in and says something, and I say, "just a minute, I'm finishing this up," he gets upset that he's being set aside for a few minutes. Heck, he gets upset if I just say that I need to finish typing a SENTENCE!
The fact is....no matter the time of day, if I'm working on something, and H impulsively has to say something (rarely is it something important), he can't stand being put off for a couple of minutes because he thinks that is saying that he doesn't come first.
Retirement has exposed more of H's neediness......
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
During H's work years, he was away from home a LOT. Between long work hours, business travel, personal interests (gym, golf, tennis, etc), H was gone a LOT.
In hindsight, I now realize that his need for lots of attention was spread around to many OTHER people....employees, his golf foursome, our kids, me, etc. Now it's just me. The moment something pops into H's head, he is compelled to say it and expects me to be his ever-ready listener. He is "put off" when told to wait a sec.
There are things that H respects. When someone is taking their golf shot, he knows to be quiet. When I was working a regular job, he understood that I wasn't available much to him. But, now when I'm not working for someone else, he thinks that anything I'm doing can be immediately "set aside" to listen to him.
Also, please understand that 99% of what he's saying to me is either NOT immediately important....or is simply random babble. I have "dropped everything" to come to him when he calls out my name, only to hear some silly joke or be shown something political that came thru on his Facebook newsfeed. When he was working, he probably did this to underlings who just put up with him because he was their boss.
This came to a head a week ago. H came in and said that he wanted to watch a movie with me. I told him I was working on a website. He said that was fine. I was able to watch some of the movie, but not all of it. I was with him the whole time, but would stop work from time to time to watch. H would make comments about the movie and actors and I would respond most of the time. When the movie ended, H stood up and started whining. I was floored because I had warned him that I was working and he had said that was fine (more ADHD now, not now, going on).
He went on and on about how I never listen to him and that I'm always working. Funny coming from the person who once yelled at me to "get a job" once our kids were grown. And when I started the business, he said, "I won't complain about the time because I know this is important." I've expanded this business twice, and both times he claimed to be 100% behind the expansions. We have a lot of money tied up in buildings, supplies, etc....it's not like I can just walk away from this or easily down-size the business.
So much of this is the "now, not now" thing going on, which is more complicated by H's OCD. He truly does love how successful the business is and he's proud of what's been accomplished. But, he's also jarred whenever he's told to wait a minute.
I got my first glimpse of how H doesn't like to be put off for a minute or two when cell phones first came out. They were very costly back then, but H surprised me by buying me one. I was like, "wow," because I knew how expensive they were. But, I soon found out that having a cell phone meant that H expected me to be available 24/7. I guess when I was out of the house (shopping, school/sports stuff with kids), I was unreachable and H didn't like that. So, now when I'd be in the check-out line at the grocery and H would call, he'd get mad if I answered and said, "I'm at the register, can I call you back?" He'd respond with, "I got you a cell phone so I could always reach you." Uh oh.
I told him if having a cell phone meant that I was expected to be tied to his hip, then I didn't want it. He didn't give up. So, I sometimes had to fib when he called and later pretend that I didn't hear the phone ring or that I had left it at home. Ugh. Hated lying, but he could handle being told that I left the phone in the car, or didn't hear the ring, but he couldn't handle hearing that I couldn't answer because I was doing XXXXXX. In his head, if I'm doing something and CHOOSE not to answer his call, then I'm saying that he's not important. Well, if Im talking to my kid's teacher or doctor and H calls, then I'm not going to take the call right then!!! H thinks I should say to the teacher or doctor, "I need to take this call." Since 99.9% of H's calls are NOT important, (as in, "I'm going to the gym" or "I just heard this joke....." ), there's no way I'm telling a doctor that I have to take one my H's calls. In my mind, if it's truly important, then H will call back immediately again (which is what he did when he had a flat tire.)
Let me give you an example .....
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
Let me give you an example of H's compulsive talking....
I was the witness of a "hit and run" accident. H was not there. H went with me to the police station to file the report. The police officer took us to a room so he could hear the story and write his report.
I began talking, and H kept chiming in. The police officer asked H if he had been a witness and H said, "no," so the officer told H that he wasn't allowed to provide any info since he wasnt a witness.
I kept trying to tell the story, and H kept interrupting. The office kept reminding H that H wasn't a witness so his words could not be included in the report. It became impossible for me to tell the story because H kept talking. The officer probably should have ordered H out of the room. This kept going on and the report wasn't getting written, so finally I asked the officer if he'd be available the next morning (while H would be at his job). The officer said "yes," and I said that I'd come back (alone) in the morning.
H was very upset that I wasn't "loyal" to him by insisting that the officer listen to him. WTH???
Yipes, OWW. Yipes. The
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
Yipes, OWW. Yipes. The dynamic that you describe with your husband doing whatever you'd call the pattern, obsessively breaking in on your attention or breaking in on what you're saying does happen at home here, but it's nowhere as bad as what you're living through.
You're naming some of the stuff over which I was (from my POV and experience) getting beaten to pieces a couple years ago. When I was away from him, the problem was much less, although we went through a spell in which he was texting me incessantly and getting alarmed or upping his reaction, if it wasn't alarm, if I didn't text him right back. That went on until I learned to turn the phone to silence or completely off, if I was in meeting, or something else, at work. Or having lunch with a girlfriend. For awhile when I'd be out with anyone, I'd get these incessant texts and pings from him while with them. I had to learn to turn off or silence the darn phone. He and I are in a much more sensible and in my opinion, adult, use of the phone for communication these days.
But like you, when I was away from him things werent as bad as when we both were working at home, and we do. I really have had to use that door to the room that I'm using as my office, explain that the shut door means I am focusing on something and can't be interrupted.
Like you, there is some kind of checking in on me more than necessary, for any factual reason, although my husband and I are both working on leaving each other alone during the work period of the day. It's just a guess on my part, just a guess, mine doesn't read my feelings very easily, and I've wondered whether some (not all) of the check, check, check, interrupting to ask an unnecessary question at the moment is him checking that "everything is OK". Because he doesn't easily hear my emotional level, in my tone of voice (and, as gets reported on the site, sometimes "hears" an upset or angry tone when the tone just plain isn't there, in real time and space).
I do sympathize with you enormously...this kind of behavior, whatever in your husband or mine that keeps it going, is VERY disruptive to work getting done. They really made my work completion impossible, I really was going out of my mind, and getting panicky at the work stacking up because it had been so constantly broken in on and interrupted....and I don't think I have had it nearly as bad as what you're having to deal with in your husband...your husband does sound like he is locked into breaking in on your attention, in an irrational, obsessive way.
I asked in another post whether or not your husband recognizes that you're at work, when he breaks in on you when you're working, because I've wondered....again not knowing....but wondered if what I'm doing around the house is in my husband's consciousness at all, when he's involved with whatever he's involved with. Non-ADHD, and probably due to upbringing or work practice, who knows, I have like a running semiconscious attention of who is doing what around me....no details, just am semi conscious aware if somone is physically near me or far from me, if someone said he/she was at work and needed quiet, that at work and needing quiet is there somehow, in the semiconscious, as I'm doing what I'm doing. I've never figured out why my husband : ) talks to me as if I'm present near him, when I'm 4 rooms away. I know for sure that he doesn't register in his mind what I'm doing physically often...I can be staggering along (I'm being dramatic here but the example is real) carrying 3 heavy bags of groceries, with something slung over my shoulder and my hands occupied with keys, just having gotten through the front door, and he asks me to open a new jar of something....right then. Does he not see that I'm going to have to get things set down and out of my hands? I don't think he does these howlers about not noticiing that I'm working or occupied out of meanness.
That obsessively interrupting you during your deposition to the police, despite the policeman repeatedly telling him to pipe down is daunting.
What you're talking about goes 'way, 'way past the pretty well known male retiree phenomenon of retiring from work, not having enough to fill his own time, and so becoming the micromanager of his homebody wife. A former mother in law of mine had that problem. It was ridiculous...he'd traipse around after her, criticizing the housework that she was doing, but not lifting a finger to do any himself. But that's old retiree duffer behavior, having lost his context in having lost his own job, turning into Mr. Manager at home.
You're in something that is much tougher, I think. Having been driven nearly wild for awhile with the constant interruptions coming from a well meaning man who didn't seem to get that when I was at work, I was at WORK, I don't know what I'd do. I did have to lay down some law on it before any dent was made at home here on it.
..like turning the bleeping constantly dinging cell phone off at times, back on when I was available (he used to ding me to death when I was driving in traffic as well. Telling him that I couldn't respond to him while driving, and I'd be driving from x time to y time made ZERO effect on him....what I was doing just wasn't real to him...or as real as these semiconscious notings that I do about other people are, to me. I actually adjust my behavior, based on what I'm semiconscious remembering or noting about people around me).
...I had to talk hardball with my husband saying taht if I couldn't get my work-for-my job work done at home during my at home periods, I'd start leaving the house to get it done....that seemed to make a dent, finally, in mine, as well as my dentist-drill insistence, without blowing up at him, that I couldn't deal with that now, it'd have to be later. Mind boggling.
I guess I'm worrying over you. What you're talking about is not merely being vexed by someone's idiosyncracies, it really blew me out of the work water for awhile, and your hub sounds like he's reinforcing his own obsessive breaking in on you.
: (
...I hope anything anybody has contributed to this thread gives you a glimmer of something new to try, or support for keeping doing what you're doing about it.
If I were going through what you're going through....I think it would, knowing my body, lead to a fatigue breakdown eventually.
My partner always seems surprised when I bring him up short that no, I can't do what he wants, right now.
((OWW))
I Witnessed This Very Thing NON
Submitted by kellyj on
What you said here.... "What you're talking about goes 'way, 'way past the pretty well known male retiree phenomenon of retiring from work, not having enough to fill his own time, and so becoming the micromanager of his homebody wife. A former mother in law of mine had that problem. It was ridiculous...he'd traipse around after her, criticizing the housework that she was doing, but not lifting a finger to do any himself. But that's old retiree duffer behavior, having lost his context in having lost his own job, turning into Mr. Manager at home."
This drove my mother nuts. I was living at home temporarily after just graduating college and for a brief time was using a guest bedroom in the basement of my parents house which had it's own entry which allowed me my own autonomy while at the same time....gave me a home base until I had time to get work established and move out on my own. My father had me remodel my old childhood bedroom and turn it into an office for him even though he had no real need for an office what so ever (never had one before at home in over 25 years in the same house).
In respect to my mother....this was very intrusive or rather....he was being very intrusive.
This "attached at the hip" kind of behavior was causing my mother to get extremely annoyed for all good reasons. As it was set up ( by my father originally I think )....he worked.....my mom ran the house and there was no over lap in duties what so ever including child rearing. He was the enforcer and punisher as far a child rearing went and that was the extent of his parenting abilities. As far as anything that had to do with the house or things in it.....he had left that completely up to my mother to deal with with no real interest shown until he retired. It must have felt like a hostile take over to my mother since the rules had suddenly changed without warning or any communication what so ever on my fathers part. He just pretty much took over and that did not sit well with my mother I can tell you.
Even in respect to me and doing these projects that he was not able to do himself.......he was still in charge and I was still in the subordinate (sub contractor role) and being paid to take orders from him. This was fine with me at the time but it still had the flavor of being a worker and him being the boss. But then again.....I was always going to be his son (or offspring) and that role never changes in that respect. My mother on the other hand was not down with being pushed out of her role of being in charge of the house and my father was completely lost if he didn't have someone to control or boss around any more and was kind of aimlessly milling around looking for someone or something to exact control over and be in charge of.
By the end of my temporary move back home during this time.....I watched this play out until finally it got to the point I needed to get out of there as fast as I could. My mother had pretty much put her foot down about his attempted take over and now he was even more lost and in need of control than before. It finally came to head for me when one night I had gone out with friends ( like I had for years by that time) and came home around 3:00 am to find my father and mother waiting up for me to chew me out for coming in at such a late hour (or early). My father went off on me like I was a teenager still and start lecturing the same as you would for someone that age if there was some kind of curfew or agreement involved requiring such a thing. Being 22 yrs old at the time...and being out of the house since I was 18 and on my own (living in various arrangements with room mates through college).....I just stood there shaking my head thinking to myself..."I've got to get out of here.....this is ridiculous!"
As it was.....I found out later from my mother.....that my father was upset that night since he couldn't sleep and he heard me come in and then decided to do this impromptu without explaining himself to her either? This was just more kicking the dog behavior that I had grown accustomed too from years of it so this was nothing new to me. Saying...it wasn't a shock but not saying you ever get use to it or like it that's for sure!
On my mothers side however.....none of what she was experiencing she had ever had to deal with before and I told her..." join the club Mom" This was an interesting experience to have together and was possibly the first time my mother caught a real glimpse of how I might have felt to have someone just walk in and take control over a situation without being conferred with and discussed with ahead of time. This was really the turning point for her in putting her foot down and putting a stop to this which my father had no real recourse or logical come back in refuting my mothers authority here. Not much he could say one way or another since he had been the one demand things be this way for the entirety of my parents relationship together yet.....he didn't like how he felt and how this effected him now but didn't have a leg to stand on or any real argument to make in favor of what he wanted.
He didn't ask......he just did it any way and tried to take what he wanted but this time....he had no way to explain himself or power to say anything to the contrary. In other words...he was out of place and out of line and had no ability to adjust or adapt to his new found environment like a fish out of water.
He was in all respects....a one trick pony with a one track mind in all regards. Rigid, inflexible and intolerant in every respect without any skills outside being the one in charge, being the one in a position of power and authority and exerting himself and his control over other people. Without the ability to do this any more.....he was lost and without any direction what so ever.
If you look at that last statement of mine and apply this to someone who put more value in things, power, money and control over other people without any real connection to himself (as a person) or his family and wife.....what is missing is the "real human connection" in every respect because he had everything he ever wanted for himself and spent his entire lifetime making sure he had it and would never be without it.
And now suddenly.....he realizes (a day late and a dollar short?) that something is still missing and now he feels lost, alone, unwanted and unloved. Maybe for the first time in his life but at that point.....it was too late to do anything about it since he could not see himself the way I just explained it in the highlighted statement.
If he could had said those words about himself and spoke to me or my mother in those terms.....we would have both been able to talk directly back to him about this and tell him what we thought he could do to change this situation for the better. In respect to my father.....this was the logic that was missing that my mother and I both clearly saw but he couldn't see this at all. No way...no how.....and never was going to at pain of death! Literally! He went to his death bed still unable to see himself in the reality of his new situation and never could understand exactly what went wrong?
What went wrong was....."that something was still missing and now he just felt lost, alone, unwanted and unloved." To a lessor degree....this was true but not because of him. As much as everyone else wanted to give these things to him from our side.....he set himself up to prevent it from happening in the first place by his own actions and behaviors which made it impossible for anyone to give him the very things that he was missing by these very actions and behaviors that prevented it. He was in all regards....his own worst enemy.
For what it's worth....this IS the valuable lesson my father taught me back then and one I have never forgotten so I don't make the same mistake. Seeing is believing as they say:)
J
Wow. Sounds exactly like my
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
Wow. Sounds exactly like my father-in-law.
What They Say Rosered?
Submitted by kellyj on
"Don't (poop) where you sleep." Not a bad one to keep in mind all things considered? :)
J
Can anyone beside me Identify w/ these lyrics...??
Submitted by c ur self on
"I Am A Rock"
A winter's day
In a deep and dark December;
I am alone,
Gazing from my window to the streets below
On a freshly fallen silent shroud of snow.
I am a rock,
I am an island.
I've built walls,
A fortress deep and mighty,
That none may penetrate.
I have no need of friendship; friendship causes pain.
It's laughter and it's loving I disdain.
I am a rock,
I am an island.
Don't talk of love,
But I've heard the words before;
It's sleeping in my memory.
I won't disturb the slumber of feelings that have died.
If I never loved I never would have cried.
I am a rock,
I am an island.
I have my books
And my poetry to protect me;
I am shielded in my armor,
Hiding in my room, safe within my womb.
