Hi all ,
This is my first post , I just joined and can relate a lot to what folks are talking about. I'm at my wits end here with my partner. We've been together almost 4 years and have gone through the mill emotionally. Both had baggage and have been trying to work through it . We tried couple counseling for a few months but he ended that as he didn't want to "keep going over the same problems and digging up the past". My partner who has ADHD was diagnosed a couple of years ago. He is a recovering chronic addict whos latest usage was weed for 18 months , all day every day ( an attempt at self medication) . Hes now 4 weeks clean and sober and back going to meetings,looking for a sponser. While thats great and I support him quitting 100% , it hasn't altered his behavior much . He goes the gym every day and bodybuilds to the point of fanaticism alongside keen focus on diet & nutrition.
He great with my 2 kids , aged 9 & 12 and our pets. Very responsible & loving. The main issue is I walk on eggshells most of the time as when he gets upset ,it escalates fast and he vents,loudly and aggressivley , says awful insulting things , how he cant stand me,my family are worthless,I'm just like them , my background is flawed /I'm a psycho etc etc and then storms off , sometimes for weeks. I usually get a text letting me know I've been dumped and calling me names or the other stone cold approach telling me "its for the best ".I don't hear from him for up to a month. I used to fall apart , cry & miss him terribly but the last few times its a matter of just carrying on.The embarrassment of explaining to my family and friends of why he won't be attending events , special days or prior commitments is awful. Their advice of telling me to forget him and me , like a fool taking him back.
He has so many amazing qualities ,great sense of humour , loyal ,generous but the rug can be pulled out at any time from under me and within minutes I'm left alone again. The latest reason is to "find himself" and "focus on his recovery in some space alone " away from me.
This usually happens if he perceives me to be condescending in any way , either by my tone or body language. Its definitely not intentional on my part. He interprets any suggestion or attemt at explanation as "treating him like dirt" or "talking to him like a child" and the storm off/break up is the result. He changes dynamic so often I can't keep up. Its like having to support 2 opposite football teams who swap jerseys and I'm confused as to which one to cheer for on any given day. He gets upset if you don't keep up.
Our latest (you couldn't even call it an ) argument was last night .I'd booked a couple of nights in a hotel as a break , brought us for massages yesterday, nice meals etc and all was going well.
I asked him to pass me a cigarette just as I was getting out of the shower and he refused ,despite having it right, beside him. I asked why and he stormed out. I followed him and asked again and was told to Drop it , let it go. Baffled I was asking Why not though , whats the problem ? He then kept telling me to shut up ,that I was starting a fight over a stupid cigarette. Insisting there was nothing to fight about ,I just don't get it and that led to him being aggressive , calling names,growling through his teeth ,saying I never shut up , yak yak yak ,nag ,nag,nag and eventually him knocking the lights off to sleep. I sat in the bathroom crying and that annoyed him even more. I couldn't sleep and poured a glass of wine to try read in the other bed and that annoyed him worse. It felt like no matter what i did,it would be met with hostility.
He left this morning again after a one liner about how this wasn't working out. 3 days break ( the first in years from work & kids) ,costing almost 800 euro and he just left.I'm sitting looking at an empty room heartbroken again.
Is it normal for people with ADHD to fly off the handle to easily? Hes had years of counselling in treatment centers for drugs and looks down on most councilors and professionals. apparently its all my fault for keeping on nagging ( asking whats gone wrong )and forcing him into what he calls an ADHD rant. Hes blocked me online & phone now and I've no way to contact him .I'm serious baffled and no idea if I want a future ith him.Is he just being nasty or is he genuinely not able to control this anger. Is paranoia a symptom of ADHD ? any advice would help ,
It Isn't You ..... Cheyanne
Submitted by kellyj on
This behavior I have become somewhat familiar with? ( me being ADHD ) As we speak, my undiagnosed ADHD wife is leaving and moving out which I have a lot of mixed emotions about yet, I know it's best for all concerned. Coming to terms with this myself, but with me....a different attachment issue in my past than the one that I now recognize.....these are what I'm calling "Freudian moments" since these Fruedian slips....seem to emerge from them which is what I never really miss anymore.
My mixed emotions right now come from what I have really come to face as something I have yet made any decisions about but it is a very real concern. What brought about this complete seperation was when I finally had had enough, and told my wife she neeSds to do something about her issues or leave which she had been threatening to do off and on like this in a continuous cycle of either ....on....or ....off. Pushing me to come closer...then pushing me away in rejection every time I tried to get near her or to become more intimate than she could deal with ...over and over.
Your comments about your H I could reiterate in my own way about her since she is a good decent person and deep down she has many great qualities. To the point, that now that I see the time clock ticking away and she is preparing to move out this coming Sunday....I am continuing to treat her as I have ( for the most part ) as the person that I see she is.....not the person she becomes during these moments like you are saying? This is a very difficult thing to do since I do Love her deeply ( as the person she is ) and I care about her very much? I simply don't care for the person she becomes and I know full well what that would take....for her to become that person she wants to be but can't...since she hasn't done the work to get there? It is very deceptive in that when things are good.....they are good....but when they are bad.....they can be very bad indeed?
Any way....I told her that the reason why I want her to go....is because, I do not want to do this to her anymore? I don't want to hurt her or do anything to her to make her feel the way she does...but I do know, that I'm not the one making her feel anything, she is basically doing this to herself no matter what she says to the contrary? I know this.....but I can do nothing to help her and that she would have to do by herself which is in part....a similar situation that it sounds that you are in? On one hand that is..
