I am so discouraged. I try very hard to be supportive and understanding and adapt my life so that things will go well with my ADD spouse. Although I have 20 years of marriage with which to draw thousands of examples, I don't think I need to here. Many people will have lived with what I live with and will not need the anecdotes. But when I am genuinely making innocent conversation and honestly trying to be understanding and then to be slammed with a statement from him like "With that kind of condescending, insulting garbage coming out of your mouth is it any wonder I live with stress!"...I am left stunned. How can my husband hear something so opposite to what I meant or said. It is not rare. It is constant. It seems the only way I can keep peace is to drastically limit my words. To lower my face so no response can be seen. And to take his side and agree with everything he says. Oh he can be so cutting and cruel! If I deserved it i suppose it would be easier to handle. But I live with false accusation. And so, like I said, his easily offended nature had made me so discouraged.
Easily Irritated and Misunderstandings
Submitted by twobytwo on 08/04/2017.
It's not you
Submitted by Merit on
So, I could have written that same email you did. I'm so sorry to say, but you've written very poignantly, captured the essence of 20 years and a family together, only to be snapped at if you're merely perceived as challenging. For me, that feels like...if only I tried harder, or didn't look him in the eye, or basically made my own thoughts smaller, maybe then he wouldn't be offended. And for me, I'm just about done with it. I can't be a shell of a person, hoping he doesn't mind what I'd like to talk about, or that I might have needs.
I'm sorry you're experiencing this, but you're not alone in that experience, and frankly, you don't deserve it.
What you are describing
Submitted by AdeleS6845 on
What you are describing sounds like me during my 17 year marriage.
My ex husband was constantly critical of me, and verbally abusive. I kept my responses to him short and to the point, and rarely met his gaze.
My eyes were downcast most of the time. The slightest thing would set him off. The best and most difficult thing I did was leave. It took me a long time. I felt like I was losing my mind.
I'm sorry you are being treated like this. You deserve better.
Here's an old thread on this topic
Submitted by Chevron on
Toward beginning of that thread most posts are on the thread topic, but later posts veer off into other topics.
I never have read a professional explanation of how it is that in the face of a partner's complete silence, or calm mood, or factual remark about something entirely disconnected from the other partner (one thread participant merely said, on approaching a toll booth, "I dont have change" which set off a torrent of foul tempered accusations that she was being mean to her spouse) produces an accusation that she was thinking or saying, actually saying something opposite of what she was. That 180 degree opposite and ALWAYS negative presumption is a good question. Never have read a professional tackle the 180 degree opposite question. I've sure experienced it though. It's taking a good thing and making it into something bad, or insisting something bad out of it, whatever the mental thing is that happens inside the accuser.
The Meta Problem
Submitted by kellyj on
It's never about, what is going on or being said and this just happened and I'm really really angry right now. I think this is a good time to express this problem right now when I am feeling so upset since I do know exactly what I am upset about and '"what the PROBLEM IS. I'm also saying, that this will be the last time this ever happens since I've taken care of that once and for all.
Stating the Meta problem: "IMPATIENCE and Aggression" This, is what I want acknowledgment of...and an apology for...and she refused, one last time.
The behaviors and the results are what are most frustrating and hurtful.... or as said., the extenuating problems from "IMPATIENCE" in behaviors as they manifest themselves: Demanding. Bossy, Irritation, Blaming, Accusing, Lying, Accepting Responsibility, Admitting Wrong Doing ,Accountability and Acknowledgement, Impertinence ie: lack of respect and rudeness. and the worst, trying to turn all of this back on me...when I become upset after all of these things happening to me in the moment.
On my end, I have an expectation that is not getting met. Acknowledgment of wrong doing ie: "Yes, I am impatient, demanding, bossy and rude. It's completely disrespectful to you and I am way out of line. It's very presumptuous of me to think otherwise and I'm sorry if that has hurt you or caused you any distress....what was I thinking, you are doing me a favor? How rude and uncalled for.......I am so impatient. Can you forgive me?"
That right there, would make it all better. Just that one sentence, is all I have ever asked for.....and she refuses to give it to me and will not acknowledge ME.....or the fact that she was the cause of this offense...not only that, she turns it back on me when I get upset or angry at ( THIS the META PROBLEM RIGHT HERE )...........not the "little comment " at the Toll Booth about some inane tiny thing.....or some isolated thing that's connected to this " other thing".
Yes, that is the problem always.....these "unseen or unexplainable moments and someone just goes off and you are scratching you head going......what did I do? Well, it's not "what you did right then that second".......it's what you "DO"......on going is the problem? If you only see the straw......then you won't see all the other straws on the Camels back. That pretty much sums it up right there.
But the second ( META PROBLEM ) which is no less BIG.......was stated in the other post by a woman with ADHD. As I read it.....it jumped right off the page. He makes a lot of assumptions and can't even see that he is assuming.
And that right there, is the ( META, META PROBLEM ) that finally ended it today. I told my wife, I would do her brakes on her car today. This was a courtesy for her....so she could avoid the cost of a dealership. This was also a courtesy for her, since she had some things to get and pack as she said she would do. It is a lot more convenient for her to kill two birds with one stone and....I am not going to charge her ( next to nothing ) for labor cost on my end. I am basically doing it for free....with me being available "today...all day for her" so she could come over and for me to do it. We discussed this the other day....the second time she came over to make sure I would still do it......( the first pester or poke ) since I told her two days before I would do it today. We agreed upon a time....I discussed all the contigencies and the possibilities and told her that ":every car is different, and they all have thier own unique problems"...as I attempted to do it last week but one bolt was rusted on too tight and I needed my impact hammer to get it off....so the last two days and this morning ( still working on it ).....I got my compressor up and running again and installed my new pump.....just to do this job for her. I had no intention of doing the compressor now, I did it just for her brake job and took the time off my other things ...to get it set up for her today. With her already showing the sigsn of her impatience building with her making sure for today.
So here I am....today.;....and she arrives and everythings fine? She needed boxes...I got her boxes and took the time to do that and tape them up for her to load. Then I did the final bit of hook up for my compressor so I could do her brakes? No problem? And she broght je lunch.....which was really nice, but I took the time to eat lunch too...since I was hungry and it was lunch time and that took 20 minutes or so? So to add up the time here...there was lunch and food, finding boxes, taping boxes, chatting moment, pulling my tools out..and it hot outside? Hot enough to be sweating...so I came inside to cool off and have some water before I walked out and did her brakes. And she had at least 1/2 hr 45 minutes of time in packing up stuff before she would be ready to leave herself?
I sit down on the couch to cool off from "sweating" and getting cold drink of water.....and she walks in to the room and says "Maybe we can do this another day" Do what another day? "Come back to do the brakes next week when your ready" Wha the Fuck are you talking about, you in a hurry? "Well, what am I gonna do here ...you said it would only take two hours and it been 4 already.
I lost it. It hadn't been 4 hours....less than that but who cares? I was getting her "boxes"...I was taping "her boxes".....I was gettting all my tools ready since had haven't used my compressor in 9 months and I just got it finished. After a couple of days of getting it all worked out.....in sweltering heat outside...to be ready for her....."today.......ALL DAY.......if needed"......I never told her how long it would be. Never. She asked how long "could it be"..and I told her STRAIGHT OUT OF MY MOUTH.......well, ca couple of hours BUT IT NE ER ENDS UP BEING THAT ......NEVER NEVER NEVER!!! "
She heard "2 hours".......so why are you sitting on the couch taking a break when I'll be done here in 45 minutes and I won't have anything to do." Actually, what she said was.....maybe we could do it next week when you ready like you said you would be. Such a small little innocuous statement/question.......what did I do wrong?
I got really really angry and told her off completely. I told her waht she did, I told her what I did, I told her what I said to her the last time we met or talked about this...I told her that she's impatient, demanding, and has a bad case of selective hearing..and that might have been the rudest most disrespectful thing I have ever witnessed in my life. No.....you can't have another day of "my time " you selfish little girl.......NO, I'm here now like I said.....I'm doing it now and if it takes until 7:00pm....then that is what it'll take? Who cares if your bored or have nothing to do.......what a selfish rude and completely disrepectful thing to do or say.........in light of the fact that I'm doing you a favor?????
Her reply is not even worth repeating since I did not get what I expected or wanted from that exchange except...on top of it...she threatened me. She threatened that if I didn't calm down...she was going to call 9/11.......the roll over the play the vitctim....."ooo, your hurting me....help help....he being mean!!" or "feigning"...since the only thing that could have hurt was the Truth...cause that's what that was.
That was the last straw right there. I got in her face and I ordered her "off my property".....officially, right then that moment....dropp everything..do not pass go...do not collect $200 dollars do not finish with what you are doing....."OUT THE DOOR NOW!!
And I marched her straight to the car..and in a very loud voice made this statement announcing it loud enough that any near by could hear. "You are offically give notice, that you are to never come onto my property for any reason with my express permission...in writing. This will be the one and only notice you will be given......to leave immediately" And you know, even then, she started yelling "Help, help....call 9/11".....while I was kicking her off my property where she no longer resides since the house in my name and all the above. Then, I came inside and wrote her an email ( in writing and did a follow up text on her phone. The second she showed her hand like that as a "bluff" and said the words 9-11.....I had no choice but to protect myself, and I immediately called the Sheirffs office as a follow up just to go on record. That's all they will do...it just gets recorded and dated just in case. I do not play games and I do not bluff and I do not do what she does......ever.
This is not about today, or this week of last week.....this is the Meta Problem.....and the Meta Conversation, that she refuses to have....refuses to listen to and refuses to take responsibility for? She thinks this is about today or this week.....this is about the last 3 years and the straw the broke the Camel back. All she had to do...was show a little pateince...and she can't do it even once time.......and ackowledge me as a person. Not even once can she she do this..and now look at what she gets?
Nothing. Her brakes aren't done....her stuff is still here...and she is Shit our of luck on that one. For good this time. You cannot treat people this way....and expect them not to get angry? Self sabotage behond rediculous.....one sentence would have fixed it...and she could do it. Not even once. Good riddence, no more chances now, she used her last card..and she decided to play it just like I said;. The way she always does....with no integrity or character ...and won't step dopwn off her high horse long enough to simply say O'm sorry but she doesn't see it that way? All she sees what me, getting angry at her and that is all she can see. Who needs that kind of grief? I certaintly don't. I have never seen the inability for grace.....taken to such a low level in my entire life.
This is your official communication, to put you on notice, that if you come on to my property at XXXXXXX...at any time without express permission granted by myself for any reason ....I will be forced to call the County Sheriffs department as per my phone conversation with them already stating the intention and stating why I am forced to do this with you. You have a key to the property. Since you have officially changed your living address and are currently living in XXXX with XXXXX you no longer have the right to come to my home and property unannouced and walk in the door as if you live here like you did which was a violation of my privacy under the law. If at any time. I find anything missing from my home that goes unaccounted for, I will assume that it is was you or a someone you know since you have the only known key to my house and property. Until I have time to change the locks and rekey them all .....Until further notice and without a written apology from you stating in writing , no exceptions will be granted. I have given you every opportunity to aplogize and make good on this with me but you refuse and I have no choice to but continue on this path. Until that time comes in writing....this is your official notification in writing, no others will be issued.
Sorry J...Man, that was a tough moment....
Submitted by c ur self on
Sorry you had to deal w/ that J...Selfishishness and unthankfulness are indeed blind....I've spent 9 years, hoping beyond hope...Just waiting and praying that I would experience her come to that one moment of clarity...(ownership)...That one moment where she actually was able to honestly see herself....I've wanted it so bad at times I would try to put the words in her mouth....But to no avail....
I think about the prophet Jeremiah....The heart is deceitful above all things; and desperately wicked..."Who can know it?"
Glad you got closer, just sorry it was in this manner....I know your intentions were just to serve her, and do her a favor in this matter....
Thank You For Your Support .....C
Submitted by kellyj on
This is one of those times when no one wins, and I am feeling a mixture of emotions and where I ask..."Did I do the right thing?" In what I did ( and I know this ) is that I took the position of assuming, the same as her, but I have a history to fall back on here....and that "history says"......"better safe than sorry". Do I trust, this person to become vulnerable to them, and will they have my best interest in mind? Can I trust them, not to throw me under the bus, when it serves their best interest to do so?
This pattern...or going around accusing you of things "you yourself are not doing"....is really a smoke screen I think? It is put up by...."the very person, doing this very thing...or at least, it's in their repertoire or possibilities...or they wouldn't be accusing you as such?" "He or She who smelt it......dealt it".......in action. It's the Homo-phobe...who is secretly or closet gay who hates all GAY PEOPLE. It's the Alcoholic....who goes on a Crusade against Alcohol or drinking....once they've quit drinking themselves. And this is what I fear myself......being that person or like the ex-Alchoholic.....who is now judging others who still drink and condemning all Alcohol or those who drink it now.....once they're dry and no longer drink and becoming a hypocrite by doing so.
And with my own recognition of my ADHD and all the symptoms and all that goes with it.......it makes me look pretty bad to be the one calling the kettle black you know? But then again, I have to remember that I didn't know at the time, and I was not fighting against it like this. Not the level of denial that I refused to even discuss things or talk about things? All it took was my T to point out of few things to me early and I immediately said....."yeah, I do that....that's me". Owning it, and taking responsibility when I know I've done something wrong or hurtful....has never been the problem for me....even when I was in the "act of doing something wrong"......I knew I was......that's the point? I knew, I was choosing the wrong road, and I knew it even if I got caught, I didn't try and deny responsibility for the most part....within reason of course. Theres a big difference between what I see D doing and what I "did in the past".....but then again, I'm here now fully admitting anything you could bring up....openly and trying my best to take responsibility for my own actions and stay accountable? That doesn't mean I don't still not see things....what it means is you could bring it up and point it out and I would go....."oh crap, you're right. My bad, sorry"...end of story? Even for a little thing. Big things would require a better response but I'm saying.......I'd do that to if called upon by the situationa and I saw my failure to do something what ever it is?
The fact, I've done harmful things to people in the past and for different reasons for sure.....but the ones I was simply ignorant about, with no intention on my part....are the easiest ones to forgive myself for? Ignorance and not understanding what or why it was harmful only due to the ADHD symptoms that are difficult to see and how they affect others negatively? But myt willingness...or wantingness.....to know and be made aware of this......was and has always been there due to my own demands of myself to be responsible and to take responsibility for my own actions no matter what they are? I don't care that I didn't mean it.....what I care about is making repairs or restoring the situation as best I can. And doing so with intention for all intensive purposes. The people or the other person who I may have harmed......might forgive me...and they might not. They may choose to hate me for what I did....but I still owe them an apology and my best to make it right....on my own, without anyone having to twist my arm about it? And not sit and trying make excuses like a elementry schoool child who got caught with their hand in the cookie jar? "Well, Johnny did it....so I was just doing it too"....or......"Well Johnny stole mine, it's his fault that I had to take this one". Is it further to New York or by plane???? sheese!!!
And that is in part.....what I said to her last night something like "I can't believe that I am sitting here having to explain this to you? How old are you anyway.....I mean, this is like on a 3rd grade level of understanding??" which is exactly what it felt like? Like I was having to explain something so obviously wrong with what she was doing....that any 3rd grader if you ran them through it....would come to the same conclusion even if you drew them a picture and had to lead them to the well for them to see it? At the end of it.....most 3rd graders would probably reluctantly go....."yeah, you shouldn't steal cookies from the cookie jar, then try and blame it on Johhny? I mean, conceptually....how difficult is that to understand? I mean, conceptually....how difficult is that to understand?