I touch no one and no one touches me.
I am a rock,
I am an island.
And a rock feels no pain;
And an island never cries.
S&G....
My former mother in law's
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
My former mother in law's situation with her bored retiree micromanaging husband didn't change for the better, she said, until once when she was sweeping the kitchen, I think, with him dogging right behind her telling her that she was missing some crumbs and to do it over again, she wheeled around on him and said, "Oh, X, go get a BROOM" The threat of really having to do housework makes criticizers disappear from the room, like gorillas into the mist....
I reread this passage of what you wrote a couple times, J...It seems to be touching on something that's afoot in some of the relational problems we talk about on this site. It's a human condition statement.
If you look at that last statement of mine and apply this to someone who put more value in things, power, money and control over other people without any real connection to himself (as a person) or his family and wife.....what is missing is the "real human connection" in every respect because he had everything he ever wanted for himself and spent his entire lifetime making sure he had it and would never be without it.
What was it someone said on here, not too long ago? Which do you want, to get your way, or to have a marriage?
Yep J and Now....It's sad when relationships aren't our go too..
Submitted by c ur self on
This is such a true statement...When a Father or Mother leaves the home their small children are being raised in for what ever reason...They lose, or miss making altogether any real and lasting connection built on Love and trust.... They may pursue a relationship latter, and even mange to have a good one. This happened to me...My Dad left us when I was 5...And by the time my brother was 11 and I was 13 we got to spent our summer breaks with him...But we are more like good friends...We never bonded with our Father...
The song lyrics I posted above just reminded me of the struggles so many people experience trying to bond with someone who seems to be as distant as these lyrics....We can't get them any closer than the echo in the tunnel.....
C
But like you, when I was away from him things werent as bad as w
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
<<<But like you, when I was away from him things werent as bad as when we both were working at home, and we do. I really have had to use that door to the room that I'm using as my office, explain that the shut door means I am focusing on something and can't be interrupted. <<<
If I shut a door and told H that I couldn't be interrupted, he would find "emergencies" to interrupt me....or throw a tantrum and demand that I choose between him and the business, because in his mind, telling him that I can't be interrupted means that I'm putting work before him.
However, when I worked for OTHERS, he could handle that because (in his mind) it was strangers that were limiting his access to me, not me.
Overwhelmed. I totally
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
Overwhelmed. I totally believe you. I have no idea how it's going to be for the long haul on this kind of pattern in my relationship, I don't think I'm anywhere near dealing with the interrruptions you are, although yes there were times when there were so many that it was kind of crazy. I bet that he'd find some way to get through that door to you. One difference between our two lives is that my husband has his own work he has to be doing, all the time, which maybe balances things out for us better than what you're dealing with.
I don't think he saw the effect. or noticed the number of times he was interupting.. I found verbalizing to him what I needed to do (aka, I need two hours of work without interruption, like you did with your husband, explaining that you needed to work, while he watched the movie) about as effective as if I had been speaking to my husband in parakeet chirps.
I don't know what to suggest about those tantrums.... take the man to a child development specialist... sorry, that was a bad joke...I'm seriously concerned about what you're dealing with in the home. He's not being rational....so reason wont work...
Does he have to live with the downside consequences of his behavior? I don't know how to phrase my question quite right. That if he does X, he will set off Y happening?
Yes he has to live with the consequences, but he thinks....
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
Yes, he has to live with the consequences, but he doesn't believe he deserves them.
He is completely NOT self-aware in this regard. He doesnt believe that that he interrupts that much, and he doesn't believe that he often interrupts for nothing reasons.
He truly believes that he talks very briefly and with short sentences. This person couldn't say a short sentence if a gun were to his head! This morning he said, "I just need to say something for 15 seconds. 15 minutes later he was STILL talking. That is how NOT self aware he is.
Question OW?
Submitted by kellyj on
I'm curious OW? Like I said....I'm not here to defend anyone including myself.
What do you mean here? I'm really curious?
Yes, he has to live with the consequences, but he doesn't believe he deserves them. Are you saying he has no concept of cause an effect? (the logic that's missing?)
He is completely NOT self-aware in this regard. He doesnt believe that that he interrupts that much, and he doesn't believe that he often interrupts for nothing reasons. Literally? Not just being oblivious or out to lunch....but actually has no concept what so ever and is literally blind to these things?
He truly believes that he talks very briefly and with short sentences. I am totally aware that I do this sometimes and I don't believe that I don't.
Sometimes (only) but it's usually specific to verbally processing ( thinking out loud while trying to find the words and speaking ahead of myself) If I catch myself (which is all the time) I can not do this if I focus on it especially (live in person) . Live in person....I can not do this at all and mostly don't. Are you saying that this NEVER happens and he Always does this All of the time Always?
Are you saying.....in absolutes? He has absolutely no awareness of this even when it's is pointed out to him?
And if you have....does he deny it ...accuse you of all manner of things or just gets angry at you for pointing it out? I'm curious now?
Did his mother tell him he was perfect ? Along with her as well. We're all perfect and the rest of the world is.....well?
Was his mother and father highly biased and/or prejudice against (?) and highly suspicious of lots of other people they considered "outsiders?"
Are (were) they Highly critical of everyone across the board except for their own family member?
Were they members of a close nit group or community members who were isolated or have unusual beliefs outside the norm? Backwards or antiquated thinking?
And does he still believe her if she did? Even if she's not around anymore....can't remember if you said?
This person couldn't say a short sentence if a gun were to his head! This morning he said, "I just need to say something for 15 seconds. 15 minutes later he was STILL talking. That is how NOT self aware he is. Just so you know.....this (what you just described) is the related to the "now" not now" thing or losing track of time while hyper focusing on what he is saying. It is related to internal time keeping. ( an ADHD thing )
But that's not my concern. Are you saying when you say "he doesn't believe" in your references....that he's not just not wanting to admit it...or just being in denial and rationalizing....but literally....believes he does not do these things AT ALL? and thinks you are lying to him and making this all up?
This is concerning....and I can tell you .....this is not ADHD. I can give you an opinion at least ( with some personal insights into this ) but I want to make sure that I'm understanding you correctly (in absolutes....really?) I'm not looking for ways to refute you .....I'm actually very curious and trying to identify or seperate this all out because there seems to be something very much NOT ADHD in the sound of all this?
But.....I can't be sure unless I am certain that how you are wording this and how I am hearing it precisely? I have my suspisions and I can offer you some insight but I need to know this first?
J
my responses.....
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
I'm curious OW? Like I said....I'm not here to defend anyone including myself.
What do you mean here? I'm really curious?
Yes, he has to live with the consequences, but he doesn't believe he deserves them. Are you saying he has no concept of cause an effect? (the logic that's missing?)
A. There's a disconnect. A denial. A change or twist of story. H and one of our sons are estranged. H caused the estrangement, and he has to live with the consequences, but he doesn't believe he deserves them. In fact, he thinks he's a victim, and he'll even claim that it's my fault.
He is completely NOT self-aware in this regard. He doesnt believe that that he interrupts that much, and he doesn't believe that he often interrupts for nothing reasons. Literally? Not just being oblivious or out to lunch....but actually has no concept what so ever and is literally blind to these things?
A. Unless I were to record him, he would not believe that he does this. And if I did record him, he'd not only refuse to listen to the recording, but he'd be angry that he was recorded.
He truly believes that he talks very briefly and with short sentences.
I am totally aware that I do this sometimes and I don't believe that I don't.
Sometimes (only) but it's usually specific to verbally processing ( thinking out loud while trying to find the words and speaking ahead of myself) If I catch myself (which is all the time) I can not do this if I focus on it especially (live in person) . Live in person....I can not do this at all and mostly don't. Are you saying that this NEVER happens and he Always does this All of the time Always?
A. H is VERY long-winded...about EVERYTHING. He says too much, and there's rarely a filter. And he can't just ask a simple question. Instead, he'll say too much, and even answer his own question! (I hate going to a doctor with H because he'll start talking, and while the doctor is trying to answer, H is busy providing what he thinks the answer is. ) This is very annoying because when we're dealing with experts, I want to hear what the EXPERT is saying!!
Are you saying.....in absolutes? He has absolutely no awareness of this even when it's is pointed out to him?
A. when I try to point it out to him, he either gets angry or he'll insist that I'm wrong (or both!). If I say, "please, let the doctor tell us what's wrong (or electrician, or plumber, or other expert), then H will get mad. I hate having H around when we hire someone to fix something because I know that he's annoying the hell out of them either by "telling them what to do" (when H doesn't really know), or by just talking too much.
funny example: H was scheduled to have surgery that didn't require general anesthesia. Instead, the patient can choose to have some sort of local anesthesia...almost similar to an epidural for pregnant mom in delivery. My H didnt want to be put under, so he chose the local. Well, the surgery started, and H wouldnt shut up, so the surgeon turned to the anesthesiologist and ordered him to put H under. lol
And if you have....does he deny it ...accuse you of all manner of things or just gets angry at you for pointing it out? I'm curious now?
A) Yes, he denies and gets angry.
Did his mother tell him he was perfect ? Along with her as well. We're all perfect and the rest of the world is.....well?
A. H's mother NEVER told H that he was doing anything wrong. She was extremely permissive. In hindsight, H readily admits that his mom didn't parent her kids. She over-indulged and spoiled and never told them that they were doing anything wrong. EVER. H is telling the truth here. His siblings say the SAME thing. Their mom let them do whatever they wanted, and never told them "no." As further proof: H has a few sisters. Do you know of ANY mom who never had a fight with any of her daughters? lol. I certainly don't. But, H's mom never had an argument with any of her daughters. She never told them, "no," either. Normally, moms and daughters argue about clothes, makeup, curfews, cleaning their rooms, chores, and on and on. Not H's mom...EVER. And the daughters readily admit this, but also have trouble because THEY find themselves arguing with THEIR OWN daughters, and that seems foreign to them. lol
Was his mother and father highly biased and/or prejudice against (?) and highly suspicious of lots of other people they considered "outsiders?"
A. H's mom likes almost everyone. H's father dislikes almost everyone. H's dad distrusts and is cynical. H's dad also seems jealous of others and he responds by disliking them.
Are (were) they Highly critical of everyone across the board except for their own family member?
A. As mentioned above, H's dad dislikes nearly every outsider. H's dad is difficult to get along with and difficult to be around. He's very self-centered, too.
Were they members of a close nit group or community members who were isolated or have unusual beliefs outside the norm? Backwards or antiquated thinking?
And does he still believe her if she did? Even if she's not around anymore....can't remember if you said?
A. Because H's dad was very difficult to be around (kind of like how you described your dad), they did not socialize with other people except for maybe once a year the extended family would meet for a picnic. They never went to other people''s homes as guests, or visited other people. The kids played with other neighborhood kids, but H's family didn't socialize as a family. H's mom did socialize with the other moms while H's dad was working.
This person couldn't say a short sentence if a gun were to his head! This morning he said, "I just need to say something for 15 seconds. 15 minutes later he was STILL talking. That is how NOT self aware he is. Just so you know.....this (what you just described) is the related to the "now" not now" thing or losing track of time while hyper focusing on what he is saying. It is related to internal time keeping. ( an ADHD thing )
A. I realize that this is an ADHD, and likely some OCD as well.
Funny story: a few years before H retired, a co-worker left a message on our home answering machine. The person's message went something like this: "Hi, this Bob. I could get right to the point and leave a short message, but I'm going to do what you do and leave a very long-winded message filled with unnecessary information. The message will be long and likely use up your entire space on your message machine. (blah blah blah for five minutes talking about nothing until finally getting to the actual reason for the call).
I was in the room when H played the message and it was so embarrassing. Not only was it shocking to me, but it made me realize that he was driving people crazy at work as well (but probably not as much as he does to me...lol)
But that's not my concern. Are you saying when you say "he doesn't believe" in your references....that he's not just not wanting to admit it...or just being in denial and rationalizing....but literally....believes he does not do these things AT ALL? and thinks you are lying to him and making this all up?
A. He thinks that I'm lying. And, unless there's a witness to back me up, he won't believe me. And sometimes where there is a witness, he'll tell the witness that he/she is lying as well.
This is concerning....and I can tell you .....this is not ADHD. I can give you an opinion at least ( with some personal insights into this ) but I want to make sure that I'm understanding you correctly (in absolutes....really?) I'm not looking for ways to refute you .....I'm actually very curious and trying to identify or seperate this all out because there seems to be something very much NOT ADHD in the sound of all this?
But.....I can't be sure unless I am certain that how you are wording this and how I am hearing it precisely? I have my suspisions and I can offer you some insight but I need to know this first?
A. Oh I know that it's not only ADHD. H also has OCD and a personality disorder....likely borderline PD.
Saying I'm Sorry Isn't Enough OW
Submitted by kellyj on
I feel for you....deeply. I really do. To say I understand your pain would not be true (that would be my denial to say that) I know you pain is probably more real. The point of me asking you those questions was really to test myself and all that I have learned. I feel so very fortunate in many ways because I could see all the makings of having some real problems (much more than I experienced ) from my own experience which sounded similar to your H's family yet......his was far more extreme and neither of my parents went that far out there from your descriptions except for the way your H's father sounded being somewhat anti social (generic usage here).
In light of the things I was saying and talking about in my other comment to you really has come from the culmination of the years of therapy I have been in. Without having any concept of what therapy was or even knowing what myT was doing with me for quite some time......he was in essence......doing what I have been doing here and mostly applying attachment theory as his means to get me out of denial. It wasn't until I started asking a lot of questions about this that he really started opening the door and showing me how this all works. It was at that time that therapy really started getting interesting and fun. I told him it was like taking a college course in psychotherapy with only one student in the room....and I could pick the curriculum for the day and apply it all (selfishly) on myself. lol
I realized then that what he was teaching me was how to do what he does but for myself which was really the only way possible to get yourself out of the woods so to speak. It seemed by design......he wasn't treating me by giving me direction or assignments to go practice these skills on my own.....but more walking me through the tools and how to use both at the same time with him in the room and then asking me questions to see how (or if ) I could answer them.
It really was the feeling like I had been living in a fog for so much of my life from my own family experience and I realized in a very good way....that I wasn't living inside my own world made up inside my head (even though it was there) but more living in a fog (externally) that was created by my parents....that was simply obscuring my vision and I had been trying to find some clear space (all along) so I could just see out of it and get my bearings. I think that image of living inside a fog bank while still maintaining clear vision myself is a very accurate way of saying it.
All of this, before I say something to you....is just so you can get a better understanding of that experience to pass on a couple of things I learned from my own experience that might give you some food for thought or some ideas for yourself.
And yes.....I'm certainly not qualified to diagnose anyone but the common thread here in my experience are three types of character disorders: Borderline, Histrionic and Narcissism. And the only reason I now anything about these at all is because these are the personalities that have impacted my life at different times including my own family. If I took anything from therapy that I now have a pretty good understanding of....is that people do not fit neatly into these packages but at the same time.....do seem to fall more into one category or another based on the list of features in them.
My own personal observation and coming to a real understanding about his is that everyone has some of these features but more accurately.....we all could be placed into one of these categories even if you would be considered normal and healthy up to a point. It's not until you get past a certain point of dysfunction that they start to put a label on it and call it a dysfunction or disorder. And how do they know that? When it starts impacting your life in a negative way....otherwise....hypothetically speaking....a normal person who say....has a propensity or tendency to fit into say......Borderline.....is going to operate normally without a hitch but might have some stand out behaviors that are not going to be favorable with other people. More like negative or annoying quirks or habits that other people are not going to find very desirable. (to say the least) Yet by all accounts.....function just fine and are otherwise really great, good and normally flawed individuals just like everyone else.lol
And just so you know.....those questions I asked you came directly from witnessing some of those things that I know of both my Grandparents on either side of my family tree since it seems...... either these thing get passed on directly down the line....or they get watered down one generation at a time and get less and less by each generation. This is just my own personal observation based on my own family tree going back in time.
