Sleepless here. Vacation with children, their father’s absence so painful.
There’s much talk about healthy boundaries. One’s supposed to make one’s own and enforce them. When codependent, one has let things get out of hand, which makes for unhealthy compromises.
Today I’m thinking the main problem with severe ADD in my partner has been his inability to communicate his boundaries. He could demand certain things. For instance he wanted me to continue to entertain his (presumably raging ADHD) mother after she’d proven openly hostile. He wanted me to mindread him when he didn’t communicate. He’d prefer not to work. At the same time he criticized me for working too hard. He couldn’t be expected to cook, plan meals, or make sure food didn’t go to waste. He also felt our home should be his place to relax, and was reluctant to have any guests except his mother and childhood friends. Our children’s friends couldn’t come over. I guess those were boundaries he wanted, so sure, he could communicate some.
The problem was really in relation to my needs. He did things for me to meet my needs. That’s what he claims now, and I believe it. But he apparently gave out things he couldn’t account for in himself. And so he would blame me later, during the cyclical late night blowups. When the marriage ended, he told me he’d never been able to stand up for himself with me, but now he was going to make things right.
I’m trying to understand the compromises he made that violated his boundaries. Was he aware of giving out what he didn’t own? And what did he do for me? I think he refers to emotional elasticity but can’t recall any specific event that would describe the unfortunate dynamic.
I was stretched terribly thin in this relationship and depleted myself. However, until divorce I felt it was accounted for. I suffered, but I loved him. I’d clearly communicate and argue to defend my boundaries, and I refused things that I couldn’t emotionally afford. I took responsibility for my part.
I’m so disappointed he didn’t do the same. If he had, there could still be respect and kindness between us. Now there’s an abyss.
I’d give anything to have known what he did to accommodate my needs, but secretly didn’t allow. If I’d known, I could at least have refused to accept it.
He’d probably say I never listened to him or respected his needs. Despite the fact our family’s entire life was molded on his untreated ADD.
His miscommunication of his boundaries is my biggest disappointment.
Comments
this sounds a lot like my ex
who would, when I was struggling with his behaviour, say ‘well there’s all sorts of things I could say about you, but I choose not to; I’m better than that.’ and I’d be ‘like what? what do I do?’ and he’d shake his head and be all superior and refuse to say, OR he’d dredge up something from 25 years ago, which had not actually been something I’d done, but had been someone else that I’d mentioned to him.
He’s got nothing but his own need to feel blameless.
Boundaries...
Boundaries in a marriage signify the absence of something when it comes to the reality of each others lived out lives...When we as individuals use our own thinking to determine what must go on between us, (two different sets of demands) there will always be a need for boundaries because (even if love is present between us) it's very unlikely that agreement will occur...It's just the human factor...
c
And when boundary violations were pointed out
When I pointed out the ways he’d finally trampled all over my boundaries, he struggled to comprehend. I still don’t think he knows why I want minimum contact at this point. He struggles to understand there is still a relationship (co-parenting, needing trust, decency, accountability) between us even though the romantic relationship is over. It seems he couldn’t at the time of divorce realize the violent way he treated me would wreck that relationship, and there would be consequences affecting his beloved children. He now tries to preach the need for kindness and respect to me, while I want to throw up at his mere presence due to deception trauma.
Perhaps his boundaries, as well as mine, are not noticeable to him. Is that why he has no notion of when to stop giving out what he can’t afford? Like he refers to he ‘feels’ some things are fair, but cannot present a verbal explanation to why. And like he can act remorseful and ashamed about his actions for years, with the occasional frustration blow up, but then suddenly decide his shortcomings never happened, or didn’t have any effect. Much like he seeems to believe his hurtful shouting has no effects, and when over have disappeared from the dialogue.
He acts more like jelly than anything with a backbone. Perhaps that’s why boundaries don’t apply to him.
Why can’t I let go of this futile struggle to wrap my head around it?
You hit on something here I think is vital...
This doesn't pertain to all ADD minds I've encountered, but it seems to be a common theme with many high level ADDers....