And this is that thing, that popped up once with her brother too ( recalling ) Where we were renting a beach house, and the owner had books there for the renters to read and her brother thought it should be Okay "as he said it....to take one with you since they are their for the renters to read" And I had to explain it to him that, "While yes, they are there for us to read.....but not take home with us? I mean, they don't belong to us, they belong to the owner and the owner just has them out our sue while we're here? You can't go to the library and take books and not return them? Like what part of that don't you understand?"
I've got to make an admission to you or anyone else in a humorous sort of way. There is a show on TV ( on Netflix ) called "Trailer Park Boys".....which if you can imagine if you haven't seen it, takes place in a Trailer Park? LOL But when I stumbled across it, I became almost immediately enamored with two of the Characters named "Ricky and Julien"....for one and only one reason. My story of my two friends who lived on the farm and the "Day of the Chicken" story with the one brother who was out of control at all times and had to be constantly reigned in by his older brother......and the younger one who tore apart the entire yard and was destroying everything in sight while he ws chasing after this one last chicken......SOOO Reminded me of "Ricky" in the show....and then "Julien"....as his oldest brother...."the parent of the two and the only words of wisdom in sight" between the two of these guys...that this show resonated so deeply with my childhood experiences with these two ( in only the humor and the situations but namely the logic that "Ricky" employs at all times......is so funny and absolutely horrifying both at the same time. Which is why the show is so popular as I have come to understand?
And to the point in saying, that even then as a child, I was both amazed, horrified and laughing so had I couldn't move it was so beyond ridiculous at times. No matter what happened in any event....."Ricky", my friends little brother, made it so there was no truning back and everyone just started running because you knew there was no excuse to be made once he pulled the triggeer on what ever he did? He had a complete knack....for taking everything to a level, beyond that of what anyone else would ever dream of doing and he had no qualms about doing it.....and mostly without warning! LOL Running away....was your only option at any time because, if you were standing there, you'd be taking the fall!! LOL It wasn't his intention either....he just did what ever popped into his head with no limitations what so ever!!! I think he was 4 or 5...when he decided to go explore inside the neighborhood Bowling Alley.....and his mom got a call saying they caught him down at the end of the lanes....knocking pin over by hand? LOL This, was an enduring pattern.....just like day of the Chicken....and no matter how many times you tried to explain this to him.....he didn't really seem to get it? I mean really....he just didn't see what he was doing wrong even though he didn't set out to hurt anyone as his intetnion....and mostly he just "hurt things".........he left a wake of destruction in his path at all times!!
Just like "Ricky" in the show Trailor Park Boys"...which is pretty base, and pretty low brow....but when I saw it ( for the first time ever just a few months ago )...it so reminded me of my two childhood friends that I just watched it all the way through (10 seasons ) since it reminded me so much of these two brothers but taking it of course to a much more extreme level in the show. Which is their intention......it's just that they got the mentality down and all the craziness down to a T....it was so accurate. And I was re-living these childhood memories of these two brothers and all their antics but especially "Ricky" since I was kind of by "default" older brother to him too...and had to try and convince him that what he was doing or thinking was not such a good idea....even then!!!! LOL
And that is exactly what it feels like or has felt like with D and her brother at times? Like "dude.....who learned you!!! No you can't take the books home with you....what are you thinking?" Just like that??? But the reality is, that something in the logic process is not saying this to them and they actually can't see what is wrong with it until you point it out to them? And the same with my wife at times with her behavior? Like "C'mon......what part of this are you not getting? I'm no Angel or am posing as one here....but Dude.....really? I don't know what else or how esle to say it? I don't want to be the bad guy here and rain on your parade....but your rainging on mine so ....do you mind???" And yes, now your the bad guym and they make sure to point that out? So what is the problem here......their parade....or the fact that they are raining on yours and your upset because of it? Seems pretty obvious to me....but here I am, on the wrong side os the tracks? I'm guilty before AI even open my mougth and don't have much of a leg to stand on? Since I have ADHD and all.......I think you get the point? it makes it difficult to stand up and speak out against someone else doing anything "wrong"...unless you come across like a complete hypocrite yourself and look like your just calling the kettle black which only makes you ll worse not better as I full well know why.....but that still does not make me guilty in this case?
But in the moment, and when I had to make a decision.....the second I see that "thing"......rolling over and begging for mercy and threatening to call 9-11 to get me to shut up and not say the truth.....I mean, to that level....of refusing to here the truth....that aperson would be willing to bear false witness against you in a means to simply make you stop saying what they don't want to hear and nothing more than that? I mean, this wasn't any knock down drag out fight we were having, and she's leaving so what esle is there to fight about? I mean really? I only got uspet because she was being rude and disrespectful and apparently....had no FEELINGS WHAT SO EVER.....for the distress I was in aothough minor......just being over heated and needing a drink of water? It was painfully obvious what that was all about? I was sitting there cooling off and needed to rest and recover before I tackling her brakes.........and she saw me sitting there and was looking at her watch and only thinking of herself and how she wa going to have to wait......and she didn't want to? What she wanted in the moment, was me to e done when she was done so she could leave and not have to wait? It was all about her in the moment. What she was feeling, how she didn't want to have to wait.......how she was getting impateint and it was starting to build and how .......I don't want to........I want to.....startied coming out of her mouth?
Yeah right Ricky? Anything you want. LOL And at the end of it.......she end up threatening to call 9-11.....just so she won't have to hear about it or hear the truth. That, is when I knew, that my own safety might be compromised? The story of her mother......shooting a loaded gun off inside her apartment and hitting the lady downstairs asleep in her bed.......and saying, "It was his fault , for not having the safety on?" ( her husband at the time since it was his gun, but she was the one holding it, and pulled the trigger,right after she walked into the other room, pulled it out of a drawer, and was waving it around the room with two other people in it and as the story goes.....it went off, by accident? )
Is it further form New York or by plane? What is wrong with that picture? I mean really ....Ricky? lol
Purple Squirrel ( Ricky Hates Squirrels lol ) https://youtu.be/a0lauIE60oM
Learning when to quit...when enough is enough can be difficult..
Submitted by c ur self on
Yep, I understand....Our reactions belong to us, good, bad, for better, for worse....I know two wrongs don't make a right, but yet I keep engaging as you did....The disrespect is difficult to stomach...You would think I would learn....
"There is just no right way to do the wrong thing"
Submitted by Chevron on
As you describe your wife, J, she has a thing about invading your boundaries. That might be worth a look again. It's very all right to have adult boundaries.
You won't be able to fix her insides for her, OK. You don't have to be present for her acting out, especially if you two have separated just now.
I'd take days to settle down from an encounter like that one turned out. I hope you're all right.
Thank You......and Yes, Boundaries.
Submitted by kellyj on
It is tough, having grown up with someone who has no respect for others boundaries. Not only do you get to have none....but you come to realize that it makes no difference what you do, when a person has it in their mind they can do what ever they like when ever they feel like, and no one will stand in their way.......yet "they're the ones with no boundaries" and they certainly do not respond well when you try and place any "on them". This is what I've really discovered what they do. They will test you to see how far you will go, and they will keep pushing and pushing until you just give up and stop trying to fight them on it. That is, if you are even demanding or trying to in the fist place and not just going along with everything they want all the time anyway. This I found, is exactly what so many problmes were in my chilhood more than ODD per se? I was just trying to have "some boundaries" and I was fighting against someone who didn't allow anyone to have any in the first place? The fact that my father was gone so much.....allowed everyone to have them and establish them.....until this "person" walked into the room and everyone suddenly changed. It was very good...that my time was limited around this type of oppression since my father was a work-a-holic and pretty much worked all the time away from home. 6 days a week and sometimes 1/2 days on Sundays so....limited exposure in that case, was not such a bad thing?
But, once that happens, there "are no boundaries" for anyone except them. They determine ...Your boundaries for you but of course....they require you to have none for them. If you even dare to try? Being subject to this all the time is exhausting and having that presence there gets ( and got old ) really fast. I have no problem putting my foot down if needed.....I have a problem with someone who is relentless and will not give up trying. Even if you ground them....they still come back at you anytime your guard is down which is just ridiculous
If I understand you better, as I hear you.....are you saying to keep my eyes peeled and be prepared for something coming my way? The "acting out" while I'm not present or not around in some shape or form? My plan, if that's what I think your saying....is to box up all her stuff, make sure we are all square as soon as possible...and deliver her stuff to her friends ..willingly and without her asking? I don't want anything of hers...nor do I want to owe her at all? I have no designs on leveraging her what so ever. I never have and that's not what I want. I want the boundary.....not her stuff but I do not want her and I here alone together, without someone else here as a witness. I do not want any "made up accusations" in a way that will come back and bite me......her word...against mine. Not my first time at the Rodeo there......even if , this is not what she will do......it's not unheard of and I don't want to play that game with her. Anything that is not mine, or any promise I have made, I fully intend to keep it and follow through regardless. This is the path I've already been on.....no need to stray from that.....but no need to play along with her at this point, just to "keep her happy". Her "happiness" was never in my power to create nor take from her anyway.
What is interesting as I just thought of this going way way back......I use to think or just plain intuit....."you know, you shouldn't have to fight people to have boundaries for yourself...I mean, I don't intrude on yours...why is this so difficult?" Aside from the ADHD component that I was not aware of then.....there is something to be said for my intuition here.....I don't think it was all that far off base and now I know why that is? Normal people don't do this.....it's abnormal to have to fight...for your boudries and personal space. Not just running into snags or "times" or "moments'.....but an ongoing power struggle that never ends? The fact that it never ends....is something to pay attention to I think? That is not normal....something is defintiy wrong with that?
I've mentioned this before.....but my intuition has been ( for the most part ) pretty accurate going all the way back. Not knowing what to do about it......I can see why I had so much trouble now....more than anything else?
I think I will be alright.....since I've learned so much from just standing up and standing my ground. It's exhausting.....but it been a valuable learning expereince. A good one for the future, If I do say so myself?
If you have any other suggestions, I'm all ears you might say? lol
Boundaries part 2
Submitted by Chevron on
(Edit: back to fix a typo)
When I said that you dont have to be present for her acting out, I was referring to not having to fight her if you're not up for a fight, and not having to sit and take someone's venting or cutting remarks, if you didnt do anything wrong. Like the song says, you got to know when to hold 'em alright, maintaining your position and actively playing in the card game. But you got to know when to fold em, still in the game but not playing because its not your best moment to make a move to win. And you got to know when to walk away and know when to run, when the game isnt worth it to you, and you'll just lose more chips if you keep trying to play in that game...or when to run, when for what you're aiming to do in life, you head for the exit from the momentary situation as fast as you can.
Three out of the four of those, fold 'em, walk away, run fit different situations, but all three are choices not to participate in the game being played by the other players. Fold 'em has you still in the game with your wife but waiting for a better game moment to return to play with her.
If I remember what you wrote in the past about yourself and attachment theory, you and I grew up with one thing alike, and maybe two. I always had the tremendous blessing of friends in my age group outside the house. What was happening in intimate space, in the home of my upbringing, was very different from what was going on with my little friends, and then my friends at school, and so on up through work. I loved, shared and played and they loved, shard with me and played with me. But in intimate space, what was done to me and around me, led me to agonize over being abandoned, because in fact I was abandoned and treated and told that I never should have been born. So not in friendships, but when I started to date, in serious dating relations, I'd replay that old intimate nightmare and either pick rejecters, or turn myself inside out for fear of being rejected. Sound familiar? I would do things to my own dignity, to keep from being "thrown away" There was never a time that I kept my wellbeing and what my best high road game was in mind, and made the decisions, is this a hold 'em situation in which I'll continue in play? A fold 'em situation, in which I remain in this relation, but dont participate in what is not good for me to participate in, and wait for situations in which I can participate actively? Is it time to walk away? Is it time to run? I didnt make those distinctions and decisions. I just clung to the relation and tolerated what was being done to me, because my old pardon my French of my childhood had convinced me that I wasnt worth French, and that my role in life was to have things done to me, and abandonment was the horror of horrors,
If what I'm writing is ringing any bells, now's a very good time for you to decide what you want and dont want out of your separation, and what you intend to do and not do during it, and seek to carry those things out, Take care of your boundaries not according to what she does with them, but according to what you want to do, there at the center of your dojo mat. And that's no matter whether you wanted the separation or not, As far as I can tell, people do marital separations in all kinds of ways, there's no conventional way to do one. Set your part of it up like you would set up a workshop, in a way that fosters your best, high road with her, and taking care of yourself work.
I like your thinking about using intermediate spaces that are not your place, and now that she has chosen and occupied her space, not her space.
Hope any of that helps. With that lability you can have, laying down for yourself during a quieter time where you are in the card game at the moment, regardless of where she seems to be playing in it, what deciding for your best way of being you will and wont do, and how you're going to intend to do it will help you remember it and have your own back, so to speak, if another conflict crops up.
Like we all advise each other, in the meantime do some quality good things for yourself... : ) and thank yourself or tell yourself good for you J. I always need to work on that one, myself...
Oh Yeah....Ringing Bells for Sure
Submitted by kellyj on
I had post started and I lost it but that's fine really.....I was leading up to something and I think I can just start with this since I found the perfect way to show and tell this. What I had originally said that yes, much of what you said sounds familiar to me, but I was going on further in saying that there was always something else involved. Something, so completely out of my own internal experience and outside of my thinking, that I simply would or have never thought it.....but I have expereinced it many times ut did not know what it was? As I was leadning up to it here....I am not assuming anything from what you said about your experience as far as trying to place these people into any catagory as you described....but I have been haunted ( literally ) by something that instills in me ( for lack of any other term ) ...rage and almost instant anger but only in part from my own experience that "yes"...does flavor it? But I felt this way long before I had ever known anything about it or even what you call it, until my T put the bug in my ear. Since I kept coming back to this "thing" and wouldn't leave it alone.....he finally through out "Antisocial" as a guess...for my father, which I imediately looked up but it still didn't register? All it did was make me go....."Oh no...I hope I'm not like that!!!! yikes"....which now I understand why I'm not. No matter what I am or what catagory you could put me in.....I am sure I'm not in this one...and this excerpt I took from an article is the perfect way to show why that is?
This was an article in Psychology Today entitled....."Confessions of a Sociopath" and here's the part that really reqlly hit home with me:
I like to imagine that I have "ruined people" or seduced someone to the point of being irreparably mine. I dated Cass for a while, but I ultimately lost interest. He, though, did not lose interest. So I tried to find other uses for him. One night he and I went to a party where we met Lucy. She was striking, particularly in her similarity to me, which made me want to ruin her. I did the calculations—Lucy is smitten with Cass, Cass is smitten with me, I had unexpected power over Lucy. At my direction, Cass began pursuing Lucy. I found out everything I could about Lucy from her well-meaning friends: Lucy and I were born hours apart on the same day; we had the same predilections, the same pet peeves, and the same style of distracted, quasi-formal communication. In my mind she was my alter ego.
For as long as Lucy dated Cass, I kept him as my sidepiece: I would induce him to make and then break dates with her in favor of being with me. He knew I was using him to mess with her. When he started to feel pangs of conscience, I broke it off with him. I waited until he focused all his attention on Lucy, waited until she got her hopes up, then I called him again. I told him we were meant for each other and I was just testing him.