I became so curious about this that I actually started researching my family tree going back wards.....but instead of romanticizing my roots (a more normal motivations to do this kind of research)....I was looking for signs or clues of psychological disorders instead and looking at it that way! lo I know....it's kind of a strange thing to do.lol
The amazing thing from doing this kind of detective work on my family tree....was to discover how accurately my hunch seemed to play out. Not only that.....the information I gathered seemed to refute so many of the stories I had been told about my families lineage (especially from my father.....what a pile crap I had been told! lol) which all seemed to fit together and open my eyes up to just how delusional and fictitious the beliefs that were told to me really were. And of course.....I believed the stories since.....why should I question them? Why would you lie or make up stories about yourself? This just did not seem to make any sense to me until I understood what denial really was and how this gets passed on to you by your parents.
I suppose most people don't really care if these past "tall tales" or " lunker fish stories" in their families are true or not and it's fun to just romanticize them and keep them the way the are.....but in light of the fog that can be created when these things get too far a field.....it served me to question them all and look at them from in a different light instead......TO GET OUT OF THE FOG!!! lol hoo boy!
Fast forward to now in the present time......another really interesting observation between my older sisters and I. Since I was the only one who did what I did and went to therapy.....(since I suspect both my sisters having ADHD on some level ) it really does appear differently in women in a lot of ways comparing it too myself based just on them. It seems they did not run into a lot of the same issues I did but not without these things showing up in different ways but without the same impact on their husbands in the same way.
The of big one of course is the one that you are having your own issues with and that has to do with making a living/income or income producing. That really does seem to be where a lot of these conflicts begin. If an ADHD woman is not required to be the bread winner....then these symptoms don't appear to have the same impact in the same way as they do for a man.
I also discovered from reading something about the diagnosis of ADHD and currently....they believe that about 70% ? (if memory serves me) of people with ADHD are not diagnosed yet and the majority of those are women. This differs from what they originally thought not that many years ago. That interesting tid bit of info was really telling for me. When I inserted that into my mothers family tree and the stories that went along with it (plus my own interactions with the people when I was young)....suddenly, a big light bulb went on and the picture became much more clear than before.
So what came out of this for me was a realization that seemed painfully obvious to me. It seems.....not only ADHD gets passed along by generations....but so do the behaviors that usually get associated with it BUT.....the behaviors themselves seem more of a common side effect not actually caused by the ADHD itself. As I apply this to myself compared to my sister for example (still in denial w/out treatment or therapy).....I see a marked difference between myself and them.
And too the point....I was always more of the red haired step child in the family and they thought I was the strange one! ha ha I remember my mother telling me a couple times....talking about my oldest sister and me saying " you and XXXX were always kind of odd " Like really Mom.." look who's talk'in.' ha ha
In context to her statement about my oldest sister and I.....we are actually much more main stream in comparison to my other sister in which my mother was referring too in comparison. lol Confusing when growing up? I'll say. Talk about mixed messages.....unbelievable! Repeat UNBELIEVABLE! LOL
If you look at this for what it is......my moms denial was putting the stamp of approval on the child who was more in denial like her....and calling the two children who were less in denial "odd". And the fact that I was the scape goat for not fitting the mold in my own family and became the identified patient (lots of fights and arguments with my parents over seemingly everything when I was growing up also point to one HUGE obvious difference that seemed to save my life in that respect........
Exposure......... and getting out of Dodge as much and as often as possible any chance I could get. I highlighted that last statement for you since that was where I was headed in all of this for your benefit. If I had to give only one bit of advise (without the long winded explanation for verification and reference lol )....that would be the one I would tell you for your of sake and peace of mind. Really. It seems the more exposure and human interaction with as many different people as possible out in the world.....the healthier and happier I have become. It just seems to work that way and as obvious as this might seem.....it also seems the only real way to get yourself out of the fog of living around someone who is hopelessly lost in it and not have that fog start clouding your vision too.
That's my lifetime and years of experience condensed down into one simple statement and the advise to go along with it. I'm sure you've probably noticed already how much better you feel just to get out and around people who not like your H. I encourage you to do it and I already see your dilemma. If you take why your H is trying to keep such a tight rope around your neck when it comes to going away or getting out without him.....I think subconsciously.....the fear of the outside or of people (prejudice, suspicion, criticism etc) falls right in line with being different but not wanting anyone else to notice.
That's the definition of denial right there. If you look at what I described from my experience with this.....it's really the denial that is the cause for all the problems not as much just the ADHD symptoms.
And yes OW.....my completely unprofessional, untrained and amateur opinion from the sound of it falls into the Borderline category for your H as well. You H seems more like that comparing to my experience with my father and his unfortunate proclivity. Similar but yet distinctly different. My father was not delusional or was not in control of himself what so ever. He appeared as someone who was in complete control and knew exactly what he was doing at all times. The thing that stood out about my father more than anything else (highly unusual in my opinion ) is that he seemingly....had no past.
He had no past stories to tell (very few) and never spoke of his family especially his own father?( aside from his younger sister (my Aunt) who everyone loved...me too. Funny? She should have been a stand up comedian! And their little brother (my uncle) who was the complete opposite of my father and was seemingly just a really nice guy in every respect) I never met my Grandfather and only heard stories passed along by my mother. In my entire lifetime.....I never heard my father speak of his father to me even once. Like he never existed. I found that to be the weirdest thing that I have ever come across in anyone I have ever met?
J
My father, too...
Submitted by Delphine on
Almost never mentioned his family. Once upon my questioning him, he said he and his mother had been very close. She died of pernicious anemia when he was 13. He also mentioned that his father didn't care for him, but was partial to his sister. All of that sounds like a recipe for emotional disaster, to me. It helped me understand his rage. I don't think he understood it, himself. He was in denial about his issues.
My mother (who I now think was ADHD) had big abandonment issues, as well. Passed on to me.
Delphine
Yep
Submitted by DependentOrigination on
Once I had a car accident, and was severely traumatized by it ( large, high speed, multi vehicle accident with injured children). My husband INSISTED I repeat all the detail of the accident and then typed it up in a document and INSISTED I give it to the cops and the insurance adjuster, even though they took a verbal statement from me and didn't want it. He became extremely angry when I didn't force them to take it.
He will also neglect me for days, or leave something to the very last minute, and then get angry when I am not immediately available to help him. He will call me about 7 times in a row, and then have his son call me, and then when I call him back, it is about something that has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with me... Ie. Keys to his trailer, his check book, his taxes, etc.
So yes.
Laugh, say REALLY!...smile and walk away, give it no thought....
Submitted by c ur self on
Dealing w/ the swing from Extreme independence to extreme dependence is one of those things many people must deal with in a spouse who suffers with disorganization among other things.....
The more we do not fall into the trap of being manipulated or controlled by another person, the more they are forced to be responsible adults....Try to not allow your emotions to get strained w/ this child like living....And things like the letter he was pressuring you to write....Calmly tell him....I've made my decision and the best thing for you to do is accept it....Never be scared to tell a disrespectful spouse that they are out of line and walk away and ignore Control and manipulation attempts....
The more a spouse enables this kind of behavior; the worst they get, and more unstable emotionally we get.....Two Negatives....
Big Boy Britches for all adults, it works every time...Painful lessons for many of us though!....:)
C
Thanks C.....You Summed This Up So Well
Submitted by kellyj on
"The more a spouse enables this kind of behavior; the worst they get, and more unstable emotionally we get.....Two Negatives...."
-1 x -1 = -2 Two wrongs done make one right? lol At least when you do the math!! lol But I think there is more too it than fun with numbers? lol All these different topics on this forum about the same thing....
Love is not enough
Compassion
Empathy
blah, blah , blah....only in terms with what to you do about this? All of those things are good...but they won't fix this specific problem?
As I am better seeing this all the time. A person in denial has got it ass backwards? And so enabling behavior..is just reinforcing the same ass backwards behavior?
Doing the math again -1 x 1 = -1 Which at least...your matching equal force in the opposite direction and it leaves the negative....right where it started? If you are not doing something yourself in a neutralizing way yourself ....it will multiply!! Which means...you have to do more than do nothing?
-1 x 0 = 0....which means nothing will ever come out of this on your part in dealing with a -1 who is in denial?
1 x 1 = 1...of course? Two makes 1...as it should be...but isn't...with the negative in there screwing things up? If you're trying to fill in the gaps yourself all you get is double mint gum? ( oops ) I mean....double the trouble and effort..and double the fun which is me just factitious...and saying -2 . That's what you get..,.when you become an enabler and try and do what is not your job in the first place? It's a lot easier...to speak up and calmly say ( fill in space here instead lol )......NO works too....if they refuse to listen? Let them figure it out which they will..as long as someone else isn't doing it for them? I've found with my wife....it may take her a while...but she will get there by herself...with no input from me ( or as little as absolutely necessary )
J
Logic Missing Ahead...Procede With Caution! lol
Submitted by kellyj on
Ow....I don't know why but the news reel about the college students that hacked into the Amber/Freeway alert reader board saying " Caution....Zombies ahead, next 5 miles" popped into my head when I read this. Not in direct reference to your H but I think you get the point. lol
Approaching this from my own similar experience in the past with different people and applying my ADHD symptoms here as well. What you seeing are just the symptoms of something else.... but that's not saying it doesn't look like exactly what it looks like. If that weren't the case.....we wouldn't be here right?
But you saying your H has child like thinking is really true but yet....he's not a child? So why does it look like child like thinking and reasoning? Because something is missing and what's missing is the same logic that's missing in a child. That doesn't mean he is immature like a child or even thinks like one....the only similarity and why it does is because he's not connecting what he wants to the end of the chain of logic that would tell him why these things he says and his behavior doesn't doesn't appear to make logical sense. Because they don't. Because it's missing the path of logic that gets him from A to B in his thinking.
What's missing is this path of logic and that's what denial will do for you. The parts that include that logic....are the parts that he is missing to see because they are included in what he doesn't want to (or can't ) see. Once you include the missing parts to the picture.....I'm sure he would be able to see it too. That's because he's not a child and has this ability once that happens. Makes sense? It pretty much tells you what needs to happen first? I hope that narrows it down for you?
J
Starting A New Thread
Submitted by kellyj on
It occurred to me that much of what is being discussed here could be examined another way but as I am trying not to do and just confuse this issue ....I think it is appropriate to do this by starting a different thread in order to include my thoughts here. So many times...I remember things I've learned but it becomes difficult to apply them to a conversation without just confusing everyone who does not have the same understanding about this as I have (getting on the same page together)
Whether or not these insights are of any use to anyone is really the only fear I have in including them since they do help me differentiate things out so I can have a better understanding of them myself. What I can't know is if this will be of use to anyone else?
The new topic is about Ethical Thinking and Rationalizations
Hello, Overwhelmed,
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
Hello, Overwhelmed,
I like C's idea of scheduled unavailability. I'm certainly having to learn to use the door on the room I'm using as an office at home. But you touched on something more: Well, when I'm doing the aspects that H hates, he's often annoyed that I'm largely unavailable to him.
I dont know what it is with the annoyance if the spouse is occupied and not instantly available.
I've got a question, do you think your husband notices and mentally assimilates the fact that you're working?
How much does he notice about what you're doing from hour to hour in the house?
Occams Razor OW
Submitted by kellyj on
Definition of Occam's razor. : a scientific and philosophic rule that entities should not be multiplied unnecessarily which is interpreted as requiring that the simplest of competing theories be preferred to the more complex or that explanations of unknown phenomena be sought first in terms of known quantities.
Dear OW,
I am sincerely wanting to say something to you that I have been struggling with for quite some time now and it just occurred to me why that is? I have read much of the things you have said in all of the comments you have made up until now (including this one) and something just was not fitting together in many of the things you've said about your H. Not in how you feel the emotions you have behind them.....but in the conclusions that you have drawn from your experience with your H.
To say this another way......I see something here that possibly you have not considered and because of that.....what you believe (you're conclusions supporting your beliefs) might have alternative explanation than the one you believe is true?
Backing up here for a moment.......you started this thread by asking a question....."How do I address this issue?" If you believe that you are correct in (WHAT?) you believe and there is no wiggle room for an alternative explanation.....one might assume that how (you feel about this, is how you feel about this).......... and there is no reason to compete with you or try and convince you otherwise about how you feel or argue anything differently. When it comes to your feelings that is?
In the reality of what you are living through right now with your H.......how you feel is really the most important part in this. Everything else can pretty much go to the way side and is not really relevant to how your H is affecting how you feel (ABOUT)................??? I left that blank intentionally because I don't know how you really feel about much else aside from what is apparent....clearly!
If you believe me when I say that I feel a strong connection between what you are going through in comparing myself and how I felt in my past (concerning a similar sounding situation and personality to go along with it ie: your H) and forget about everything else for a moment...everything else being .....ADHD, NPD, BPD etc. etc. etc.....and look back at all the things you've said here on this forum about your husbands family and childhood situation (just from memory?)....boy fighting with each other (constantly?).....competing with each other (chaos and disorder in the environment).......every man, woman and child fending for themselves (every man for themselves! man overboard, abandon ship!).....and a mother, who from the sound it....was too preoccupied with what ever she had going on to have done much to prevent this all from happening?
Or.......was she the cause of this happening and/or the reason why it happened? Not just from not preventing it or did nothing to stop it....but was (not by intention) but by her own dysfunction......at the core of why your H turned out the way he did? Consider everything your H has said about his family and all the stories he's told you? In what little I've heard you say in bits and pieces.....I've gathered that your H thinks or feels that it's the chaos and his sibling rivalry that has much to blame in how he is now? At least that's what he believes? And his father of course.....you can't forget about him in this. He had a part to play as well?
But what are we talking about here? WHAT is the issue really? This is what you are wanting to know how to address? This is what is affecting you and how you feel and that is what is most important here? Isn't this why you are coming here wanting to find answers to help YOU... right now ....right here? That's really why you are here isn't it?
I'm saying....this is why I'm here too if I am to be honest with myself? I didn't come here to defend people with ADHD or myself for that matter.....I came here to find answers to the same questions you have for almost the identical reasons. If you stop right here and don't think past that last statement and question it by trying to apply what you know and what you feel to it......I fear you will be missing the reason (the WHAT).....for all the problems you are facing with your H.
All I can do for you is tell you what I've learned.......but why am I here finding answers? Why is it important that I have these answers for myself? These answers about myself don't necessarily make me feel good in fact.....sometimes it's down right depressing for me. Having to face the truth that is not only not flattering or things I really don't like to think about all the time.....the reality of having ADHD means.....if I don't want to continue perpetuating my past and move on from there to something better instead of having it keep coming back to haunt me over and over...I have to look at it with a critical eye and that means looking at myself in a critical way so I can do something about it. The goods parts are not a problem for me.....it's the not so good parts that I really have to focus on.
This takes an incredible amount of stamina and internal fortitude to keep doing it on a daily basis (which is what is required to succeed) and sometimes......it's just exhausting and overwhelming. But I know if I don't....I will not be able to do what I have to do in order to keep this separate from the people I care about since.....it ain't their problem.....it's mine.
If I am to take responsibility for myself and how I affect other people.....this is what I HAVE to do and there's just no two ways around it. Either I do it.....or I don't. This is my choice to do and no one is forcing this on me. If that were the case.....I wouldn't do it ( with colorful expletives included in my response to anyone who would try!! lol )
This is a solo journey that only I can do anything about but at the same time.....I've come far enough down that road to look back and see how far I've come and had the experience behind me to show me where I started and everything in between up to this point. To say I didn't start where your husband is now would be a lie. But in turn.....to say that this is where I am now would be equally untrue. I know where I am and I now from that experience exactly what I know..... and what I know is the truth (do date).
So if you take what I am saying at face value and not read into it or use what you think you know to dispute what I'm saying.....I can tell you the answer to at least....the WHAT part of your question. The how part that your asking is something that I'm not really sure I can be much help to you because in a very real sense......only you know the answer to that?