The inability to feel, remember, own, recall, see themselves...The reason many of us non's have lived for years in the same mind you are asking why about, is because we can't accept what we can't comprehend...Our hearts and brains feel, remember, own, recall, see ourselves...It took me years to understand these things are missing in her brain and heart...
Why do you think over 11 years ago my screen name became c ur self??
Bless you Swedish Coast....
c
There it is
I had a little revelation here.
Thank you C.
"When the marriage ended, he
"When the marriage ended, he told me he’d never been able to stand up for himself with me."
I'm not sure if it's a universal experience for people with ADHD, but as someone with ADHD, I know I've often felt this way. ADHD symptoms make it very difficult to feel confident in identifying and communicating boundaries because if you as a person with ADHD are aware of the symptoms, then you're aware of how they condition your experience.
For example, if I suddenly feel a rush of rage at how messy my house feels to me, is that because my spouse has failed to follow through on an agreement we made to each do our fair share of cleaning, or is that because work has taxed my capacity for executive functioning more than usual, and now I'm feeling overwhelmed by what is a normal and manageable level of mess that could and will be easily be cleaned? Am I forgetting the ways that I failed to clean during the week? Am I forgetting that there was a lot on the calendar this week and so we both didn't have as much time to do our normal cleaning routine?
If you can't answer those questions for yourself, then it's almost impossible to have a stable conception of your own boundaries and whether you should or shouldn't communicate them to your partner. What ends up happening is you either end up deferring to the non-ADHD partner in every conflict about boundaries because you can't trust yourself, or you become overly defensive about what you perceive your boundaries to be because you feel like if you don't, you'll be infantilized and your boundaries will be subordinated to your parnter's.
That is enlightening
Thank you NorthCountry. A little revelation too.
"When the marriage ended,
Accidental double reply.
Emotional Elasticity
"While resilience focuses on "bouncing back" from adversity, emotional elasticity focuses on how emotions change and adapt in the face of ongoing challenges."
Swedish, I've given your post some thought, especially a few things that you said as I am trying to understand this topic too for my own reasons.
"One’s supposed to make one’s own ( boundaries) and enforce them. When codependent, one has let things get out of hand, which makes for unhealthy compromises."
I'm focusing on the "letting things get out of hand" part for now. In my case, I don't think I just sat back and let things get out of hand. Continuing.....
"Today I’m thinking the main problem with severe ADD in my partner has been his inability to communicate his boundaries."
My overall sense is not an "Inabilty to communicate boundaries" as much as an inability to communicate in an effective, understandable way? In essence, the way or method it's being communicated...not, that it's not being communicated at all.
I'm thinking in terms of my SO. I've found that her way of communicating is more of the problem. An example, for comparison, would be passive aggressive style of communication. As it's been said, it doesn't really let the other person know what the problem is, or even what you're angry about? But it's still communicating something.
I was thinking about mindreading that you mentioned. And assuming the other person just somehow knows? ( somehow ) I've often wondered where this comes from?
Going back to the top statement about emotional elasticity: how emotions change and adapt in the face of on going challenges. That means, as I read it, in the present moment.
In another forum, I read a list describing inattentive women with ADHD. Two items on the list stood out immediately: Irritability and impatience. Impatience is a big one with my SO. I connect it to low frustration tolerance and becoming easily overwhelmed. I follow that with Irritability and these things all fit fairly neatly together. It's what I witness regularly and it seems to fit. All, in the moment. Not really communicating with words...more in context to a given situation. Also, mindreading comes into play or at least, a belief that this has been discussed in an understandable way in order to predict it coming to do something ahead of time.
Comments like : " I told you" come to mind. Well, I may argue that in the moment. "I told you" infers there was a clear communication but without that understanding, "I told you" means nothing. You may have thought you "told me" but, this is where things get out if hand. In the same, acting out or being passive aggressive isn't talking....but it's definitely telling you something. What exactly, is not always clear? If the other person thinks it is...then "I told you" might means something to them?
