Growing up, I was taught to work hard, give to others and expect nothing in return. Having faulty, meaning any, expectations on others was shameful. Also, I was taught it was wrong to sacrifice for others. Becoming bitter was my responsibility to avoid, since it made a person unattractive.
Come to think of it, my upbringing was full of contradictory rules for how to be a person or a woman.
When I sought emotional support as a child and as a young adult and also as an adult, response was equally confusing. They would sometimes outright deny my experiences and invalidate emotions. They would mistrust my recollections of events, and my impression of other people’s intentions.
I’ve spent my life trying to excessively explain myself to them in hopes of being understood and validated. Mostly they were supportive. But every so often their criticism would come out, unexpected, impossible to avoid.
And then there was the ADD marriage, the craziest mind destabilization I’ve ever experienced. They couldn’t relate to that, so gave many comments about how I disappointed them. Like that I’d become such a perfectionist all of a sudden. Or that I was unreasonably critical of other people. Or that I spoke about myself needing things, when a person is supposed to give with no expectation of receiving. This all while my then husband was deep in depression and pathological passivity, I was suffering burnout, repetitive RSD episodes from husband, had three children and demanding work, barely functioning. But they expressed little concern.
I think now, when I’ve temporarily paused initiatives with the family, things are becoming more clear.
They’ve been terrible. I’m sorry, but that’s the truth. They’ve silently put a lot of expectations on me (like to meet their needs without prompting, like taking all initiatives, like doing everything on their terms and the way they prefer) but denying me a right to ask decency in interactions with people in general. Not to mention in that wildly unequal marriage. They didn’t show me I needed to set boundaries in life. Rather they implied I should endure whatever came my way. To protect career, social standing, whatever seemed more important to them than my wellbeing.
Am feeling now those former caregivers of mine are practically blind to anything beyond their own experiences, emotionally immature, dysfunctional, rigid or a combination of these things. And I’m finding it hard to do anything in the relationship with them.
I feel my worth is less than everybody else’s (including ex husband) in their eyes. They deny this completely, they say they love me, and I believe it. But there it is. I feel like shit around them. At this point so weary and helpless I mostly just avoid them.
Why does one accept these things? Why didn’t I overthrow this dynamic decades ago?
Perhaps because family of origin was the most stable social network I had when husband was ill and we were socially cut off for a decade and a half.
Does anybody else share a similar experience with family of origin in combination with a destructive ADHD marriage? How did you handle it?
Comments
Hypervigilant to their disapproval
Can’t spend time with them anymore without being apprehensive to signs of dismissal or disapproval. I expect them to invalidate me.
Don’t know what to do.
almost kinship
Our experiences are so similar, the parallels almost freak me out.
I have similar problems with my parents. Boundaries are an issue. Mockery is an issue. Invalidating feelings and experiences is an issue. I am expected to go the extra mile for others, I often get laughed at, and my experiences minimised. I have never told them about the worst things that have happened in my life, because I know in that instant it would become about their feelings about what had happened. I am low key about the best things, too, because somehow they manage to turn my achievements into dust and they blow away.
Going through this separation, they're at times angry and scolding and outraged at me for having married the lazy, selfish, rude, inconsiderate, exploitative and arrogant ex in the first place, as if it wasn't obvious why I did. They'd trained me that being treated like that was what love was.
Just last night I was talking with my dad about my son's difficulties with his father, and I started to cry; I couldn't help it. What I got from Dad was a cold look. No comforting, no consoling, no hug. Just Dad saying it wasn't about me, it was about the boy, and then he started taking offence at something I'd said, and it became a managing-Dad's-feelings-moment, rather than a dealing-with-mine-as-a-struggling-mum. BUT I know they love me, and I know they mean well, and they can be incredibly kind and generous. I know that they too are struggling with generational harm, passed on from difficult parents of their own. I am just glad, I'm more than glad, that I'm breaking the cycle.
In short, I think particular kinds of families of origin shape us in certain ways that make us prone to falling into, and struggling on with, other difficult relationships - along the lines of Freud's Repetition Compulsion. We are taught what love looks like by people who don't actually know, and we go and find something that looks like that.
I think I'm managing it better, my relationship with my parents, because they're very old. I know time is ticking. I'm able to give them grace. And there has always been kindness and generosity alongside the difficulties - they will also go the extra mile for me, just as I am expected to for, well, everyone. Dad is getting gentler as he gets older. I'm sort of accepting the f****duppedness, accepting their damagedness, not angry with them for it, because they didn't damage themselves. They didn't work on themselves either, to be fair; they certainly didn't fix themselves, they wouldn't possibly ever accept that anything might need fixing. But in the end, I honestly believe this to be generational damage, that I'm drawing now to a close, refusing to pass on, and there is something rather magical and affirming and wonderful in that. Assuming there's still a liveable planet for any grandkids I might have, I know at least that they won't have to carry what I've carried, what my parents carried, what my own kids are managing to shed and unpack.
That's how I'm dealing with it, anyway.
Wishing you peace, too.
xx
Coldness
Thanks Honestly for your reply.
That coldness in your father you describe is really unsettling. Why do they stare at us coldly when we cry? Why do they walk away, or sit silently through our crying, showing only by the depth of breathing they’re uncomfortable or annoyed?
I have such a hard time understanding this physical rigidity in front of someone’s vulnerability. It’s nothing like how I’d respond if my child cried. I even have clients cry in front of me every day, it’s not that hard to assume a soft open body language and voice to make them feel less exposed at that vulnerable time.
Call them dear. Say I’m so sorry, I see that made you sad.
Sometimes I feel entire parts of me and my world have been stripped away. No longer have any reference points in common with ex or family.
You’re strong to give grace to your elderly parents. Mine aren’t that old but have claimed for the last fifteen years I can’t complain if they hurt me because of their frailty and age.
But also
I also feel deeply ashamed about myself in this.
Like your parents, mine have always been incredibly generous, loving and kind. As long as they don’t involuntarily hurt me, and I question it, which is when things go south.
I feel it’s my responsibility to avoid this, since when it happens I can’t repair it. They don’t think it can be solved by talking, only get worse. They are not into apologizing.
So basically:
This has been hard for years, but now it’s practically impossible. I wish they’d call me sometime, that they’d just take it on themselves to keep in touch with me. But though I’ve asked for this for decades, it never happens. Like they want it all to be on me. And now I’m being neglectful for not calling.
Losing my mind over this.
As I was reading you're comments....
I can't not see all the elements of what I just went thru as well as the same patterns on my own family. I've had to go thru this, so I understand how it feels. I'm not sure why you're feeling ashamed exactly? I can tell you only how I resolved these unreasonable issues for myself. I try and break it down as you layed it out.
"Like your parents, mine have always been incredibly generous, loving and kind. As long as they don’t involuntarily hurt me, and I question it, which is when things go south."
Why does it matter if it's involuntary or not? Whatever they did, it hurt you? Your feelings are valid right ? You've already expressed shame and guilt "I feel responsible to avoid this." Why? Why do you feel guilty for feeling badly? Who's responsibility is it in the first place? Is it, the person who's feelings are hurt because their feelings have been dismissed....or the person who refuses to talk about it, stone walls, clams up, gets angry and accuses you that you done something wrong saying instead it's your fault ..for some unknown reason? Are you sure, you've done anything wrong at all? I do understand why that is at least with my X but first ...on to #6.
"But my hurt is essentially my fault, since they have a right to express themselves how they like."
No, that's simply not true. Your hurt, is not your fault but it's not they're fault either. Anymore than it's my X's fault...for doing the same thing. She was abused by her parents from neglect and from mental illness. She's has defensive, protective mechanism that signals "threat" to her when someone gets too close. The nicer and kinder I became, the more caring and loving I got, the more it pushed her away. So being nice, be supportive and kind ( building her up ) which is what you'd do if you love someone...the more she disengaged and felt threatened by it. It makes absolutely no sense but that the result of her abuse growing up.
So who's fault is that? I could blame her parents but they're both dead? I never even met them to form an opinion? It's not a matter of fault, it's just how humans get wired under those conditions and defensive mechanics get triggered.
At the same time, you and I in that case are effectively blocked from repair. And that triggered me and sets off my alarm. Because basically...being blocked from repair is not being allowed to set a boundary. And if you're avoiding it to avoid the conflict then no boundary ever gets made. The bottom line there is.....the "hurtful actions " just continue indefinitely. No modification of behavior ever gets made. And for me, that's the painful truth. There's nothing I could have done differently. I needed boundaries but wasn't allowed?
I also remember something from years ago...back to my first girlfriend when she was backing away. I remember it well in fact when I knew nothing else. My 21 years self decided even back then: "people do what they want to do, and if they don't want to, they don't do it."
If they don't call you, it's because they don't want to call you. I didn't even have to know why to figure that one out. I still think this is absolutely true. You don't even have to do anything for that to happen. Why? There are lots of reasons but the cold hard facts are exactly what I just said.