But knowing the WHAT? part....... is the first thing you need to know before you will know how to do anything about it that will make a difference in how you feel which is the most important part of why you are here? This is where I am afraid (for you) because you are looking for answers and trying to apply the wrong thing to find it. I am saying this straight up that I know WHAT.......IT is. For sure! lol
Occum's Razor.....what's the simplest and least complicated reason to explain your H's behavior? Forget about what you know and please listen to what I am about to say.
So, H likes to say things like, "I don't care about the money, so I don't care if you give up the business." This is a rationalization on his part. It's not lying as far as he's concerned and he completely believe's this and it's the truth as far as he's concerned. I'll bet he says the same thing in the same words exactly as he says it each time doesn't he? And he says it over and over right? You been hearing these same lines he say's repeatedly and they don't change do they?
Why does he believe this? Where did this come from? I do know the answer to this with a great amount of certainty. Rationalizations come from trying to re-explain the truth of your reality in order to undo the what is really true by omitting the parts that are not palatable would cause you to see something that is too difficult to bear the fallout if you were to see it for what it really is.
Denial.....in it's very essence.....is denial of what is really true.
That is total BS because he'd never give up his pricey healthcare needs. His (false) claim is all part of the now, not now thing going on.
In the moment.....in the now......this is what you see and it's true and you know it. It is total Bullshit and you said it as it is. I believe you because I know you are right on the money.
H is like a small child who does NOT want to be told, "just a minute." Yes....just like a child when Mom gets on the phone and now your kid ( who was quiet before) as soon as you get on the phone with someone else (talking to another person who is now taking Moms attention away from them to someone else now) starts acting out and making a bunch of noise.....pulling on your pants leg....."Mommy, mommy...look at this. Mommy Mommy....Look at what I'm doing. Mommy Mommy....Look at ME!!! whaaah!!!
When he's calm and we talk about it, he "understands," but at the moment he's talking, (the now, not now issue), he flips out if I tell him "just a minute". Forget about the now not now issue....that's not what's happening. Either that.... or you're understanding of what the "now not now" phenomenon related to ADHD is not what you think it is.
This is not that.....this is something completely different and unrelated to what you saying I am sure of it. The now not now issue is not behavioral. It's not related to emotional related behaviors at all. This is possibly (but not necessarily) indirectly associated with ADHD but you are skipping right over the WHAT and trying to apply ADHD incorrectly to what I am talking about or the reason this is happening. I am absolutely sure of this! In this case...the horse is ADHD....the cart (the what) is still the main problem and what you really need to know before you will feel better yourself.
Feeling better for you means understanding what you are seeing and having some control of it by your own actions and behaviors that follow. The first link in the chain is your own thinking....from that will change how you feel .....and then your actions or the energy you emit will follow that. And in turn......this is what your H see's and feels from you in that order. You dig? As of now.....this is all you've got to work with. This is where it starts. Change the thinking and the feelings and emotions you don't want will change with it and you will feel better and that's what this is all about. What goes around come around? Your H is is part of (or on the opposite side of the same circle) and that's what's coming around to you to even if you don't realize it.
For the moment....forget about all the other diagnosis as well (BPD, NPD). Not saying these aren't related....but you don't have to have these to have the same thing for the same reason. Getting back to the real "what" here. The real truth. Remember....it's not that complicated.
For awhile, I did get a job as a full timesales job, but it had no flexibility with hours (impossible to get a day off), and H still wasn't lifting a finger around the house, so we decided that I should leave that job. H had lots of flexibility with his job, and we BOTH resented the fact that I was literally a prisoner to my job's required hours.
Are you sure about that? About the fact that he was he resented the fact that you were a prisoner to your job and the required hours? How about he resented something and call it good right there. Moving on.
Once the kids were raised, H began hinting that I should work. And, whenever he was mad at me for some minor or NOTHING reason, he'd yell at me to get a job. (This was when H was working and he refused to lift a finger around the house for ANY reason, even if I was seriously ill.)
Why? Was it the money....or was it the security and freedom that money gives you? Him here in other words. Why would someone be so obsessed with these things to override common sense at the exclusion of how this affected you?
There are a few possibilities here: >>> 1) denial <<<< 2) Greed 3) He's completely indifferent to you and doesn't care about anyone but himself and could care less about you and how you feel
H has some expensive habits and insists on a certain brand-name Rx that our insurance doesn't cover, and is VERY expensive.
Why? Why is so important that he get the best or have the feeling that he is getting the best care for himself that money can buy even if this isn't actually true? What was it that you said earlier....the whole family throws perfectly good things out and says their broken even when their not? Why would they do that and who's the one who started this practice?
Let me guess.....Mom? I don't remember if you said so (when you said this) but that an educated guess? Am I wrong. I'd be surprised if I was? Less important that I'm right....more important in confirming the WHAT. ( there's your first hint )
Now that H is retired, he NOW doesn't mind doing some chores around the house.. He is happy to help me with certain aspects of my business
Why? Doe he like to do house chores and help you with work......or does he just like being with or around you? How else can he be near you or with you unless he helps you do your work.
Why? He also wants to keep the money coming in. Forget about greed and so he can spend more money on himself.....go back to the security it gives him and the ability to give himself things he feels he needs. Things that he didn't get when he was young ie: things that are special or of special symbolic importance to his family/mother that he didn't get enough of?
Why? Because now he partially disabled and retired.....he's afraid of what might happen to him if you stop making money and leave him helpless?
I'm fine with that. In fact, H repeatedly says that he'd "freak out," if he had to do what I do.
Why? Because he knows he can't do what you do and this would be overwhelming for him and he knows it.
He hates the "interruptions" of calls, texts, emails, etc from customers.
Mommy....Mommy.....pay attention to me......pleeeeaase!!!!!!! I need....I need!!!!!! Pleeease!!!!!!!!!!! Help me....I'm hurt. Help me.....I need you!!!!!! Pleeeaasee!!!
Did his mother come to him when he needed her? Or was she too busy for him and neglected to meet his needs when he was frightened or scared? Was she too busy for him and he felt left alone or he really needed her.....she was never there for him? Or worse....made to feel like an inconvenience to her and was mocked, shunned or made to feel like a burden to her when he needed her attention and love? Did she favor the children who were well behaved or was she completely indifferent her entire gaggle of geese?
When he's calm, he just says that he's glad that I handle those things............
............and he does a very good job within those specific parameters (low stress/low anxiety efforts). He has NO INTEREST is doing anything that has to do with frequently updating 6 websites, customer contact, billing, invoices, record keeping, etc.
Sounds like you are very busy?
Since this business crosses time zones, I have to literally "be open" 24/7 in responses and customer care.
Well, when I'm doing the aspects that H hates, he's often annoyed that I'm largely unavailable to him.
I never placed such demands on him. I treated his job as a very important aspect because it was what supported our family. I never looked at it as, "you spend more time at work than with me, so you must think the job is more important than your wife and kids." I would never had thought anything like that!
Why? "(his mother) spend more time at ( ) than with (him), so (he) think the job is more important than (he is)"
Why? Because it was true.
What were the boys fighting over? Why were they in competition with each other? What resources were they so protective of. Why do you think people with ADHD are resource hogs? What resources are they hogging and why? Attention? Approval? Validation? I think this is very likely the case with your husband and that's the reason for it. In fact....I would lay money on it.
Think about it? What did he get from working and making lots of money? What was he driven to satisfy that was missing inside him. what was the underlying motivation behind the things he'd say.
Where do these rationalizations come from? These endless intrusive negative ruminating thoughts about himself that are plaguing him for answer too?
If denial is protection from emotional pain and the truth...... at the core, is shame and feeling unwanted and unloved. This didn't come out of no where. The truth is always based on reality and it starts where everyone starts....at the beginning.
In the beginning.....you only have one relationship that you know of or are aware of. It's all you know for quite some time. That relationship is with a woman and that woman is your mother.
Do you remember the day you were born?
Or your 1rst birthday?
How about your 2nd birthday?
Even your 3rd birthday?
They use to tell us that you don't remember anything until you get to be a certain age which is true based on what most people can remember. I think that was a rather clever and convenient form of denial in itself though...... quite obviously the truth that no one can argue against.......until now.
If that were true ( and I think on some levels it is ).....then it would protect parents for the damage and neglect they have done to their own children.
Ignorance...is bliss as they say?
I can tell you....reality is no walk in the park. Ignorant bliss is.....well.....ignorant bliss. lol At least that's what I told myself when I was still in denial.
But reality is a hell of a lot better than denial I can tell you. Those answers I've been looking for? They replace the rationalizations that I learned from the lies I was told to believe.
Despite all the pain and suffering I endured from the failure of my parents. They were not God like creatures that I needed to obey and honor like I was taught. They were flawed and human just like me. The funny thing about denial when it is working in this way. It conveniently omits the parts of these lessons that say the same hold true going the other way.
They're in there alright....you just have to look for them. But that would take some effort....and if it's an inconvenience for some people in that those aren't the parts that they want to see.......well, why bother?
It won't make me feel good for all that effort anyway right? And it's all about feeling good....instead of feeling bad. I know........ I'll just take a short cut an avoid all of that pain and hassle? Yeah....that's it. That's the ticket! lol
At least that's what I told myself in the past....not so much anymore...and it feels a hell of lot better when you earn it than when it's just given too you!!
Denial is easy and it doesn't cost you anything except your life. That's all.
J
For some reason, I can't copy
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
For some reason, I can't copy/paste like I did earlier.
Yes, much of this is because of how he was parented. You're right.......H's mom practiced denial so that she wouldn't have to face reality. SHE ALSO often said, "I don't care about money"....but she spent like a drunken sailor. So, as you've pointed out, being in denial about money was the escape she needed to avoid facing the realities of her crazy spending.
To this day, I do NOT understand why H's dad (who was difficult, extremely difficult), never yelled at his wife, even though he'd yell at everyone else. He never got after her for spending WAY TOO MUCH money ALL TH TIME and kept them near-broke all the time.
Entitlement Comes in Different Forms OW
Submitted by kellyj on
I think this is really at the heart of what you are hitting up against OW. Look at this one statement you made about your H's mother...."You're right.......H's mom practiced denial so that she wouldn't have to face reality. SHE ALSO often said, "I don't care about money"....but she spent like a drunken sailor. So, as you've pointed out, being in denial about money was the escape she needed to avoid facing the realities of her crazy spending."
I think this is really at the crux of many of these issues you are facing with your H. Yes...definitely denial on her part....but denial of WHAT? I've got to say something here that is really obvious to me but possibly not obvious to everyone else. These statements (or declarations) are all rationalizations and if you understand what a rationalization is....it;s an excuse.....or excusing yourself for doing something? But on a deeper level.....the answer to your question is right there in front of you staring you in the face.
But why was his mother so permissive?
Why did she spend money on herself with reckless abandon but feel the need to counter this with a statement of the opposite (the opposite of what was true) excusing herself for her own actions?
Why did (who ever) eat the extra pieces of cake at my friends house and pissed the whole family off but wouldn't admit it?
Why did Delphine"s 3 year old dive in and go to town on the chicken without thinking about the consequences of his actions?
And why did does your husband do the things he does?
Only someone completely self-focused does this. This is one possibility? But many times ADHD look like selfishness (it does without question) but when it come to focus....I'd say in the case of ADHD.....it's probably more likely being singularly focused (hyper focused at the exclusion of everything else ) and just not paying attention to detail or being myopic and kind of blind to other things. Self-focused (or self centered) vs singularly focused or myopic.....the net result are the same and they look the same but one is more just thoughtless and inconsiderate and the other one is a manifestation of ADHD ( an ADHD symptom) and doesn't have anything to do with being thoughtless.
But let's not get hung up there and keep moving on to the other possibilities shall we. Let's. lol
Before I do that....I want to say some things about myself in comparison the Delphins's son since she brought this up. I have been and still am a slender person. This was how I was made and have been this way all my life. But in respect to food.....I've never been too food motivated. I tend to eat small portions and can go a long time in between meals without a problem. At Halloween (as a kid) ....the candy I would collect would still be a bowl in March uneaten. My mother would have cookies, cup cakes candy and all kinds sweets and things like this available all the time....sitting out where you could help yourself any time you wanted and we were free to indulge ourselves at will.
In fact.....the running joke at our home came from the fact that I would forget to each lunch many times and when asked if I ate......I'd have to stop and think about it and then go.."ah???....I guess I forgot?" No joke. And remember.....I have ADHD.
What I'm saying is......this thing about being a resource hog? I'm just not seeing anything like this in myself so can't explain it along with having ADHD? At least in the context of sharing resources?
But I can tell you why I'm like this and where it came from in me. Aside from food being out and available any time we wanted it.....there was a very tight control on things like money, spending, gifts, treats, toys, or anything you wanted which required you to get permission first and go through my mother or father first....for everything. (except for food).
I also did not get an allowance. and money was never handed to you without having to earn it by doing some kind of chore of job. There was no per diem, no allowance and no entitlement to anything. This went to the extreme in a very unhealthy way since all decisions, permissions and allowances for anything (outside of food) was tightly controlled and restricted to the point....that the effect this has on you to start making you feel like you are not entitled to anything. In other words.....you don't deserve it. That starts extending outwardly to how you feel about yourself...... That you don't deserve to have ANY-THING including....not being treated fairly and thinking that you deserve that too.(seeds of victim mentality right there) If you can't be like everyone else (or like us your parents)....you haven't earned it so you don't get anything.
So when you go and see food sitting out available to at anytime......you're already guilty before you even take the first bite. You don't deserve it so you pass it by because you feel no ownership to anything. Nothing is yours and you are living in someone else's house. It's their food not yours......even in your own home.
This condition of scarcity can play out going either way I think but going back to a permissive parent who enables their child from their own dysfunction would send the message that "I'm entitled to do the same as Mom does and have anything I want?
H's Mom's denial was that she was an entitled person and she deserves to have what she wants at all times and uses those rationalizations to tell herself the exact opposite.
That's the WHAT here not ADHD in how I am seeing this?
Entitlement = "I-deserve- (IT)." Those three words are heading into dangerous territory any time you start going down that road in your thinking. It's what advertisers try to play on and hook you into buying their products.
"You deserve to treat yourself to the best of luxury that money can afford you...call NOW!" Right. Anything you say Kim Kardashian lol
Either from feeling like a victim and never getting what you want so your entitled to be treated like a wounded helpless person who deserves to be care after and in need of special attention and treatment.....
or
An arrogant self centered person who feels entitled because they are special and above everyone else.
Either way.....above or below......entitlement is entitlement and looks the same in both cases.
Except for 3 years olds. But I think that's the time to learn how not to be entitled. If you miss the boat and never learned it back then.....
I think this is what happens? I'll give you an example of what I had to teach my H early on (and shocking that I would have to teach this to someone who had several siblings - normally this lesson would have been taught AT HOME as a CHILD.)
In your case OW.....I think you are absolutely right. Is this an ADHD things? I'm not sure? But that "Spare the Rod...Spoil the Child" mentality that I grew up with went in the extreme opposite direction and I internalized this to mean that I don't deserve, or am not entitled to anything? And I have ADHD.
Nature or Nurture? Attachment Theory hard at work here......I'm putting my money on Nurture not ADHD.
J
Primitive Defenses
Submitted by kellyj on
Why did she spend money on herself with reckless abandon but feel the need to counter this with a statement of the opposite (the opposite of what was true) excusing herself for her own actions?
Denial - of >>>> shopping addiction, retail therapy ?
Reaction Formation - saying the opposite of what is true. Statements or declarations of the opposite.
Compartmentalizing - shopping addiction in one compartment vs I'm not a shopping addict in the other one. And the ability to keep these things separate so they never connect together at the same time.
And you wonder why arguing with this gets you no where? The best course of action again......don't engage! It's hard enough to debate with one issue at a time....let alone 3?
3 against 1(you) are not favorable odds in favor of you winning!
"Procede with caution.....logic missing ahead! Is it further to New York....or by plane?" What it is...my brother (and sisters)
J
Captain May I?