Lucy made things worse for herself—she had no sense of keeping personal things private, particularly from people like me who could use the information against her. Meanwhile, her friends sometimes thought I was her. Things could not have gone more perfectly.
The thing that kept it interesting was my genuine fondness for Lucy. I almost wanted to be a true friend. Just thinking about this makes me salivate. But when she became a dessert too rich, I began to avoid her. I made Cass break it off with her for good.
What did I actually do to Lucy? Nothing. She grabbed a boy and kissed him. She liked this boy. She saw him a couple of times a week, sometimes with his creepy friend—me. After a while, it didn't work out. The end. I didn't ruin anything about her. She's married now and has a good job. The worst thing I did was propagate a romance that she believed was sincere, one that I staged (as best as I could) to break her heart. I know my heart is blacker and colder than most people's; maybe that's why it's tempting to break theirs.
I can explain in my own words.....what this ( asshole ) is saying and I really mean that since.....that is exactly how I feel about this person and I have never met them. I don't need to meet them, I know enough from reading this, to know exactly what that is. I even got more worked up when I read the rest of this "confession" from this self proclaimed "Sociopath" and I'm not saying that I don't have traits of qualities that mimic this in some ways....but there is ONE thing I don't got, but I'll just complete the story in what she said.
What Is Evil, Really?
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a sociopath's dream. Mormons believe that everyone has the potential to be godlike—I believe this includes me. Every being is capable of salvation; my actions are what matters, not my ruthless thoughts, not my nefarious motivations. Everyone is a sinner, and I never felt that I was outside this norm.
When I attended Brigham Young—where students were even more trusting than the average Mormon—there were myriad opportunities for scamming. I stole from the lost and found, saying I lost a book, but then I would take the "found" book to the bookstore and sell it. Or, I'd take an unlocked bike that sat in the same place for days. Finders, keepers.
But I am functionally a good person—I bought a house for my closest friend, I gave my brother $10,000, and I am considered a helpful professor. I love my family and friends. Yet I am not motivated or constrained by the same things that most good people are.
I don't mean to give the impression that you shouldn't worry about sociopaths. Just because I'm high-functioning and nonviolent doesn't mean there aren't a lot of stupid, uninhibited, or dangerous sociopaths out there. I myself try to escape people like that; after all, it's not like all sociopaths give each other hall passes to avoid harassment.
Despite having imagined it many times, I've never slit anyone's throat. I wonder, though, had I been raised in a more abusive home, whether I would have blood on my hands. People who commit heinous crimes—sociopath or empath—are not more damaged than everyone else, but they seem to have less to lose. It's easy to imagine a 16-year-old version of myself being handcuffed in an orange jumpsuit. If I had no one to love or nothing to achieve, perhaps. It's hard to say.empath—are not more damaged than everyone else, but they seem to have less to lose. It's easy to imagine a 16-year-old version of myself being handcuffed in an orange jumpsuit. If I had no one to love or nothing to achieve, perhaps. It's hard to say.
I think, everyone has a line or a boundary...that there's just no crossing over. This is not as much a moral judgment but a personal one at best. You could apply "morality to it" but as this Law Professor and Morman Church goer is quite openly admitting she's is a Sociopath as she's explains, she says she's a good person and she doesn't have "blood on her hands" as she is not, as she says....evil. Okay, I'll buy that, and I'll go along with everything she says?
But I'll put this in my own words....from the receiving end of his confession? From the victim of someone like this and being the one she used or toyed with just for fun and amusement and what I think about it how I feel about what she said?
Picture...a Cat, who's just caught a mouse....and the Cat is toying with it, torturing it and playing with it for fun. Cats as I have come to understand...are the only "predators" that kill for fun? Just for sport, so they can play with the mouse and kill it slowly, by allowing it to get just far enough away where you think the mouse is free...then it will reach out and claw it right back and bat it around some and sink it's claws into and maybe bite it for a while. Then while it's still alive, it will pick it up and carrying it around in it's teeth...and then set it down again 1/2 alive. And it the mouse gets a last burst of life to save itself, it will try and get away again....but the Cat will just watch it struggle and squirm until it becomes bored with it and then finally claw it and give it one last "bite" just to finish it off after it's tortured it enough that it's no longer fun to play with anymore. That is a Cat. It's what Cats do...and yes, they do it for fun and for sport....because they enjoy killing for fun. Like it or not....it is what Cats do.
When I see that....sense that.....or worse..someone like this, very cavalierly ( as this woman was saying ) seems rather proud of themselves and says there is "nothing wrong with being this way, and it's not evil" I simply beg to differ....and the rage I feel inside and the hatred toward someone who actually "gets off" on it....as she said.
If I met this woman on the street...and I knew this is who she was.....I would be hard pressed to not show my bias towards her.....and I don't care "how good a woman" she thinks he is...."I like the idea of ruining people" is unmistakable, but only in that flash of the moment since deep down, it really makes me angry. I don't give a flying Fuck....if she thinks she is just thinking this or this is amusing to her and just "Likes the idea of it".....the simply fact that he "likes it"..."likes the idea of it and enjoys this thought of "ruining other people" for fun? Or for sport? That doesn't sound like fun to me? I don't like this idea at all? It's not even in my thinking, that's the point? It is outside of my thoughts because I would not enjoy it what so ever in fact, I'm horrified that someone would actually like doing this and think it's fun? Like WTF??? And.....WTF is wrong with someone like this more to the point? That's what I think about...."imagining ruining people". Like WTF???
I've met my share of guy s ( and women ) like this, and my father was one of them. I don't care what she says ( or they say ) about themselves......"I don't like them"....and "I NEVER will". I have a bias....that is my own, and I simply do not want to be associated, or around anyone like this? And I kind of will....go out of my way at times.....to stand up and tell them so? If I have to , or I'm confronted with someone like this, I simply cannot resolve this in my mind as anything she said as being Okay...or that I would be Okay with? That her entire mind set and thinking is just way off base in a very "SICK AND TWISTED" way. I am prejudice against people like this, I fully admit it....even if they are "good people" or "nice guys or women".....and don't really go around hurting anyone. I simply find a human Cat......completely offensive and repulsive and I can't help that. It is the one and only thing that is a deal breaker for me.......in ALL my relationships period. I do not like them Sam I am.....I do not like Sociopaths. Period. end of stroy.
I wonder how she would feel....if I told her that "I like the idea of raping you". I won't do it, but if I could, and I could rape you and not get caught, I'd do it because I would really enjoy that. Not date rape but the real thing. You know, where I stalk you and then attack you out of no where and forcibly rape you against your will take that kind of power and control over her where she has no say or control in the matter while I am violated every boundary that she has in every way imaginable. In fact, I want to right now but of course I won't....is anyone sitting in that chair next to you? " LOL I wonder what she would say about that and how she would feel with me saying that and then sitting down right next to her and rubbing my leg on her leg in close quarters?? mmmm??? LOL
So , when you mentioned how you were told....."I wish you were never born"....and with me, it was more unspoken but the impression I got was simply....."I don't like you"
Well.........."I don't like them either ". Piss on em'.....the feelings are mutual. I won't even give them the time of day, even if they stopped and asked me?" I don't have to like Sociopaths......that is my prerogative? Know what I mean? That's the deal breaker and that where I fold em and end the game. Game over....and I walk away from the table and never return...it's a simple as that.
And the last thing I would ever choose to do willingly....would to be in a close personal relationship with one.....no matter how nice or good they are? It's not required and I don't have to because that is just how I feel about it and for no other reason. As long as they stay on their side of the street....then every thing is hunky dory with me, I simply want nothing to do with them...that's my choice.
Confessions of a Sociopath....a Final Thought
Submitted by kellyj on
I forgot to include the opening line from that article which I will include...for no other reason ( and not to introduce Sociopathy into this now at this point ) but it had to do with what I was saying about "getting your thinking right". In the very essence of everything...this is where it starts and ends right here. Where the rubber meets the road as far as I'm concerned. This is not about good or evil ...it's about what you are "likely to do when pressed"....when the shit hits the fan and everything goes bad or sour and completely negative. This opening line in the article was what brought me back to this:
"I have never killed anyone, but I have certainly wanted to. I may have a disorder, but I am not crazy. In a world filled with gloomy, mediocre nothings populating a go-nowhere rat race, people are attracted to my exceptionalism like moths to a flame. This is my story."
This is where the rubber meets the road and you see who has got it and who doesn't? I mean, when the Titanic is going down and you're on board with every one else and all is lost....what do you do? That story of D's mother...pulling the gun out because her husband ( as her story goes which I'm not buying 100% ). Even D was foggy on what she said so I don't think it was a straight story since nothing her mother said was a straight story and she was a pathological liar and yes....I think she was a Sociopath.
So now, when her husband "did something wrong"...or something she didn't like or went against her will in some way.......he needed punishing, and she ordered him out of the house. What I remember from the story was the two were fighting about something he did, but he wasn't denying it? He wasn't trying to deny and all he was doing was defending himself or trying to even if it was a bunch of BS. But the fact was.....he lived there and that was his home....and if he left, he would be out in the street with no where to go? Without "shelter"....the basic human element for survival. And D's mother, was demanding he leave. That's what the gun was all about......demanding he leave...not about the argument or even what he did? That was the "punishment"...she decided for him. "I am the decider"....."you leave now". And if you don't leave.....I'll kill you since I'm holding a loaded gun in my hand and ....."bang".....I mean business"
And then the bullet hits the lady sleeping down stairs and the cops come an arrest her mother not the father since "cheating" is not a crime.....but shooting people with a deadly weapon is?
And where does that thinking come from in the first place? "I've never killed anyone, but I've certainly wanted to". Wanting to? Is that "metaphorically or figuratively speaking....or is that "literally"?
Well, when the shit hit the fan and all was lost and the ship was sinking......D's mom......literally got a loaded gun......and literally waved it around the room.....and literally pulled the trigger...and literally shot an innocent woman who was sleeping in her bed in the apartment below her. Literally...not figuratively or metaphorically.
That changes the meaning of "I've never killed anyone, but I've certainty wanted to". The problem with that entire scenario with D's mother was........only one person had a gun.....the offending party was not denying there guilt...and the only person making any demands or who was ordering anyone around and taking control of the situation.....was her mother. There was no "threat" going on with the mother.....the gun was NOT for self protection....the gun was to force or coherce her husband out the door and to leave his home and he refused. Who was the aggressor and the predator in this case and who was in the wrong...and had the wrong thinking? That's the scary part.....when push comes to shove.....that "thinking" is the first thing to show itself and look what happened? That's the problem with this causal idea of......"you know, I just think about it and I like the thought of it"
That thought is there.....and thoughts do turn into actions....when push comes to shove. Like I said.....these things manifest themselves in big and small ways and it's not Okay. Wrong thinking leads to wrong results. I know this because I've had to change most of the "wrong thoughts" to "right" myself because of this exact very same thing. In the moment, when that impulse comes.....you've got to choose...or not but that is a choice. Wrong thinking...is likely to get you into trouble as I have come to find myself.
Submitted by c ur self on
I'm reading the book "In Sheeps clothing" by Dr. George Simon Jr. Ph.D... (understanding and dealing w/ manipulative people) smd1409 recommenced...It's just 172 pages...It's quiet interesting...I think you might appreciate it....
Thank You........ C
Submitted by kellyj on
I am looking past my current situation towards the future and taking in anything I can learn here. More than anything I've learned here, is..... the "normalizing" that, which is "not normal" as a strategy to the effect that at the core of this dilemma, which I have found I have much to learn from. If you do not have a solid base, to tell you or give you signs that what you are seeing and experiencing is "not normal"....you will walk right on by these "signs" or not understand what they are saying? "Feelings" and "emotions" are merely "signs" or "sign posts" along the way to tell you which way to go? It's what your intuition is for....to "tell you what to do".
Manipulative people, will make you believe anything, as long as it fits into their agenda. It may be normal and it may be a reasonable thing, but when it becomes unreasonable or "not normal"....then when everything is "not normal"..you will have a difficult time knowing the difference and knowing what those "sign posts" are telling you? It is the "normalizing what is not normal"....that creates this problem to begin with. Without any other means to know the difference, it leaves you vulnerable to these people in the future, unless you can see it "in the moment". If you can't see it in the moment, it makes it hard to know which way to go? I think without intention ( again ) the unseen or unspoken agenda no matter what is being said by someone like this.....deep down, they are moving you where they want you to go.....and making it impossible for you to see it ahead of time, before it's too late?
Learning to become more compassionate for the reason a person ends up this way is all good and fine, but that really doesn't "fix this particular issue" for you, either now or in the future? I mean, everyone needs to have a say or some control of their own life.....and a person who employs this strategy either unconcuiously or otherwise....is making it impossible for you to do this effectly.
If anything, that is what I've learned from all of this and everything I know to date.
I appreciate anything that will help me do this for the future, no matter who I'm with or where I go. Thanks for that, I do appreciate it truly.
Good thoughts in your post, J
Submitted by Chevron on
...unless it fits in their agenda is right
I'm still learning to trust my intuition. I think its so valuable. It cant explain anything, but it can guide you toward noticing things. What was it that Martha Graham, the great choreographer said, "The body never lies"
The hard thing is separating out intuition from conditioned reaction, but we've all got intuition in there. Lot of wisdom in your last post.
Thanks ...Chevron Hey, A Thought For Anyone Here
Submitted by kellyj on
If you really want to get a first rate education about everything we are talking about right now? Turn of the news, and watch Donald Trump, Kellyane Conway, (the Trump Family ) and his entire cabinet staff. Mostly....I think Donnie and Kellyanne....take the cake on that one. whew!! You want to see this get a first rate education on gaslighting, impulse control and talking out both side of their mouth? Just listening to Kellyane Conway for 5 minutes....gives me the Willies!!! wooooooooooo LOL Those two are "Pro's!!!" at confabulation and creative verbal diarrhea?? Actually Donald isn't so much on the verbal diarhea......just amazingly "Grandiose" and Loves to here himself speak. When asked to day about the job of the "Intelligence Community" and the job of the previous administration.....his comment was something like "I love Intelligence....and as far as ( that other guy )....he had good things to say about me, so I think he's not so bad." LOL Or something like that? LOL
When you see it......you can't NOT see it? You can't un-ring the bell, that's for sure ;)
Wolf Book, Enlightening
Submitted by kellyj on
I just finished the e-book wolf in Sheeps Clothing and it was completely illuminating to me ,both.......illuminating and validating since I recognized much of it already and where I've already employed the good things ( or in parts on my own ). But really, more than anything else was defining the concepts of , and specifically "aggression". Taking what I know, and laying it over that lens, these things line up perfectly and I can see exactly why I'm different in some ways or at least, a conflicting mix? I know I said this a long time ago and a I remember when I said it since I was having to choose my words carefully so it would come across accurately. I can simply say it again now and use the word aggression or covert aggression...or for that matter "passive aggression"......and put this all into perspective...clearly and easily based on the book.