On the other hand, I know my ADHD is causing a lot or it....if not all of what she is reacting to. To the best of my ability....I cannot completely "stop" having ADHD but I am fully aware of this and I don't blame anyone from feeling the way they feel when they hit up against my symptoms that is the cause for these reactions. What I do not do....is shut her out, close her off and try and get away from her completely....but I have to shield myself from her when she gets that way, since it really is damaging to ( me ) as it is for you too? I have never stopped....trying to connect with her and I have never shut her out and just "stopped" trying. Trying...is all I can do....but I have never stopped showing up and reinforcing my commitment as well as giving her the reassurance that I will always be there for her no matter what? That's really the best I can do.....is just keep on showing up, and letting her know I'm there? This is what I have done right....and I have never stopped letting her know? I've gotten pretty good, at getting back on the horse, each time it throws me off? I am definitely not a quitter.....quitting ain't my cup of tea?
The Freudian moment came just yesterday....as I sat and was having a moment to reflect on the time left before she leaves once and for all feeling a little sad? This when I said ( amongst others things along these lines in a positive way to show her how I feel? As I said "You know, I'm really going to miss you...in more ways than one?" This was a gesture and me expressing how I really felt and her reply was not exactly what I would have expected but not really any surprise none the less?
Her reply was "I'm going to miss, me too" Like huh? "What does that mean? ( saying this nicely with a genuine curiosity? The Freudian moment I was talking about and wanting to know what she meant? )
And she started to tear up and said...."I'm going through a lot of emotions right now...and I'm thinking I've failed again. I am never going to get what I want.....I keep trying and can never get there and I know it will happen again"
Ironically.....this is exactly how I am feeling as well....almost word for word I could say the same thing? But there is definitely a difference in how my wife sees this..and how I see this? I feel this way.,...because I would never want to put anyone through what I can see that they go through....just to be with me....and I'm not sure I could do that to anyone...especially someone I Love and care about?
And as she was saying "I'm going to miss, me" in response to "I'm going to miss you" on my end ( which was wierd?? yes...weird?? ) She...is saying the same thing, but saying it from the perspective that she keeps failing and she can't get there and she can't ever seem to make it work..and everyone just quits and leaves her and no one gives her what she needs or wants?
So if you can see the difference here and the difference in the "same feelings for the same reasons".....I see why....this is happening and I see my part to play? And because of it.....I would never want to do that to anyone which is why I am feeling the same as she does? I may not ever.....attempt this again, because I would never want that on my head knowing what I know? Not to my worst enemy would I want that to happen and I never want to hurt anyone ever again? That would by my reasoning...for being alone and staying that way?
My wife....who is "avoidant"....and avoids doing anything or is actually "trying".( as she beleives ) ....she wil most likely repeat this again....not because she is afraid of hurting anyone else....but because she is afraid of getting hurt herself? As she teared up and told me this.....it was clear to me of just what the problem is.....the "what" ...not "who" ...is actually to blame.
J
Hi Cheyanne,
Submitted by BigSurprise on
Hi Cheyanne,
What you're describing can be caused by many things. It's well-established that ADHD-ers have poor control over emotions, and I've heard about them isolating from time to time to "find themselves" or "think things through". If he reacts impulsively and feels "nagged" by your reaction, this may exacerbate his frustration and go spiral. But, nevertheless, his behavior seems quite extreme.
It may be a result of some learnt/self-taught behavior, some secondary defense mechanism, or some co-morbid symptom.
The way you describe it, I realize it must be very hard on you. You need to remember it's also about your happiness and it's hard to be happy with such things happening over and over.
You're also defending him, which smells of co-dependency. It's really to fall into this pattern when the person you're dealing with behaves like two different people. Like "yes, he beats me, but he can be so charming when he wants", or "yes, he's a monster when he drinks, but he's always so loving when he doesn't, and he always says how sorry he is". So, you end up loving the good guy, who brings flowers, and hating the bad, who is hurting you. It's tempting to start attributing the good qualities you see in him to the "dark side". It's the Stockholm syndrome. But... he's actually one person, and the person who seems to be hurting you, maybe willingly, maybe not, who knows. If the dark side is ADHD or any other condition, it might not be his fault he's behaving like that, but the impact this has on you is still the same, regardless.
Speaking from experience... Whatever you decide, remember it's about you. About you being safe, about you feeling good, about you having your needs fulfilled. Otherwise, you're going to suffer for both of you. And there's only so much pain one can take.
Wish you well.
Excellant Insight........Big
Submitted by kellyj on
Yes, it is like Stockholm syndrome but even more insidious and much less dramatic as "beating you physically" or becoming a raging out of control drunk? These are the most obvious and extreme samples of something that everyone recognizes as completely unacceptable. The to the point, that if you called the police, they would come an arrest a person like this. But this is not on that level. It is much less obvious and much harder to rationalize as something "terrible" or anything "horribly wrong". As a "one time incident", you can easily brush these off and say "yes.....but he a good person the rest of the time, but he just does these things when he gets: ( fill in blank here ). Yes indeed, this is a very slow and insidious process of dismantling you ability to see thing the way they really are?