Submitted by jennalemone on
This went to the extreme in a very unhealthy way since all decisions, permissions and allowances for anything (outside of food) was tightly controlled and restricted to the point....that the effect this has on you to start making you feel like you are not entitled to anything. In other words.....you don't deserve it. That starts extending outwardly to how you feel about yourself...... That you don't deserve to have ANY-THING including....not being treated fairly and thinking that you deserve that too.(seeds of victim mentality right there) If you can't be like everyone else (or like us your parents)....you haven't earned it so you don't get anything.
Oh my, J! I have this exact thing in my upbringing. I have NEVER been directed to (or had a conscious thought about) this. I have wondered where I have this ever present need for "permission". I had always looked to bosses, teachers, self proclaimed experts, The Bible, hierarchy of some kind to tell me what I should do or allowed to do. But could not put a finger on a source. I will be thinking of this and rereading it later.
Me Too Jenna
Submitted by kellyj on
It took me a long time to figure this out....and that's what it really boiled to too. It's good to now why you feel the way you do sometimes expecially when you can't explain it before. I'm glad that helped:)
J
Why do you think people with ADHD are resource hogs? What resou
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
<<<
Why do you think people with ADHD are resource hogs? What resources are they hogging and why? Attention? Approval? Validation? I think this is very likely the case with your husband and that's the reason for it. In fact....I would lay money on it.
<<<
I find that many people with ADHD are resource hogs because they tend to be self-centered, self-focused, and spend little time wondering, "Is this fair," "am I expecting or demanding more of someone's time or resources?
I'll give you an example of what I had to teach my H early on (and shocking that I would have to teach this to someone who had several siblings - normally this lesson would have been taught AT HOME as a CHILD.)
Imagine that you're at a party and there are about 15 guests. The hostess brings out a plate of about 15 cupcakes. Would you quickly grab 2 or 3 cupcakes? Well, you might if you were a 3 year old or you hadn't been taught ANY manners.
An early red flag that H was a resource hog (and oblivious to the needs of others) was on Christmas we went to my aunt's home for a lovely very early dinner (around 2 pm). Dessert was served around 5pm. Then around 7pm, my aunt asked if anyone was hungry for a sandwich. Several guests (mostly men) raised their hands. Understandably...it was really like a later dinner. My aunt returned from the kitchen with a platter of about 6-8 large submarine like sandwiches ....where ONE was plenty big....filled with a thick slice of prime rib and some cheese.
With TWO HANDS, my H immediately grabbed TWO sandwiches (one in each hand). Not only did this look very uncouth, but it was embarrassing because obviously, there wasn't enough for people to have two, and now likely someone wasn't going to get a sandwich. My aunt quickly returned to the kitchen to make another sandwich (thankfully she had enough to do so).
Later, I told my H how impolite that was, and how it's proper to take ONE, then let everyone else have a chance, and then AFTER eating the one, IF he's still hungry and IF there are any left, then maybe take another....but only after making SURE that everyone has had a chance to get one.
In more recent times: H and I both like hummas. Buying one large container isn't enough, since H will mow thru one like it's water. I tried buying two and putting his name on one and my name on the other. FAIL...he still ate both, often before I'd even have a chance at a tiny spoonful. Then I tried buying THREE, putting his name on TWO and my name on ONE. FAIL AGAIN. Buying FOUR gives me somewhat of a chance to have a serving or two with some pita chips. With FOUR in the fridge, I'll open mine, take a little bit, and typically will either never see the container again, or will see a tiny bit remaining.
Only someone completely self-focused does this.
When our kids were younger, they would often have to bring an assigned item for a class function (like soda, water bottles, chips, cookies, whatever). The first time, I put the purchased or baked items on the kitchen counter (with a reminder to everyone that this was for XXXX to take to school the next day). The next morning, I woke up to find that H had mowed thru the food or drink. He said "I forgot." H got mad when he saw that I was clearly annoyed, and refused to go and replace it. The next time, I put a huge sign on the item saying, "Don't touch, For XXXX school tomorrow." Fail again. And again H was angry and refused to go early to the store to replace. After that, I would just put a sign reminding me and the kids to bring the item the next day, but I would HIDE the item somewhere so that it wouldn't get eaten or drank.
LOL I See
Submitted by kellyj on
I'm note sure what to say here? lol But I'd probably feel the same way if that's was my experience! lol
Sorry for laughing but those word pictures you described were pretty funny. Not laughing at your situation....I was just picturing the descriptions as I read them and it was one of those things...... unless your the one experiencing it........ because it's sounded so ridiculous?
On the lighter side of this.....this sounds like someone I knew (an old friend) who grew up in a large family and everyone had to compete for food or not get any. Talking about desserts and things of that nature not sustenance.
I remember distinctly being over at their house when pieces of cake were being cut and there was just enough for everyone to have one piece ( the mother made sure to announce this to everyone ahead of time) ....by the time the last people had finished eating and went to get cake....it was all gone. This erupted into a major confrontation and my friend leaned over and said ...."this happens all the time....don't worry about it" And no one ever admitted eating the extra pieces by the end of the ruckus. I guess...Parr for the course? lol
J
H and I both have several siblings so ......
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
H and I both have several siblings, but our moms were very different.
My mom would cut the cake appropriately, and serve each on a plate for each person....which made sure that each got a slice. My mom would NOT have tolerated selfishness and we probably would have gotten a spanking if we had taken someone else's piece.
H's mom would have set the cake out, and not paid any attention....even if one person took the entire cake to his room to eat by himself. Seriously.
This is why I have long said that many of these issues could be nipped in the bud by PROPER PARENTING. The FIRST time your child behaves in a selfish, self-centered way that doesn't show care or concern for others....THAT IS A TEACHING MOMENT. And, the child needs to be told what the negative consequence will be if he/she doesn't correct his behavior. That consequence might be: Next time, you won't be allowed to have ANY cake...even if that means throwing away half the cake. Or, if the child is old enough: Now you must help bake a new cake for the person(s) that got no cake.
The point is to make an impression.
The same thing goes for kids who leave cabinet doors open. When my older child started doing this, I copied what teachers used to do in the old days..... I made my son open and close the door correctly (gently) 10 times in a row. That hard-wired into this brain. If he forgot again, it would now be 20 times...until the hard-wiring would be complete.
In the old days, if a child came into the classroom and let the door loudly slam, teacher would have the child go back out to the hall, open and close the door quietly...and repeat a few times. Simply telling the child does NO GOOD. Make them DO IT AGAIN AND AGAIN.
My best friend complained that her 12 year old daughter was slamming the car door shut whenever she got out. Didn't matter that my friend kept telling her not to do it. I told her to have her daughter get back in the car, get out, softly close the door 5 times. It worked. If her daughter had repeated the offense, she would then have to do it 10 times. (and my friend told her dau just that. )
ADHD kids will learn if things are calmly and sensibly DRILLED into their heads.
When son was little...
Submitted by Delphine on
My son showed these signs long before he was diagnosed. I remember when he was little, 3 or so, I got a babysitter for him, and she made fried chicken for her family, kindly
allowing the little one to partake. Later I found out he had hogged most of it. The family just sat and stared as he tore into it. LOL!
Yes...he struggles to keep his weight down...and he's had horrible gall bladder attacks which fortunately have made him more aware of the need for moderation!
Hi OWW...Is it...selfishness, No self control, or rebellion?
Submitted by c ur self on
I hear you:), Why? Why is it this away? What is going on in a mind that will ignore requests, others rights, ignore rules, ignore most anything that has to do with thinking about someone ahead of their own selfish desires....I personally think it revolves around no self-control and the inability to not rebel than just selfishness....Because the same mind being oblivious to their actions one moment...Can turn right around at times and be caring, thoughtful and giving the next...The drive to rebel against any rule or request put down that would force them to alter or mange their behavior, (no self control).
This is just another of the very uncomfortable and awkward moments that happens when a husband or wife lives in this kind of mind....Is the answer to correct them like you would a child? I think not....If an adult loves rebellion or has no self control and scoffs at people who believe in doing what is right...I only see walking away from their behavior as a way to show disapproval and force them to own it....Because if they really don't care, why would I endure the repercussion coming for pointing it out??
LOL
C
What goes on in their minds?
Submitted by jennalemone on
"What is going on in a mind that will ignore requests, others rights, ignore rules, ignore most anything that has to do with thinking about someone ahead of their own selfish desires....."
Yes, C, I was nearly obsessed with this question/ dilemma for years. I used to say (in my internal dialogue) that when we married, "I joined a team and my husband declared war." I had been trying to partner up with someone who lives in the moment and whose most valuable asset (to his own thinking) was his independence and his ability to "play" me.
H astounded me one day when he said to me, "Everyone has a little imp inside of them." My heart sank when I realized how different we think. It seems that he expects to be loved for his special childlike demeanor. (I notice on these boards, that often times there is a "he he" after a sentence, in the ADDer ADHDers' writings). There seems to be a correlation to the self identification of "childlike imp" that exists with my H to his expectations of our relationship on one hand, then the insistence of being treated with respect on the other....and with rage if he feels un-included or that his authority is being usurped after he has dropped his responsibility or failed on his promise.
I have a granddaughter who is a total imp at 4 years old. She delights in doing what she knows she is not supposed to do (complete with an beautiful sprite-like smile that "works" on people who are not in charge of her). Then she has total tantrum drama if she is reprimanded. This is what H seems to be like still at this age. He is like a naughty, elfin child. Which makes me by default a mommy to him and a very sad spouse trying to partner with not just dead weight but with a force trying to pull us down. He is sort of proud of his imp-hood. Proud of his cleverness to "get away with" not doing what is expected and making people merry like a clown.
Then, one day he said to me, "Our problem is that you don't respect me."
Someone recently on this site talked about compartmentalizing. I think he spends his thinking time diverting himself and rationalizing his actions/inaction. He is enamored with the concept of "unconditional love" from me. Yet, he is also a master at retaliation "in spades" as he calls it if someone does not respect him.
It leaves a hole in my vision of mutual partnership trust and love and faith - big picture. He seems to value present moment clowning around above all else.
In H's case, his entitlement to freedom and fun is chosen over building a marriage with integrity. Sound like I should have given him his single-hood a long time ago.
I hear you Jen...cognitive dissonance....
Submitted by c ur self on
I know based on all the work and thought you have put in and shared here on this forum that you want only the best for your husband...The million dollar question is "How do we get there from here?"
You seem convinced that his way of living, and looking at life will probably never allow for y'all's union to be one with all the healthy attributes you've listed....
I don't know why a person adapts that attitude of taking nothing serious (jokester) then turns on those he loves (conflicting thoughts) and proclaims "the problem is you don't respect me"....He doesn't even realize his cry isn't for respect...It's for acceptance.....I think he would change if he had the capability...I think it takes something greater than C to allow for real change in my life....
I wish u many blessings today!
C
C and Jen....I Can't Speak For "Them"
Submitted by kellyj on
I can tell you what I know about myself however?
Jenna said something in her last comment to you and I almost went (PSST.....are you talking about me?) Someone recently on this site talked about compartmentalizing. I think he spends his thinking time diverting himself and rationalizing his actions/inaction. He is enamored with the concept of "unconditional love" from me. Yet, he is also a master at retaliation "in spades" as he calls it if someone does not respect him.
Let me say first.....that Jenna is right about one thing....if it was not in direct reference to me...it should have been. As she was talking about her H interjected the comment about compartmentalization (thinking it was me who brought that up because I did?) her train of thought continued into rationalizations, retaliation, unconditional love and not being respected. That along with "imp" like behaviors and the little "te he's" or "giggles" like he thinks it;s funny when it's not? I had to think about that one a bit since I was trying to picture this better and then it occurred to me what she might be trying to describe. Similar but not the same for me but to the point.....I do know where and why and how this all happens? If you have a little faith in that I might know the answer?
I think it might have been John Gottman (referenced a lot by Melissa from his research work in this area) who determined a 5 to 1 ratio or 5 positives interactions to every one negative interaction for a healthy balance in your relationship. I'm seeing another correlation to this in a pretty direct way when it comes to interactions with other people in general having ADHD and how this might explain this better to you.
Stand back here for a moment..... and go along with me.....and re- read all the judgmental statements made in this thread alone. Really. If you objectively just scan through this thread and read all the judgmental statements in it alone ie: conclusions, assessments, determinations, labels, diagnosis and derogatory innuendo....it adds up pretty fast?
I'm also thinking about this in terms of my self and how I was so not aware that all my sarcasm and cynicism was really a form of venting anger and I didn't even realize it?
But in respect to the things that you are saying too.......the person on the other side of my sarcasm was feeling the negativity that I was getting rid of by doing it. If that makes sense? I felt better in the moment and they felt worse. This works both ways (always)
When I first came to this forum looking for answers to things.....my first impression was "WOW....there's a lot of angry people here.... venting and spewing a lot of venomous and somewhat derogatory statements and information here that mostly sound inaccurate?" Not everyone of course but that's not the point I am trying to make here (I'm not being defensive just stating my initial reaction) The only inaccurate parts have to do with these judgments themselves. Not all of them are wrong but many are as you connect them to how you feel. How you feel is not at issue.....just the conclusions and judgments especially if they are wrong.
Not so important to you as this doesn't really change how you feel here.....but on the receiving end of this is.....that IF they are wrong and you know it.....but you can't explain it or can justify it in a reasonable way ....or any other way (undiagnosed or in denial that is)....all you got left is defensiveness and that's where all these behaviors originate from. It's all under one heading.....defensive or over compensating for something.
All of this is to say one thing.....having ADHD simply puts you on the defensive just because. ( for all good and bad reasons ) No arguing this and I wouldn't dare defend against it! And the experience you have out there in the real world....could be likened to the crucible that is created here on this forum in a "microcosm effect"....if you will?
As was described this feeling.....it is the same feeling that you carry with you from your previous experiences moving forward starting when you are first growing up? And that 5 to 1 ratio that Gottman was describing? More like 1 to 1 or even less than 0 (-).....from the perspective of someone with ADHD. That is in a sense.....a kind of eternal unchanging unhealthy relationship between you and the rest of the world? (other people in it) Another way to say it is ......adversarial.
All of these behaviors and the reasons why people do them are in a means of defense or defense mechanisms....all of them. A person in denial needs LOTS and LOTS of defense mechanisms to protect from.......(bingo C) ....cognizant dissonance. You got it!
Before I include the other defense mechanisms from the same source I used previously.....I wanted to point out before I go past this is that you and Jen were both asking (rhetorically or not?) what are "they" thinking or what's going on in their minds? DEFENSE! FIRST AND FORMOST! It's all about defense and nothing more....it's no more complicated than that even if it feels offensive to you. Some defenses are offensive and others are not.
If you are by nature a passive person (like me).....it comes out passively (more defensive overtly) or passive aggressively. (ambivalent or less aggressive possibly and possible slightly less offensive?)
If you are basically an aggressive person......it's just aggressive and offensive I think? (best defense is a good offense/) These are both ways of countering or off setting things like anxiety, anger or other unwanted unpleasant emotions by over compensating.
My personal favorites (historically) are sublimation, displacement , rationalization, undoing, compensation and intellectualizing and not a good or balanced way always. And the thing one that I have struggled with more than any one (my weakest defense mechanism?) is assertiveness. There was a time.....I would rather jump off a cliff than be assertive (unless I was angry)
And now.....I'm aware but still learning how to do these better than the ways I use to which still needs a lot of work. Just from habit.....I still do things in the same ways as before but without anything behind them or the reasons I had used them before. if you don't have anything new to replace the old ones.....I'm still finding that at times....the old ones come out only from not developing new ones and even though I am aware of it. It's a process and it takes time.
I think sublimation is what Jenna is talking about with the impish or "he he" trying to make a joke about something serious or in essence....never taking things seriously by minimizing the seriousness of it....and maximizing the humor or non-serious nature of something that should be taken seriously all in an effort to reduce stress and anxiety. That's me all over the place but as it says here.....only if not done appropriately. I think as I read that.....at least there are appropriate ways to use mature defenses comparing that to the primitive ones to start with.