I was born, with an inherent passive personality component or "not having a desire to fight". I fought fighting and I was in a constant fight with fight and having to fight. Why? Because I'm passive, like Duh?? LOL But what came through the book as that these are just raw predispositions to lean one way or the other.....between these two types of people. But this also goes back home now and I can easily add to that. My mom , sisters and I were passive too. Mom..eh.....she was pretty passive aggressive but she had no power or very little at best. Covert aggressive too if she really got out of hand but that was not the majority of the time or who she was most of the time. It's why it was safe when my father wasn't around....it was a unanymous unspoken decision or rule. For the most part. My sisters fought some, but not all that much. I didn't fight with anyone, that was the problem!! And that was particular annoying for my father who was the only true aggressive one in the house until I learned those skills myself. I wasn't motivated to it.....I was motivated away from it, so if you can't beat em join em. And I got really good at it.......but I'm still passive none the less. This is now what I understand is a call out or invitation ....to aggressive trypes that is. On one hand it's asking for it, but you are asking for it since you have to. It comes with everything else so if you want to get all the channels on reality out there, you got to pay to play? And learning how to play are all good skills especially when it really matters like "asserting yourself"..........yeah, I learned that one! LOL But that was on the healthy side of defending yourself and that's the entire point, If your passive....and you have to defend yourself.....the better skills, cooler head, more objectivity......blah, blah, blah......the better technique, the faster you gol. I learned that one in swimming, big time. So, I'm still passive and there you go. For defense or defensive skills, it gives you confidence. If you can learn to defend youself you also get to assert yourself. And even if they come at you ( the challenge ) you can deal with that too. Which means your calling the out and being aggressive at the same time, but your not invested emotionally or are emotionally driven........why yes, this is what "channeled aggressive people in sports do for real....since the other "aggressive" in the personality many times are hot heads and let the game get inside their head and you don't perform well that way. It's all these ironic twists like "the non-neurotic channeled aggressive is good.....you want that and that an excellent thing. But if you use it and even appropriately it trigger these aggressive types. It's a double blind for sure. In every way shape or form it comes in, I can trace my motivation and behavior as passive most if not all the time as the preferred path or method. Even thought I Love competition on an even playing field and that's a blast. Just for sport, and no one gets hurt. ( except your pride.......oooop??? ) If pride is a problem, then you need to get rid of that if you are going to perform aggressively and effectively both at the same time. You almost really do need a mixed martial arts belt of some kind to get all the moves you need!! LOL Mentally and physically.....that's the point.
And that puts me a really disadvantage because I'm that wierd mix......learned aggression ( as a defense when attacked....not the other way around ) / passive. That more "on demand aggression / aggressive.....perfectly stated. But that's what was expected of me to fit in....so I just learned to do it. But my internal pull and at the core is that inherent "passive componrent.......which is attached to the artist and all that other good stuff that I got a little extra of? But the motivation, the thinking, the inherent tendencies and my "desire" or what "I want' or what "I like"......is to be passive as I experienced since it much safer and more comfortable for all concerned without a doubt. I mean you can't argue that so that's starting from that place and moving towards aggression but that's still you base line at that end of the spectrum.
Well that pretty much explains everything!! LOL Not quite, but a whole lot of it. The problem about changing your "views"....is that it changes a lot of other things and it all coms in a package. No free lunch I'm afraid.....that stopped doing that during prohibition.......... no shoes, no shirt, no booze, no free lunch. Now get the Hell out a here!! LOL Lousy bum ;)
PS Actually, my intuition use to tell me all the time I was a target and it was not wrong there either. But that could definitely lead one to become Paranoid? ( a little? lol ) Until you find out tha the reason your Paranoid is their really are people after you!!!LOL So I guess that's not Paranoid then? Knock that one off the list. Ha!
I'm reading the long way:(..lol....It's therapy:)
Submitted by c ur self on
I like the simplicity of how he states things and draws the parallel line from neurotic's to character disordered.....We tend to think on these things as BAD instead of realities and tendency's of the flesh....I think if we do as you did, go into this and find ourselves, (what I'm trying to do also) our own fleshly weakness and tendencies we can learn, and we can have light shed into maybe some dark area's to....It's also obvious we will get a better understanding about our spouse's, close family and friends tendency' also.....Hopefully we want run into to many of the more sadistic of the disordered (no conscience at all)...But this guy attempts to give us tools to recognize those who would secretly deceive us, and use us for their own selfish gain, etc....Glad you liked listening to it....I too and enjoying the book....
I try to discipline myself schedule wise, even though I am retired from working for the man...There is still much that needs done in the house and yards, and I try to keep faithful to staying fit....So I only allow myself limited time on-line and reading....Reading is something it can be hard for me to start, but, I love it once I get into it....I think it's kind of how my late wife and present wife view love making....LOL.....
Have a good one friend....
Thank you J, C. and smd for the recommendation of the Wolf book
Submitted by Chevron on
I took a look at the Wolf book.
The book covering the topic that I used most about the issue was Pulling Your Own Strings (1974), by Wayne Dyer. That Dyer publication date tells you how far back I started doing this kind of of work...
J, C and smd, about manipulation, passive aggression, and aggression. Speaking as someone who has had to work long and hard on these matters, I had to find roots of any of those things: manipulation, passive aggression and agression, in myself before I became more than occasionally better at dealing with it aimed at me.
Three's a charm.....
Submitted by c ur self on
Yes Chevy....Agreement.....When we are the starting place where I work begins, we can see more clearly in our dealings w/ others....
Why we need help
Submitted by Chevron on
Speaking to you as a believer, C: the power of other people over our mind and body, and our powers over our own mind and body are so great that something beyond us each must help us, if our mind and spirit are to heal and grow. We're fools if we think that we can see ourselves on our own, and see the world around us. I'm speaking to you as a fellow believer, C. People who dont believe with their lives in the way of Christ pursue things along other paths. I'm speaking to you about the path you and I share.
C, we cant even see ourselves without God's help, in the light of Christ. We go astray. We stop at the convenient. We lack. We find our dark side to be a terrifying wood, and hesitate to go in to find out what's in the wood. We cant make sense of what we newly see in ourselves, because we've never seen it in ourselves before. We need light, from beyond us, to see. And then later, that new identity inside of us that had been installed in us by others a long time ago, or that we installed in us at one time, begins to fade and break up, and we find ourselves in more journeynof recognition doing our best with God's help to find more of us, and over and over again, and we need God and the light of Christ to know the newly seen from the old, which we thought was us, but lo! It was a stopping place, a mask that in time started to be recognizable to us as a mask, not our real face. On and on down in.
For each new discovery of anything of our more real, but still only our best present mask, not our true face, seeing ourselves as other than we thought we were is never enough. Seeing is the beginning of our healing, not the end of it. Once with God's help we see more of the truth of who we are, ah, then, the time begins that we really need God and need every scrap of our own powers, to learn to act against all of our own terrible and other people's terrible powers to activate whatnwe newly see that is more real in us than what we deluded ourselves that we were, and now understand that we were other. We cannot do this alone. I am speaking to you as a fellow believer, C. Let non believers follow their own best path. You and I cannot recline and coast on the powers of God to show us, nor can we, if we want to grow up and follow Christ, think that seeing is conversion. Conversion takes every scrap of power that we have to change, and we need the true not false humility, of asking God for help. Because the journey of change after seeing is long and we cant walk it alone. Seeing is not changing. Seeing is only seeing.
You're not the only Christian on this board on this walk. You speak about it most clearly. It's not just seeing ourself better that helps us in relation with others, its also having the fortitude, with God's help, to seek to be better, to do combat with our old illusions, to learn new ways and replace old ways. Seeing is the beginning of our present phase, not the end of it. In this world, we labor by the sweat of our brow and call out for our Maker instead of fooling ourselves that we are in charge of what's beyond our powers. All of this you know. This is thanks to you for speaking so clearly.
Yes Sister....So wisely spoken....
Submitted by c ur self on
Coming to the end of myself; and SEEING the path, is like you say; just the beginning....I prove everyday as I slip off into my mind, w/o this trust and belief in the Father, to live in me, by his Spirit, and to empower me beyond any human capability....I cannot stay on the path....John 14:23....Proverbs 28:26...
Thank you (sister) Chevy! You are much appreciated!
I Think You Two Are on To Something Here
Submitted by kellyj on
About, new beginnings when you think you just reached the end of the one you were on? Like you made it or thought you would when you reached the goal in your sight. I've mentioned this before and in Mt Climbing, their called "False Summits" because that's exactly what they are. From down below them looking up, what you're seeing is a spur or outgrowth of the Mt that just blocking your view of the top from down below. What's worse, they throw your perspective off since you can see the very top above, but think you've reached the last summit to go before you reach the top. Nothing is nothing more heart wrenching, when you get to the top of one of these and actually see just how much farther you have left. LOL In reality, lol That's a heart breaker right there let me tell you.. All of that reminded me vert much of the same thing and I know how easy it is to be deceived by what you "see" even when you can see it right in front of you?
I just wanted to mention that in passing and to really come back here and just add one more simple sentence to explain "that thing". This is that "thing" ,that my radar is really tuned to pick up and read. This is that "uneasy" feeling I get with some people not others. Or I can sense it when its there even when that person is not behaving in that manner at all. It is just an overall sense you get but it different in that it "stays"........or, it's always "on"........it's either "All ON".....or not at all. This is a curious thing that is not so curious actually. It's for lack of a better word "seething hatred"........but this is a "feeling again". You'd have to be there to feel it.......it's not something you could get from just hearing someone vent or spew or speaking in every day language. ( in anger for any reason ). This is that "underlying current" that I use to call it ( not sure if I have used that one here or have? ) but the "underlying current of anger"......that always seems to be there.
It's like Okay.....there it is. That sentence I just highlighted was something I've said before ( not here ) many times in reference to this "thing". And I can pick this up almost immediately, because it's very specific and curious. because, you'd swear, they are angry at something?? But nothing's there or nothings going on that you can see or tell, that would indicate anything you did....or anything else going on or you can see? But you could swear, if you didn't know better, that they're pissed off at something? But, they just acting normally but when you finally stop them and go " are you Okay? I mean, are you alright? " And they snap at you or they get all defensive and irritated, like you just caught them red handed doing something? I picked up on that one with my father, BIG TIME!! Which is why my radar got so good at picking this particular quality up? I could sense that well and it always made me very uncomfortable? But it's not common, either not that uncommon to make you think much of of anything? Other than they're just grouchy, surly, or have a "mean" disposition and call it that? It's kinda nasty I have to admit. It is where my own anger comes from as well. When I get that feeling and then see it happening it really pisses me off .....to be it nicely sometimes. LOL
But this explains the "not such a great feeling"....and simply sensing anger so well in other people. It definitely has an effect on me and I've got to get away from it after too long. Other than that, this one quote sums this up perfectly...since this is what my "sense" is "sensing". No question...;.it is what I feel coming from people at times and it is "disturbing" for me. Yep, cause that's what it feels like.
"Between flattery and admiration there often flows a river of contempt." - Minna Antrim quotes
Submitted by Chevron on
sensing anger so well in other people. It definitely has an effect on me and I've got to get away from it after too long.
I'm like you on the picking up on some one else's anger J.
You dont need to be present to anyone who is using you as a dumping ground for anger. I really believe that.
Learning About "Feelings"....an Assumptions
Submitted by kellyj on
Out of all of this and coming here for much of what I've learned. This really is at the heart of the matter, literally when it comes to feelings, sensing or perceiving everything. More recently on Facebook....a new category popped up in connection with ADHD ( at least in my vocabulary aside the from musical act or group ) called "Indigo"...the supposed aura or color to indicate some kind of special gift or talent in having extra abilities as a prodegy of types. Just born with it apparently and other related things.
Okay, so I read through this new age kind of definition and I go......sure, what ever, but not I fit into a so called new group because that fit me to a T exactly too. But then theirs Highly Sensitive People ( HSP's ) and it basically says the same things in a different way with a few subtle changes in the definition and how they symptoms are presented which is a little more dry in the flavor of these people but it's just the same thing in a different package. They are these poeple except the "Indigo's" perhaps a little more or more extreme version of the same thing? I'm thinking so but also adding in "outside forces" and nurture if you will. Regardless.....I fit that one too so I could be that? Most like....the same thing just a different version. And then theirs the "Hypersensitive" as they call it that comes with ADHD. That right there us what I've got in spades. At time, it felt like ( not to be crude but...) I had an ich in my groin, I had to sneeze, to cough, needed to burp and fart all at the same time and if I didn't find something to "scratch all those itches at once on the inside from the inside out, but you can't get to ) you will about to lose your mind and jump straight out of your skin if you didn't find some relief from that feeling. That's a feeling right there let me tell you!! LOL I know that one well because it was everyday all the time as a kid growing up. But that's all you know but it is the feeling that drives you straight to my symptoms of ADHD back then and to a much lesser degree, even now. At's still there.....I know it better than any feeling I know? But compared to back then,,,,,back then that feeling was way out of control. But the thing that I remember was, that feeling also felt good too. When reigned in, there was no anger or negative emotions involved or connnected to the "hyper / knetic energy" and just bouncing off the walls and always ready to go at all times. I was very enthusiastic, unbridled for sure. LOL But for the most part....I was in a positive frane of reference and had a postive outlook dspite any else bad that was happening. In not such a healthy way....but that was just in a extreme response but certainly better than going the other way instead. I got to the point where I didn't care and it was more like "you can't hurt me....do you best".....but that was really just shielding myself from and becoming more immune and indifferent without having it negatively affect me or.....change much at all.....going completely negative all the time. I had a couple of years of that in High School based on the drama that was going on with my mothers remarkable change in her ability to become assertive and yes......"very negative", but, you know........I get why that was now. My mom had had just about enough, and that ws it. I think she felt ( in context to everything I knew ) that she really had missed a lot of other opportunities feeling powerlless and afraid.....and then as "it appeared"......she finally grew some big cahonnies and put her foot down, and then some. She had too many years of being subordinted and she finally got the courage in what she was seeing and how she was seeing it, was wrong and it went against what she beleived and wasn't going to be bulled one more time. She had a lot of anger built up in there for a long long time....and the damn burst and she just let it all out and I mean literally.....she was a "tour de force" to be reckoned with.....whew!! Anytime you heard as much of anything resembling a swear word....let alone any other main stream words or terms for regular common day language like : "booger"...or "fart".....or 1/2 dozen more completely innocuous terms or even correct science definitions.....she had all these "lady like" old terms or words she would use out of "humility" in service of the what was "proper" at the time. I keep thinking about "it's a Wonderful Life" and the scene with "Mary"....talking on the phone with "George" and her mother is running around having a cow since the "rich guy" that the mother likes is trying to contact her too? Things were done "properly".....and "Court'in" had certain rules and "ladies" had particular mannerism.....and lot of "isms" and "Do's and "Don'ts".....and "getting angry", being "hostile" or ....'speaking out against" anything remoted connected to the "Man"....would be like "summary execution"......"you're fired".........last date with him or any man and your resputation as as "troubled", or "difficult".....would land on you head. My mom use to tell me collectively these stories as if she was trying to "teach me" these things? And I use to go, "yeah right mom,10- 4 on that one......" and completely ignore her. LOL But it was because it was rediculous and I would have looked like a fool or idiot if I took her advise. It was antiquaited even back then and was probably word for word in what her mother told "her to do".and she was just regurtiating the same thing back to me, with little to no results other than for me to stop listening which you could since she would follow you around and annoy you constaintly with these little lessons but.......I got what she was trying to say......or "the message".....I just didn't follow her adise since that would have been beyond stupid cuase some of it simply was. Like from a competely different time that was gone probably by the time my mom was born. She was just too isolated to know the difference but she wasn't stupid.......beyond that in some ways. But the bottom line was, she was a nice person who was doing her absolute best to be a good positive dencent person and her intnetions were almost always honorable. Actually the only time she lost that qualitity was when she had Alheizmer's and she was thinking straight any more. That's actually what I notice first since I started seeing anger where I did not see it before. And other issues of character started changing but of course, we figure that out not to long after.