Even now, as I said....I still have these mixed emotions and they tug at your heartstrings since you want it to be otherwise? Otherwise, you wouldn't have these ambivalent feelings and trying to put these behaviors in their proper place and know what you are seeing ( and how to feel about them ) And most definitely, he is just one person and is not a split personality but there definitely is a "split" in the sense that these two different behaviors do show themselves as the stereo typical "Jeckal and Hyde"
I revisited this attachment thing again just to refresh myself and remind myself of my own tendencies along these lines which I have had to work hard to get past and resolve this within myself? This was the conditioned response or "counter part" to this type of person which I more than just a little familiar with? I think like you said to Cheyanne.....that it's easier possibly to see this behavior as really horrible....if that person were to come and beat you to keep you in line? When I say "beat you" in this respect, I am referring to physcially being "struck" with a hand......"slapped" or back handed.....or "kicked" as if you were a dog who just misbehaved and your are trying to 'teach them a lesson" In the same way as you would with a dog....this would definitely fall into the category or "behavior modification" or "obedience training" as it were? And in this case, ....you are the dog in other words because you are the one being "trained".
I mentioned these "Freudian Moments" and these "sound bites" or Freudian slips...where this attitude or even the 'thinking"...shows itself which is why I tend not to miss them very often anymore? And this is really it when you get right down to it. These moments are nothing like being physically beaten or anything of that nature? In fact, for a guy especially.....this would land you in jail and from the earliest beginnings growing up, I cannot imagine not being taught or told that you never hit girls as a little boy? And of course, no one would argue this even then since most ( even if not all ) little boys can usually over power a little girl even if at that age many little girls can hold their own against a boy but that's not the point. The point is, that little boys ( not uncommonly ) get into play ground fights or spats and hit and wrestle as a means to resolve things? I think more in the past, that this was somewhat acceptable with that "boys will be boys" attitude to go with it? Even encouraged as a sign of strength and "man-ly-ness" to be able to "take care of yourself" if needed and not be a sissy? And of course, this gets arranged by the strongest to the weakest and many times where "bullying" comes from?
Ironically, ( and I known a few ) the biggest and strongest guys do not end up being Bully's themselves? Some do....but in my experience, most don't and one of my very best friends growing up was this way himself? He was the "biggest kid" in his class at school..and he was really quite benevolent and non violent? He didn't need to "fight" for power......he was the top of the food chain...and everyone respected that? They respected that if they were to get into with it him, they would almost assuredly get beat up? I mean, it doesn't take a genius to understand this concept even as a kid?
No one is going to walk up to "Mr T"....and call him a pussy to his face? :LOL In fact ( as I just recalled ) from a old comedy movie...the way you can tell an insane person....if they walk into a biker bar and yell out....."all you pussy bikers suck!" LOL There you go....the perfect example of what is obvious to everyone? No one does not understand this as means to tell you what is "wrong " or "right" and what you shouldn't do in terms of "hitting" or "beating" someone physically? And who you might avoid calling names or getting all up in their face and trying to pick or start a fight? I mean....this is what yelling out "all you pussy bikers suck" would be doing in a bar full of Hells Angels if you can picture this? That would be called....."calling someone out"...and "picking a fight" with them? On purpose...with that intention in mind?
And I have actually personally witnessed this in a similar but not quite so dramatic a situation....with a large contingency of "drunk guys" at a bachelor party...and this one individual took offense at something just like this, and a huge fight erupted and everyone was pulling the combatants off each other and the whole party stopped ( al the fun and enjoyment ) due to this one person who could not leave well enough alone? And very much like two kids at the play ground, the group sent these two to separate parts of the house to calm everything down?
The respondent ( not the instigator ) was pretty fired up at this person since ( as gthe entire party was witness to it )...he really didn't do anything to this "other fellow" directly speaking? He was just dunk and having fun and accidently knocked into some lamp or something and the lamp hit this fellow but didn't hurt anything or any one ? It was just one of those drunken mishaps that most would see as just that? As everyone saw ( out of 30 or more guys ) except this one guy...he took exception to this..and felt compelled to call this guy out and actually start the fight over nothing? He didn't actually hit the other guy...but he just wouldn't leave well enough alone and got all self righteous and took it on himself to reprimand this other guy and become the "boy scout" of the party ( voluntarily and unsolicited ) until this other guy who was already drunk...went after him due to his "mouth" and the things he was saying? Picture a Hockey game...where suddenly the two players are tearing their gear off and going at each other in the middle of the ice over some infraction or foul..and no one was backing down?
But here's what I wanted to get to and the most important part of this story? This guy...( the instigator ) I knew pretty well as he was the roommate at the time, of the my friend the 'big guy" I was talking about? And the other guy and most of the guys there, I knew as well and everyone knew everyone there....except this guy who actually lived there but was just the roommate not the owner of the place which was my friend I mentioned. And this was not the biggest or the strongest guy you could imagine but it was more his inability to take the slightest offense or being "hurt" or feel disrespected..and he had quite an entitled "little shit" attitude....kind of like the character in the movie The Green Mile.....and this "Percy" character played by the actor Doug Hutchins if you've ever seen the movie? This is the perfect example of that kind of person in real life in that he felt kind of "all powerful" since it was "his house"..and no one was going to get away with disrespecting him...if he had anything to say about it? But the way he went about "wielding his power" was to stand behind some kind of protection as a means to then throw "spit balls" and not fear retaliation and use some kind of leverage against you...instead of just manning up and just letting these petty offense slide? Just passing it off as just exactly what it was? Just a drunk guy...having fun and getting rambunctious at a bachelor party full of guys who happened to knock a lamp over but what do you expect? And exactly in that way.....no one expected under those circumstances...that this might happen? No big surprise and no offense taken?