If you are taking about primitive defense mechanisms.....I'm not sure there is any appropriate way to manage those? I think right there is a big reason for why they are are so child like in appearance and are not tolerated well. I think denial is the corner stone for the group as well? If you remove the denial.....the rest of the dominos will fall along with it to a certain degree and won't have any support behind them and you will need to find other ones to replace it after the denial were to go away. You can see the reason why denial is so difficult to get past at first. It basically will leave you defenses without it?
I already put the list of primitive defense mechanisms down here....but there are more and they fall into two other categories ie: more mature defense mechanisms (compared to primitive ones)....and then (mature) defense mechanisms....which are......
(more mature....but still not mature)
8. Repression
Repression is the unconscious blocking of unacceptable thoughts, feelings and impulses. The key to repression is that people do it unconsciously, so they often have very little control over it. “Repressed memories” are memories that have been unconsciously blocked from access or view. But because memory is very malleable and ever-changing, it is not like playing back a DVD of your life. The DVD has been filtered and even altered by your life experiences, even by what you’ve read or viewed.
9. Displacement
Displacement is the redirecting of thoughts feelings and impulses directed at one person or object, but taken out upon another person or object. People often use displacement when they cannot express their feelings in a safe manner to the person they are directed at. The classic example is the man who gets angry at his boss, but can’t express his anger to his boss for fear of being fired. He instead comes home and kicks the dog or starts an argument with his wife. The man is redirecting his anger from his boss to his dog or wife. Naturally, this is a pretty ineffective defense mechanism, because while the anger finds a route for expression, it’s misapplication to other harmless people or objects will cause additional problems for most people.
10. Intellectualization
Intellectualization is the overemphasis on thinking when confronted with an unacceptable impulse, situation or behavior without employing any emotions whatsoever to help mediate and place the thoughts into an emotional, human context. Rather than deal with the painful associated emotions, a person might employ intellectualization to distance themselves from the impulse, event or behavior. For instance, a person who has just been given a terminal medical diagnosis, instead of expressing their sadness and grief, focuses instead on the details of all possible fruitless medical procedures.
11. Rationalization
Rationalization is putting something into a different light or offering a different explanation for one’s perceptions or behaviors in the face of a changing reality. For instance, a woman who starts dating a man she really, really likes and thinks the world of is suddenly dumped by the man for no reason. She reframes the situation in her mind with, “I suspected he was a loser all along.”
12. Undoing
Undoing is the attempt to take back an unconscious behavior or thought that is unacceptable or hurtful. For instance, after realizing you just insulted your significant other unintentionally, you might spend then next hour praising their beauty, charm and intellect. By “undoing” the previous action, the person is attempting to counteract the damage done by the original comment, hoping the two will balance one another out.
And then mature ones
13. Sublimation
Sublimation is simply the channeling of unacceptable impulses, thoughts and emotions into more acceptable ones. For instance, when a person has sexual impulses they would like not to act upon, they may instead focus on rigorous exercise. Refocusing such unacceptable or harmful impulses into productive use helps a person channel energy that otherwise would be lost or used in a manner that might cause the person more anxiety.
Sublimation can also be done with humor or fantasy. Humor, when used as a defense mechanism, is the channeling of unacceptable impulses or thoughts into a light-hearted story or joke. Humor reduces the intensity of a situation, and places a cushion of laughter between the person and the impulses. Fantasy, when used as a defense mechanism, is the channeling of unacceptable or unattainable desires into imagination. For example, imagining one’s ultimate career goals can be helpful when one experiences temporary setbacks in academic achievement. Both can help a person look at a situation in a different way, or focus on aspects of the situation not previously explored.
14. Compensation
Compensation is a process of psychologically counterbalancing perceived weaknesses by emphasizing strength in other arenas. By emphasizing and focusing on one’s strengths, a person is recognizing they cannot be strong at all things and in all areas in their lives. For instance, when a person says, “I may not know how to cook, but I can sure do the dishes!,” they’re trying to compensate for their lack of cooking skills by emphasizing their cleaning skills instead. When done appropriately and not in an attempt to over-compensate, compensation is defense mechanism that helps reinforce a person’s self-esteem and self-image.
15. Assertiveness
Assertiveness is the emphasis of a person’s needs or thoughts in a manner that is respectful, direct and firm. Communication styles exist on a continuum, ranging from passive to aggressive, with assertiveness falling neatly inbetween. People who are passive and communicate in a passive manner tend to be good listeners, but rarely speak up for themselves or their own needs in a relationship. People who are aggressive and communicate in an aggressive manner tend to be good leaders, but often at the expense of being able to listen empathetically to others and their ideas and needs. People who are assertive strike a balance where they speak up for themselves, express their opinions or needs in a respectful yet firm manner, and listen when they are being spoken to. Becoming more assertive is one of the most desired communication skills and helpful defense mechanisms most people want to learn, and would benefit in doing so.
* * *
Remember, defense mechanisms are most often learned behaviors, most of which we learned during childhood. That’s a good thing, because it means that, as an adult, you can choose to learn some new behaviors and new defense mechanisms that may be more beneficial to you in your life. Many psychotherapists will help you work on these things, if you’d like. But even becoming more aware of when you’re using one of the less primitive types of defense mechanisms above can be helpful in identifying behaviors you’d like to reduce.
That last comment was very telling to me too......identifying less primitive ones can be helpful for reducing behaviors you'd like to reduce? mmmmm? Why those more than the other ones? Is it because the behaviors that they are defending are the worst ones to deal with.....like denial? It's number one in being the most primitive of all? (which means most child like )
So if everyone is going to take responsibility for their own parts here.....there is a reason to be defensive and there are reasons why people get defensive so there is always a cause to the effect in every interaction you can think of? It kind of tells you what part is yours if you look at it from that perspective....and then how to change this relationship to a better one?
J
Thanks J for all this great information....
Submitted by c ur self on
Understanding and Awareness is everything in our relationships J...We need to understand each others (verbal) communication styles..If someone's self esteem forces them to speak mostly in comparative terms. It's wise to know that and accept it....If someone doesn't take things serious (makes every serious concern a laughable event) then you know that going in,..U have the understanding, you are aware...In both of these examples, issues (where they are in life) are forcing it...In most cases the person isn't trying to intentionally hurt anyone...
We all have issues, but, if we are aware! and recognize it, we can have peace:)...At the end of the day what do we all want??? Isn't it to just be loved?? And what else? Isn't it to feel good about ourselves, to feel like we make a difference? (to be affirmed, and have our ego stroked) ....Awareness at a mature level can allow us to keep the brakes on act and react....If we do that, many more days will end peaceful for us all....
I think the Leadership development course I took (business model) was more like 10-1 when it comes to Affirmation and praise vs Need for improvement....It's been over 20 years, so don't hold my feet to the fire on this one:)
Thank you Jesus!
C
Adversarial
Submitted by jennalemone on
"All of this is to say one thing.....having ADHD simply puts you on the defensive just because. ( for all good and bad reasons ) No arguing this and I wouldn't dare defend against it! And the experience you have out there in the real world....could be likened to the crucible that is created here on this forum in a "microcosm effect"....if you will?
As was described this feeling.....it is the same feeling that you carry with you from your previous experiences moving forward starting when you are first growing up? ...from the perspective of someone with ADHD. That is in a sense.....a kind of eternal unchanging unhealthy relationship between you and the rest of the world? (other people in it) Another way to say it is ......adversarial." jjamieson
WOW! This IS my H. I knew from the beginning that H had a chip on his shoulder. I thought that with support and love and my own sacrifice that I could "turn that around FOR him". I thought he would appreciate that I "had his back" and that he no longer had to be defensive and play the "I got you first" card.
I was wrong. That did not work and he turned against me when all his "out there adversaries" were not at his disposal anymore. I even understood that he needed someone to rail against when he came home from the "big bad world". I would put myself between him and our sons so that they would not be the ones he was dumping on..... I knew this early on and was willing to do this for the sake of love, purpose and pursuit of "happy family".
Supporting and sacrificing is not the way. Just saying.
I will say this. My son has some characteristics of possible ADD. Don't know for sure. He is in a circumstance where he has had a LOT of responsibility thrust upon him. So far, 1 1/2 years, he has risen to the occasion and done a pretty good job. I wonder if responsibility thrust upon an ADDer is a GOOD thing? Can someone rise to the challenges if there is no choice? If there is no enabler to rescue and work FOR them?
(I wonder if responsibility
Submitted by c ur self on
(I wonder if responsibility thrust upon an ADDer is a GOOD thing? Can someone rise to the challenges if there is no choice? If there is no enabler to rescue and work FOR them?)....Since intelligence and work ethic isn't a problem.....I would say Yes to all three questions....
(Supporting and sacrificing is not the way. Just saying.)
I would like to address this statement with a few questions....What would you have done differently? Do you think you possibly might feel this way because you are trapped in your own mind; and so wished things could have been different?
Do you think if you could do it over you would continue to offer Support and Sacrifice with out enabling?
If you could have an outer body experience where you was just an on looker of your whole marital existence as your husbands wife...Do you think you would bring this information back to yourself?...You had unrealistic expectations for the mind your husband lives in...Nothing you could have done would have ever changed things.....
C
If i knew then what I know now
Submitted by jennalemone on
What would you have done differently?
Supporting and sacrificing didn't work.
I have a degree and post grad classes in education and business. I have been taught how to mold student's and workers's minds....Educational Physcology and Organizational Leadership. And yet, I feel confused and lost in my own marriage, unseen and unappreciated. Even while I took those classes I would argue with an instructor that manipulating a child or worker into doing what you wanted them to do was not giving them their own freedom to be who they are and wasn't that the goal....to show THEM the way to be the best THEY could be? The instructor would say, "That is your job as teacher or manager, you "manage" them. It IS manipulation we are teaching you You ARE manipulating their minds. That is what you are getting paid for. You can't be a manager if you are not managing them".
Going back in time, if I would do things differently, I would say that I would "manage" my H. But in the early years, I did not have the mindset that I knew everything/anything BETTER than he did. I listened to what he said and tried to work WITH him, FOR him, FOR us, giving him ego support so he could go out into the world and make a living for us. Now that I see that he was usually working from offense/defense with me (managing ME to let him alone and not expect anything from him)....If I knew then what I know now about him, I would "manage" him. Changing my own thinking, I would compartmentalize and he would have to be my "worker". That is totally not ME, but it would have been better for both of us. I know women/people like this, the divas in their own families. Now that I am going to that place of looking at this, I can say that I have had the thought that H would have been better off with a woman who was a diva....a demanding, spicy, hot-tempered, prima-dona, directing, matriarch. Maybe families need/want that. The families that I know who have this sort of female leadership seem happy and usually LOVE the queen at the head....even the husband seemingly happily follows her around. When we were young, H was adamant that I not be that way. (and I learned in church that the man was the head of the household). H even said to me on the way home from our honeymoon, after I requested something from him, "I WILL NOT BE MARRIED TO A NAG!!!". and hundreds of times, "You get more bees with honey". I was always careful to not be a nag and I tried to be sweet. His own mother was a matriarch and his father was the follower. I guess if I knew then what I know now, I would have changed myself into more of a matriarch and less of a sweet bride with him. I was trying to be loving. I did it in the wrong ways....and I am now ashamed of my weakness. There would have been a lot of fighting early on to see who would be the matriarch/patriarch because he was working to have dominion, but something I would do differently would be to FIGHT in those early days. Like dogs fight to see who is the leader of the pack. Yes. That would have worked BETTER that what happened here. I would use rewards, affirmations, punishments, calculated setups, strength, solidarity, club membership enticement, contracts, flirtations (the honey), etc. to get my things in order.
Maybe people just want to feel they are contributing and purposeful. If I had been more of a princess, asking my subjects (my family) to please me, I would have given them the gift of their own pride and purpose. And the plus side of that, is I, today would maybe feel beloved. BUT I DON'T WANT MY FAMILY'S PURPOSE TO BE TO TRY TO MAKE ME HAPPY!!! I wanted our purpose AS A TEAM to be that of building together a home of refuge and strength to be able to go out and build things and contribute things and have adventure OUT THERE.
H's world/thoughts are small. His world to conquer was me (to be HIS subject). His freedom from marriage committment is his clowning arena. His resting time is his kingdom. His pleasure is his self-entitled prize. And I was stuck in his tiny world with him.
OK. I am completely turning myself around right now and will think about his some more today. I think now the question is for me,"Would I have wanted it to work this way?" NO!!. That is simply not what I would want nor is it in my abilities or desire....to manipulate/manage other people. I didn't teach OR manage people. I ended up owning a business instead.
"Could I have, Did I, Can I ... contribute to the world all that I have to offer? Can I stop trying so hard to have a good relationship with this one person? Shall I use my time and energy to volunteer, get involved, enjoy life?" Yes, THAT is what I would have done differently. I would have looked outside of my marriage for inspiration, comfort, purpose. I would look to God, friends and family for my community. I would celebrate and appreciate all that I have been given and not hide myself from the world or negate my abilities and gifts. I will step out of this clouded angry world I have imprisoned myself in and shine and not be pulled down into trying to partner with someone who does not want to or is not able to partner. That would involve getting off of this site and in to a place where my own spirit was sharing itself without the pointing finger at H. But I feel there are thoughtful friends here. And I will continue to share and read and dump. At least for a while yet.
I understand Jen...
Submitted by c ur self on
It's obvious you are well educated, you write so well...You do have friends on this site who pray for you, and want peace for you...I know one!....It can be difficult for sure to deal with a reality in our relationships that we would not choose and most of all feel we have worked so hard to prevent or to go in a more healthy way... I really hear your frustrations; and So does the one who matters!
I agree about this site; and how easy it can be to allow ourselves to get so overwhelmed about things we can't really do anything about....You said a lot of wonderful things in the last paragraph of your post...I hope you can look more inward and just start engaging more w/ God, Family and friends....Sharing your gifts....It's been very healthy for me....And very healthy for the relationship....
Just staying on the right path each day is vital for me....The one I don't control....It's by faith!
Have blessed day!
C
the most important relationship...
Submitted by Delphine on
...is with yourself. Get your H out of the equation. Love yourself. Tell yourself, "I love you." Over and over again. Do the things that make YOU feel good. Yoga does that for me. Walking in nature. Watching my fish pets. Catching a good movie. Meditation. Cooking, painting, writing. None of those requires the participation of anyone else.
You've got me thinking about volunteering in some capacity, yes, that would be good, too.
Delphine
This Reminded Me of Something
Submitted by kellyj on
Many years ago now.......a very, very close friend of mine ( a former swimmer ) and I..... while camping together one time....looked at me and said.."Hey Donut Eater....what's up with the beer gut ?"
It was summer and we had our shirts off. I hadn't been working out...and he had been training for a marathon and running 12 miles a day and was in really good shape.....and he said this as the two of us were drinking beer and doing what (we) do while we're camping on a hot summers day.....drinking beer! lol
This really hit home....HARD....... which was exactly his intention. I took that to mean exactly what it meant coming from him.....a not so subtle way of saying I needed to get back into shape again and start working out more.
He was absolutely right and I knew it..... and I took that.... from a friend and caring companion....to be in my best interest and it was done in exactly the same way we both knew it to understand...... even if it stung a little. This is and was ....the status quo of our relationship together and there was no offense taken on my part what so ever.....what goes around, comes around and this was a perfectly acceptable thing for him to do. And in turn.....I'd say and do the same thing for his benefit in exactly the same way. (still do to this day)
This was understood.
But now....I took away from that.....that this is how to motivate someone else too. Namely.....my ex wife! lol
Do I need to say it here? This did not work and back fired completely. Duh???? lol
When I asked my T about this and why it didn't work (more duh??? on my part ) He said....the relationship you have with your friend is much different than the one you have with your wife. What works for one person......does not necessarily work for everyone else.
A hard but well learned lesson in what not to say to your spouse. Duh???? LOL
J
Hey Donut Eater...!
Submitted by jennalemone on
LOL.
Could a wife say to a husband? "Hey Grease Ball, What's up with the messy garage?" I may try that.