In my case, impatience has a language. It's the language of: urgency, needing it now, can't wait, irritation, lack of understanding, and control. Control ( in this case ) is making the feelings go away as fast as possible before they escalate. I also think, prioritizing is based on a feeling, not on a rational thought process.
So, if it's not based on a rational thought process and on a feeling....how do you communicate that to another person effectively? I don't think you can?
Which is why I said, it's not, an inabilty to communicate boundaries as much as an inabilty to communicate ( effectively), period?
Just my thoughts on the matter...and the reasons I think this happens? At least in part. And yes, it's still attached to the common list of ADHD symptoms.
J
Rational thought
Thanks J for your thoughts.
When reding your text I’m reminded of the difficulty of finding logic and reason in a relationship over time. Time together with a loved one is so fleeting and hard to describe, isn’t it? One reacts to a partner’s frowns or quick breathing. One remembers a previous conflict in a similar situation. On deducts, tries to paste together thousands of moments and reactions, to understand where one stands, where one’s partner stands. One is surprised by events that seem to lack inherent logic or causality.
My ADD ex seems highly irrational and also secretive about his thoughts. Just thinking of it now gives me heart palpitations. I think more rational and verbal people are easier to be with.
Even if we’re all also dependent on reading our loved ones by their body language, their tone of voice, the depth of their breathing, I feel there needs to be clarity when asked for. A yes is yes. A promise is not forgotten. And a loved one’s boundaries are visible so I don’t overstep unknowing.
Swedish ....I just had a relevant conversation
with my SO this morning. This could also be a snapshot of what others face under the same circumstances including yourself.
"My ADD ex seems highly irrational and also secretive about his thoughts..... I think more rational and verbal people are easier to be with."
Starting here, I have a few things to say. These are my own thoughts about my particular situation and the person I'm with, but, there are some universal similarities that I can't not see.
I'll start with the conversation. This is so typical and normal for her to do. I now have a better understanding of this ( pattern ) which actually starts to makes sense. I'm starting to understand her comunication style better I guess.
I also cannot forget, she most definitely falls into the avoidant category so nothing really makes sense if I forget to use that template.
She starts ( when she is just leaving for work ) this is a control strategy ( unconsciously ) to control the length of time the conversation will last. She begins with:" Please don't take offense at this but.....I really enjoyed the time you took to go camping and on your motorcycle ralley ..."
I was already way ahead of her. I did that in part, to create some space. When she starts feeling "crowded " or the need for space ( alone time ) she'll begin with the usual ramping up of complaining and criticizing and basically....pushing me away. Okay, I get the program. This is the avoiden pattern and I'm now understanding what it means.
Instead of coming out and saying so in the beginning....or even having the actually conversation we had this morning ( first )....there had to be this cycle of pattern of pushing away, me feeling kind of hurt ( but doing my best not to let it affect me ) ...me starting to feel lonely ( disconnected ) , and then I feel ( needy ) and begin to act on it. This just drives her further away and then she gets impatience and irritable. Which actually works. I really back off and that happens because it's simply not pleasant to be around. I become stoic and silent and try not to talk too much. I let any insults or negative comments slide. It's all part of this dynamic. It's intended to "create space " and its exactly what it does.
I've managed to read this pretty accurately now, and giving space works well to avoid conflict which we've had very little lately.
But eventually, I get tired of the "bad attitude" part and the daily nit picking...the being "prickly " part. So, I plan some fun by myself and there's no issues from her.
But the problem is....we're not having fun together. That's what upsets me most. I don't have a problem enjoying myself alone, but if we're not creating fun times and memories then that really is an issue. That actually makes me depressed.
And I recognized this and decided to go camping by myself. I'll only mention, a friend gave me some mushrooms, so I felt the timing was good. I went to a remote area with lots of star gazing ( there's even a observatory and telescope at state park ) so hiking around at night and climbing some big sand dunes was a perfect evening. Lots of meteors, the milky way, etc. I enjoyed myself immensely.
So none of this is a major problem in the end...because part of this mornings conversation was to tell me that she actually likes me better when I go away and come back from one of these adventures. It gives her the space she needs and me a break from the negativity.