The "bigger person" would turn and say...."no worries....watch you step" as means to say....."your getting drunk and your knocking into things and me..and while you're at it...please be careful you might hurt yourself". And just like Percy. or in Percy like form in the movie....what happened was this: The entire party stopped to break these guys up....and my friend took his roommate upstairs to calm him down while the rest of the guys stayed down stairs and got this other guy calmed down as well? It took only a minute or two to calm the respondent down..and someone shoved a drink in his hand....and the party went right back to raging full bore like nothing had ever happened. My friend came down stairs and said ( Percy ) was okay and he be back down in a bit after he calmed down some thinking all was well and all was forgiven and everything was fine? Suddenly....here's Percy only coming half way down the stairs..and he starts yelling at the other guy again....can't leave well enough alone? And ue screaming thins like "this is my house" ( which is wasn't actually ) "and you can't get away with that ...I have rights here you know. get out of my house!!!!" and he was almost more upset now....than before?
Picture.....30 guys who are drunk and partying along...and they all stop and look at this guy standing up above them in the stairs barking at "their friend" who we all had just gotten calmed down and he was perfectly fine...no problem no hard feelings I as he was prepared to say to Percy..and admitted he got a little sloppy and out of hand ). No one there knew Percy....except myself and my friend since he was just the new roommate and was not in the inner circle of friends there since the "man of honor" or groom, was part of the same circle of friends that I knew as well since they were my friends long standing friends.,......and Percy was this new guy?
What happened was.....guy X the original respondent went straight after this guy after a few choice insults.and now the entire party of guys are jumping into stop him...but now the entire Party ( all 30 of them including me ) are yelling at Percy and wanting to kill him!! LOL Just like that movie line in terms of "how do you know someone is insane"....."yell....all you pussy bikers suck". This was the real life equivalent to this real life situation....and to the point...the party disbanded and the entire party left...or else everyone was going to kill this guy....and he was not leaving. LOL Absolutely true story....I couldn't have made that one up...it ws sooooo ridiculous? All because someone ( at a bachelor party no less ) got a little tipsy and accidently knocked a lamp over that bumped into Percy? The fact was....Percy, should have been there.....if such a thing was a problem for him? If Percy couldn't handle the heat in the kitchen.....Percy shouldn't have been there in the first place?
Which ironically in the movie......they put a straight jacket on him.and locked him in a padded room and threatened him with sanctions if he said anything to what ( all the other guards ) wer up to? All in an effort to stop him, or prevent him from ruining what they were doing? And if you recall....Percy wanted to electrocute someone before he left to go get a better job, or he stomped on "Mr Jangles" the mouse.....just to be a mean little shit and torment the death row inmates just for sport of fun? Yet he posed himself...as this self righteous "punisher" to all those evil doers? And of course....'throwing people under the bus" and leveraging them against their will of to get into a position of having "something on them" so he could get away with it...without fear of retaliation. In that kind of....."I'll tell on you....."tattle tale"....kind of "little shit" kind of way? You could call this person a "snitch"....or "sell out" either way? And of course in real life say in Prison ( in an extreme example ) this is the lowest or worst offense you could possibly do in that world which means you would get killed for doing that? Even in prison with convicts and the law of the jungle.....the snitch or the sell out....is looked upon with contempt and "needs to be made example of ..and needs to be taught a lesson"
This is what I really wanted to get down to here since this applies directly to me? If you look at the dynamic and you look at these characters....it;s not hard to understand how everyone feels here and why? it is almost an inherent thing...that needs no explanation...and you can see easily.....( even if not justified by anyone involved...that is the two parties ) why someone would want to attack on or the other....the who done it..and who started it and why? When someone takes unfair advantage of another person...and uses their (leverage or stronger power or strength ) to gain advantage or to "black mail" you covertly into modifying your own behavior though some kind of manipulative or coercive tactic...to either punish you or to get you to do something they want ( to bend or comply to their will )....it doesn't have to be some big strong person picking on the little one....to call that person a bully? Even of these tactics to gain control and to control the situation...or "take control away" as a means to do what "they want"......just like Percy at the bachelor party......the party stopped and disbanded....because "it's my house and I want you to leave!!!". What he really wanted was just this one guy to leave...because he was embarrassed to come back down stairs and face this guy for such a petty offense? And now....he is sitting upstairs all by his lonesome.....with a full blown party going on down stairs and there he sits stewing? I knew this guy and not very long after....my friend asked him to leave...since he kept doing things like this? He had a knack...for pissing people off and no one liked him after a while since he always seemed to create some problem every where he went just like at this party.....he was sooo sensitive to the slightest offense that he over reacted and caused these situations?
He was a nice enough guy and there really was no major issues......except he was just simply petty, vindictive and kind of a little shit at times? Kind of like...."well, if I'm not having fun....then neither should you" And in fact...he always seemed to take the "low road"...instead of 'taking the high road" and facing the music? In fact....he just moved out one day...and left my friend unpaid for a months rent saying some Bullshit how he was owed something that was never agreed upon up front? That was kind of the final "pay back"...for giving him the "boot" and telling him he had to leave?
This is so much the same kind of pattern and in respect...the same "type" of person who seems to do this? That "dark side" you mentioned is really true and I've had to wrestle with that myself to place it in myself? But even as I was retelling the story of Percy.....I don't really fit that "type" at all? I was a little ( actually a lot ) more obvious than that in my younger days as a kid growing up? That kind of dark humor is where my came out...and with that, some pretty passive aggressive "practical joking"...which is how I acted it out? I definitely acted out and I definitely had my own "style" in doing it.....but mostly.....it was received with some mixed emotions since "humor" always seemed to be present? That does not not it any better per se....but without that vindictive relatiation, it was not overtly directed at anyone per se? It was more opportunistic and random "stirring up the pot" or..."creating mischief"....."creating some excitement" or action...as it were...and taking it out on random victims without any real intention of hurting as much as ambushing people and laying in wait more like "Trick or Treat" 360 days a years? Dark humor does exists as a genre and I'm not even drawn to it so much at this time....but that whole "Jack Ass"...."Punking thing",....could definitely be put into this category and I definitely had that steak in me when I was growing up and in my teen age years for sure? That completely stopped after that time early since it had already worn out its welcome and I did piss a number of people off during the process? No matter what in that kind of scenario....you have a perpetrator and a victim....so getting your jollys that way....is pretty devious and dark you might say? It is a conscious act with intention and everyone is aware of it...even if you are not around when the trap is sprung?