But going back to before.....when my mom had had emogh, the thing is, we had talks about these things previous but I was the one asking and wanting to know things and she told me things that she had never told anyone else.....but not as a means to triangulate or had anything to do with my father....but about herself, and things that didn't make sense...and the fact that as I said before, she always seemed to know exactly what I needed when it really counted....she was much more aware at times that she really let on except in other ways, she was so naive and trusting that even I had to sit her down and explain things to her yet what I'm getting at here.....is she had a "gift too" but she had always kept it a secret or down played in like going back to "George and Mary" here. I mean, what kind of "nice young lady"....who can't even say "booger"......is going to sit down across the man who is dating her and tell them she's a prodigy in "math and calcuations" like that? LOL That one is not in the "Debutante's Field Guide Manual" they wer handing out back then? LOL It just wasn't happening but that's the impression I got. And that thing about "impressions" too, and reading up on "mirror nuerons" and the like. Yep.....it's exactly what it is........things leave their "impression" or "negatively releif" on the puddy up strairs.....and the brain just scans the "impression mold" and out pops the image and you get the picture in your mind. I get it ie: U get the picture, I understand, I can see you point, I can feel what you feel,.....all go along with that ability. And you actually do really "feel" those "feelins" as if they care coming straight into you from them....except it's not, it's coming from inside you. It is "your're impression".......they are real and not an impression at all.......yet if you "behave like or act like one"......then you will fit the mold or "impression" another might have of you? It that is what you were trying to do........just "act like, an "impressionist actor"....or an mime or a mimic....and just pretended to "act this way"? That is what I use to sit down with my mom and have a heart to heart with her since as I said.....I would have been a complete retard if had "acted" the way my mom was suggesting. In fact ...."to like" someone else as she was suggesting was right out that "Debutante Field Guide" and I had to set her straight....that this just doesn't work for guys. LOL I swear to God....I used my sisters left over Barbie Dolls and the Barbie Ken thing and explained the only time I came near that ( or anything esle along those lines ) was one time as I reminded her of how I broke Kens car, by trying to sit on it and ride it around the room. Like "Mom, you need some undating dude, you are so behind the times!! "LOL But thing is, she would stop nad actually listen to me and that is when she started seeing something familiar with herself I think? But she still couldn;t spit it out, but I got what she was saying but didn't realize we were both thinking and talking about the same thing because ehe could sense....what I could sense...and that was she could sense me sensing her and me sensing her in the same sense together and we both new what we were talking about kind of, but I didn't see myself at all like my mother.....until lateer when I realized it wasn't gender or a male female thing. It was this same "gift" in a way.....where she was extrmely inutivie and was actually a lot more than she was saying in fear people wouldn't bleive her or make fun of her which I'm sure....if she tried to tell her mom of anything like this, she would have gotten no where fast as well as being put in the closet with the Bible and asking God to remove the devil from here soul or something? LOL Who knows but I heard enough of my Grandmothers "isms"......to know my mom were just the toned down versions of the same utter non=sense and supersticious wierdness that gets passed around as fact...and it beyond rediculous.
The thing is.....unrequited Love, is a difficult thing to encounter and the first thing you feel is angry and hurt. Angry and hurt that you were decieved but really, your instantly mad at yourself for being so stupid. You are doubly angry and mad,. each time that happens due to the betrayal and the hurt and then realziing.....your entire "story"....just took a quantum leap to something different now. All at once.......when the truth has be revealed. And that in itself, can make you angry.....anger is just the defense of that part that "I should have known better......how could I be so stupid" I know my way thought this like the back of my hand now, and I'm still not angry at all the fallaciou7s arguemnents we try and pull on ourselves to protect of from our selfves and having to feel the pain of being humiliated as one of those lovingly "really hard hitting" and harnfull ones,,,,,if you have a conscious and if you can feel shame. If you can't feel shame or guilt.and you really have no feelins at all.....then you are not going to know what another person feels like....if all you can feel is anger. As it has been descrived and even in the book suggested as he said "if it olooks like a Duck, and quaks like a Duck".....if all they can really feel is anger....then anger is what you will get more often than not......it that is the "only emotion" you really feel or the one that "registers" and the rest just all flat. That and sympathy. Anger and sympathy are not what I would call a "well rounded person" or one who has any depth of emotions or compassion and empathy? I mean.....how could you, if thyat is all you have? And a part of you knows this.....and you know something is missing? You just don't know what that is, if you don't have it to begin with?
What really stood out in this whle "Indgo", "Highly Sensitive","Empaths","Blah Blah Blah"......as I read a recent article it described this to a T, Saying everything excactly like I thought and expreincec right down to how confusing and frustrating it is at times. And being afraid to say anything or people with think your crazy which they do, so you don't and that's pretty much it? LOL You just learn to keep your mouth shut.....since you get clearly, that trying to say anything doesn't work? For all the reasos there are? People get creeped out, when you predict things sometimes.....expecially when you'er right and they were sure you were wrong and they bet you......not adivesed as a strategy...at all!! LOL But for someone who is low or to "no feeling" ability.....they are shooting in the dark....at what I can see clearly. Clear as the nose on their face and I go......'Okay, suit yourself...." and I let them go but I already said something. Now when it happens.....they're pissed off at you and why? I mean, they predicted or warned you, and you did it anyway? Who's fualt is that I might ask but that's not why I not doing things or taking suggestion more often than not? I figure they know something I don't...and I need to find out what that is? So I go find out to make sure, just for my own information and to know for meself? More often than not, this is what I do and how I think.......anger is not a part of that, curiosity is? And attached to or tied to that curiousity is that other thing? That ( insert Label Here ) and it;s trying to tell you something. That is what it does, and how it does it. These unresoved or unanswered "feelings" are wanting an answer and until they get it, they will just keep asking?
And the thing that it can't see or get though "it's iniituve feeling head".......is the fact this person "has no feelings or the kind what so ever".......those very feelings are missing...so know what? If you have thos in abundance, you will think everyone does...and then you find that people are hurting your feelings eveeryone you go.....until you realize...."mmmmm.......maybe it 's me?" As long as you got that "feel" in your mind......it's pretty hard to be angry at anyone else or look there or point fingers in blame? I mean, if you are always feeling embarassment, shame , guilt as well as all the "good feelings" to.......the fact that you get more emotional, might make a lot of sense...and those feelings tell you that too? That's what I thought and felt....and then come to find......my own mom feels the same way? And she's stting there confessing this to you and you going ( ding....that sounds familiar? ) And she's tellking you, these things and saying them to you because she see's it too......but it's not what I ws seeing? She was seeing what she knew was true...and kept thaqt a secret from everyone else? It cirtainly is not from a lack of feelings what so ever...or having a full range of them at all. It comes from being overly consccientious.....but not in "looking and acting" that way.....but feeling that way which makes you feel veery inscure. The feeling is insecurity......not anger or hate,
Right now, I do have some anger to get past, but I've been down this same road before....no matter what you do or where you go....all roads lead back to you at the end of the day. You can only be really mad or angry at yourself, but then you realize, there was no way for you to know? You can't prove a negative and you won't know it until you get there sometimes? And who's fault is that? No one, that's the answer.
However, I have learned not to stop there......just because you feel this way.....doesn't mean the other person does either? My only expereince with "those who don't have feelings" or are llow on that quotient.....if anger , hatred and symptahy is all they got......then the sympathy they already have a monopoly on......so what's left that your gonna get from them? Thinking differently in the past, what my feelings told me the worng thing, because I actually have them and did not account for the pther [erspj hjavoig none and none in the fitst place. It's just all an act which is a hard pill to swallow until you swallow it and understand it for what it is? It still makes me angry and mad....but only for a little while.
What I got out of being with D.....and all the good feelings and Love that I did have....i get to keep, because I own it, and it'sm mine and no one can take that from me ever, not matter what. Better to have Loved and lost..than never have Loved at all?
Between her and I and the same self defeating pattern she brings with her......she ends up with nohting....once a again because that is what she wants even though she cannot see it all she canm see is how angry os is, for not getting what she wants...as she clearly said many times......"I want"....."I don't want". I didn't try and stop her.....and this is what she gets.....right back to square one...with no feelings other than the two....and she clinging onto sypathy as a poor consolation prize. That doesn't make me feel glad or angry.....just pity that cannot stop chasing a dream that will never come. It's the alternative dream of what she had and deosn't want...and the rest of what she wants she made up in her head? Pretty much, that's where she lives......in the made up world of dreams...and the Love she never had but to say, if you didn't have it or have the ability to recognize that that is......as she does, she keeps looking for it in other places where it doesn't exist in the fits place? It's her looss and my gain there......which only tells me any pay back or punishemnt is not necessary on my part? Having to be put into the positiion of being the bad guy and thrwoing a wall of defensive boundaries up just in fear of what my expereince tells me without a real solid base other than this feeling, makes me out to be someone I'm not.....but only from the wisdom to know better and not allow the opportunity to happen? That is, when you are confonted with a person who did not tell you the turth or reposted to you accurately who they really are? Being in second position behind these people means, they are one step ahead of you, and you gpot some catching up to do in a hurry or risk the consqences of you own inaction. It may not happen....but why leave your wallet or your reputation sitting out vulnerable when this is the person in charge or or can use that to their advantage ...to "get what they want?" The pattern is clear, and the pattern remains consistent. Based on the pattern and the consisten nature of this all thins considered.....predicting the future is really easy to do, when the other person has a pattern so ovious and so clear....that they leave a trail or path way...and it's njot hard to se which direction or which way it was heading to? That's more than just a guess or an opinion.....when they draw you a frigg'in map which comes right out of that impression. Impressions are ealiy changed.....all you have to do is get a different take on relaity and just look for the diffeence? The difference is not always good nor positive....but it's real, and it's not fake...and it doesn't change or lie.....no matter what name or label you call it? Who cares what you call it......these "things" really narrow down to only a hand full of "things" no matter what, the options are not that many and the conclusions are normally not the complicated or diffuctul once you narrowed it down, and for me, close enough is good enough for me, I don'g needc to see any more, once I get the picture.
Like they say, a picture tells a thousand words....but the words do matter....they are all clues and leave a trail....and point to what people are going.....on not. Impressions alons with a sensitivty to others but especially anger and hatred and the like or strong painful feelings and emotions.....is no walk in the park, I can tell you that. But I would rather havet that, and instead, go the other dirction and have none. That would suck harder than anything I know?
Thanks for your kind words, and reminders as much as anything :)
Personality's can have huge swings J.....
Submitted by c ur self on
I've never been comfortable around certain personality types....My Dad's best friend was a man that when I was in my 20"s, I thought was mad at the world all the time....Loud and boisterous....Frowny face type....Highly opinionated....One of those kind of people that lived life thinking his assumptions was always the way it should be for everyone.....Man I was usually looking for the door in a bit....LOL....
I remember once we were all together and I decided to make home made ice cream, so I went to the grocery store and got the stuff and my Dad and his friend were going to mix it and put in the ice cream freezer....So when it got made, I got some and it had some kind of flavor to it....I said what is in the Ice cream? And they said they put peaches in it....And when I commented that i didn't want peaches in it....They immediately make me wrong and an unfit human for not liking peaches in your ice cream....I'm like got to get away from this group......LOL....
Now I love peaches, but just not in my home made ice cream, and it's that narcissistic attitude that any body that disagreed with them was always wrong....Dad was the same way...If he eats a rare steak and you want one medium well...You were just wrong! And if he was cooking it, he would put it on your plate at least medium or med. rare...There is no live and let live or respect for difference's with some people....
Don't know How I jumped to that, but when you talked about people who seemed angry all the time, it' made me think about them two.....
The Story of My Life C
Submitted by kellyj on
There's a very common, well known "adjective" you could use to classify this "type" of person. They're called "Sales" people, I was surrounded by them.....my world view for a very long time was everyone was like this and I was the "weird one". LOL Not all "Sales" people fit what you are describing as a personality type, but more than any other career you could list or name, what better career could you fit yourself into? I mean, lets look at the symptoms or better....."List of accolades and desirable qualities" you'd list in a "wanted ad" put into a simple list for a "Sales" position job.
Wanted dynamic sales person to come join our "robust" "Sales Team" of professionals who have the all qualities that will make them the kind of income they want and deserve. ( that's the headline for the ad.....that should catch their eye I think. "Robust" is a "weasle word"......I hear it used all the time now and no one use to use that word much but it's a different way of implying something without actually saying it. Robust
adjective: robust; comparative adjective: robuster; superlative adjective: robustest
1.strong and healthy; vigorous.
"the Caplans are a robust, healthy lot"
synonyms:strong, vigorous, sturdy, tough, powerful, solid, muscular, meat, flesh, sinewy, rugged, hardy, strapping, brawny, burly, husky, heavily built;
Gee, sounds very inviting too. It implies it, in context to everything else "power".....yes, and control!!! It does lend itself or fit, aggresive as well. They don't need to say it, it's contained within the meaning as an assumed or implied quality, it goes with the territory. "Robust" and "Robustness"........"I am Fuck, Fuck of the mountain!!!" That sounds like the job for me boy, NOT!!! LOL
( ad continued )
Please bring the following qualities with you, and come be one of the elite, one of the few who pocess the illustrious qualities that sets you apart from the rest and where you can realize your full potential:
-won't take no for an answer
- works well alone
- can take rejection well
- work hours flexible and high earning ratio potential and low minimum hours per week ( 20 hrs minimum for base salary )
- Has natural charm, superficial good looks and presents well, can easily engage and create a rapport with people, who can easy illicite trust, and gain the customers confidence and is willing to work weekends, or as needed, as the opportunity arises. An Amazing gift of gab and and strong desired to make the sale and a beleif in yourself and your abilities is a must. The person who can sell themselves can sell anything. If you're this person, you have a carreer waiting for you. Come join our family and be a part of our dynamic team.
There you go.....sounds like a sale job written by a sales person to attract more people like this since it's the perfect job for them. I remember my father one time getting pissed off a one of his sales manager or "assistant in training" in line to get their own store if they pass the process saying....."he doesn't have what it takes, I'm getting rid of him ....( soon as I recall )" And out of curiosity ( knowing this gentleman thinking he was actually pretty sharp ) I asked why or on what grounds is he making this decision? Get this one.......it still makes me laugh remembering this as one of those..... "I'm leaving this right where it is and moving on!!! "LOL
"He won't use the word "Lustrous Silver" because he thinks it sounds stupid and he suppose to be a future manager, How can I trust he will follow what we tell him to say if he thinks what we tell him to say is stupid? We're told from upstairs we're suppose to call this entire line "Lustrous Silver" and use that term every time we mention it and he won't do it. He's too good for that."