It absolutely helps me, for example, to know why. Because I'm a why person. Not knowing why drives me crazy? But I still have situations I'll never know why so I've got to stop my burning curious and just let it go.
I told my ex this exact thing at the end ..."I don't want to be anywhere where I'm not welcome or wanted." And the why there for me is simply it hurts. It hurts more to be in that situation than to be alone so I'd rather be alone.
But your feelings are valid. There's a reason you feel that way and no repair is the "why" for me. I don't feel ashamed for protecting myself and I dont feel guilty because thats not my fault. Its not their fault either. It's no one's fault. If I'm not allowed boundaries by informing the person that "hey, that really hurt my feelings" and somehow I'm at fault for that? That actually doesn't even make sense if you stop and think about?
The only responsibilities I have is to set my own boundaries and communicate that ( not avoud it ). If someone has some issue with my doing that, that's not my fault. It's not yours either....it's not anyone's fault. I mean ...I could blame God...because he made us this way. That's is....all that wiring and defensive mechanisms were built into us by him? Right.
I'm being facetious...it's no bodies fault, that includes you.
You’re right, J
It’s not anybody’s fault.
I just feel it’s mine. But then I’ve been the one to keep family together for many years. When I stop, it feels like neglect.
All my attempts at repair, and understanding, and connection, have failed.
Another relative has advised me to let them go. I don’t know how to, or to continue in any fashion. Am just so exhausted, confused and sad.
Thank you dear thinkers for your help.
Yeah, I heard that one too....
That was X's go to saying for everything which I've had to understand better. I'm not going to say she was intentionally, with forethought, telling me to "let it go" on principle or a philosophy to live by, or even how I just said it because of my tendency to always need to know why ( to unresovable "things" ) ..but in context here, to other things she'd repeatedly say things like, "your over thinking" ( ruminating ) or "stop living in the past" or any number of "incorrect" things that I was doing. I absolutely have gotten stuck in ruminating thoughts ...just grinding away in an endless loop. I absolutely have, but I also know when I'm not doing it. So when someone says "your over thinking" I can pretty much tell if I'm not or if I am ? It may seem like I'm ruminating, but actually most of the time I'm just processing and it takes some time to process everything.
So it like ( in that moment ) I'm hearing " stop processing ( instead of over thinking )"...let it go ( instead of needing an answer ...ie: needing to discuss things in an adult manner at the table ). So really "let it go" for her boiled down to a preemptive ( but very philosophically sounding ) "stop trying to analyze, process, and them coming to me for repair ie: discuss what I just did or worse, discuss anything I've done wrong or how I dud something to hurt you.
So really, "let it go" for her is like saying "can't you just dismiss it and carry on like I do...like nothing happened ? Let it go! "
That what she meant, if she realized or not. And that's not at all what I mean when I say those words. I'm saying, I have to let go off my need to know why always. Sometimes there's not an answer ....so I have it let go.
Two different meanings for the same words. And just to be clear, it's one thing when someone else tells you "you need to let it go"....and me, saying "I need to let it go because I've identified what my issue is?" RIght?
And this is somewhat unrelated but it's also an example of someone telling you "this is the problem with you that you need to address." Plus, this one really irked me, yet it's a good case in point because I finally figured it out.
My X kept telling me "you're "hangry". This is one of those moments when in my head I'm going "WTF are you even talking about ?????"
HANGRY??? Like what is that?? And she kept insisting I was hangry...only later to hear, both my Xs son and daughter in law get hangry...and have ADHD ...so therefore...all people with ADHD must get hangry too! ( flawed logic but moving right along ).
In the meantime, I'm still back at trying to figure out what this hangry is all about. Like, is that even a word? I've never heard this to describe anything of consequence or as a medical term ?? This went on for a while until I finally looked up what "hangry" is ??
It's not a word !! Or...it's a slang term ...to describe a certain segment of the population, who have certain metabolic make up, chronic high insulin levels, poor glucose regulation and reduced metabolic flexibility. There's a whole list of medically proven conditions that cause a person to get angry and hungry at the same time. And yes, people with ADHD can sometimes have this issue ...but clearly ( I'm ADHD ) clearly...not all of them including me. I've never experienced this "flipping out" because I'm hungry. Not even as a very young child. Not even once that I can ever recall? I mean...I whined if I was hungry for sure as a kid, but it wasn't the end of the world ?? For that matter....I forgot to eat lunch regularly ( still do ) and skip meals often ( still do ) and I've never had this "hangry" thing? It's like a Tic Tok word or something? ( I don't use Tic Tok but I seen it before ).
Yes, when someone starts telling me "you're hangry " because I'm actually angry at them for something ( exactly what happened ) ..I truly did go "WTF are you even saying? I have no idea what you're even talking about ??"
And...it turned out...she didn't, have any idea what she was talking about ! Plus..all the people in question are pre-diabetic and severely overweight. Unlike me. Case in point.
That whole "hangry " episode was mind numbingly frustrating because I was being accused of it.
Twighlight Zone
Honestly...you brought up something I've been unraveling in my X's family dynamic. There appears to be a total blurring of boundaries and role reversals, and the family itself is fused, where identities are unusually applied across all family members.
I looked this up and these are the definitions that described this ( IMHO ) very unhealthy and somewhat unusual family system.
Enmeshed Heirarchal Family System
Role Inversion/Parentification Dynamics
Fused Attachment Heirarchy
And
Enmeshed Family Clan
What is looked like from my outside observation.
X almost like the adult dependent of her Adult son...at the same time...her son operated as ( almost ) her husband in role only. There were pictures of him all over the house in various rooms. Nothing odd about pictures of her kid...except. He's the ONLY family member in her entire house pictured. Like a person might do with their spouse. Something is off there
She defers all decisions to her son first. She calls him first for emotional support. She calls him first for any crisis or stressful situation or big decision.
In fact, the only reason I proposed to my X was she was the one who brought up marriage to me. I mistook or misinterpreted her "test question" for an actual asking me if I wanted to marry her?
Her wording is what thru me off
"(son ) thinks we should get married"
Not
"I think we should get married"
It was difficult to decode what or who was doing the asking? I thought it sounded like my X. In hindsight, it was more of a "group" or "her son" involved in the "whether "I" should get married ? It was kind of understood by me...this is what "she" wanted. On further reflection....her son ( and daughter in law )...were not only part of the decision ( like a daughter going to her parents ) and he son and daughter in law were taking the parental role.
And the daughter in law was ( hoo boy ) was piece of work. X...reffered to her as "Matriarch" which at first, might sound like, Matriarch between the daughter and son only in their relationship. This turned out...not to be the case. Matriarch....as my X means it...is the head of the entire Clan including her..in an generational reversal in age and position.
The daughter in law ...was the gatekeeper for the entire family Clan...with that kind of Queen Bee syndrome thing. Right? Only one Queen in the hive...and she was definitely it! She lasted judgment and approval on everything.
"Me thinks, this dish is good...however, it's a bit salty, for my taste. Now, off with their heads !! Whom ever is responsible! ." ( Alice in Wondeland reference...the evil Queen ...Twighilight Zone for real !! )
Within that reference...all things must pass approval of the central scrutinizer. She most definitely was it. Head evaluater of all things!
Meanwhile...the son "acts" as the parental role for his mother ( my X ) ...where she turns to him first for every decision of any importance. Like he's her dad or husband or....who knows what? Quasi ...man of the house ( for my X ) who actually lives in another house !!
But no one gets past the Red Queen..."We thinks...we disapprove...of this Hasenpfeffer. Cook...where's my Hasenfpheffer ?? !! Bring me my Hasenpheer !!! ( Bugs Bunny character) and yes!! She's that character!!
Who's this we? You got a turd in your pocket? Oh how I wish , I could have said that ! This time I didn't (as I have in my past ) but I was thinking it just the same !! Lol
This is where my inner "Bison" kicked in. The very same Bison who does not recognize unearned authority! Especially, self appointed AND unearned authority !! ( grrrrrr ) That really rubs me wrong.
Meanwhile, back at ranch ( in the clan ). The Red Queens mom ( Queen Mother ) covertly controls the roost in silence mostly...but she's NOT ...not influencing things either. The Red Queen is in a constant power struggle with the Queen mother...on-goingin the background ) Queen mother is literally always over at the house with the grand babies and tensions are always HIGH between them but the balance of power still resides with the Red Queen. ( the Queen of hearts...off with their heads! )
Meanwhile...X's son defers to the Red Queen, X defers to her son, Queen mother yells at her husband " I'm the mother...do as I say !!" ( for real ...that's an actual quote I personally witnesses ) so on essence...there's 2 Red Queens and my X is like the dependent child somewhere in this mix. There's much f#%ked up going on....that Twighlight Zone song is always playing the background when ever I was there. It's seriously a cluster f#@k of invere relationships that no one has any idea what is up or down ?