But I also wanted to point our something here in relation to where I see that came from? It came from being on the receiving end of someone just like we are talking about? It is the act....or in essence...reinacting....the need to "teach that person a lesson" but to the point in saying this to understand it better......( just for understanding where it comes from and why ). As was, in the group of 30 guys at the party.....the feelings of all those guest including the respondent....were unanimous and easy to see why that happened? Everyone there....wanted to "teach this guy a lesson" in the worst of way?" Not one person at that party...did not want to take this guy down and pummle him silly...which is that need to "get even" or to "hit back" or "retaliate" for being so petty and ridiculous and in a sense......"smack them upside the head"...because they appear to not be getting it? But that was just "one event" and just one time....although quite obvious who was kind of in the wrong there for sure? This guy...could not be the bigger person...either in the "offense" as it was.....and then later....in just letting it go and simply not leaving well enough alone? When you are confronted with someone who just "won't" or "can't" leave well enough alone...and they just have toi do something to cause some kind of trouble of conflict since they just can't get over it for what ever reason.....they are difintely.....absolutely...."telling you something"....or "sending some kind of message to you"....but without saying what that is? It is very passive aggressive..and it can get very "dark".....don't to the more saddistic and means spirited.....like Percy in the move the Green Mile? Percy's charactor is the best one I can come up with....that you get this feeling there is more too it...more than just hitting back because your angry or upset? This si someone....who will go out of their way....to stomp on "Mr Jangles" the mouse.....just to torment or do the worst thing you could do to someone "very specificaly"...because they like it and they enjoy it? Bottom line...."they enjoy huring people"....it gets them off..and they like it?
I just wanted to make the distinction here between on thing or the other? Stirring up the pot or creating stimulating moments like passive aggressive acting out in terms of practical jokes is one thing? No one gets hurt... but it does serve to make someone the butt of your joke? It can get means even if its funny.....but that is not exactly the intention with it even if that is on the dark side of this to show the difference? Getting off on hurting and manipulating and being this Percy character....is a whole different ball game? Being mean and nasty and doing anything or the worst thing just to hurt someone to make you feel more powerful or to control others is actually Bullying? Whether by leverage, manipulation, black mail or direct intimidation? There is nothing funny about that and there is no humor involved? That is not a practical joke.....that is with a desire to hurt in a vindictive kind of way?
The results even without awareness of it ...is no different than "obedience training " for a dog? This is a person who is taking a position of power over you..and trying to get there will or what they want in the more convert style which can be very sublte and on going which does exactly what it does? it trains you to be "obedient".....just like a dog? That ws kind of an unmistakable feeling which really hit upon that nerve.....but you really have to see this over enough time ( not just one party ) to see how insidious it really is?
Anytime...someone is using your "weakness" again you.....that is cause for concern since that is what I'm calling a Bully...not matter which method or means they use and it can be used by a woman against a man....in the same way....just different methods...but the effect on the target victim...is one in the same? It is a very ambivalent feeling when you go "how could they do that to me? They are such a nice person or good guy the rest of the time?"
Well, they are that nice person the rest of the time...and they are Bully part time ( as needed to keep you in line)....and one in the same person? It definitely is not two people doing this which is why it's so hard to resolve in your mind?
Speaking from experience... Whatever you decide, remember it's about you. About you being safe, about you feeling good, about you having your needs fulfilled. Yes, I agree......you need to excape this ( not necessarily leave unless it reaches that point...., and find these things for yourself, as I did growing up and where I experienced this first hand and got my "obedience training" from. It is indisidious and is not always easy to tell, when the 'boiling frog effect it taking place" before you realized when it's already too late....that you are alreayed boiled before you know it.
All of this is really good stuff, Thanks for posting this Big, I think it is right on the money and something to look out ofr and keep in mind. It's simply not something your expect which why it so hard to place and understand what you are experiencing since it;'s so out of wack and deceiving. Only adding in her.....anger is appropriate when this is happening to you....but the urge or need to "teach them a lesson" is just fullfilling the very thing that is being imposed on to you? The last thing you want to do...is to do the same thing back which just perpetuates the cycle.....it solves nothing at the end of the day othe than making you feel good possibly in the moment....you will regret it if you cave in and join them in a tit for tat kind of way. Speaking from my own experience with this and learning why you don't want to do this yourself. it serves no good or no real purpose and only makes you feel worse which is all it's good for.
J
J, thanks for your thought
Submitted by Chevron on
I think what you wrote about bullying being a campaign of obedience training is spot on. And all the rest you wrote in that post.
You got some great advice from Big and J
Submitted by c ur self on
(I asked him to pass me a cigarette just as I was getting out of the shower and he refused ,despite having it right, beside him. I asked why and he stormed out. I followed him and asked again and was told to Drop it , let it go. Baffled I was asking Why not though , whats the problem ? He then kept telling me to shut up ,that I was starting a fight over a stupid cigarette.)
This statement is a common type of an occurrence, when dealing w/ this type mind....You asking Why? and getting hammered about asking the question....He lives in a mind that is incapable of answering Why?....Because the truth; the answer to "Why" is so painful he wouldn't be able to stand it, even if he knew it.....