No No No....Don't Do That!! LOL
Submitted by kellyj on
Same lesson.....just a different version!! lol
There's a time and place for everything (almost)....there are exceptions! This IS one of them! LOL
Subtlety, is not my strongest suit. Working on that one as well:)
J
"A Man's Gotta Do...What a Man's Gotta do.." Jenna
Submitted by kellyj on
Can someone rise to the challenges if there is no choice? If there is no enabler to rescue and work FOR them? There's your answer....right there Jenna. Coining an old antiquated saying specifically a "Man". I am (just say'in) here ....that one needs to do what they need to do to survive. That's one of those universal truths that are universal to etheryone.
Every individual that is.....alone.... and by yourself...... if (no one else is there) to do it for you and you are alone....by yourself......the same as when you are born......and the same as is it will be when you die. And everything else is just what you do in between. You can't prevent being born or dying (eventually) and you've got no choices there.
But everything else in between is your choice and most people (including people with ADHD) will find a way to continue to live instead of dying I think?
What you said here about your husband..... "I thought he would appreciate that I "had his back" and that he no longer had to be defensive and play the "I got you first" card."
This is exactly what my T just reminded us (my wife and I ) to think about in his office two days ago. Trying to quote him hear since he just said it....
"You'd think....that a person who has been abused in their childhood....would grow up with a perspective that would say "I know what that is like....so I would never want to do be that way myself." And you wouldn't think that they would with having that experience themselves.....but's unfortunately.....that's not how it always works. People (everyone) cannot divorce themselves from past memories completely and those experiences and the memories that they take with them....will include a part of their abuser along with them. A person who see's the world through the eyes of a victim, will keep re-enacting the same thing over and over until you change your relationship with those past experiences and the people in them."
That means....whoever it is who abused you that is? Changing that relationship MEANS.....no longer seeing them the same way ever again. That mean seeing them in a completely different light from a completely different perspective which changes the entire context you put yourself in at the same time. So that means....if you think like a victim who is in an adversarial relationship with other people.....you need to change the relationship with yourself FIRST (and see yourself in a different light) ..and then adopt a different strategy or choice.....in how you see yourself before you can forgive and forget those past ( and future trespasses of others).
The paradox of having ADHD is.....the behaviors that bring out the very behaviors in others that perpetuate this kind of thinking....are the ADHD symptoms....that caused people to react to you in a hostile or disapproving (not palatable to the person with ADHD) way......because it's not from a choice in thinking or how you'd actually be like if it were not from having ADHD in the first place and the very symptoms that get misinterpreted as being disobedient and willful.
As a kid.....you just follow your instincts everywhere you go and are completely unaware of yourself in the same way we are now. All you know....is that people are upset with you or ridicule for apparently no reason?
It isn't from how you think ....but more from how you feel ( true of everyone at that age ) and that's what we all do....we only use how we feel to guide our actions as little kids (spontaneously and kind of being a dunder head )...until someone comes along to intervene and teach you how to do things differently. That's the paradox right there.
The paradox of having ADHD....is that when you get older and are still do things that look like or " feel like" child like behaviors from others perspectives ( from their own personal experience with this).....they will normally and immediately assume...that this person never learned to behave or act appropriately and is just doing it for every possible reason one would could up with to explain this? Of course....what else would you think? Except for one thing.... the real reason.....actually the only one.....which is ADHD. ADHD isn't the person ( who they are ).....they're just the symptoms of having ADHD.
The fact that they look just like all the other reasons a person might do this.....it's irrelevant to you on the receiving end of the symptoms....but it is VERY relevant to how that person actually is ( the person themselves and how they really think and feel ) .....which without the ADHD symptoms there in the first place......would not behave or act in these ways (especially when they grow up) that other people find offensive or hurtful. Truly......that's the paradox.
And why it's that "kind of eternal unhealthy relationship" that never changes. The symptoms don't change....and the reactions from other people don't change either. Until something or someone comes along to intervene in this cycle.....nothing ever changes and it stays just the same.
And as my T faithfully reminds me always........" you're your own worst enemy and the last line of defense to prevent this from happening in the first place and break the cycle....is how you think"
That along with taking that ring out of your nose (or chip off you shoulder) and not just blindly following how you feel everywhere you go and only using that as your only means to guide you.
As he does in those moments (silently)......taking his thumb and hooking it in his nose......and pulling his head and wrenching his own neck sideways with his own thumb.....and then staring at you in silence with a big smile on his face. I love when he does that....it always makes me laugh now:)
J
Jenna More Insight From My T
Submitted by kellyj on
Jenna,
My wife and I went to our(my) T yesterday and I brought up this very thing to him in his office yesterday. My wife and I have started using some of the tools we learned in Melissa's class....and one f them had to do with creating a "safe word" or "cue word" to use when either one of us recognize (in each other ) when the other person is heading down a path that neither one of us want to go down (for the sake of our relationship and each other individually).
The idea fits along with some things he said to us that really made sense and put this into perspective (for both sides or both people) in a means to reduce and finally eliminate these discrepancies and defense mechanisms from our repertoire together. I know you've said that you have learned some things that I have passed along from my T before so I thought about sharing these ideas with you while they are fresh in my mind so I'm taking the liberty of sharing them here with the hope that it will serve you as well?
Our safe word or cue word that we came up with is "Friend".....which was something I remembered as the same advise that my T used as a means to remind us both of the same thing. ....to treat each other like we treat our friends..... or people that we like even when we have a disagreement with them. I thought that was simple sound advise all things considered?
As this is working right now.....my wife is in denial of a lot of her issues and I can recognize that (and certainly forgive her easily) for a lot these discrepancies in her behavior ie" defense mechanisms. I'm using the word "discrepancies" here for both our sakes because we "both" use them and we 'both" have times when we are not aware of things we do to hurt the other person.
That's why the cue word is so helpful......if agreed upon ahead of time.....it allows the (proponent ) on the other side of the "antagonist" to use (in our case) the word "friend" to remind us to stay that way and no change the relationship we're having into an adversarial one.
Our T went on to describe something else that happens when you allow yourself to engage in an adversarial relationship that not everyone thinks about in terms of the "Perpetrator / Villain/ Instigator / Abuser" vs "Victim / Accused / Injured / Abused" dynamic when ever you enter into this kind of confrontation. No matter what or who you are with....there are times when both people play both roles in an argument or disagreement based on your strengths and weaknesses. By default.....the person with more power, skills and strengths at any given time is going to have the advantage over the other person and the other person will likely default to the victim role if it is not a fair or equitable fight?
Having said that......the "Victim" is not necessarily "hold harmless" in this relationship as he described it too us. I brought up "reaction formation" to him when he was describing this to see what he would say and he said what he was describing was similar (in that it flips or reverses ) but not precisely the same thing.
As he described this phenomenon as an "introjection" .(as defined)......"you cannot have the simplest perception without acquiring some elements outside of just sensation (or feelings) without having involved within it more than just the present elements (the person in front of you or stimulus) without acquiring some association of past mental images or memories within it.
The simplest (concrete) mental process MUST, in order to exist, have connections and relationships with all experiences past and present. If this stage in the thought process stands alone in isolation it must derive meaning on an unconscious level in order to become an "expereince".
This was the clinical kind of complicated way of saying that when you hear a song for example.... that has some kind of memory attached too it....you experience a "flash back" to the past on a cognitive level.....and it can take you right back to where you were, who you were with and what you were doing and even feel the exact same way you did when you heard it because it becomes associated with all of these things and this is all happens from only hearing a few measures or even the opening introduction to the song (almost instantaneously ) without any input or thought process on a conscious level.
Taking that, and applying it to what we ar talking about......as he described this from the perspective of a "Victim" ....they will change roles and become the "perpetrator" or "abuser" in this dynamic and no one wins and no one is not at fault when that happens. In this case....it is not from a conscious memory but rather and experiential one formed from your earliest experiences and the patterns that were formed from them in your sub conscious.
As we're doing for the moment in our therapy sessions (right now) since my wife's defensiveness and denial are getting in the way of talking about these things openly unless we use me as the example while my wife just listening during these times which I have no problem doing this...... but this is just saying that she does have her part to play here just so you know.
Even in front of him (while he's talking about this very thing .....and she "HAS TO" (she's compelled) to throw her her little digs and defensive (turd balls) in my direction while my T does nothing to acknowledge them and just moves right past them without saying anything. Even if I try and stop this and call her out in front of him.....he quickly (stops ME not her ) and moves right past these minor offenses and says "lets not get hung up on the words here" which is showing me exactly the very thing he is talking about.. I should say "us" but I don't think my wife is seeing this yet at the time? If she does....she's not admitting it or saying anything?
Anyway.....using me as the example.....I started with acknowledging that in my past I was a victim or had victim mentality in my thinking which by it's very nature....is adversarial. He explained this phenomenon where the victim becomes abuser in the form of retaliation or reacting to feeling attacked or persecuted. As he described it........
"You'd think that someone who has been abused in their past would not become and abuser themselves but this is not what normally happens. In reality as he said "the victim takes a part of the abuser along with them from the act itself. The "hurt and pain" that the victim feels becomes attached or "paired" with the "act" itself almost to the point that they become inseparable from one another. When the victim re-experiences that same act or perceives the same thing happening by this feeling that arises in you.....so does the past act or incident that it's paired with and that person then starts subconsciously play out the very same thing that happened to them in the past."
In other words......."tit for tat". The victim may not have started it or done anything to instigate the confrontation.....but their response to the same threat as before causes them to act in the exact same way in "retaliation."
In essence.....there is line that get crossed and what starts out feeling from the victims perspective that they are merely defending themselves or trying to stand up for themselves....is really "flight" turning into "fight". And sometimes if case like my wife for example......even before the other person (the antagonist) has a chance antagonize you again. This is a fear response in trying to predict and identify perceived threats before they even happen out of fear which is all coming from the victim (legitimately in the past) from some kind of abuse at some time previous in their life.
In other words......they are responding to you "NOW".....AS IF....you were that person in the past even though (YOU) are not that person or even doing the same thing they did? If that makes sense?
He went on to describe from the "dismissive / fearful avoidant" perspective.....in theory....how some people get this way.(my wife here as he was describing this to us)
As he described this he said...."picture a mother and child together....and the mother leaves the child alone for a while. A normal child will become upset if their mother is away from them for too long (without having to explain this part) and when she returns.....the child will need to be consoled and comforted to reassure them once again that they will not be left permanently or abandoned. And normally....with repetition if this is done consistently.....the child will learn eventually that when mom leaves....she will also return and meet their needs as soon as she returns.
But when a mother is negligent or by circumstance where she does not return in a reasonable time...amd/or is very inconsistent in doing this with that same child.....the child left alone who now becomes upset, worried and fearful .....now, stays upset even after mother returns and becomes inconsolable and angry and stays that way. Now that angry upset child is looking for signs (not for moms return when she leaves anticipating her return) but for signs that says she (might leave and anticipating being left in the first place even before she does)? This behavior in itself.....might cause the mother to leave sooner and stay away longer just to get away from the very behavior that they created in their own child from the very actions that THEY did and are responsible for which makes them do those actions or behaviors even more if they they are that oblivious or unaware of what they are doing and how this is affecting their child and the needs of their child.
This made me very angry at my wife's mother as I was hearing my T describe this even if she was not getting it (or was not sinking in yet) It is in a very real way....the sense I got from her myself and and the feeling my intuition was telling me and why I never liked her to be quite honest. It gave me a lot of compassion for my wife and all the struggles she has had to face because of this including my own with her.
That would fit the fearful/avoidant profile and why that happens. The dissmisve will have these components to them along with eventually telling themselves...."I don't need my mother for anything and she can't hurt me when she leaves".....in a false attempt to override those feelings of fear and tells her self (subconsciously) that she doesn't need mom (or anyone) and "no one can hurt me!"
And since these things predispose a person to act in one way or another.....this will reenact itself again and again and play it self out later as that person's default when confronted with conflict , loss or stress of losing something important or one they love. Specifically and most importantly.....with the one they love because the stakes are much higher and there is more to lose in those kinds of relationships versus causal friendships in comparison.
So Jenna....your observations and descriptions were telling. Here we are in our T's office while he is explaining this stuff to us using me as the example with my wife just sitting there listening.....but she can't help but interject (or introject?) these little accusations and minor insults thrown my way in playing out the very thing my T was explaining.....while he was explaining it! lol When I say she is compelled or she "has to"....I'm not kidding. It's completely unconscious on her part and she has no idea why she does this until after she's done it? Yet....she's aware she does it and it doesn't feel good when she does. If you apply this to why she doesn't feel good when this happens.....you understand why?
Victim, retaliation, antagonist, fear, betrayal, response, and just plain old reacting instead of thinking and processing is what this is all about. The last "real line of defense" in all of this....is your cognitive thoughts that will prevent it from going anywhere and prevail over being hijacked by these primitive feelings (or sensations) and turning them into actions that we don't want to have happen on our end ie: victim turning perpetrator or abuser by the very abuse you received in your past.
J
Anxious vs Fearful in Comparing Styles
Submitted by kellyj on
I would be negligent in not including myself here for comparison to my predisposed style which is slightly different if I am not staying on top of these things. My default when I'm not being secure.... anxious/preoccupied in attachment theory. It took me a good amount of work and effort to move myself out of this old pattern and into a more secure one myself....but when push comes to shove and I falter or fail at maintaining myself.....this is the default that I will go to in my own contribution to the relationship. I have a hint of dismissive/avoidant in there too....but mainly......I'm not fearful or worried about the same things my wife is worried about and am not trying to predict or prevent things that haven't happened yet before they can even have a chance to happen.
For me ( the anxious or anxiety condition created from this).....I don't worry so much and look at preventing things so much as I get triggered into reacting to things I experience in the moment while hey are happening. One is a more preemptive strike (my wife) .....and the other one is more of a retaliation to attack or threat (ME) Niether one are good but one triggers the other into the cycle or dynamic.
And it ......comes from inconsistency in my upbringing on my parents part which made me more "ansi" and "anxious" in the face of confrontation or threat. More being on guard or hyper vigilant....instead of being in 'DEVCON 4" mode all the time like my wife.
And...as my T does he faithfully pointed out to me......ADHD is "inconsistent by it's very nature" so "my own inconsistency produces the very thing that causes me to be anxious in the first place."
In other words.....I'm MY own worst enemy if I am not consistent myself which causes my wife to trigger the very thing in me that I don't want. She didn't do this in other words even if her dismissive style exacerbates this condition for me.(my own shit not hers).
It was there already and I brought that with me into the relationship. It is in other words....."my own self fulfilling prophecy."
Just so you know.....I am very aware of this and now I am aware of both of our issues and I am hoping to get my wife to see her side of this as well. Using that safe word is really helpful in nipping this in the bud before it gets too far in to trouble.
"Friend" I thought is a good reminder in those moments when we need that reminder the most:)
J
Fixed reality; suspended in time......
Submitted by c ur self on
(In other words......they are responding to you "NOW".....AS IF....you were that person in the past even though (YOU) are not that person or even doing the same thing they did? If that makes sense?)
It makes all the sense in the world...This is what makes moving on or moving past dysfunction almost impossible....It really doesn't matter if you have adhd or not in these cases...If you are, or I perceive you to be in a fixed state of denial to your responsibilities...I'm already behind the eight ball when it comes to staying composed when sharing my needs with you...Anxiety is in place before the first sentence is spoken....
How to avoid this??
Awareness; if when you wrong your spouse due to disrespect, neglect, or just shrugging your responsibilities, (what ever the reason) If you have not communicated openly why your acts toward your spouse are what they are; (if you always seem to find an excuse for not owning or even recognizing your actions) If there is no sense of vulnerability and being apologetic.... Then it is almost impossible for the two of you to be at peace...(There is never closure) The partner who is left hanging will have great trouble not perceiving their spouse as being in denial about the way they live....Fixed reality; unchangeable due to failure to recognize it.....So when you attempt to reach out to this type mind; anxiety is already present....
It takes self-awareness, the ability to be open, the ability to be humbled and the ability to forgive....To move past our issues....
C
Time Line Jumping C
Submitted by kellyj on
How to avoid this???