And since I don't defer to anyone but myself ( or the creator ) ...this IS not a good place for me to be. So much weirdness and confusion it's just simply overwhelming.
I should have picked on the fact, that my first dinner date with my X....included the Red Queen and her errand boy ( Xs son ). I didn't know I was being evaluated at the time. I thought...."how nice, I'm being included into er family?"
Nope. That's not what that was. I was being "approved of"....or ...."not approved of"...like Ceasar at the games. Thumbs up...or ...thumbs down. Or as the Queen of Hearts would say....Off with is head !
You're banter is tiresome...me thinks it's time for you to go.
Me thinks...is actually "WE" thinks...and "WE" thinks is simply bizarre and unusual to me.
Who's this we? You got a turd in your pocket ?
I always say. I'm glad I'm no longer a part of this mess. Self assumed unearned authority and "I" do not agree.
Not getting the memo
Swedish, this is one of those times, I think I know....in part....what you're asking but not exactly sure how to say it ? And this even relates to something that's really been bothering me recently, in something I'm witnessing in my own family ( my nephews wife ) and its disturbing to me. This is the nephew ( son ) of the sister I've mentioned here before. So to be clear, his wife is not my blood relative, but I could not help notice some things that I deem as "off".
And again, I've met this person, but don't know her well, but she posts a lot of her "mothering" example on social media for all to see. She's very devoted and extremely invested in her childeren ( 3 ) and by all accounts, they're getting a lot of loving support. Being a "mom" is her sole mission in life. Nothing really to criticize or find fault with in any way. And the kids seem like they're happy and getting every opportunity in life as far as I can tell ?
But, just recently, she made a post about a situation she had with her kids and she said something that I really, really went...uh oh...that is NOT a good thing!
I'll show you what she said and I'll come back to talk about what I have a problem with. She has two girls and a boy ....same situation as myself, and my older sisters.
"One thing I am very intentional about as a mom is
discipling my children in their emotions and
feelings. I tell my kids often: the enemy loves to
keep you in your feelings because it delays
obedience. When we sit too long in anger, offense,
jealousy, or fear, it becomes harder to respond the
way God calls us to respond. Delayed obedience is
still disobedience. Feelings are real. They matter
But not are feeling are valid! God cares about how
we feel - but He also calls us to steward our
hearts and our words well. I teach them that we
can pause, pray, and then respond instead of react
We don't ignore emotions... we submit them to the Lord."
Before I continue. I want to make it clear, I'm not "anti-religion" or have anything against it as a foundation for living. Fact is, I was most definitely brought up in a church going family and went to Church every Sunday so, I have a basis to say a few things here on the topic and my experience. In all the time, I went to Church....I never heard rhetoric like this even once. This...does not jive, with what I heard right off the bat. And my mom never spoke to me like this, so, I have to assume, my niece-in-law got a different memo than I did...straight up.
In the post, she included a video of herself talking at the camera ...explaining how, not all feelings and emotions are valid...yet, she says they're important...but not all of them?? That just sounds crazy to me but continuing on. She went on to say....in this particular situation, one of her kids said something mean and made the other two cry. As she described it....she determined that this emotion waa "invalid" ( quote ) . And because it was "invalid" ...she used it as a teaching lesson...and basically told her daughter that her emotion was invalid. Talk about a mixed message ?!!
Further...her daughter is like 9 o 10. Do you really think a 10 year old knows the difference between an emotion and feelings? And then, what to do with this message that "your emotions are invalid " ? I don't think a 10 year old hears that at all. In fact, how I would have interpreted that is...."I'm invalid" ???
I cannot express how MUCH...I disagree with what I witnessed. An he rhetoric is NOT at all the same rhetoric I heard in church. I have to assume, a misinterpreting has taken place. It's the only logical reason for this difference in opinion? Telling your kids your emotions are "invalid"...and the mother determining which ones are?? Then teaching your kid, based on the wrong interpretation??
In my opinion...this is bad information, being transposed onto these kids. As well meaning as it may sound...this message is ending up as "I'm invalid"....there's something wrong with me.
And as kid, because my dad was an awol dad most of the time....my mom did the best she could as a woman ...trying to teach a little boy how to be a man. All that was ...was like "Debutante Training" for girls which completely backfired in me. I rejected it, wholeheartedly and pretty quickly at a young age that my mom was a worthless source of information and support...( full of really bad advise ) which becomes apparent the first time you apply it in the real world. I was given "no tools" to survive in the real world from my mom in terms of what I was going to face in the future as a man. I had to get those tools from somewhere else which I did, thankfully, without a lot of help from my mother. She really a worthless source of information in the real world and lived in this "idealistic" bubble that simply wasn't real.
But this....what I just included, really bothers me. It bothers me so much, I don't know what I could say or do in the face of what I just withessed ? You're wrong ??
That's all I could say...but I'm pretty darn sure that I'm correct in what I'm saying. I don't know what else you could do either?
And I apologize for making this lengthy...but you mentioned something about initiative, which is also something I witnessed in my niece-in-law posts regularly about family life and her kids.
In one of the last ones, she showed them doing a structured "art and creativity" time..where all three...different ages and genders, do this group "art time" together. In the video...all three were working with modeling clay...making things and it looked like fun. They looked happy and were enjoying it....but. I remember myself clearly at that age and I also remember clearly ( because enjoyed art ) that, having someone determine what media I was going to use, and being instructed on how to do anything would have immediately put me off and I would have protested. Even as a kid...I wanted full artistic control of anything I did creatively. The very last thing I want is someone else getting their nose into what I was doing. I refused coloring books in fact...no way, no how, was I going to be using a coloring book !! That was not even a consideration. My creative process comes from inspiration...not from someone deciding what media, tools, and any other devise when I'm doing anything artistic. That would kill my artistic mojo. I even had kids wanting to partner with me on art projects and I politey said no.
So when I think of initiative and me doing art back in the day. The last thing I think of is a " group art day and time...with prescribed media and tools...because that simply kills the fun. That was my intuitive for myself. It's fun. I enjoy it. Otherwise...why else would I want to do it? As a kid that is. It's an organic process...it comes from within??
Otherwise, what I witnessed looked like institutionalized art class in school. With assignments...like , you have to. I enjoyed that too....but MIT as much as when I was inspired...and inspiration is not something you just say...."okay, time to perform" in a structured way ?
That's how my artist mind works at least. And my mom, didn't do that either. All she did was hand me some paper and a pencil and away I went. She didn't have to do anything...in fact, if she got involved in my creative process...I would have likely told her to butt out !! I had to have full artistic control or it wasn't going to happen. Again....that was good on my moms part. What I witnessed my niece-in-law doing would have absolutely caused a problem and I likely would have asked her " don't you have anything better to do? "
Case in point. I don't have the answer I just know what I know.
Unconditional Love
I did a good thing yesterday...and it STILL feels good despite everything else that's happened between my X and I.
Because of her ADHD, she has memory issues which is par for the course. She's very good at keeping track of appointments and work related things, but without a planner and calander, left to herself, she'll forget things that aren't in front of her. No big surprise.
When I was discarded abruptly, I was grabbing things as quickly as I could and grabbed a few things by accident that weren't mine. One was a Coleman propane camping stove. I also grabbed the propane bottles on the shelf and didn't leave her any. I was in emergency mode so I didn't spend much time thinking ahead.
When I realized I had grabbed mine and her camping stove, I returned hers but didn't have an extra propane bottle to spare. I told her at the time, she really should have the stove and bottle for emergencies like power outages or storms ( or both ). Large snow storms are rare here, but not unheard of.
Yesterday, when I was picking one up for myself, I bought one for my X too. I'm nearly broke at all times right now ( on the edge ) because I've had to buy so many things to survive in my new outdoor lifestyle. I won't have to keep spending like I have, but things like tires and vehicle repairs are always on the horizon. I just had to install some new suspension arms on the All Weel Drive rear end because one was bent, causing problems with alignment and premature tire wear. Thankfully, I have the skills to do that myself and the parts alone weren't that expensive online. Just part of deal, these things happen.
So money is tight, I'm on a fixed income and I dont have a lot to spare. My X is in great financial shape and working full time so this propane bottle for her would be nothing of consequence. But, she HAS to remember and that is a problem for her. I seriously doubted she'd make it a priority as camping gear is not on her radar. It was her X husband's stove in the first place.
But emergencies happen unexpectedly. It's why they call them "emergencies " lol. And there I was standing in front of the propane bottles and I remembered. I had the time, I could afford the $6 and I was already in the area. I picked her up one, and dropped it by while she was at work. She has a nest camera on the doorbell so she sees everything and it's recorded. I'd already picked up mail that way ( her choice ) so it was established that this wasn't a disapproved of action. I didn't tell her or warn her. I didn't get permission...I just did it because, it was for her protection in the future.....it wasn't for me, it was for her.