So what you get when you ask "why"....Will all ways be fight or flight...or I don't like that facial expression...or your tone is unacceptable....Or just name calling, family bashing, and anger....And then like you said w/ him, abandonment.....
Now the answer for you, me, and every other person who lives w/ a person who is locked in a mind incapable of self-awareness is the same....Never ask "Why" to this type mind, one that will only take great offense for being asked....Your value to him drops to almost nothing at the point you start asking Why?.....So if you would have ignored his presents....got your own cigarette then you would have been suitable to be in his presents...Or when he didn't respond to your request, if you had shown no negative emotion, and made no comment...If you had not ask why, then you may have avoided the results that left you alone.....
None of what he did has anything to do with you.....What your problem is (and mine many times) is thinking he is capable of thinking like you....You are living in an illusion that says he is capable of answering what you consider a simple question...Why?.....But for people who have no idea why their behaviors are what they are, they take great offense to being asked why....
Why would you are I follow them down the hall, talk thru doors, or make any attempt to communicate w/ a person who has went strait as an arrow to blame and a victim mind set?? Why do we do that?? Because we are in denial to their mental and psychological state?? (we refuse to SEE their inability to take ownership of their actions)....We live our life and pursue them for information and communication based on what we are capable of....So yes, the person who asks Why? to the person who is time bomb that goes off when asked Why....Is the fight starter....
We don't do that to people that have visual abnormalities....Yet we continue to do it to those who's behaviors and actions continually show those same abnormalities.....Refusal to accept...Is denial.......
It don't matter if he was ignoring you just to start a fight...Or if he was distracted w/ what ever he was doing and your original request didn't register with him until you was pushing him for why?...Or if he is was comfortable and is just that selfish, that he didn't feel like wasting his energy to fool w/ you....Or if he was intentionally ignoring you to punish you for something he didn't like that you said or did in the recent past...The reason don't matter....What matters is this kind mind isn't capable of answering Why, and will take offense for being asked, and make it your fault for asking....
It always takes two....
C
Cheyanne, how are you today?
Submitted by Chevron on
You wrote us from the middle of a situation. I hope you're all right. Welcome to the site.
You've gotten some good thought from C, BigSurprise and J, all of whom are men. C and Big are spouses of people with ADHD, and J has ADHD, so you've gotten some thought about both questions from both angles. My spouse has ADHD, I don't. I agree with a lot of what of what's been written.
I think it's a mistake to think that the sudden blasts of anger can be "fixed" by you accepting his ADHD. Your acceptance of and knowledge of anything will not be the magic that "makes" him not be angry. The anger comes from inside him, you don't "angry" him. I agree very much that another person's physical actions or words can be the trigger that sets off someone's intial break out of response, but he certainly keeps it going, and he is the one who uses his own anger for what he wants to be using it for...even if his uses of it are harmful to himself. He owns his anger. So please, in the middle of your situation, hang on and dont be gaslighted on the anger itself. It's his anger. No one can "angry" another person. As you say, you've been walking on eggshells, not knowing what can set him off, because he flies off the handle irregularly, and at things that you don't react to with anger, and don't expect people to go ballistic about. So you've been trying not to set him off. No matter what you're doing at the moment to keep the peace, don't wear in your heart what he's claiming, which is that YOU "made" him angry. He generates his own anger. This is true of every human on the planet, young and old.
You asked:
Is it normal for people with ADHD to fly off the handle to easily? Hes had years of counselling in treatment centers for drugs and looks down on most councilors and professionals. apparently its all my fault for keeping on nagging ( asking whats gone wrong )and forcing him into what he calls an ADHD rant. Hes blocked me online & phone now and I've no way to contact him .I'm serious baffled and no idea if I want a future ith him.Is he just being nasty or is he genuinely not able to control this anger. Is paranoia a symptom of ADHD ? any advice would help ,
Here's an answer to your first question, from Melissa Orlov, in 2015
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/may-i-have-your-attention/201506/em...
If her discussion tells you some things new to you and you want to learn more, or hear it again from another professional, look up Russell Barkley and "emotional lability" on Youtube.
One last thing from me, something I just wondered about in passing as I read your description of your husband over time. Noting that you described his life as including being a recovering chronic addict having been through a spell of using weed daily recently, but who now is a month sober from that and going to the gym, pouring a lot of intense focus into bodybuilding....I wondered in passing about anabolic stereoids. Is he taking them to bodybuild? I know nothing directly about their impact on the body, but have been told by someone who has bodybuilt for decades, who does it without stereoids, that yes, indeed he's seen builders who take stereoids go into 'roid rage. I'm not saying that your husband is under the effect of that, I'm just asking.
Even for someone with ADHD who flies off the handle, as Melissa Orlov says, with an anger response that doesn't fit the stimulus, it goes way beyond it, what you described your husband doing seems to be a 'way longer and bigger reaction than I've seen at home, when my husband blows up over what I hadn't even noticed or what seems to me to be ordinary. My husband doesn't work himself into such a big state that he runs off away. That last could be your husband trying to control himself, by the way, not what he's telling you (that you caused his anger).
I do very much agree with the advice that you've been given that even though you think your opening interaction is non hostile and normal (I might well, too, if I were there), in a nutshell, "don't poke the bear." I learned the hard way myself that when my husband was moving into fast-flash anger about ANYthing, it would never ever improve the situation for me to say much, stand up for myself, ask questions of any kind (as C discussed), and yes I so feel for you, that I've been caught in those moments in which I was damned if I was silent, damned if I spoke, damned if I moved, damned if I didn't move. Just don't think that your speech or action is what's needed to calm him down, if he's rounded the curve and is moving like a locomotive into his blow out. It won't help. Please read C.