"Yeah, but dad.......it does sound kinda stupid??.....I mean, if I was standing there looking at this every day looking Sterling Silver, that doesn't look any different than any other silver I've ever seen, and a sales person kept saying "Lustrous"everytime they said it, I'd be going "well, that sounds kinda of a stupid thing to call this, I mean, it's just Silver and looks no different than any other Silver???.....this guy must be kinda stupid to keep repeating this word every time he has to say "silver"...since who talks like that? No one?? And just because he says it's "Lustrous" doesn't make it "Lustrous" does it? I mean, I wasn't born yesterday, who are you trying to kid here? I mean, that's what I'd be thinking? Who goes around saying the word "Lustrous" anyway? I'd feel really uncomfortable and yes.....kind of stupid if I had to do that? I don't understand, what's the big deal and why is that the reason to fire a manager? I mean, I realize his figures aren't as high as the others or making the "cut". How does this "refusal" having anything to do with his sales figures and thinking that saying this word everytime he says "Silver" sounds stupid, because it really kind of does if you want my honest opinion? "
LOL Lets just say, these were not bonding moments with my father!! LOL If you can imagine I finally get the punch line and yes..........I'd still feel stupid doing it, to this day!!! It would be the opposite of "genuine" but then again, that's not the goal.
PS "Lustrous Silver".....sounds remarkably similar to "My Precious..sssssss" ( mine ) just a thought that popped into my head?
Submitted by c ur self on
Well I'm not buying....And as for as putting words in my mouth and jumping through your hoops...I would probably be like the guy that your Dad didn't want to keep! :) I can take instructions if your signing the checks...But, I've never made a good puppet...
C, Romans 8.38-39
Submitted by Chevron on
C, Romans 8.38-39
What I Really Discovered Which Was True
Submitted by kellyj on
As he mentions each type of "aggression" and details each one....he said that most people think "covert aggression" is "passive aggression" and I actually didn't have a category covert in my vocabulary and when he said that I went...."okay, now were getting someonewhere." And really, what he said about "passive aggression" I already knew for the most part. If you can see it or hear it......then it's not passive aggression. That was what my T told me long ago and it stuck...."the problem with passive aggression is, the person your angry or mad at, doesn't know you are? That's exactly right. "Honey on the Toilet Seats" is passive aggressive. No one knew who did it, except for the one who did.( which was me ).
Covert aggession, you can feel and see, it's those time you want to "smack the person" since they are being "catty", "petty" and "got an attitude"....or doing the "Oh, I was just kidding" where you know they weren't but they have plausable deniability to hide behind.....even though you know what they meant. And taking it a step further.....is "weak". "Passive Agression" can reallty make an impact and really send a message even though it's annonymous. It can be really "strong" as far as knowing the message sent. A "burning cross " in your front yard, is pretty unmistably clear? LOL As just another exampkle and you actually would have a "good idea" even if you didn't know exactly because of the signature unvolved.
Covert Aggression is making direct contact one on one and there no mistaking the "inuendo", the "Implications" and the "inferences". That and the accusatorty language whihch is always "Picking a fight". It' really just contempt, with a "buffer" or "mask" on it....as well as " impatience" is a form of anger. The bottom line and this what really hit me....."D....is always angry, always hateful or contemptful, and it leves right under the surface. And it always there, and she is always looking for a fight...cause "fight" is what she does all the time? Either "Aggression" or "Covert Aggression"...."Impatience", "Impertinents" and "irritations and negativity". It just "ooozes" sometimes and is always there.
Passive aggressive I think, is the "results' of being sujected to this kind of abuse for too long, since it builds up, and you've got to hold you toungue....and watch every word you say. It get so bottled up sometimes, it's where the resisting, withdrawing and the "passive agression" comes in. Passive aggresion is really more just frustration and having "moments"?. But this cover thing once I realized it, it's there all the time. It's why it just where you down since fighting, is what they want, and fighting is what they get? As the Dr said who wrote the book......they are "fighters". Not in a good way either. That's not the same as "survivor" or "fighting for your life".....that's just being an asshole, sour grapes and a poor sport. It really is all of those things on the nagative side only. I'm really not all that passive aggressive anymore aside for a couple of things. The revealing thing in that book had to do with "defencse mechanisms" and "strategies". Again, he made that very clear that these "techniques" are not "defensive" in nature and I was going...."yes!!! Thank you......no they are NOT defensive they are "offensive"....in anyway you want to use that word. It was the last visit to my T's office when I really spilled it and didn't care anymore...and the first thing AI said was "What makes you think., you can go around "insulting" me or people, and then get mad at them when they get pissed off after too many of those. poke poke poke......Huh?but the f" And my T siad after a pause, "That wasn't a rhetorical question was it? " 'HELL NO IT'S NOT A REHTORICAL QUESTION!!" lol..... but the fact of the matter is....."insulting" "and "covert aggression"...you can feel and see and know who did it to you since they are spekaing words right then and they are imdeiatly felt....right then. There is nothing passive about it......it's full on aggression, down in a chicken shit...kind of way. That and playing both sides of the fence.....actually can make me angrier than anything else? When I respond to this after too long.......it's just plain old aggression and anger...and wanting to know when that will stop? Like yesterday if you don't mind!! LOL It's insidious..and comes out of the woodwork and into everything that person says. it flavors everyting which is why it so hard to take. it's just pure negativity, and "tit for tat" behavior...even if you didn't do anynthing.....alll you have to do is remind them of something they don't like...and now they don't like you!!! Kind a......it's not "passive" that's for sure.
I also caugt something in there that said. "these people are Chameleons" and I went,....okay, now I understand why saying I was like that didn't come out right? LOL "Camflouge" so the predators don't get you or spot you....is different than a "Chamelion" in hwo they are saying it. I get that now,....."camaflouge" is good to keep you out of harms way sometimes. That for defense again....not offense as he was describing it. Oh, and that "muzzling" thing and stopping the conversation, as it appears....they full well know they are doing it and it's not part of "denial" or out of their awareness. It's plain old stubborness and stonewalling is what it is...and trying to control what you say. I call Bullshit on that ....but fighting against it, is exadtly what they want. It. That 's the "win /lose" for you and your the loser in that case.
Oh, but the one that really mad me angry and I know this one really well too. As he said "if Win / Lose" isn't an option.....( since they win you lose...is first pick.) Then second best for them is Lose / Lose.....since letting you win, would be the worst. They would rather force you to lose and not allow you to win.....by making them lose and you lose both......just so you will never win. It's like the "worst" or "as bad" as you can get....anything but letting you win......that the worst for them? Wow, how low can you go? That's exactly what I was thinking. Anything but lose....so a tie as both losers....is better than a win / win for them? How messed up is that? Unbeleivable.
A Big Conclusion...( ding )
Submitted by kellyj on
I was thinking about this topic of aggression and I recalled I've had this conversation before with myself and I actually have an opinion. What came out of the book was the idea or concept that these well known or rooted in ideas we have may not be that accurate? Sometime semantics do make the difference, when you are trying to see the difference in these "things"yourself? LOL That's a mouthful. It occurred to me thinking about women in this, and how aggression shows itself compared to men, but moving right on by that and looking at simply ""aggression"....I realized the there might be another well known fallacy in thinking out there ( perhaps more with women ).....who are trying to compete or go mano e mano....with a man in a conflict, confrontation or even in a competitive arena of men and women mixed together. Like a a"job" for one and there's plenty more to consider as well. But on the opposing side with men saying woman are too aggressive and are "bitchs" as the stereotype e would say. This entire problem is about power and control....and if you look at the "means" to get there, women are using "aggression" and applying it wrong. Aggression is aggression....any tie you are advancing on someone and closing off their space or crowding into their space and violating some kind of personal boundary.......you're aggressing or you aggressive in that case. Aggression is not what is needed......."strength" is what is needed and not physical strength at all.
Strength...is the story of the Old Man on the Bridge, making tea for the Samurai........aggression would have caused his imnedieate death. That's the problem right there. I've seen it on realithy shows and in the news and even on the News reporters. What men don't like is "aggressive women".....not "strong women" in that respect. And woman don't like 'aggressive men" any more than they do I'll bet. No one enjoys have your space violated. That is not the answer and I think those two words and even the behaviors get confused between "strength" and "aggression". And it's not lifting weights either since no one is punching each other or going down on the wrestling mat here. LOL To be "strong" or to have a "strength" is a different quality and it's not aggressive.....that's the fallacy I was thinking about. In that thinking, if your "strong"....you don't need as much power and control do you? Not as a replacement more to the point.
And I was just now thinking about those moments when I was just about to lose my mind in these circular arguments never got resolved. I realized a big part of the distortion is generated by these people themselves. They'll down play of deny their part, and say "were the aggressive and yelled at me "....for getting angry when you just got another pie in the face. I so don't miss that, but moving on by ( lol )......the accusations themselves start out inflated and not accurate. Im those vicitim moments, the minimizing goes of the charts and it's just ridiculous. But we use to get into over this exact same thing....when I was actually getting up and walking around but talking at the same time....I was becoming "agitated".....all the time. And I was just fine? I wasn't agitated at all? But the more I walked around, the more "she" would get agitated...and then accuse me of being agitated....and now I started to get agitated!!!LOL The only thing making me agitated was her accusing me of being agitated!!
And I remembered that since what she thought was agitated was something entirely different...not even close. I wasn't agitated or getting agitated at all? In fact, I was getting up and stretching and walking around a little. I do it all the time if I've been sitting too long? Nervous energy, has no emotions....just an FYI. lol
I'm getting one of those feelings that says...
The Art of War........Is The Art of Pliancy ( edit )
Submitted by kellyj on
The "Art of War", was written down in 500bc, by the warrior and emperor Sun Tzu in ancient China and is a Master Piece as a literary work. To the point, that they still use it today as a means for military strategists to develope a strategy to go into battle and come out victories against a hostile interloper or hostile adversary or enemy that is bound an determined to "fight." and as this book " Wolf in Sheeps Clothing" clearly suggests....that "Aggressive People, are "Fighters" but also stating, underhandedly and without honor. There is NO HONOR......in behaving and taking the position of the "victim, with victim mentality" since that is at the core or "heart"....of an aggressive abuser which come from "weakness" "Weakness of Character"...and "weakness of moral fiber" and "conviction" or "commitment". There is no honor, is becoming and being a victim and remaining that way only served to keep yourself down. It is a "self defeating" strategy in the long run, and will only serve the immediate with no concern for the future. It literally is "childs-play" and is severly lacking of insight and problem solving since the means always justify the ends which is already starting from a place of 'weakness" even if the people who emply this personal strategy may appear "powerful and strong". In reality, it's the opposite of "strength" or being "powerful" is the only power you wield is at the pont of a gun. If you need to have a "gun" do your talking for you, then this shows itself as "weak and worthless" in temrs of "strength and power." Once the "gun" is gone or you run out of ammo.....you are now at the mercy of your opponent and all will be lost without any other skills or strengths to fall back on. The problem exist since when "fight" comes first instead of last at all time......you're first and last mistake....is the "fight" to begin with. As soon as you pull your gun and point it at your opponent, you've already lost the War....even if you will win the battle. The thinking and the mentality of a victim.....thinks "wrong" in this case.
The "Art of Pliancy" is needed here, that s the missing component. As the saying goes, there's nothing new under the Sun that hasn't been done or thought of before.
If I had to point to one and only one thing to say "How did you survive living under the "rule" of a Tyranical parent in an oppressive enviroment? On my own, and just by observation and intuition ( and trial and error I guess? ) when I read down this list of quotes written by Sun Tzu 500bc y, it resonated with me and I said. " yep, this is the way to do it right here". And the only reason I knew that, was because I did it to a certain degree. To a certain degree, this is what I taught myself to do, and learned to do by "not fighting" and keeping my mouth shut. I realized this in these confrontations with D......no matter what happens at all times....."she can't keep her mouth shut"...and "she has to do what she does and open her mouth" which is her perfered "weapon of choice." Her mouth, is her best "weapon" and she uses it at "will" to overwhelme" and "over power" her taget or adversary and yes, employ these underhanded and "dishonoralble" strategies that show no sings of "Character" or "Strength", The "Strategy" as I stand back here, is the same one used my my co-worker ( the one I mentioned ) or anyone I have noticed who lacks personal strength and character. As I am calling it..."Hostile Take Over"...and a method or strategy to use in an arogant and quite obviously "Disrespectful Way". It is the path of "Dishonor" and "cowardass".......no "strength", "no personal power".....and no regard for the rights or boundaries of others to meet you own agneda and to ge what you want. "Childs-Play" as I call it......since it operated on that level of depth of Character and Honor.
"In feudal times the old form of Jiujutsu was mainly learned for fighting purposes. In this recent school it is developed into a system of athletics and mental and moral training. In this school daily instruction is carried on by means of lectures on the theory of Jiudo, by discussion among pupils and by actual practice.
In Jiujutsu as formerly taught, the art of pliancy, as it is best called, the practice of the art was of most importance: in Jiudo, which is an investigation of the laws by which one may gain by yielding, practice is made subservient to the theory, although when studied as a system of athletics, practice plays a more important role." There it is, "thoughts first, then practice". if the thinking is "wrong".....then you will be wrong from the first step you take. "Fighters" only "fight". The first step is wrong and they are wrongt, right out of the hole to begin with. it is a position or weakness, not of strength.
the property of being pliant
Quality of being easily bent or influenced.
The quality or state of being pliant in sense; as, the pliancy of a rod.
The state of being pliant, in a physical or moral sense; easiness to be bent.
Easiness to be bent; readiness to be influenced.
the quality of being easily adaptable
Antonyms for pliancy
mulishness, self-opinionatedness, stubbornness, severity, intransigence, rigor, rigorousness, obstinateness, rigidity, willfulness, rigidness, hardheadedness, harshness, exactingness, obduracy, strictness, hardness, obstinacy, stringency, inflexibility, opinionatedness, pertinaciousness, obdurateness, sternness, bullheadedness, doggedness, pertinacity.