And it wasn't necessary a gift since I grabbed all the propane bottles on the shelf which she had sitting there for years. She already told me to take camping gear since she's never use it again at this time in her life ( she says ).
I didn't have to do it. I didn't have to return her stove. ( she'd probably never even miss it ). And I didn't have to buy her a new propane bottle or deliver it to her door. I didn't have to do any of that...it wasn't required and whether she liked it, approved of it, or even wanted me to is irrelevant.
What is relevant is her memory, and the fact that IF a big snow storm came along ( as it does on rare occasion ) and the power goes out ( as it does on rare occasion ) and she can't get out of her garage to drive somewhere ( as it has happened on rare occasion )....and the the fact that's its now in the 80° and summer is right around the corner...is also not relevant to what's happening right now. What's also relevant is I was standing there in front of the propane bottles buying one for myself and I rembered and thought of all this.
I could have not done it...and no one would be the wiser except for me. I would know if I did it or not. And thats not who I am. The choice wasn't about my ability...the choice was ...that I cared about her wellbeing ...even if she hasn't shown the same for me.
Its the golden rule and I carry it in my back pocket. That's how I roll as I can but, I do it for myself, and how it makes me feel when I do the right thing. ADHD doesn't prevent me from making the right choices. In a self serving way, I did it for myself as much as I did it for her.
Thank you J
Thanks for relating.
Found this about family estrangement after trauma: ’
This totally describes what’s happened, I think. Its like most of my sense of safety is stripped away, and the people I’ve trusted as my closest ones for decades are simply lost.
Thank you Swedish
For giving me the missing word in my vocabulary that helps explain what I'm dealing with myself. Estrangement is spot on. Just one search on this topic, and I know this is precisely the "thing" that I've known for so long. Just in this one search, I found this in an article written on this subject.
"The old saying goes that one should not cry over spilled milk. The reason? Because one cannot un-spill it. What is done is done.
The same holds for the past. If you have become estranged from your family, you cannot go back in time and undo what has been done. That is pure physics; time is not reversible.
Instead of crying because the milk cannot be un-spilled, why not build a better life, in other words, pour a more significant, fresher, and better glass of milk."
This is exactly what I'm doing. I'm building a better life...and pouring myself a more significant, fresher and better glass of milk for myself. Exactly!!
That place at my family table with my name on it, is no longer an option for me. That milk has gone bad, and I will no longer drink from that glass. Have you ever smelled milk that has gone bad? Pretty rancid stuff if you ask me?
Yep. Family estrangement...that's precisely the name for it.
It also helps explain why losing my X AND her family, was so extra painful for me. Like reliving a bad dream because you've been there before.
And....I'm not going back for another round again !! That pretty much sums it up for me.
Embodied Truth
I also realized within same metaphor that you cannot undo the past. The flip side of that same coin are all the wonderful things that also happened in the "part 1" of my relationships with my X. That is also as real and true as anything else.
During that time, many great and wonderful things happened and there's no way of undoing that either. It happened, it was real. For me, that becomes my embodied truth. It was also true and in the past.
I have no reason to rewrite history or change a single thing there either. In fact, why would I want to? I don't want to. I'm leaving that exactly as it is. The bad and the good come together as a package deal.
i hear ya
and it’s a process, and there’s a lot of pain. I think it’s extremely rare that anyone gets everything they need from their carers, it’s just that some are more imperfect than others. So I am trying, though there is still pain, to accept they are what they are, and it’s no surprise that I was what i was as a result. forgive myself, and them. xx
I really appreciate your thoughts
It’s true, one has to try and accept it.
Do you still see your family for holidays? Are there family gatherings? Do you ever see extended family like cousins, aunts?
I know this can vary so much between families, but most of my friends see their relatives often despite having issues with them.
Our family seems to fit the low effort description. There is minimal emotional interest and minimal get-togethers.
freezes
My parents have frozen out a lot of family members if they get any way ‘difficult’ - eg a previously favoured niece was in real crisis but this became how she had behaved ‘unforgivably’ to them, and has recently been frozen out. I wont list them all here but my family shrank over my childhood to a small core unit of me, my brother and our parents, and then our kids when they came along. Our partners were never really accepted because they were judged and disliked. Tbf, that was a decent call… but my people pleasing tendencies stem from an early awareness that love can be unintentionally lost by an infraction and that if brothers, sisters can be dropped, so can children. I’ve been told before that if I don’t stop certain behaviour (and looking back, it was just a low key articulation of my feelings in a different form) I would literally stop being loved. So I know love is conditional with them. Despite all this they arw generous and kind and I drop everything to help when they need me. Which they don’t like to admit.
I see how your parents behaviour would leave you feeling excluded, isolated, unloved. We dream of inclusion, belonging, acceptance, especially if we are used to conditional love. This behavior erodes all of that for you. I hae felt isolated and lacking belonging because of mine. I was happiest recently at a friend’s party I’d hosted. His extended family all came and I was able in a low key unpressured way to connect and feel part of something. He’s not a partner and I felt no pressure to impress or appease - just topped up glasses and basked in the warmth of his people, who were delighted to be there, and with my kindness to him.
Found family, maybe.
But what I’m saying is, maybe, to start looking for what you need where you stand a chance of finding it? If you’re looking for bluebells you won’t find them in a desert.
btw
I was going through the realisation of their narcissism before Covid hit. The lockdowns in my country gave me quiet time to process it and grow into acceptance.
I am a good bit older than you, a later stage of life. A younger me still wanted what others are unable to give. I feel happier now, no longer angry.
You get two adulthoods. Or the chance for them. The first, you’re the adult your parents made out of you. The second, if you’re privileged enough to get there, you get to be the adult you make out of yourself. I feel I’m in this second phase now, moving into it. It’s a happier place. Xx
Honestly, this is lovely
Thank you.
I don’t think you’re much older than me. But it’s comforting to take part of your wisdom.
Yes, I can sense it too, very late in life I’m trying to remove expectations my parents put on me, and intend to parent myself going forward.
The confusing thing is our family used to see relatives all the time, I come from a tightly knit community of relatives living close to each other. Fifteen cousins. Close relationships with grandparents. No conflicts either for 25 blissful years, and my parents were proud of their friendly relations to everybody.
Then people passed away, moved away, and dysfunction in the most immediate family restricted what was possible.
I've Figured Something Out....
in an unexpected way that's specific to me, yet relevant to everything "me related ". This may not sound like it's relevant to this discussion about parents and older people but, it actually is.
For lack of a better term, I'm calling it the "Crumugen Effect" which I think is quite accurate. And saying, I don't suffer from this effect and I think I know why?
Pretty sure I do, and here's what clued me in. I'm the "why" person, so I always want to know why? For myself that is. This has been a long time coming too....
What makes me different is the first part of this. I can answer the "why" better by saying this up front. These are things "you know" but can't explain them. Now I can explain what I know which makes this easier to understand. Patience is required for a moment ...to connect why older parents turn into Crumugens and isolate themselves. How I arrived at this is from something that happened to me which you wouldn't normally think of ....because I didn't think of it either until now. I going to make some claims and I'm going to back them with personal evidence that applies to me, or, those like me.
Here's what I know, and why it makes sense.
I'm claiming...ADHD doesn't change when you get older. What changes is your central nervous system. ( CNS ) . This is still relevant to anyone who gets older, not just people with ADHD which is why this is relevant to anyone...ADHD or not.
How do I know? I'm not a doctor?
That's absolutely true but I did something most people don't do in their entire lives. This isn't part of any "gift" as much as it was training. This literally just occurred to me that all the "Elite Swimmer Training" I did, did a lot more than I ever imagined in a permanent way to my CNS, not just my muscles and external framework. I took my standard, everyday, garden variety "body" ( and CNS ) and turned it into a machine. Actually, more like a fine tuned musical instrument...a Stratavarious, you might say. Of course I get out of shape and old and my body doesn't function as well, but part of this training in effect...is increasing my "self monitoring" system too. I've known this, but didn't know this effected so many other things until more recently as I've started to research this more. I'm claiming, anyone who did what I did can make this happen except...I did it from ages 6 to about 25 because I shifted from swimming ( only ) to Triathlons until about 25 years old.
So for my entire formative years...I was refining my ability to self monitor and adjust accordingly. There are two things happening here. One is the "self monitoring" part. And one is the "self adjusting "part both working together in unison. This is not "self awareness" in the traditional sense of that term. This is body awareness AND nervous system awareness. That's the key right there and the part...I'm just now becoming more aware of this ability I have. No one ever talks about nervous system awareness. They talk about "body awareness", or "self awareness" in the commonly understood way moat people understand. But long lasting effect of that intense, long term training of my nervous system ( over 20 years non stop ) has added this new dimension to my ability to monitor myself. Again, I don't think this is a gift per se. I think, it just happens when you turn your self into a Stratavarious...or finely tuned instrument. So when I say, I have a "highly sensitive nervous system"...I'm not kidding. That part is real. That nots "emotionally" over sensitive...that's "nervous system" sensitive and those are two very different things
Hoe do I know this ? I know this because of what happened about 8 years ago when taking Adderal started becoming a problem when it wasn't before.