Your husband is your husband; mine is mine. They're two different men. If I were in your situation, the one you were in when you wrote to us (I do want to know how you are now Cheyanne, please let us know; we want to help because we hope you're OK), having learned in my own relation that explaining, talking, arguing, and acting out myself, when my hub is in fast flash anger does no good at all....I'd probably grit my teeth and tolerate his blocking me and shutting off his phone, and running away, and wait it out. Among other things, so that he could figure out his own way to cross the distance and silence that he created, or if he couldnt figure out how to do that, at least live with himself and the consequences for himself of the actions he had taken (breaking communication and creating physical separation).
He needs to live his consequences, and make his way back, if he can do that. That won't fix anything permanently, but like Big said, being in a codependent situation with someone who sees himself as a victim (who is "attacking from the victim position") won't get YOU any peace of mind.
Goodness, I've written something too long, if you're still in that situation full of sadness and so on. To answer your question, read Melissa Orlov's article. I reread it and it seems like it has some direct information for you. And let us know how you are.
Hugs,
Chevron
Understanding
Submitted by Cheyanne on
hi all ,
Thanks so much for your fast and honest replies.Hearing from so many angles really put into perspective whats going on. The examples of the obedience training/ bullying made perfect sense and the anger that asking why,why ,why brings and knowing there is no correct reaction.Whatever i do or say will aggravate him when hes like that. Hes still gone and likely to stay that way for up to a month now with no contact whatsoever. I usually spend that time pining for him , worrying if hes ok or missing him but this time I'll try work at planning a life without him .If it was physical abuse/ bullying (like the Percy character) I'd advise someone to leave so I best take that advice myself.Maybe it is a case of codependency and i know the only solution is to leave.
Hopefully he will get help or treatment or maybe the 12 steps will help but I have to be absent for that .I can't spend anymore time on this rollercoaster , I'm exhausted. Constantly hearing statements when hes angry has left residual low self esteem .Stuff like "I'm better off without you,your dragging me down,I'm just acting like i love you,I've tried and I cant , I can't stand having sex/sleeping with you,your family is toxic and I won't be held back by your likeness to them" .All of that has stayed in my head,repeated often enough to where I wonder if thats how he really feels inside and the ADHD rant gives permission for it to escape verbally.
If he does get back in contact I'll calmly and kindly explain I don't want to be involved with him anymore .This is huge for me , hes so much a part of my life and future,my kids love him .As scary as life without him seems , I do have good supportive friends,a good job and hobbies. I just feel used and naive. I've been trying to cope with this for so long not knowing how impossible a task it was.
As much as I love him and I'm heartbroken and scared , i'll try to plan a life where hes not in it. As for the steroids , hes been on them before so I'm familiar with those rages.However hes 100% gung ho on the new NA programme and clean/sober way of life so I don't think hes using them now.Hes getting emotional support,validation and reinforcement from other members.No doubt he will spin them a tale of how my terrible nagging drove him away and for his own sanity he had to leave and they will applaud his brave exit.I can go from being the best thing since sliced bread ,perfect partner to being the antichrist in his opinion overnight.
Hes very influenced by peer group so the justifications and their cheerleading will carry him through.I read that suggested article , It helped me understand I'm fighting a losing battle hoping for change and the best option is minding myself and the kids.Hes gone back to his solo life ,and easily cuts us out without a backward glance. Again thank you all so much for the insights ,I don't feel half so alone now. Bigs hugs to you all.
Right there with you
Submitted by anteight on
cheyenne
i feel your pain. My h threw me out almost two months ago. We've been trying to work things out but after five years of the extreme anger (on both our part) and the emotional roller coaster I'm afraid I know in my heart I must let go. I know what you're saying about painting s picture to others. His ex wife and daughters are appalled that he would "allow" me to come back! It's so painful. I feel extremely shamed as this is not my first rodeo and knowing what people even those I've known for most of my life will think of me because unless you've lived this life there is NO way to make someone understand. I know I too have anger issues and it's definitely contributed but his issues are so out of control. So know that I understand your heart break and I also know that all of this shall pass. I'm praying for you. Stay strong. By the way today is our anniversary. So sad!
Reckoning
Submitted by BigSurprise on
Hi anteight,
Thanks you for that last post. It directed my attention to your previous activities on the boards and I can see you've been fighting for a long time. I'm so sorry you're going through a hard time, but, as you said, time will hopefully heal that wound. If you let it. Being in a relationship like this, new cuts appear every day. So, painful as it is, it may be for the best. Stay strong and don't let the guilt or shame stop you on the way to recovery.
About the external world, I've just recently started a topic on that: https://www.adhdmarriage.com/content/world-doesnt-get-it. And also here: https://www.adhdmarriage.com/content/effectiveness-self-creeening.
In fact, it was my first thread here. Seems like we all feel the same despair, both nons and those with ADHD. Seems like we mostly feel misunderstood, both by our partners and the rest of the world. Very lonely.