Usage examples for pliancy
“ But the worst thing that we could possibly do, was, to steer the zigzag course; for by so doing we were certain not only to cause constant vexations to America, but, by our half measures and partial pliancy also to drive Mr. Wilson even further and further into the inflexible attitude of a policy of prestige. ” – My Three Years in America by Johann Heinrich Andreas Hermann Albrecht Graf von Bernstorff
“ It was a tiny thing, designed to hold a child's play- pretties or a young girl's sewing, but shaped and fashioned after the manner of mountain baskets, and woven of stout white hickory withes shaved down to daintier size and pliancy by the old man's jack- knife. ” – The Power and the Glory by Grace MacGowan Cooke
“ Youth being for learning this art undoubtedly the best season, for reasons as I have before observed, too obvious to need insisting on, the master cannot pay too much attention to the availing himself of the pliancy of that age, to give his scholars the necessary instructions for preparing and well- disposing their limbs. ” – A Treatise on the Art of Dancing by Giovanni-Andrea Gallini
“ Mrs. Aubrey, most dotingly fond of her husband, and a blooming young mother of two as charming children as were to be met with in a day's walk all over both the parks, was, in character and manners, all pliancy and gentleness; while about Miss Aubrey there was a dash of spirit which gave an infinite zest to her beauty. ” – Ten Thousand a-Year. Volume 1. by Samuel Warren
“ By the pliancy of their moral code they consecrated the basest means to pious ends. ” – Monks, Popes, and their Political Intrigues by John Alberger
“ About this time the sleds gave us much trouble- the rough usage they had undergone necessitating constant repairs, but these were quickly made, for not a scrap of metal enters into the construction of a Kolyma dog- sled; merely wooden pegs and walrus- hide thongs, which are more durable and give more spring and pliancy than iron nails. ” – From Paris to New York by Land by Harry de Windt
“ Nowhere has the author's marvellous power of expression, the mingled dignity and pliancy of her style, obtained a greater triumph. ” – Views and Reviews by Henry James
“ The woman of flesh refuses pliancy when we want it of her, and will not, until it is her good pleasure, be bent to the development called a climax, as the puppet- woman, mother of Fiction and darling of the multitude! ” – The Complete Project Gutenberg Works of George Meredith by George Meredith
“ But he protested that he had himself, only erred through an excessive pliancy to the will of others. ” – Project Gutenberg History of The Netherlands, 1555-1623, Complete by John Lothrop Motley
“ Leibnitz, the great creative intellect of his time, a wonderful mixture of elastic pliancy and firm tranquillity, of sovereign certainty and tolerant geniality, worked, by his countless monographs and endless letters, especially on the leaders of the nation and on foreigners, on princes, statesmen, and scholars, opening a path on all sides, and hastening forward to disclose the widest prospects. ” – Pictures of German Life in the XVIIIth and XIXth Centuries, Vol. I. by Gustav Freytag
“ The strain of fear and incessant watchfulness was removed, and with the lessening of that tension had come a pliancy of look and gesture, a richness of tone that found me unprepared. ” – Montlivet by Alice Prescott Smith
“ Joseph accepted the information with his usual pliancy ” – The Nether World by George Gissing
“ The manner in which some species are now becoming scarce and dying out, one after the other, appeared to me to favour the doctrine of the fixity of the specific character, showing a want of pliancy and capability of varying, which ensured their annihilation whenever changes adverse to their well- being occurred; time not being allowed for such a transformation as might be conceived capable of adapting them to the new circumstances, and of converting them into what naturalists would call new species. ” – The Antiquity of Man by Charles Lyell
“ For unlimited pliancy was the quality which German importunity evoked on the part of the highest authorities. ” – England and Germany by Emile Joseph Dillon
“ According to the Baron's computation, she was about thirty- four years old, and yet her tall slender figure had all the pliancy of early youth. ” – Erlach Court by Ossip Schubin
“ Unlike most violinists, he was tall and thin, with great pliancy of body and swift sway of movement. ” – Beyond by John Galsworthy
“ So- called leather- boards are unsuitable, for, in spite of great toughness and pliancy they are certain to cockle and always remain spongy. ” – Practical Bookbinding by Paul Adam
“ But, while Chinese was arrested and became traditional in this very early stage the radical, other dialects passed on through that stage, retaining their pliancy ” – Lectures on The Science of Language by Max MÃ¼ller
Just look at this one defintion I pulled up for the word "Pliancy". Look at the "antonyms" and there just more validation for what I'm saying. Everyone of those qualities and adjective terms, were used in the nook "Wolf in Sheeps Clothing"...right down to the letter. "Aggression" leads directly to these results as an offensive weapon....on the offense. It might be used as a meamns to respond to attack, but "The Art of Pliancy"...and the "The Art of War" are the means to emplpy it or apply it correctly and wield the same "power" against them? It's the Art of "using their own negative energy" against them and turning it back on them to use to your advantage. In the very essense of it....you are making it so for every mistake or every time they aggress or go on the offensive.....the cost to themselves becomes greather or worse. There own self defeating strategy, is then multiplied and the consequences for them to continue...out wight the benefits. This all comes "from your opponent"...and "it's ther energy you are using and sending it right back to them in the moment....which becomes self defeating for them both in the long run and the short run with no where to go from there.
And very much, in real life and in real time.......I shut my wife down, and stipped her of her ability to do this with me...and the harder she tried and the more aggressive she became....the less she got and the more it didn't work. And the more and more frustrated and depressed she became. I fundamentally shut her down and shut down and turned off her abilithy to use these strategies with me, and she lost all her power which only made her angry and depressed which utimately, she couldn't stand any longer so she left...and moved on to go do this again to someone else. Just like the author explained they will do. When the cost to a Bully for Bullying no longer yeilds results, or worse, the cost becomes greater for them than the benefits for being this way, fromn their own weakness and their own lack of character....they got nothing or get nothing in that case, and you have won the war if if you have to concede to the battles depending on the circumstances and each battle as they come. A person who emplys a "My way, or the Highway" attitude....will employ the same end result for themselves, when push comes to shove. When they push.....you shove it back at them and this eventuyally will not yeild the results that this kind of menatility by "Hostile Take Over" and the mentality of a Victim who is an aggressive Bully or as said......"Disturbed Character".......will likely hit the Highway, when there efforts yeild no results. It will drive them crazy.....even crazier than they are making you and you don't have to fight to do it.........playing "Chess with a Checkers Player"......is "childs-play" after all?
I mean, if you are going up against an "Aggressive Fighter" type mentality, who is using underhanded and disreputale means to attack you......you are in an adversarialy relationship with this person 24/7...since they are in one with you, whether you know it or not? You are at "War" with a person of this mentality..and you are the "enemy" to themm so you need to keep this in mind. You, are the enemy to "them" and something to be "afraid of" and they will respond to you and treat you like one, and attack you and fight you on all fronts. Under the circumstance......you have no other opttion than to go to "War" with this mentality..and the best resource and the best means as a stategy is found firectly in the "Art of War ago, by Sun Tzu of China, that long ago..Just, to show you an example of these teachings as an overview of the entire strategy itself.......if you want to shut them down, drive them crazy and confuse them to no end.......this is the way to do it right here. The Art of Plancy...and the entire philosophy of "Martial Arts".....comes from the Sun Tzu and the original Art of War that he devised that long ago. Like I said, nothing new under the sun.....nothing that has ever been thought of or done on here earth, hasn't been done or thought of before.
“Appear weak when you are strong, and strong when you are weak.”
― Sun Tzu, The Art of War
tags: deception, life, war
“The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.”
― Sun Tzu, The Art of War
tags: diplomacy, strategy, victory, war
“If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.”
― Sun Tzu, The Art of War
“Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”
― Sun Tzu, The Art
“Supreme excellence consists of breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.”
― Sun Tzu, The Art of War
“Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win”
― Sun Tzu, The Art of War
“All warfare is based on deception. Hence, when we are able to attack, we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must appear inactive; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when far away, we must make him believe we are near.”
― Sun Tzu, The Art of War
tags: deception, strategy, tactics, war, warfare
“If your enemy is secure at all points, be prepared for him. If he is in superior strength, evade him. If your opponent is temperamental, seek to irritate him. Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant. If he is taking his ease, give him no rest. If his forces are united, separate them. If sovereign and subject are in accord, put division between them. Attack him where he is unprepared, appear where you are not expected .”
― Sun Tzu, The Art of War
tags: preparation, security, strategy, tactics, war
“In the midst of chaos, there is also opportunity”
“To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.”
― Sun Tzu
tags: enemy, sun-tzu, war
“The greatest victory is that which requires no battle.”
― Sun Tzu, The Art of War
“Engage people with what they expect; it is what they are able to discern and confirms their projections. It settles them into predictable patterns of response, occupying their minds while you wait for the extraordinary moment — that which they cannot anticipate.”
― Sun Tzu, The Art of War
tags: opportunity, people, predictability, surprise
“There is no instance of a nation benefitting from prolonged warfare.”
― Sun Tzu, The Art of War
Thus we may know that there are five essentials for victory:
1 He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight.
2 He will win who knows how to handle both superior and inferior forces.
3 He will win whose army is animated by the same spirit throughout all its ranks.
4 He will win who, prepared himself, waits to take the enemy unprepared.
5 He will win who has military capacity and is not interfered with by the sovereign.”
― Sun Tzu, The Art of War
“Even the finest sword plunged into salt water will eventually rust.”
“Move swift as the Wind and closely-formed as the Wood. Attack like the Fire and be still as the Mountain.”
― Sun Tzu, The Art of War
“The art of war is of vital importance to the State. It is a matter of life and death, a road either to safety or to ruin. Hence it is a subject of inquiry which can on no account be neglected.”
― Sun Tzu, The Art of War
tags: importance, safety, state, war
“Treat your men as you would your own beloved sons. And they will follow you into the deepest valley.”
― Sun Tzu,
“Opportunities multiply as they are seized.”
― Sun Tzu
“When the enemy is relaxed, make them toil. When full, starve them. When settled, make them move.”
― Sun Tzu, The Art of War
“When you surround an army, leave an outlet free. Do not press a desperate foe too hard.”
― Sun Tzu, The Art of War
“know yourself and you will win all battles”
― Sun Tzu
“There are not more than five musical notes, yet the combinations of these five give rise to more melodies than can ever be heard.
"There are not more than five primary colors, yet in combination they produce more hues than can ever been seen."
"There are not more than five cardinal tastes, yet combinations of them yield more flavors than can ever be tasted.”
― Sun Tzu, The Art of War
tags: colors, creativity, diversity, idic, innovation, inspirational, invention, music, problem-solving
“So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong, and strike at what is weak.”
― Sun Tzu, The Art of War
“If you wait by the river long enough, the bodies of your enemies will float by.”
― Sun Tzu
“When strong, avoid them. If of high morale, depress them. Seem humble to fill them with conceit. If at ease, exhaust them. If united, separate them. Attack their weaknesses. Emerge to their surprise.”
― Sun Tzu
“To win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill.”
― Sun Tzu, The Art of War
tags: art-of-war, intimidation, peace, psychology, strategy, victory, war
“he who wishes to fight must first count the cost”
― Sun Tzu, The Art of War
“Build your opponent a golden bridge to retreat across.”
― Sun Tzu
“Be extremely subtle even to the point of formlessness. Be extremely mysterious even to the point of soundlessness. Thereby you can be the director of the opponent's fate.”
― Sun Tzu, The Art of War
As I took inventory of this entire list here and just thought about when and where I learned to do them? Growing up in a houshold with a Tyrant...who was an aggressive abuser and the "aggressor" or who "drew "First Blood "always. Game on. Chess with a Checkers player......Art of War = Survival. Either you survive, adapt and overcome and become a Marine nd lose a few battes along the way ( and lose your selfish pride and your ego as well....or you sink and drown and lose the War.
And nothings really changed between then and now, they "Hate it"...and "Hate You"....the better you become at doing this. The better you become at wielding this power, the more powerless they become and the more they Hate it. ( and you at the same time) So why do you do it? Or why did I pay such a high price and what was I paying for?
Self respect. It's worth the price of admission, for sure, without a doubt what so ever? If I had to do it again, would I do it differently? Hell no, mu self respect is worth more, than "them Hating me for it". That's a no brainer right there. But you have to follow this program exactly as prescribed. The second you stray or go off course and start playing both sides of the fence, you are no longer clean, and you lose you power...just like them. Playing both sides of the fence is where you lose your power and stength. it's this same underhanded means that this person is employing and the second you compormise yourslef using that tactic......you've already lost the War...and you become "child's play" to someone who is staying on course and is employing these strategies in the moment of Honor and Respect.......Honor and Respect are both earned...and you earn it by doing it.....the actions that prove your own self worth to them and yourself. They lose....and you ultimately win....each time you can successfully do this but it ain't easy....failure still comes, but it won't stop you from getting back on the horse and making a second attempt each time you do. It's all right here, all you have to do is learn how? That all.
Hey C.........Listening to the Book
Submitted by kellyj on
I just wanted to give you the heads up and also Thank smd1409 for the recommendation on the book. I had a free credit for an audio book version and I've been listening to it to day off and on and it has some really good information.
I just wanted to say something here, that I think is absolutely true. The "Truth" is not a difficult concept or difficult to understand in terms of tangible objects and "things" related to the physical world. If I say the sky is Blue....you may say it's "Cyan"? That's just two ways, of saying the same thing....Cyan....is just a shade or hue of Blue.....but Blue is Blue....no matter what shade or hue it is. Once Blue goes to Green....it is no longer Blue and Blue / Green....or Teal....is an somewhere in between?
But when someone walks into the room, and claims the sky is "Green"......I don't really need to go outside to see if that's true...because I pretty much know it's not going to be Green and I have no doubt in my mind? Unless something way out of the nomr is going on outside....like the Auroa Borialis or something? The "night sky" could be Green....under those circumstances? I think if we dismiss what people say as "not true" without looking for ourselves to see what they are saying....then they may be saying what they are seeing....( or what they beleive they see ) and we are just too set in our ways...to actually go look for ourselves? And if we do go look, and we see the Blue Sky as always.....then the obvious question would be for that person...."what are you seeing that I'm not?" Where is the Green in the sky? And they go "the whole sky is Green......you're crazy it's not Blue" That's not a matter of opinion or semantics.....that's a horse of different color right there? And the only way of getting to the bottom of it, is to go outside and look?
There can be only a few options here in a scenario if you go outside and look and what you see is Blue sky....then come back inside and confront them with what you saw?
A) Either they are color blind, which really doesn't matter or affect you at all? If they perceive Green and you see Blue like everyone else....then what does that matter....there is a reason for it, that is easy to understand.
B) They think Blue is Green........and that's what they think? Okay, so they got the nomenclature wrong.....no harm no foul, no need to argue with them if that's the case. I just wouldn't have them go pick out paint colors from a shopping list though without having a "paint chip" example to use as a way visually match? LOL
C) You come back inside and they bust up laughing and go....."ha ha....made you look". Highly annoying, and not very creative. Very unimaginative and not really funny. Take it from an expert here....that is boring as Hell? LOL Now laying down a thin film of Honey, creating a uniform glaze on a black institutionalized toilet seat.....now that is creative, and takes some skill to pull off!! LOL
Or stringing some rubber bands linked together across the road just high enough to miss the roof of a car or a motorcyclist...but low enough to catch on a car Antenna....is worth hours of entertainment, to sit and watch cars go by and watch the Antenna suddenly go "thowng"...and watch the people stop and get out and try and figure out who or what did that? Now that's creative..and takes some engineering to pull off correctly!!! LOL And it's not to see if you can get them to get out of the car and stop....it's to see the look on their face and stand their scratching their head and looking around and wondering WTF??? It's a guarantee they are going to hit the rubber bands....you know they are going to do it.....you just don't know what they will do once it happens.....that's the interesting part and what is most entertaining!! LOL When you are grade school that is? I was in 7th grade when I did the Honey Seat incident? LOL
Or one time, when I was Scuba diving...I can across a fishermans lure and bait odangling on the line...and I couldn't help myself, but to give the line a "yank". LOL And this old guy must have been a pretty good fisherman, cause he set the hook in my glove, before I could let go of the line!! LOL And it took some wrestling with the line and my other hand, to ge the hook unset. I also came up under a Sea Gull once...and grabbed it's feet from underneath the water and gave it a scare!! Apparently, as my survival instructor told us, ...that no matter what and even if you're starving....you never want to eat a Sea Gull...no matter what? And apparently, other critters know this too so Sea Gulls are not use to being preyed upon like that? LOL I probably gave that poor Sea Gull..a nervous disorder after that one...hopefully not , but I let him go immediately. LOL That was when I was 17....( both times ) and a Jr in High School. LOL
The point I'm making is this. I have no problem telling anyone or you about this "practical jokes" I use to pull. And even with the fisherman who's line I pulled on....even though we got out of the water way down from where he was....I heard him yelling at me....."Damn kids!!!.....quit pulling on our lines!!!" We weren't fooling anyone......that's the point!! LOL "What? Who me? nawww?" LOL Everyone was in on it, eventually or they figured it out rather quickly and the motivation was clear. It was a practical or pysical joke..and making someone the "butt" of your joke? I was famous for that, when the opportunity arose? Like coming up from underwater and seeing these Sea Gulls feet hanging down into the water....it was just too tempting since it was right there? LOL That was more my style......it was how I rolled back then. When opportunity knocked.....I rarely missed a beat? Not that hard to figure out....as juvenile as it was? But I didn't go out of my way to do it....it was a very free flowing creative thing?