What happened. At age 50, when I started taking Adderall, I bracketed my doses until I found the "sweet spot". That "sweet spot" made me calmer, more functional, etc ...all the above. I experimented at each incriment: 10mg, 20mg, 30mg, 40mg, 60mg....and eventually determined my "sweet spot" was 40mg.
I rembered specifically ( clearly ) that 10mg did nothing. ( couldn't even feel it ). 20mg...just barely on the radar ( functionally non functional ), 30mg...just started working but, still not quite there. 40mg "sweet spot" , 60mg...edgy. On the verge of "too much" but...as the second dose for long work days...it functionally started acting as an "energy pill" instead of having a calming effect.
So in essense...there's muscle memory...but there's also CNS memory ..and all that trying added the "self monitoring part" to it. That's not "born in"...that's developed from all that specialized training I did. It's a gift...but I had to earn it...you might say.
I need to come back to finish
Car Analogy
Sorry, pesky logistics, needed to do something.
So what happened when the Adderall started to become a problem at the exact same dose I'd been on. I started noticing that edgy, I started noticing that "speedy" energy pill feeling ( 60mg feeling ) at 40mg. I also noticed my anxiety levels rising, brain fog, etc...and the opposite of getting more calm and more functional. And I went mmmm.....this isn't good. So I stopped cold turkey and didn't any refills and went back to baseline without Adderall. I stayed this way until I started taking it again 4 years ago. But somethings different now after 5 years off starting from scratch again? I decided to start at square 1 at 10mg again. Oddly, I could feel it working where before I couldn't? After a while, the same thing happened after the initial acclimation period. You need to bump up to reach that same desired effect which is normal. So I bumped up to 20mg. Oddly enough, 20mg felt like 40mg before? What happened? And after being on 20mg for a while, the "sweet spot" hasn't changed. So there was a noticeable shift in my sweet spot....and 20mg is the new 40mg for me.
So of course, I needed to know why.
Just a quick search came up with a few interesting facts about our nervous systems I didn't specifically know ( the data )
"Autonomic tone refers to the baseline activity level and balance of your autonomic nervous system (ANS).
The ANS is the part of the nervous system that automatically regulates things like:
heart rate
breathing
blood pressure
digestion
alertness
stress response
recovery state
muscle readiness
“Tone” means:
the nervous system’s default setting or resting bias."
This is good and well and interesting stuff but I suddenly went. Wait a minute....I know all these things in real time...without even thinking about it? I'm constantly monitoring these things and getting feedback cognitively, in my thinking head. At all times? Without having to try ? And I can tell that exact "sweet spot" and know immediately when it's off. Just like during a Triathlon....I'm constantly monitoring all my "levels" and know exactly what I've got to work with at any giving moment.
The best apology is a car. Use to be especially...car dashboards were sparce in gages. You'd get a speedometer and some idiots lights and that's it. Even now, they give you a handful of gages ( maybe ) and a Tacometer not always though. And I suspect most people don't really watch their tachometer either. Most likely, speed and gas...I'm not different but I like full gages like: oil pressure, and temperature gages....not just an idiot light that warns you when it's actually critical . So even if you have these gages...I still suspect many people hardly look at them even if they're there. And really wouldn't know what the gage means in terms of the engine diagnostics. I suspect, most people, turn the key on, put it drive, look at the speed and check the gas...push brake, push acceletster...go.
So if picture this dash board on a normal car...they all look pretty much the same with few variables. And in respect to me...my dashboard started out looking just the same. Right up until I started swimming. So in what Honestly said about Two adult lives...I can borrow that same reference and confidently say...I had two childhoods...before swimming and after swimming. And here's why.
My dashboard doesn't look like a standard car dashboard. There are no "idiot lights" on my dashboard because it's filled with gages !! And they're not digital gages ...they're analog gages...old school...with a dial and needle that shows the full rage of levels.
So compared to what I just described I'm a standard car. My dashboard, for example would show the following ( each one has its own separate gage ) : oil pressure, oil temperature, gas level, gas pressure, brake fluid level, braking pressure, radiator temperature, radiator fluid level, transmission temperature, transmission fluid level, transmission gear ( 1,2,3,4,5,6 ) transmission pressure, tachometer ( engine rpms ) and finally the speedometer. That's 14 full analogue gages compared to the measly few that give you. Those are the " add ons" I was talking about. The extra added ones on top of the ones I started with. But I'm self monitoring those all the time ( automatically ) without really realizing I do. It's something you learn to do when you're performing at high levels and stay there for a long time.
And those add ons don't go away. They get permanently embedded into your wiring ...even if you stop training, excersising or even work out at all. That automatic self monitoring part is variable, but only within a small range.
So what this means for me is....as I got older and the shift occurred in my nervous system, I pretty quickly could tell that some of these gages were off. And those gages tell me where the sweet spot is, so when those guages are showing the levels have changed, I now it pretty quickly and try to make adjustments ( corrections ) accordingly. I've just got more gages I suppose, than some people?
But it's not just the gages! It's that automatically self monitoring part. In essence, just because you have them on your car dashboard...doesn't automatically mean you look at them or even know what that gage even means interns of levels and how that translates to the cars engine and systems.
So what I claiming is this. The ADHD didn't change. I just added more gages and learned how to interpret them until it just started happening automatically. That part, has not changed. Even all these years later....my nervous systems still remembers to do this and that doesn't stop.
But, here's the part that I'm still speculating but think this all has something to do with the "Crumugen" effect. What you can't see if how I move. I don't move like an old person. ( nearing 70 ). I don't shuffle when I walk....I walk smoothly and fluidly. I don't walk more slowly than I did. I can still performs tasks effortlessly physically...like a much younger person. I don't trip. I never fall. I don't slip. My reflexes are surprising fast as I drop things and catch them before they hit the ground. And I catch them surprisely more often than not... I rarely miss...so my reaction time is still really fast. I just dont look or move like an "old person" in my mannerisms and movements. ...yet, my nervous system did take a noticeable shift without question because of the Adderall thing.
My ability to withstand as much "stimulation" has changed. That wasn't the drug, it wasn't my self monitoring ability, and it wasn't my gages so it has to be my flexibility around outside inputs ie: other people.....and my ability to tolerate that same input as before.
What pops into my head is the image of WC Fields saying " get away from me kid...you're bothering me." He's like the ultimate Cremugon !
I'm definitely not like that, but I'm aware of the fact that some things bother me now more than they use to. All my gages are working fine as well as my self monitoring so it becomes more a choice of...having to "withstand" it or not most times. If I'm up for it, no problem. If I'm not up for it....I have to decide if it's worth the trouble or not but that's a decision I can choose to do or not. I still do most everything I use to do...just a little less and not as much. That has nothing to do with my body tho. My body is not my limitation what so ever ....the only thing that's changed is that nervous system shift.
And it is like this in a very real way. ( thinking of WC Fields ). I actually like kids and enjoy being around them . There's very few things that I truly have a problem with but one of them is "sqealing". Some kids are sqealers ( or screaming ) . And some kids squeal all the time. It's that high pitched sound that rocks my nervous automatically. It has nothing to do with whether I like the kid or not. It has everything to do with the high pitched squealing. It gets on my nerves really fast.
So in essence....if I was around a squealer...I'd have to limit the time...or....choose not to be around them. But if I had to be around them, I'd have to gear up, or prepare myself for the onslaught of terror to my nervous system. And, I can do it ...and I would do that...so that does stop me from doing it. But it would take a lot out if me to sustain my ability to stay there. I'd be exhausted after I finally left. That's a real thing for me. I was NOT a sqealer myself so it's difficult to be around it after a while. And not all kids squeal....so "all kids " is not the problem.
And you could apply that to just about anything. For me, squealing is the thing. It's just one example but it's definitely a thing. I don't remember my tolerance being so low as it is now so I'm assuming ...my nervous system just can't tolerate that extra stimulation anymore. And that Adderal shift in sweet spots supports it for me.
But that doesn't mean I can't be around squealing ...it just means it takes more effort than it did before. If I needed to, I could be around squealing all day it would still be okay. It's more a preference, than anything else.
I can relate to this, Swedish
I feel like there's a lot to the way we were raised that leads to us finding ourselves in these positions as servant partners.