This was about a 5 minute conversation but I did speak up at one point only to say " Yeah...I dont think Im as ( needy ) as you think". Her reply was " but that's my perception..." which I also understand. From someone whos avoidant, those feelings are real. Just because I'm not feeling that way, doesn't mean she's not feeling it from me. What's she's actually feeling from me is my depression...not me, being overtly needy except when I get to missing sex, which also means, I'm missing physical affection and contact. I'm resigned about the sex, but I still need my love language met sometimes...in the form of touching and physical affection. That is a need.
And that's the part where we don't connect at times. She's say ( needy ) in the negative ( for her ) as it pushes her away more than usual. I'm not getting this need met period, so I'm experiencing a form of deprivation. That's the feeling. That's not because I'm needy....it's because I'm being deprived of something I need to feel close. When I don't get it, it feels cold and hard. That definitely doesn't help with depression so ...I have to take matters into my own hands and do what I need to do. My depression ( or happiness ) is not her ( or anyone else's) responsibility. That's up to me, to do something about it.
Sorry for the ramble but I think you might get my drift. Going back to communication and "more rational and verbal people" being easier to deal with.
YES ! If she could come to me and say exactly what she said this morning...we could have avoided all that non verbal, needing to mind read, and experiencing this avoidant pushing away....only to go through this cycle....just to get to the bottom line !
Which was: "when you're home all the time, I start to feel ( irritable ) and a need to get away and do things without you."
Thats a pretty rational statement. One I fully understand. I have no problem with that. What I do have a problem with ( or at least my frustrations ) is having to go through this entire process I including the withdrawing behavior ( pushing away ) just to have her tell me what I already know.
I went camping, knowing all if this, and it worked as it always has in every regard.
This still leaves the doing fun things together since, right now, she's into doing fun things without me. She has sisters and friends from work so she can call on them anytime.
I, on the other hand, dont have that instant availability however, the things I enjoy most are always available. I told her, Id rather do then with other people ( and her ) but, I still get a lot out of it by myself. I dont need others to have fun but, at times, it makes it better if everyone is on the same page and connecting and enjoying it together. This is the part ....she has difficulty understanding. I think its something you need to experience, you cant just explain it to someone and think they'll understand.
J
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Pushing you away on her turf
J, I’m sorry this is happening. I know you live far from those closest to you, so she’s really on her home turf while you’re not. It looks to me like an uneven dynamic, you living at her place and often feeling pushed away.
In her shoes, I’d recognize it would be more fair to get a new home for the two of you. But even if that’s not on the table, she’d be decent to help with the planning so needs are met. It shouldn’t all be about you leaving home, backing off when feeling unwanted. She could offer to spend alone time away on a regular basis.
Also, it would be decent of her to offer you ideas for fun things for you to share. That, in my book, comes with owning the territory. Frankly, I think she could act a little more like a host, if everything has to be on her terms only.
Would you prefer to have your own place nearby? Then perhaps these issues would be easier?
It is not easy on both sides
Back when I didn't really understand how ADHD is affecting our marriage, I used to question why my ADHD partner wouldn't speak up and why I always second guess myself if I should or should not say something to my partner because I was afraid of how he would take it. It wasn't until we learnt to communicate with each other, I finally realized by my partner didn't speak up in the past. It wasn't because he didn't want to communicate, it was because he didn't have the confidence to communicate. He was afraid...afraid that I would not hear what he was say (this is true in retrospect) and afraid of my reaction because I could invalidate what he was saying based on my neurotypical mindset (it is common we just our standard to measure our partners. However, our standard might not be aligned with theirs, creating misalignment of how we see things) . So he chose to keep quiet as for his, it was a "safe" thing to do. Now, we both have honed in on how to properly communicate with each other, we are both more confident in expressing our boundaries and needs without any hesitation. Does that mean he wouldn't drop the ball even he was clear on communicating his needs, his feelings, etc.? No, but an overwhelming majority of the time, we understand each other and live a pretty happy life together.
N4ally2