I came here looking for many things. Validation of my observations. Understanding. A glimpse of hope. A reason to keep fighting for myself or a reason to keep fighting for the relationship. Miraculously, I've found all of them, and in a very short time, too. Feels like a lifetime, though, as things have been happening really fast lately. Thanks to all of you who read, and to all of you who post, who've responded, shown kindness, compassion and apprehension, I've been able to channel all that resentment into something better, to muster what strength I have left and put it to a good use. Chevron, C, J, vabeachgal and all of you who have been so supportive, you're my heroes. :)
Anteight and Cheyanne, my current relationship is nowhere near as bad as what you're describing. But in my past there was a time when I truly hit rock bottom because of my co-dependency in another dysfunctional relationship. And I truly mean - the bottom. Looking back, it feels like I was barely human at that time, consumed with rage, guilt, humiliation and longing for something that was obviously just my fantasy. I mean, that's obvious now. Back then, it wasn't. Just like J said, insidious. Because the change is slow and gradual, it's hard to notice you're becoming something else, especially from the inside. It was a hard time and I really took a long time and lots of hard work to recover. When I came to my senses, I told myself "no more, this can never happen again".
But guess what. Found myself on that road again. Only this time I was vigilant, and although it took a long time again (too long) to realize what was happening to me, I caught the symptoms just in time to see it. The fact I had gone through this before helped a lot; I knew all the warning lights; it seems initially I just wasn't looking in that direction when they started flashing. But yeah, that slippery slope again.
It made me realize one thing: if you feel so bad, it may mean you're actually, quite literally fighting for your life. I'm not talking suicide, but situational depression can be just as efficient, only slower. Or self-medication, or whatever temporary "remedy" one may find. But there's no way to stop it, unless... well, it turns out there is. You just need to find the nearest U-turn, and not miss it while you're driving so fast toward your doom.
One way is to break the relationship immediately. Another - find a way to control your emotions (not your partner), and that's the hard way. After all those years of struggle, your strength levels have probably been depleted.
I think that's why it's so important to find someone who get what you're going through. Like a coach or a therapist who have experienced the same (got ADHD? have kids with ADHD?). And to keep away from those who might try to judge you without knowing a goddamn thing about your life. All those advisors, the demeaners, the doubters, the moralists, the judges, the saints, the side-takers and the defenders. Just fuck it. It's all irrelevant. Nobody blames a drowning person for trying to help themselves. Why are they trying to do this with victims of mental abuse? It's like telling a rape victim it's their fault. Probably something to do with the length of their skirt. And the fact that the rapist has amnesia and does not remember doing it somehow invalidates your experience. (I'm not saying ADHD-ers are bad people by nature. But their partners DO get hurt, and often in a very abusive way. Unfortunately, both spouses feel equally misunderstood, so it's like mutual rape instead of normal, consensual sex.) In a sense, you're both victims. But it's not about blaming and not about finding out who's guilty. The culprit is ADHD. Doesn't mean you have the moral obligation to live with it under one roof.
And those therapists, relying on the single, seriously out-dated book they read (or not) in the 90s, sitting there, smiling, telling you not to try to be smarter than them, to leave their job to them, and meddling in your life, even though they don't know shit about it. This I actually don't get. Many of them know the issue exists, but even though you keep telling them over and over "You're making things worse. Please, read a book or something. Read anything, before you start messing up my life even more. I'm just doing my homework, why can't you?" - it's like they don't feel any inclination to find out more about the problem. Why? No, but really... Why? It's an opportunity to broaden your knowledge AND help people, and it seems like they really don't care? Isn't it why they become therapists in the first place? And now they won't give credit to a single word you say, even though they never bothered to try a proper diagnosis?
Screw them. It's your life. Nobody can force you to sacrifice yourself just to make them feel whatever they feel if you do. And, most likely, they won't feel anything. Sure, they'll criticize you all right, when they feel like it, but don't count they'll notice your sacrifice. They haven't noticed so far, have they? So, what's more important? I'd say your life.
And his ex wife? Why is she an ex wife? Hard to imagine she hadn't noticed anything while they were married. And if she didn't, that's even more bizarre - why the divorce?
Nah, you can't allow anyone to tell you what to do when it's essentially about your well-being. They don't have to live with it. You do. And it's your right to decide when you're done trying. Even without their judgment, you probably feel guilty as hell, and you've probably paid a very high price just for loving someone wha was essentially abusing you, even if it wasn't their intention. Nobody has the right to judge you, and probably wouldn't if they were in the same situation. But they aren't so they don't know, and probably will never know. Good for them. God bless. Just keep out of my business.
And, if you decide you want to try harder, or try different, it's also your choice, and yours alone. That's what I'm doing right now, and, since my recent change of attitude, it's been mildly successful. But I wouldn't be able to do it without help - my good friends, this board, and a really great ADHD coach I think I've finally found. Whether you stay or leave, you still need supportive people around you, because neither is easy. I'd say it's time to focus on those people and just ignore the rest.
Anteight and Cheyanne, you are not alone. There are people who know what you feel.
As you say, if he thinks that...
Submitted by Chevron on
These are awful things to say.
Stuff like "I'm better off without you,your dragging me down,I'm just acting like i love you,I've tried and I cant , I can't stand having sex/sleeping with you,your family is toxic and I won't be held back by your likeness to them" .All of that has stayed in my head,repeated often enough to where I wonder if thats how he really feels inside and the ADHD rant gives permission for it to escape verbally.
Cheyanne. You two arent married. If he's telling the truth that these are his judgements of you, he can end the relation with you. He's not bound to you legally or religiously, and I gather from the way you talk about them, the children in the household arent his children. But he hasnt broken off definitively with you. So there's something going on in him something like one of the dynamics that J was naming going on, he needs to dump his crummy insides on someone nearby.
Like Overwhelmed Wife said, ADHD doesnt explain that.
This isn't just ADHD
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
This is more serious than ADHD. He may have ADHD, but he also likely has a mental illness. It will get worse much worse.
RUN