My parents were essentially very "good" parents, however, my opinions and emotions were very much not welcome. They could not be wrong or questioned. They could not apologize. I learned to keep my thoughts and feelings to myself and keep the peace. They cared more about what others thought about me as a reflection on them vs. my feelings and experience. I learned to stuff my feelings down because they didn't matter. I learned to be very self sufficient and not to ask for help. When people would say, "be yourself," I actually couldn't understand what that meant and still struggle with it to this day because I couldn't actually be myself. "Don't rock the boat" is still my family's mantra.
While not a bad upbringing in most senses - I was well cared for. We had food, shelter, love, etc. - this emotional immaturity had a major impact on me and I do believe explains in large part why I endured so much for so long in my marriage.
Thank you, Melody
It’s so validating to see others have the same issues.
I believe you’re spot on: this truly is emotional immaturity. They’ve never realized their perceptions of the world is not by default superior to yours. They don’t understand that when you describe something from your life that is foreign to them, their opinion about it can hardly be more correct than yours. Even with places they’ve never been to or people they’ve never met, they’re convinced they know better than you, who experienced it.
They don’t understand you have knowledge and skills they don’t.
They tend to regard your emotions like tiresome obstacles. They also prefer to keep on their own turf. And if you’re upset they’ve hurt you, they will remind you of all they’ve done for you rather than apologize.
I’m amazed it’s possible to live your whole life this way and never notice it’s presumptious.
Haven’t been as good as you at hiding my emotions, which I’m beginning to realize is odd. Your way seems a lot more functional. It’s also how I’ve read people deal with this kind of parenting. There is a kamikaze-like quality to my openness. But I just thought if I could explain myself well enough, be rational, exact, mature enough, compassionate enough, I could overcome this obstacle to love and connection.
I believed in connection and understanding. But with the parents, and the marriage, there was very little I could do.
We have to change
I hear you! I have surely learned that the people around me don't want to do a lot differently so when I want or need things to change, I usually have to make the changes on my end, however more uncomfortable or difficult that may be. Like you sitting outside. With my parents, that may mean choosing conversation topics carefully and leaving important things out about my life or feelings. It hurts because, like you, I can't have a full or at least fully authentic relationship with them because of this. And I do love and appreciate them dearly.
Quick anecdote: As you know, my ex husband passed away. They have never once asked how I am doing or how our daughter is doing since. When I was still crying a week after his passing, my mom told me to go to the doctor and get on anti depressants. I was GRIEVING for goodness sakes. I'd just watched my former husband of 20 years waste away for months while supporting our devastated daughter and my honest and valid emotions were... incorrect... to her. They needed medicating. I was floored. So I never mention it to her... like it never happened. This person who was part of all of our lives for more than 20 years is gone and we just never talk about it. We talk about recipes and the latest Netflix hit instead. Meanwhile I still cry weekly and our daughter still suffers, but as long as it's invisible to them, everything's okay I guess.
Despite this, they are wonderful in so many ways. They love and my daughter. It's hard to reconcile.
I think we need to give ourselves HEAPS of grace. We're managing a lot. We've been through a LOT. Thank goodness there are a few people out there who understand us and can relate, even if it's relative strangers on the internet! Hugs of solidarity.
Why!?!
I’m horrified about your parents and their attitude towards your ex husband’s passing.
My parent too suggested I go on antidepressants - not for the cPTSD divorce left me with, but when I expressed they’d hurt me.
Why are they so emotionally unintelligent?
Why do they never speak of losses like the one you and your daughter experienced? Do they think it makes bad things go away? Don’t they realize they’re invalidate your loss, making everything feel ten times worse, and your child’s loss?
Thanks, hugs back!
(And Melody, sorry I was rewriting the text above while you replied, so it may turn up differently.)
Thank you, Swedish
Your outrage makes me feel so validated. Thank you so much for that. I feel so resentful about it but then guilty for feeling that way because I love them and they are actually good people. I rarely speak up for myself, but I did tell my mom that comment about antidepressants really hurt me and that I was grieving like a normal person. But since then I keep my pain to myself and I don't mention it. Only the positives about our lives. In her mind we're probably thriving. They do often ask how my ex-husband's parents are doing though??? But not about how we are managing. I don't get it and never will.
I try to remember that both of them were raised by emotionally immature parents themselves and they got married really early. They had children young. They weren't equipped. I try to take comfort in breaking the cycle with my own daughter. Even as a teenager I thought, "I will never parent like this" and I really haven't. I guess that's something. (I've probably swung too far the other way! lol)
I'm so, so sorry your parent suggested antidepressants too. It's like they can't handle real emotions and don't want to take accountability for their part in anything. So much easier when you're the one who needs "fixing." If they can't see your pain, it doesn't exist and they can be okay. :(
They perhaps can’t handle our pain
The only excuse for their behavior would be they’re incapable of handling our pain, out of empathy for us. Badly handled empathy.
I often sense any negative emotion in me is precisely what triggers my parent into invalidation. We’ve come to a point, since I’ve been suffering for years, where any negativity in me, and my expectation of parents not wanting to accept it, makes the conversation go south. It’s really hard to never touch upon anything negative (even the weather) with a person who knows you and your history intimately, while you struggle hard in life. But now even when I try to keep out of negative themes, I’m flooded by negative emotions in these conversations, to the point where I feel I might as well give up on life. And I feel so ashamed about washing up wrecked on the shores of my caregivers, having failed at every attempt at love.
Away from parents, I am doing reasonably well emotionally. Friends and kids fill my free time and I’ll get back to dating shortly. I even enjoy alone time now. But with parents, I’m shit and my life is a failure.
Reading up on emotional immaturity I realize I too have it. Not the disorganization or irresponsibility, but I’ve been emotionally dependent on others all my life, not knowing how to handle emotions, seeking validation and comfort from a helpless place (and apparently still do). I was never shown how to self-regulate.
What ADD ex did was validate and be extremely emotionally attuned to me. We met when I was in grief, and I will always be grateful for his years of tenderness about my emotions, until he himself fell apart from ADD. It became clear he didn’t know how to sustain himself either. He wasn’t honest with me about his emotions. But also - and this is so painful to realize - I invalidated him, too.
I didn’t understand his situation having undiagnosed ADD, at all. And I was guilty of the same insensitivity towards him, that my family has always shown me.
Understanding and grieving this emotional immaturity has become a seismic shift for me. All the big loves of my life have been plagued by it. I’ve never been alone before. Now, I’m taking steps toward better self-regulation.
Trauma therapist has advised to leave the old relationships behind to culture new ones. But I feel with this new realization I would want to repair things so I don’t have to completely avoid everyone. I would like to be able to see ex at son’s graduation. I would want to be able to celebrate holidays with family of origin. I would want to see my first love from high school from time to time to reminisce and reflect. Don’t know yet how to do it, it all frightens me. But I’d like to.
Feeling now this alone time of grieving has been fruitful.
Melody, I think of you. ❤️
I think you're right
I don't think my parents can handle my pain. They don't know what to do. My dad has too much empathy and I think he's just afraid to say anything because he will feel so distressed and not know how to help me if he sees the full extent how I feel. He defaults to silence. I think my mom has too little empathy. She thinks about how things impact HER. Eg. your pain is hard for ME; I can't stand to see you like this; if this is happening to you then I'M a failure, etc.
Regardless, it is what it is. I think practice makes it possible to stay in their orbit. It used to be a huge challenge for me and now I can just go and be surface level pretty easily if I don't overthink it. Having an activity helps - playing cards, going to a movie, making a dinner or going out for one, etc. It still bothers me, but it has gotten easier. And I'm trying to appreciate all the ways they DO show up more. They're older and I won't have them forever. I no longer hope they will change.
I'm sure you can and will do these things (graduation, celebrations) in your own time, Swedish. Look at all you have already proven yourself capable of. Can you believe what you've been through and somehow here you still are, amazingly resilient!?
Thank you Melody
They obviously love you. You can be proud to have learned a way to be with them and not hurt so much.
Thank you for your kindness.
Melody
It sounds like you've found a work around with your parents and I only wish I could find that same avenue with my remaining family, my two sisters. Unfortunately, I'm fighting up against something I feel there's no solution or work around for in my own family, which has been verbally stated, out right by my older sister. Without actually realizing what she was saying, she revealed a mindset that has become set in stone, the die has been cast and nothing will ever change it. That's her mind I'm speaking of, and it comes from a role she was assigned long ago as the "surrogate mother" in our family.
What you said here is true about your mom feeling like a failure I think...which corresponds to my older sister as well. I know this is true from my own experience with this when my dad died. On his death bed, he suddenly pops off with : "you need to take care of your mother now"...which really struck me like an odd thing to say? My mom didn't have dimensia at the time, and in fact, had be taking care of my dad ( very well ) in the face of all his health challenges. My mom, didn't need a dad, so to speak. She didn't need anyone to take care of her, she was doing a fine job on her own. I mean, in an emotional supporting sense yes, but knowing my dad, that's not what he was saying. He meant "take care of her" like a parent. That was, in my mind, an attempted "role assignment" he was trying to pass onto me ...at the very last minute out of the blue. It was telling, is what I'm saying.