But as I'm saying this......I'm recalling just last week, this "thing" again, that D always does. It's like she does it, then does it again....and then again, and then again, and then again? Now if you take the Honey seat incident, as with any Artist of this kind.....these are "one off" adventures in creativity......you cannot go back and do it again and have it do it for you in the same way? One time, is all you get. If you did it again....it just wouldn't be that funny again? I mean, for the Artist...as it were? LOL I rarely pulled the same stunt twice.......I am an Artist after all.....no two works are ever the same? LOL I mean, what self respecting Artist...keep painting the same still life over and over? it reminds of that commercial where there;s store front , and the sing outside read "Herbs Rug"...but when the customer went in to look...there was only One Rug there? And when he asked how much the rug was..Herb said.."well, if I sell you my rug....then I'd have to change the name of my store now wouldn't I? " LOL Well, Herb has a point.....but it also makes no sense what so ever? Now we are getting closer to what I'm getting at here?
So D.....just the other night......tells me she bought me "Chocolate Milk" at the store since I still like Chocolate Milk as well a mild shakes. They are two of my favorites.....and she remembered this? Well, now that was nice now wasn't it? Because it was? She thought of me, along with some other things she bought and that was a thoughtful thing to do and showed real thought in my direction. And she never drinks the stuff, or rarely if ever?
So, she mentions it again to remind me that it's there...and I'm going "oh yeah, thanks I forgot!" So here I am, having seconds and thirds I glasses...and I'm on m last glass and she goes....."so you're drinking the last of my Chocolate Milk?"...as I am down to the last half a glass.......and I immediately "stop" and am now concerned? "Oh, I'm sorry....I didn't know you wanted any? Normally you don't?"
And her reply was "Oh...I don't want any....I'm just kidding...I got it for you anyway, I'm on a diet" It's the same as option C) and the Green sky Prank. "Ha ha....made you look!!"......but WHY?? What is the motivation behind it? I mean, it;s stupid....even by my own "pranking standards" LOL And then they do it again....and again...and again? What is funny about that? I mean, even for a kid...as I was back then? I wouldn't or didn't think that was funny? Now making car Atennas go...."Thowng"..and watching how all the people reacted and what they did and each one did didn't things and you never knew what you would get.....now that was funny. for hours if you bored and looking for something entertaining to do? LOL While you were sitting back just watching...and taking in the show? In fact....the best prank that I ever witness personally..that I had nothing to do with....was in college at my drom....when someone in the dorm called in a "riot"..across the street at a Fraternity house....."with weapons" as he said.....and then called back and said there was a "dead body" in the parking lot?
I'be got to say as far a "cheap entertainment" t or "cheap thrills"....that you had nothing to do with but caught wind of it as it was happening....... If you want to see a lot of cops ( like 20 or more ) converge in one spot in a hurry...and with dogs and commotion and quarantining off the block and the whole nine yards...while you sit in you dorm room with a couple of friends and watch out the window while having a few beers......that was one of the most entertaining and completely illegal pranks I have ever personally witnessed? LOL And of course, there was the time I cleared the entire dorm room on the last day of school, by accident when I caught the garbage dumpster on fire by throwing a "dud" M100 "seal bomb" down the garbage shute? Un-itended..and that one got way out of hand!! That was the worst thing I think I have ever done destructively but that was not my intention....it just all went horribly wrong!! I also knew...that the garbage room was locked and was made of cement walls and nothing else was in there at the time? I actually looked before hand...just to make sure as I was walking by on the way to the elevator.....another opportunity "knocks" and the place was 1/2 empty? Again....there is a direct connection to these "pranks" and their entertainment value whether it would do it for you or not.....you get the picture and why? It still makes sense.....in a juvenile way? I was 19 years old at the time.....2 years after the fishing line incident. LOL I was still a teenager....even of I was in college? What I remember is the 30% rule that Dr Barkley mentioned.......30% off 19....is about 13 if you do the math? LOL And 30% off of 17....is pushing 11 1/2 years young...for all intensive purposes? Which, if I stop and think about it....that's about right?
But the guy who called in the riot in my dorm....actually got caught and got expelled from the dorm. But he was doing stuff like that all the time..and was always causing trouble. It wasn't the firs time he did something like that....it just ramped up each time and got worse....and that was his masterpiece. LOL It was pattern, in what I'm saying.....eventually after enough of them....he finally got caught? I on the other hand.....never got caught except with the Honey on the seat, since my coach knew me so well? ( or at least suspected since he had caught me red handed before? Back at age 13 which amounted to about 9...in maturity...at the time. LOL But to the point.....these things do not amuse me nor am I inclined...nor do I do them...any more!!! LOL They would be highly annoying to me now....and I would be looking to put an end to it....and find the culprits for that very reason. I know, why....and I know why they would be doing it? I understand the motivation...and even with that...as my coach dod with me and the Honey Seat......I could secretly go "well, that was really creative....I've got to hand it to them...."touche" "....."NOW KNOCK IT OFF!!!" LOL As I would be today fi I was talking to me. lol All in good fun....even if you are the butt of the joke?
So this thing...where my wife.....gives me something and says it's your's.....but then as you are drinking it.....makes you feel guilty....and like you were thoughtless for not thinking of her....or the person who gets you go outside and look to see if the sky is Green....just to come back and say...."you idiot, made you look! ha ha ha!! " that's really makes no sense? What's the motivation and why? What do they get out of that, and whats the joke? I mean,,, the joke is absolutely stupid...and not very creative at all? And then they do it again....and then again....and they keep doing it? It wasn't funny the first time....nor the second....nor the third. After 100 of those.......now something is really really wrong here? There is something going on here....that you are not privileged to? And it appears the only person who is in on it....is that person...and they are telling? Why would someone do that? What do they get out of it more to the point?
it was like my ex wife, when I was talking to her later after our divorce and she's telling me of these "things" that she's doing now....that she wouldn't or I couldn't get her to do with me? What is up with that...and why?
Well, here's a really good explanation.....I just ran into today.
Some female sociopaths demonstrate antisocial behavior as children and as adolescents. Lying, stealing, truancy, cruelty to animals and siblings, drug abuse, early sexual activity. Of course, there may be frequent run-ins with the law. Their parents are very often distraught because there is so little they can do. As adults, these female sociopaths may end up abusing alcohol and drugs and end up in and out of prison.
Some therapists believe that there is such a disregard for society among them that a sociopath that has not broken the law just hasn't been found out yet!
Many of the women who lead destructive cults are sociopaths.
There seems to be two themes among female sociopaths that are not so prevalent in male led groups, one being the avoidance of sex and the other being food.
The women psychopaths may target women who want to get away from sex for whatever reason. Instead they offer female nurturing and support.
As well as offering meals when potential 'clients' have none, there are cults based on eating healthily or losing weight. This is typical of cults, they offer something people want but behind the outer facade is a second set of ideas or principles. People enter for one thing and end up having the leader control their lives.
These are the ones that are so difficult to count! Despite their sociopath symptoms, they manage to integrate themselves into society to varying degrees. Everything from solitary lives where they live on the money they make from crimes for which they are not caught, to getting married, settling down and having children.
It's interesting to read or listen to the stories of some of these female sociopaths. Typically, they realize as children that they are different in some way. They think differently and make different decisions. Then they begin to understand that they are not so 'affected' by emotions. It's seems that it's common for them to think that this is because they are smarter than those around them.
They begin from an early age to look for clues to recognize the emotions that others are actually having. They learn to mimic the emotions so as not to stand out, or to please others. They learn to create relationships that are beneficial for them.
Female sociopaths have all the symptoms of sociopaths. The lying, the parasitic lifestyle, the need for excitement and the desire to control. It's possible that there are many female sociopaths who live, for all intents and purposes, what looks like a normal life from the outside. They are content to just blend in and do what "normal" people do.
Others however, want more. More money, more power, more control, more excitement. And they get themselves into trouble because of the impulsivity or the failure to control their emotions, or the irresponsibility.
One of the ways this shows up is in problems in their marriage. In true sociopath style, they attract a man, create an intimate relationship, influence his decision making and get married. It's common for them to isolate the man from his friends and family to varying degrees. They can be very domineering and controlling, using sex as a means to manipulate. The man may suffer verbal abuse, psychological abuse, emotional abuse and even physical abuse.
When there are children involved it gets infinitely more complicated. Especially in separations and divorces. The female sociopaths have no difficulty (remember no remorse, guilt or pity for anybody) in using the children as pawns or objects to try to continue to manipulate the man.
They will extract information from the children about the father to use against him, they will influence how and what the children think about the father, and they may prevent the father from having any contact with the children. The welfare of the children is not considered. What's important is that they continue to maintain control and power.
In family matters where the police or the courts involved, they have no difficulty in lying, inventing stories and doing whatever is necessary to get what they want. They can play the victim role very well, as most sociopaths do, and will use society's preferences towards women and mothers to their advantage.
We normally think women are empathic and nurturing and don't expect to see cold-hearted, uncaring, callous behaviors in women. We don't consider that they could be more devious, manipulative, destructive, vindictive and downright nasty than their male counterparts. But just ask any man who has been a victim of female sociopaths...!
Had a bad experience?
Why yes, I certainly have. I'm not thinking of D here ( exactly or strictly ) but she does fit everything said to a T? Not all of them apparently have desings on destruction like the one I encountered perviously....but everything this said is exactly what I know now? Why make me feel guilty for drinking Mild she doesn't want? Power and control. Why does my ex wife tell me things that only would make me feel bad. Power and control....envy, to make me envious of her which is didn't but it would if it were her? She was envious of me,...so she was trying to make me envious of her but it didn't work? It only made me scratch my head and go....huh? No anymore though.....I'm getting the picture fast.
Like I said so long ago and now it has even more meaning than before.......in the immortal words of Frank Zappa......" women, you can be an assholes too.....don't pretend you don't got one on the bottom on you" Apparently, Mr Zappa was not that far off base after all? Not all woman of course.....but some of them, and it certianly doesn't mean they don't exist. The motivation and the reasoning is all screwed up with makes no sense what so ever? It's very hard to see, a "secret agenda" what ever it is?
And it certainly isn't funny....and they "aren't kidding" either. it's no joke that's for sure.
His life is off limits for discussion.....
Submitted by c ur self on
I too deal w/ the same from time to time...My thoughts concerning it.....
It sounds like he doesn't want you to ever speak about him, and when you do, he may be hearing (judging it to be) patronizing instead of threat free interest...He knows his reality, but, he needs Only acceptance and affirmation coming from you...Based on my attempts at seeking open lines of communication about our difference's, preferences, and realities it seems almost impossible for her to open up to that...She just cannot handle conversations of any type that revolves around her living of life...No matter my intent....This maybe your husband also.....
Does he do OK with non-personal subject matter ? (i.e.....what's for supper, what to watch on the tube, the kids, etc...) The only way to stop you is to spin it, or show anger (threaten)....It's just an avoidance tactic....But it works for them....It allows them to control their environment....This is why so many who live in a mind like this comes home from work complaining about their co-workers or bosses....Spinning it, denial and anger isn't acceptable on the job. So they resort to blame or job swapping when they are held accountable....
"How Can My Husband Hear Something So Opposite"?
Submitted by GiveMePatience on
I truly hope that you know that many of us here feel, I'm sure, that we could have written what you wrote here. I was particularly struck by your question of, "How can my husband hear something so opposite to what I meant or said?"... As it took me OVER twenty years, almost thirty, to 'figure out' that this is EXACTLY what is going on. As in, my husband DOES HEAR things SO OPPOSITE to what has actually been said... LITERALLY!!!!! When I FINALLY 'figured out' what is going on here (my husband is 'undiagnosed'), I read every possible thing that I could get my hands on, regarding ADHD. The arguing STOPPED, as I FINALLY LEARNED NOT TO ENGAGE HIM. It is NEAR IMPOSSIBLE not to REACT, when someone flies off the handle at you... But it FINALLY DAWNED ON ME, my husband was flying off the handle AT NOTHING! Instead of 'reacting', I would simply, quietly ask him, "What did I just say?" When he would respond with something that was NOWHERE EVEN CLOSE to what I had said, or even HOW I had said it, I FINALLY 'understood' a HUGE part of the problem... And have since been working on 'trying to correct' it. (As much as possible).
Going back a bit, when I have my husband 'repeat' what I said, and it is NOWHERE NEAR what I had ACTUALLY said, I simply and CALMLY say, "No... That is not what I said. I said (fill in the blank)". He will usually still be in 'arguing mode' and want to 'keep going' and I will continue, CALMLY RESTATING what I had actually said. By practicing EXTREME PATIENCE with this, I have gotten him to tell me - and realize himself, that he DOESN"T ACTUALLY LISTEN to what I am SAYING... He has stated that he is 'DECIPHERING' what he believes I ''REALLY mean"... or what I am 'TRYING' to say... From this, the one piece of advice that I can give you is to CONSTANTLY STATE YOUR INTENTIONS, of what you are saying and MEANING. If your husband is anything like mine, his 'natural inclination' is to hear REALLY NEGATIVE things... even if NOTHING OF THE SORT is being said... One of the best things that I have realized, is to say "I am NOT questioning you. I am SIMPLY ASKING YOU A QUESTION".
Also, as I mentioned, my husband is not 'officially' diagnosed. He is still somewhat in 'denial'... Although... One of the ways that I believe I have been moving toward him 'accepting' that he has ADHD, is by asking him, in a 'light-hearted' way, "Tell me EIGHT THINGS that are on your mind RIGHT NOW". He laughs, because he cannot deny it! So, obviously, without an 'official diagnosis', there cannot be any 'medication'. I have spent COUNTLESS HOURS researching vitamins, supplements, 'deficiencies' (which there are MANY in people with ADHD'... And have had some REALLY GOOD 'results'. It has been about two months now, since my husband has even 'raised his voice'!
I will be hoping that SOMETHING that I have written here helps you, twobytwo. Just know that there is 'someone out there' who UNDERSTANDS, COMPLETELY.
Hearing the opposite
Submitted by Chevron on
GiveMePatience, thank you. I hope your post helped twobytwo. It did me. Daily life at home sometimes feels lonely. No one to witness these "alternate reality" events, the spouse insisting that your perception, not his ...of what you said...is flawed. These moments nearly brought down my brand new late in life marriage.
the one piece of advice that I can give you is to CONSTANTLY STATE YOUR INTENTIONS, of what you are saying and MEANING.
That is what I stumbled onto. Nowadays even if we're not in one of those 180 degree opposite hearing moments, I am stating my intentions a lot more with my ADHD husband than I do with other people.
I also ask him whether or not his mood has to do with me, if he's grouching around. Mine will tell the truth, and can sort out anger against me personally from anger at something else. It's often something else.
So lol, sometimes he's projecting negativity onto me and sometimes he's grouching and doesnt have me in mind at all....
If your husband is anything like mine, his 'natural inclination' is to hear REALLY NEGATIVE .things... even if NOTHING OF THE SORT is being said...
Same here. And in these spells, it often extends to presuming what I am doing is an intended acting out against him. It can be very wearing...
Yes your calm replies and questions are a good way to go.