Be aware of it...accept it......and then predict it......and put that into action.
I threw that in that for your benefit C. If your wife is "time line jumping" ( my made up phrase which is what my wife does when we gotten into arguments. I learned not to argue about time what so ever with my wife because it seems......she jumps all over the place and never is talking about just one at a time ie: past, present and future)
Instead....I have learned though observation and experience....how to predict her and head her off before she starts jumping all over the place in time. I think this will serve you too if you start doing this. In the past.....I've called this......"keeping her honest."
I realize however....that honesty has nothing to do with it :)
J
Wise J...It's enough work to just deal with the one issue.....
Submitted by c ur self on
This is were people go when they have no other defense; and can't apologize and ask for forgiveness.....Time line jumping? Great name for it....I'm guilty of this for sure......
C
Blame Game
Submitted by Delphine on
J:
"This made me very angry at my wife's mother as I was hearing my T describe this even if she was not getting it (or was not sinking in yet) It is in a very real way....the sense I got from her myself and and the feeling my intuition was telling me and why I never liked her to be quite honest. It gave me a lot of compassion for my wife and all the struggles she has had to face because of this including my own with her."
J, this is the kind of thing that gets passed on through the generations. More than likely, your wife's mother had similar experiences with her own mother. My mother was effectively abandoned by her mother--given up into the foster care system. My mother's grandmother died when her mother was a baby. Get the picture?
Of course it is good to have compassion, but probably no one is really to blame here. We are all acting out old tapes from our childhood, unless we become very conscious and self-directed.
Thank You For Sharing That Delphine
Submitted by kellyj on
This was such a great confirmation for me ( a very validating one in all good ways). Yesterday....only a couple of hours after I wrote this.....I thought the exact same thing:)
I've found the more I work on myself and the more I practice this.....the shorter that interval has become.
In some things.....I've discovered already.....that when that interval gets to "0" and I do this in the moment.....it makes me feel like I have conquered yet.... one more obstacle in my own thinking. I've done this already in so many other things like this, I know.....as long as I keep this up and continue in this direction....I can do this with everything and eventually.....they will all be present in the moment....when I really need them the most. It's just how it works.
Thanks for the validation:)
J
About That Anger Delphine
Submitted by kellyj on
I forgot to mention.....when this occurred to me I had to stop for a moment and think about this? Was that appropriate to be angry with my wife's mother? In respect to my own anger and why this made me mad......I think it WAS appropriate or there is a good reason for it. How long you stay angry and how you deal with that is what is most important.
I can't remember the source but I remember the quote? "Anger is always legitimate....for 50 seconds or less." I like that one a lot.....it doesn't imply that you even have to express it (you always have that choice)....but it also doesn't imply that anger in itself is a bad thing or there are not good reasons to be angry? It's just an emotion that is there to tell you what to do....what you do with it....is your decision to make......like anything else:)
J
Totally, J
Submitted by Delphine on
Nothing wrong with anger in itself, as long as we're not holding on to it too long.
I can still feel flashes of anger with my parents for past stuff, even while I know they were doing their best in difficult circumstances.
This is a quote I like on anger. It is channeled from the spirit realm. The spirit's name is Seth (though he was emphatic that names were not important) and the channeler was Jane Roberts.
"Anger is as right as rain or a storm
cloud...Now, if you are afraid of anger, you rationalized your response -
because you did not want to say, 'Yes, I experienced the release of
my good and righteous anger' - that is a No-No.
Anger, released, is as natural as rain or clouds, as magnificent as
a storm, and a necessary. Denied, it becomes something else entirely,
and then it turns to violence.. If you spontaneously let out your hostility when you felt it, you
would not have this super charge that you felt you must throw out or
be damned. It would not be so heavy on your heads.
The problem is not what you think of as your negative
thoughts, but your fear of them. Now, let us continue and see where
you lead yourself...Once you begin suppressing, you suppress all emotions to some
degree, and set up barriers because you are afraid of the reality of
yourself. If you cannot express anger, you cannot express love. Not
only that, but you get the two confused."
Yes Delphine
Submitted by kellyj on
Fear is always at the core of what we don't want...including anger:)
Yes...and...
Submitted by Delphine on
Love is letting go of fear :)
Me Too
Submitted by kellyj on
We are in complete agreement:)
Our problem is that you don't respect me."
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
>>Our problem is that you don't respect me."<<<
I think this is a common problem. It's one thing to respect certain aspects and talents of people like this, but it can be another to fully respect them as adults when so many of their actions are childish, selfish, annoying, and so forth.
Am I supposed to fully respect someone who I can't even trust to take proper care of our pets?
Respect
Submitted by Delphine on
Liz, I think we can respect them as soul-beings, and recognize that they are not defined by their actions, whether or not they are living up to OUR expectations.
Don't think for a moment that I haven't struggled and still struggle with this stuff myself. My son's room gave me the heebie-jeebies. Shades of the Augean Stables :)
It helped when I learned that Beethoven was a major slob, too. And he wasn't so great at taking care of business in general. :D Puts it in perspective, huh? And there are more cases:http://totallythebomb.com/why-being-a-slob-is-awesome
I highly recommend the book "Don't Sweat The Small Stuff" by Richard Carlson. Another one I've found very helpful is "Handbook To Higher Consciousness" by Ken Keyes Jr. It is avalable as a free PDF: http://worldprayerfoundation.com/resources/Ken%20Keyes-Handbook%20to%20H...
JJamieson posted about The Four Agreements by Miguel Ruiz, another great source.
The difficulties of ADHD almost force one to learn transcendence of difficulties. I first got into spirituality when I was living with my son's dad who also has ADHD. Back then it was undiagnosed and I'm afraid I was not very understanding...so working on doing better with my son.
oww...Is it a choice or a handicap?
Submitted by c ur self on
If the inability to take care of the pets is because he doesn't care what happens to the pets? that is one thing...But, if his inability to be consistent with pet care is because he mentally isn't capable, that is another thing...
If someone is handicapped physically or mentally do we fail to respect them? My suggestion is to try and separate it out....Don't let the burden on you to do all the pet care cause you to bring the respect piece into it....
Just as a reminder:....The pain of the physical burdens can produce negative feelings, that if allowed to pile up will manifest as resentment...All I know is a person must be a student of their own hearts ahead of any other person....Self-awareness is #1....If a person refuses to be a victim, then they can handle most any circumstance....
C
He's capable....
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
He's capable, but he's inconsistent. They're not supposed to have people food, but he'll break that rule. One of the pets has diabetes, so his diet must be controlled. Another pet is very small, so misfeeding is very bad.
OWW we see things a little different.....
Submitted by c ur self on
(He's capable, but he's inconsistent. )
This statement you made here is where you and I probably think differently....When it comes to the care of something living; my mind says inconsistency = not capable.
C
C...I think it's "all of the above"!!!
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
My H would admit that he's selfish with his time (his entire family is this way). They would NEVER think to volunteer their time at church or anywhere else. In fact, the dad got inadequate healthcare because the younger/wiser-kids wouldnt take the time to make sure he was seeing the right type of specialist, etc. In fact, one son, who does NOT work, and who lives about 30 minutes away, said that he wouldn't go with "dad" to any appts because he didnt want to deal with any traffic.
There is little to no self-control, because little was modeled for them while they grew up.
They were allowed to do what they wanted, when they wanted. If mom brought home a bag of chips from the grocery, it wasn't unusual for the first child to see it, to grab it and take it to his room for himself.
When they would break or lose or mistreat something, no big deal. Their mom would just buy new.
The family strongly touted that they, "do what they want," and they "do what makes them happy," and "no one is going to tell them what to do!". They have little/no respect for authority figures. In fact, they get some sick thrill when they go out of their way to thumb their noses at authority. For instance, when one brother got married, he refused to wear the suit or tux that had been selected. Instead he showed up at his FORMAL wedding wearing a cartoon T shirt! And when he graduated from law school, and the school took formal pics of each graduate (school tradition), he insisted on having his pic taken with a Monster MASK ON! And, they all "high five" themselves after their antics.
Your presents and example can help break the mold...OWW.
Submitted by c ur self on
Sounds like a special group....We are never very far from our raising, any of us....If a person has no conviction's to mange their lives in a responsible manner their always just going to be a loose cannon....And it's really hard to a void the fallout....You've always sounded very aware to me...I think you do about as good a job as can done under the circumstance's....
I sure wish the best for y'all.....
C
Yes! Absolutely
Submitted by DependentOrigination on
Resource hog... Not the nicest way of phrasing it, but apt. How did you teach this to your husband without causing an argument? My husband does the same thing, and I was taught the other extreme, that you look after other people before you look after yourself.
I have seen my husband take 3/4 of the food available when there are four people leaving the rest of us staring at the left over amount in shock. I have watched as my husband hands me the excess amount of gear he brought along camping because he wants to have a lighter pack (WTF?! What about me and my pack?!).
I would love to learn how to teach him to be less of a resource hog.
Why do you think people with ADHD are resource hogs? What resou
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
<<<
Why do you think people with ADHD are resource hogs? What resources are they hogging and why? Attention? Approval? Validation? I think this is very likely the case with your husband and that's the reason for it. In fact....I would lay money on it.
<<<
I find that many people with ADHD are resource hogs because they tend to be self-centered, self-focused, and spend little time wondering, "Is this fair," "am I expecting or demanding more of someone's time or resources? Think of the stories about able-bodied men who stay home playing video games instead of working to support their wives and kids. Instead, the wives are doing double-duty. And, there are a few men who have to do "double duty" because their wives ADHD or more.
I also agree with your premise that many who post here are dealing with partners that have MORE than ADHD, and very likely do have a personality disorder.
I'll give you an example of what I had to teach my H early on (and shocking that I would have to teach this to someone who had several siblings - normally this lesson would have been taught AT HOME as a CHILD.)
Imagine that you're at a party and there are about 15 guests. The hostess brings out a plate of about 15 cupcakes. Would you quickly grab 2 or 3 cupcakes? Well, you might if you were a 3 year old or you hadn't been taught ANY manners.
An early red flag that H was a resource hog (and oblivious to the needs of others) was on Christmas we went to my aunt's home for a lovely very early dinner (around 2 pm). Dessert was served around 5pm. Then around 7pm, my aunt asked if anyone was hungry for a sandwich. Several guests (mostly men) raised their hands. Understandably...it was really like a later dinner. My aunt returned from the kitchen with a platter of about 6-8 large submarine like sandwiches ....where ONE was plenty big....filled with a thick slice of prime rib and some cheese.
With TWO HANDS, my H immediately grabbed TWO sandwiches (one in each hand). Not only did this look very uncouth, but it was embarrassing because obviously, there wasn't enough for people to have two, and now likely someone wasn't going to get a sandwich. My aunt quickly returned to the kitchen to make another sandwich (thankfully she had enough to do so).
Later, I told my H how impolite that was, and how it's proper to take ONE, then let everyone else have a chance, and then AFTER eating the one, IF he's still hungry and IF there are any left, then maybe take another....but only after making SURE that everyone has had a chance to get one.
In more recent times: H and I both like hummas. Buying one large container isn't enough, since H will mow thru one like it's water. I tried buying two and putting his name on one and my name on the other. FAIL...he still ate both, often before I'd even have a chance at a tiny spoonful. Then I tried buying THREE, putting his name on TWO and my name on ONE. FAIL AGAIN. Buying FOUR gives me somewhat of a chance to have a serving or two with some pita chips. With FOUR in the fridge, I'll open mine, take a little bit, and typically will either never see the container again, or will see a tiny bit remaining.
Only someone completely self-focused does this.
When our kids were younger, they would often have to bring an assigned item for a class function (like soda, water bottles, chips, cookies, whatever). The first time, I put the purchased or baked items on the kitchen counter (with a reminder to everyone that this was for XXXX to take to school the next day). The next morning, I woke up to find that H had mowed thru the food or drink. He said "I forgot." Got mad, and refused to go and replace it. The next time, I put a huge sign on the item saying, "Don't touch, For XXXX school tomorrow." Fail again. And again H was angry and refused to go early to the store to replace. After that, I would just put a sign reminding me and the kids to bring the item the next day, but I would HIDE the item somewhere so that it wouldn't get eaten or drank.
Defense Mechanisms...Which Issue and What to Apply?
Submitted by kellyj on
I don't know if this will be helpful.....and to be honest with you....I'm struggling to find the answer to what to do myself (with my wife?). But I recognize that she is using all of these primitive defenses to keep herself in denial and protect her from what she does not want to see or admit to herself. In this discussion.....were talking about multiple defense mechanisms (not just one) and yes......these are the ones you learn when your a child. If you never learn better ones.....your stuck with the ones you got.
If anything.....i think it useful to recognize these so you don't get sucked in and play into them. The only thing you can really do is nothing and don't enter the ring and accept that this is what is happening. What to do about this in the future....I don't have an answer?
But as you said.....later....your husband calms down and is reasonable after the fact. Primitive defense mechanism (same ones used by a child) are short term answers or responses to immediate problems......."in the now".
Primitive Defense Mechanisms
1. Denial
Denial is the refusal to accept reality or fact, acting as if a painful event, thought or feeling did not exist. It is considered one of the most primitive of the defense mechanisms because it is characteristic of early childhood development. Many people use denial in their everyday lives to avoid dealing with painful feelings or areas of their life they don’t wish to admit. For instance, a person who is a functioning alcoholic will often simply deny they have a drinking problem, pointing to how well they function in their job and relationships.
2. Regression
Regression is the reversion to an earlier stage of development in the face of unacceptable thoughts or impulses. For an example an adolescent who is overwhelmed with fear, anger and growing sexual impulses might become clingy and start exhibiting earlier childhood behaviors he has long since overcome, such as bedwetting. An adult may regress when under a great deal of stress, refusing to leave their bed and engage in normal, everyday activities.
3. Acting Out
Acting Out is performing an extreme behavior in order to express thoughts or feelings the person feels incapable of otherwise expressing. Instead of saying, “I’m angry with you,” a person who acts out may instead throw a book at the person, or punch a hole through a wall. When a person acts out, it can act as a pressure release, and often helps the individual feel calmer and peaceful once again. For instance, a child’s temper tantrum is a form of acting out when he or she doesn’t get his or her way with a parent. Self-injury may also be a form of acting-out, expressing in physical pain what one cannot stand to feel emotionally.
4. Dissociation
Dissociation is when a person loses track of time and/or person, and instead finds another representation of their self in order to continue in the moment. A person who dissociates often loses track of time or themselves and their usual thought processes and memories. People who have a history of any kind of childhood abuse often suffer from some form of dissociation. In extreme cases, dissociation can lead to a person believing they have multiple selves (“multiple personality disorder”). People who use dissociation often have a disconnected view of themselves in their world. Time and their own self-image may not flow continuously, as it does for most people. In this manner, a person who dissociates can “disconnect” from the real world for a time, and live in a different world that is not cluttered with thoughts, feelings or memories that are unbearable.
5. Compartmentalization
Compartmentalization is a lesser form of dissociation, wherein parts of oneself are separated from awareness of other parts and behaving as if one had separate sets of values. An example might be an honest person who cheats on their income tax return and keeps their two value systems distinct and un-integrated while remaining unconscious of the cognitive dissonance.
6. Projection
Projection is the misattribution of a person’s undesired thoughts, feelings or impulses onto another person who does not have those thoughts, feelings or impulses. Projection is used especially when the thoughts are considered unacceptable for the person to express, or they feel completely ill at ease with having them. For example, a spouse may be angry at their significant other for not listening, when in fact it is the angry spouse who does not listen. Projection is often the result of a lack of insight and acknowledgement of one’s own motivations and feelings.
7. Reaction Formation
Reaction Formation is the converting of unwanted or dangerous thoughts, feelings or impulses into their opposites. For instance, a woman who is very angry with her boss and would like to quit her job may instead be overly kind and generous toward her boss and express a desire to keep working there forever. She is incapable of expressing the negative emotions of anger and unhappiness with her job, and instead becomes overly kind to publicly demonstrate her lack of anger and unhappiness.