And my older sister got that same message about me and probably her younger sister ( my older other sister ) to be the "surrogate role" for her which she accepted wholeheartedly. My oldest sister once, actually said this in more words to me, like she's now responsible for me...as IF she's my mom.
The problem is, my mom was a helicopter mom for you can see where this is going? She's become, in role, my 2nd helicopter mom in my life. She cannot see me for who I am looking through that lens. She sees me as a child, even when I'm not.
But the moment when this became completely revealed is when all three of us were having dinner together as grown adults...me about 50 years old....her in her late 50's after my mother had died. This is one of those super insulting moments when two people are talking, right in front of you while your listening, and they're talking about you. As their younger brother, it's almost as if, they don't think your capable of understanding, this "topic" they're talking about, when in actuality...you know more about it than they do. It's like hand palm to the face....exasperation.
We were all talking, and telling each other about things we were doing in our lives...suddenly, my older sister looks at her younger sister and says "Peter Pan Syndrome"...as IF, I didn't know what that was. And because my older sister, is kind of the surrogate mother for her younger sister too ( that role assignment she received ) and because she's a school teacher too ( or was before she got married ) it felt like class was in session, her younger sister was the student and I was "the case study"..sitting there listening to this going...WTF ?
I dint even have to get into all the reason why the Peter Pan Syndrome is the wrong diagnosis for me. I had already been in therapy for years at that point, so any similarities where just, similarities but most frustrating of all ....I had actually proven I didn't have an unwillingness to grow up. In my actions across years of "proof" that my older sister cannot see. Because she can't see me, despite the proof.
And for me, I'm so beyond tired of not being seen, I can't even be around it anymore. It hurts my heart too deeply. I couldn't even sit down at the table to play cards or do an activity with her like you do. She's not my mother....she's my sister.
So effectively, I don't have a oldest sister, I have an "oldest surrogate mother" and I can no longer play that role as her son. In the sane way...I wasn't my mom's father either ...which ...at the time my dad died ( many many years ago ) my mom definitely didn't need another father figure, and she definitely didn't need to taken care of ( logistically speaking ) she was a fine job of taking care of herself as well as nursing my father for years in a long term decline until his death. She had no need to taken care of...in the way my father said it . Emotionally yes, she needed that most definitely. But she didn't a dad or father or husband to "take care of her" like he was trying to get me to do??
Anyway...this situation I'm in is a bit different than yours when talking about parents compared to my older sister. She's still trying to be my mother...but she not...my mother. And because she gets very "set" in her mind about things, and because she's also a teacher, and she's also very intelligent ( highly intelligent ) she thinks she knows, when she doesn't....and there's no no changing it no matter what I do. That die was cast a long tike ago...and she was assigned that role ( as surrogate ) which just doesn't fly.
I can't even be in her presence or have a conversation with her, knowing what I know. I refuse to be unseen anymore, by the people I love the most. That's a choice...but I'm making it for my own self protection.
People closest to us don't always know us but they think they do
I'm really sorry to hear about your sister. It sounds like she makes a lot of assumptions about who you are based on her own story about you. It's really frustrating when people create their own narratives and are so resolute about them. I can definitely understand your choice to remain outside of her orbit.
I agree
I’m sorry, J.
Thank you Swedish
.
Thank you Melody
This is absolutely true. The people who know us best ( or closest ) many times think they us when they they're not always right. I do appreciate you connecting with me on this. It makes me feel like I'm not alone.
This just happened, so this is a great example on how this works. This is part of my grand experiment, or, alternative lifestyle you might say. It's very interesting how this dycotomy for sure. And right off the bat, I'll use the term "ferel self" to highlight this duality. It's not self depreciating, It'd just acknowledging I have this part of me. It doesn't cause me to think lesser of myself in other words.
So basically, I have this, "in town" experience....and "out of town" experience. In town, is a temporary way side or "supply depot" stop, where I can rest and recovery and get any business done, that I can't get done in town. Currently, I have no permanent home or dwelling ( no address ) which requires me to act and behave differently depending on which place I exist. Those dichotomy is extremely different from one to the other.
In town means, I must follow rules and regulations set down by the powers that be. Out if town means, I'm in remote areas where there are no rules. My feral self is axti ated activated which means, I follow my intuition and do what's best based on how I feel in that moment. I get to pick and choose: when, how, how long, how I feel, take breaks as I feel like, I have no boss telling me what to do. Basically, I do what I want, when I want, how I want, or ..not do it at all. It's the ultimate freedom...I can do what ever I want 24/7. But there are limitations...based on my environment. If a storm suddenly appears...I have to hunker down and let it pass. I'm basically stuck or trapped in this confined space ( Currently inside my vehicle ) which is basically a metal sided tent. I have no problem with this as I know the storm will pass. As soon as it passes, I'm right back to doing what ever I want to all the time. That doesn't mean I don't have to do things because there's always things to do. I'm busy getting things done...but it's always on my terms. I make the rules...I have no boss except for mother nature. As they say, in the battle with mother nature, the best you can hope for is a tie. There's arguing this. If you think your going to win, think again.
In town however, I've got a completely different set of rules. The powers that be, are from multiple sources and as best I can, I try to abide as well as possible. My one, and most important to me is the storage unit I call my "hub". It is my hub. It's my home base that I absolutely need to make everything else happen. I can no longer let my feral self make decisions...and one of those involves the hours of operation. You are not allowed to spend the night there. They have opening and closing hours, which means, in town, I have a place to sleep ( another story ) and a place to get work done. In town...I'm always working, it never ends until I have to leave. My feral self suddenly, has to shift in responsibilities.
Here's what happened. I think everyone here will know exactly why, but, with a twist. I find this fascinating.
In the wild, time no longer matters. The day is ruled by the sun ( daylight ) so I stop checking my phone to see what time it is. It simply doesn't matter anymore so I use the sun to tell me when to do things. And you just adapt without thinking...or at least...I did.
So Im back in town, using the sun as my guide ...but there's a problem. The days get longer but the clock stays the same. The other day...my internal "nature" clock ( the sun ) didn't recalibrate to "clock time". The gap keeps getting larger so suddenly...I busy doing work and I look at my phone and go...oh no, I need to leave !! It seemed much earlier based on the sun ( and my feral self ) but now, I've got to get put of here because the gate locks automatically. Oops. I missed the gate locking by just a few minutes. I was on feral time...not, clock time from being on feral time for so long. Now I'm trapped inside, which violates the rules.
Buts here where it gets interesting. I've gotten to know the ladies who manage the place during the day. I've communicated regularly, checked in to ask if I can do things ( or not ) and basically tried to keep them informed. Of on question, I ask, and they tell me exactly what to do, no problem. I follow whatever they say because they ( or their employer ) makes the rules...and it's vital that I have this "hub" in order for my entire plan to work.
So, here I am. Trapped inside and I can't get out. But I'm not supposed to sleep here so no now what? I was instructed to tell the 24 hour on duty caretaker but...the care taker got old and is no longer there. What I was told to do, is no longer available?? So I made the decision, instead of causing someone to have to come there, or cause a fuss involving anyone else...I just slipped my vehicle into a open stall between to big RVs and spent the night. Later, after the fact, told them what happened and their response was this.
"That's fine, no problem, we just monitor to make sure people aren't doing this regularly. If it ever happens again, there's a new number to call and they can open the gate from the call center ( a new added feature ). But, thank you for your honesty...we noted that it happened (electronically tracked ). We don't care that you ran into that situation, we're only interested in people who do it intentionally. As long as it doesn't happen all the time. Maybe you could set an alarm on your phone instead of gaging by the sun." LOL
I kid you not. I may have changed a few words but thats exactly what happened. Now, if they knew I had ADHD, and they knew it was an ADHD related brain fart...or...they knew my history ( which they don't ). Would that have changed it?
The biggest reason they appreciated my situation and has zero issues with it were:
Honesty and Communication. Zero issues. No problem even tho....it "violated the rules".
I even admitted I don't wear a watch and rely on my phone. Answer: set a timer. Lol
I fully realize my feral self was to blame. I also find it extremely interesting how I shift seamlessly to the sun as my gage. The contract of "time" changes when clocks are no longer necessary. I'm also thinking about the old farm house dinner bell....to tell the farmer it's time to come in and stop working.
Anyway. If that same situation happened with my sister? I can tell you without question, she'd be less forgiving for the exact same scenario.
If it keeps happening, that would change everything. I'm not pointing my finger at my sister...I'm showing how important communication and honesty come into play. The part that would involve my sister now? If I did the exact same thing with her...I don't think it would matter. Non compliance...means zero tolerance in her mind.
That's the deal. And I'm sticking to it.
On the lighter side...
With all my thinking about "gages" and machines, and in keeping with this idea that gages help you monitor your performance, I remembered something that made me laugh ( about myself ) but it also serves to highlight what I was attempting to convey in my car analogy.
My favorite motorcycle, which I owned for years, had a history of the speedometer going bad. As mine was used when I bought it, shortly after, the speedometer stopped working. And because the speedometer and tachometer ( rpms ) were both clustered together...you couldn't just fix one without replacing the entire instrument panel. And since it was of European make, these parts were not only expensive, but used ones were extremely hard to find because EVERYONE who had one, ended up having to replace this very expensive part. It was so expensive, even used ( and nearly non existent ) it amounted to 25% of the price I paid for the entire motorcycle!! In other words, it was not cost effective. So I never replaced it. Lol
I drive that motorcycle for years without a speedometer and only a tach. I figured out how to interpret the engine rpm into mph ...but that depended on which gear I was in because that changed everytime I shifted gears. So basically...it was kind of a guesstimation. It was far from accurate...because I only memorized 1 gear. So, if I was in any of the other 4 ( 1 out of 5 ) ...I literally had no idea how fast I was going was completely operating with no means to know how fast I was going !! Lol
I operated like this for years....like, ten years to be precise....and, I never got a ticket during that entire time. That didn't mean I wasn't speeding because, I can assure you I was....in excess....not just a ticket but more like jail time type speeding. So that didn't mean I was good at guesstimating...it just meant I was lucky.
Case in point. I'm still laughing at myself for that one. Lol
PS There's a name for this, its called "seat of the pants"...to be sure.
Finding Bluebells in Desert
I can't find it now, but someone recently used the expression "you can't find bluebells in the desert" caught my eye. I was trying to find in what context it was used but this notion has been spinning around in my head ever since which usually means for me, to stop and take a closer look. And just going back through this entire thread and reading all the comments looking for who said it helped me gain some insight on everything I heard. I have some thoughts of my own but also saying, I can relate to most everything said here myself about parents, estrangement, loss of a partner, reflecting on "how we got here"...the whole works. I don't have childeren of my own so that's the only hole in my experience. You don't have to have childeren to understand tho....it's just not the same "embodied feelings" that a person with children has from a bond with a their child.
I've had enough bonds with other people and in relationships with family members to know what it feels like including pets for that matter. My last dog died in my arms only a few years ago. It's the only time I've had a dog pass away naturally ( in my presence ). He had congestive heart failure so he'd have spells of not doing well, then rally back to where, I felt like he was still enjoying life. He didn't appear to be in pain, just have these short spells of not being able to breathe well...fluids in the lungs ( pulmonary edema ). I had him on medication whiched helped, but it's only a band aid. He really needed surgery and a heart valve replaced which simply wasn't a player as I couldn't afford it. If I had had the money, I would have done it. And we also are more humain in that respect to dogs or pets...putting them down when they are no longer enjoying life and suffering. With my little guy, he was still enjoying my company and all the attention that I gave him....and what he gave me in return was unconditional love. You could literally kick your dog everyday and they'd still love you....no matter what.
And he, out of all my dogs, was a "one owner" pet. He was so attached, and was so close to me, specially..that he went with me everywhere, even inside stores. He would be beside himself if I left home without him. He was literally stuck to me like glue.
I had forgotten something until just now, as to why I set out to do what I'm doing even now. From the day I brought him home, until the day he died, he had been by my side the entire time as I was working from home his entire lifetime. He was rarely, ever, not with me and he loved nothing more than to go for rides in the car. His brother, who was tragically run over by a car ( that I also witnessed ) was just the opposite in that respect. He was more independent and didn't really like car rides at all, so when he died, it was just the one, and he only had me for company after that. There was no way, no how, I could adopt him out when my situation required me to move. He was suffered more from losing me than I could stand to bear.
So my initial plan involved a way to keep him with me and move at the same time. It was initially designed around him, so the two of us could travel together ( in the car that he loved more than anything ) until his time was up. I wasn't going to separate him from me, no matter what it took. What he gave me, was greater than anything of monetary value and I absolutely felt responsible to make sure I returned the same to him.
So, even at the end, he was doing pretty well until he had one of his spells again. Something told me, this time might be it. When I woke up early in the morning, he wasn't glued to me as usual. I actually knew what that meant, as dogs go off to die alone, and I found him upstairs in a pile of my dirty laundry ( my smell ). When I picked him up, his body was cold but he was still just barely hanging on. If it were a person, you'd be rushing them to the emergency room but I already knew what the problem was so it just his time. All I did was bundle him up in a warm blanket and brought him downstairs to sit with me. I sang him a song, he took one last big effort to move to my and licked my face, then rolled over and died while I was holding him. It's was a beautiful moment for me, not that he was suffering for a long time, but because I was there for him the entire time and he was home when he went. It's the only home he ever knew, and I was his person, there with him the entire time. The loss was emence as he was my best friend. Better than any other friend and companion I've ever known. That definitely left a hole that has never been refilled. I cannot take on that kind of responsibility again, in my current situation and it would make things far more difficult logistically to have a pet along.
So for me, that's as close as it gets to a child but he wasn't my child in that respect. He was my companion and best friend more than anything....and that bond was mutual. He wanted nothing more than to just be with me. If I just fed him and gave him water...all I had to do was just be there for him and he was totally happy. Just my presence made him happy. I didn't really have to do anything else?
I can definitely say this reflecting back. I have no regrets in my decisions regarding him. My plan.....this same one I'm following through on now, was originally designed around the two of us. He died...but the plan is still a viable one and is working as I had envisioned it all the way back then. I'm alone, is the only difference. And I'm not going to get a pet that cannot take care of or returned what they give so thats not an option either.
It's ironic that I'm physically in the desert as we speak. It's also ironic that my plans include going "deeper in"...ie: even more remote and further away from civilization ( fewer people ). Actuality...I'm behind my originally schedule so I need to switch venues because of the heat ( summer). I looking for elevated areas in the mountains where it's cooler and I think I've found it, once I go check it put. It'll still be remote, still, very few people, but just not the desert during the summer. I'll return to the desert next fall when the weather changes.
But this metaphor of bluebells is still bring me to something. For, I'm not looking for bluebells...which changes things dramatically. And I'm not "running away" from anything. I'm going to something instead. I'm going towards peace and quiet and being surrounded by beautiful scenery 24/7. I wake up to beauty...and go to bed to beauty every day. As far as a home....nothing man made can really compare. And that's just it. A dog or pet is liability because of the other animals out there. A small dog like my last one would be a excellent snack for a large raptor or coyote...both, are everywhere, all around me 24/7. It would be irresponsible of me to put a pet in harms way like that bo matter how lonely I might feel ( brief periods ) just to fill that void. And it's really a void or hole in respect to my last dog. That only applied to him...that really doesn't apply to anyone else.
I definitely do not want to go "back" to the environment I left. I've found that a shift has occurred already, where I'm not being pulled backwards to that place and my X anymore. There's still that hole...but it's already being replaced. I'm looking forward to what I have planned. And I have nothing holding me back.
I don't have a big family. I don't have any living relatives to speak of. They were all scattered around the country anyway, I hardly saw them even when they were alive...separated by thousands of miles. I have no desire to go back to my home town as I haven't talked to my other sister for almost ten years. And no, she doesn't call me....once I stopped calling her. I hear, she's got some issue with me, it's another compliance thing ( not following the family script ) so, there's no fixing that issue either.
And what's really fascinating, is I've had several offers from women already to come to them to meet up, almost like a date? Kind of? One said ...we can get Tacos ( one of my favorite foods ) if I drive 600 miles to get there. One, said, if I'm ever her way, I should get together with her ( 3000 miles away ). And that other friend ( the one who wanted to kill her ex in his sleep ...not actually but her contempt was HIGH ) ....wanted me to drive another 600 miles ( back home round trip ) again, to do work but stay at her house in the process.
And here I am in the desert.....but I'm not looking for bluebells. That's just it. If I was looking for bluebells ( another relationship ) ...I might be lured or pulled that way. I zero pull ...it's last thing I want right now.
Also....the Deja Vou feeling like....I just did this with my X. She was the one who approached messages me...and offered for me to come to her with some kind of lure or bait to get me there. These other women...seem to be flowing the exact same pattern....except this time I have no hole left from losing my best friend and companion. I just remember how great it felt to have someone to talk to after my last dog died. He definitely occupied that "child/dependent/family" space ...but functionally he was my best friend. I was his best friend too the the relationship was reciprocal to the very end.
I know people aren't the same exactly. The rewards are much greater but....that relationship and loss taught me just how close you can actually be...and the loss of a family member. He was moat definitely a family member and one who was there like glue...everyday.
That's why I say I'm like a dog. We were perfectly suited for one another. He showed up everyday for me, and I showed up everyday for him...until the very last day. No regrets there either, if I had to do it again, I wouldn't change a thing.