I think I started a New Year's Eve catastrophe

I see that you are feeling

Submitted by PoisonIvy on Thu, 12/31/2015 - 17:20

I see that you are feeling guilty for having a life of your own. I fully support your plan to continue with your plans and to express yourself respectfully and politely to your husband. I hope you have a good time with your parents, and I hope you can pat yourself on the back for standing up for yourself.

Don't know your history but

Submitted by MrsB on Thu, 12/31/2015 - 18:00

Don't know your history but it sounds like your partner is making a bid for attention and connection with you. Is there a reason you have separate plans? Is there a reason you aren't inviting him to your parents? Is there a way you can meet his need--not necessarily by giving up your plans but by considering what he is wanting from you? If anything, can you respond with compassion for what he wants or needs? Can he do the same for you? Can you gently and lovingly explain your need behind choosing to be with your family?

Again, I don't know your story but I admire alot of your posts. Sounds like you are doing alot to take back your power, as I am trying to do as well. Reading "Hold me Tight" and "Non-Violent Communication" have helped me with responding compassionately and sensitively to my spouse while keeping my boundaries strong and true.

I can respond to some

Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on Thu, 12/31/2015 - 18:47

Hello MrsB,

I will try to answer as matter-a-factly as I can.

Don't know your history but it sounds like your partner is making a bid for attention and connection with you. I agree, whole-heartedly.

Is there a reason you have separate plans? We had no plans at all. My heart's desire to live each holiday to its fullest. When I sit and wait for it to happen, it does not. While it might - - -i had set myself up for being disappointed with my own expectations.

Is there a reason you aren't inviting him to your parents? He is welcome and invited.

Is there a way you can meet his need--not necessarily by giving up your plans but by considering what he is wanting from you? The easiest way I can explain this is I had neglected myself, and was so out of balance making my spouse' needs and wants a priority, that I lost myself. I am striving to find a way that both our needs can be filled and met. It is proving very difficult. My gut fear is that our relationship can only work when it is out of balance. And I no longer desire to live that way. I had shared various times that I was going to go to my parents' house for New Years' Eve.

If anything, can you respond with compassion for what he wants or needs? I can respond with empathy.

Can he do the same for you?

Can you gently and lovingly explain your need behind choosing to be with your family? Yes. I would like to be with both.

We did the Non-violent communication program with Marshall Rosenberg about 10-15 years ago. Jackal/Giraffe . . .wonderful. It was one of many things that has positive aspects - and takes dedication and practice to implement.

Very truly,

Liz

Is there a reason you aren't inviting him to your parents? He

Submitted by overwhelmedwife on Thu, 12/31/2015 - 19:07

<<<

Is there a reason you aren't inviting him to your parents?

<<<<

He is welcome and invited.

>>>>

Then, I think, your answer to his email was misleading. Saying that you have "other plans" when he's invited seems misleading.

Instead, I would have said something like, "as you know, I've made plans to spend NYE at my parents and of course you are invited as well. So, if you'd like to spend NYE with me (and I'd like to spend NYE with you)), then we can do so at my parents."

If he then said that he doesn't want to go to your parents, then stick with your plans.

I totally understand when you say that if you don't make any plans, no plans will usually get made. My H would sit on the couch or sit on our bed 24/7 if he could except to golf or work out. His brothers and dad were similar.

Learning new ways to communicate

Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on Fri, 01/01/2016 - 22:06

Then, I think, your answer to his email was misleading. Saying that you have "other plans" when he's invited seems misleading.

My goal is to stay out of he-said she-said arguments. My goal is to relay my thoughts as I know them to be. I was unsure how else to word it. Current experiences tell me if I responded as you suggested:

"as you know, I've made plans to spend NYE at my parents and of course you are invited as well.. . . ". . .

....... had the probability of starting an argument. My initial thought when I read the e-mail was , "WHAT?!?!?! I already said I was going to my parents this year." etc, etc., etc., I know what I share. I will not walk into an argument. "You didn't tell me you were going to your parents." "Yes, I know I did. I brought it up several times." "You musta said it when I was walking out the door and I didn't hear you." "No, I know I stated it during a discussion" . . . . . . . . . Get's me no where but crazyland.

He is loved, welcome and wanted at my family's gatherings. I do tell him he is missed. And I also tell him I respect that he needs to stay away from family gatherings. In as much as I hurt that he is in so much emotional pain, I choose to no longer isolate myself from my family on holidays and parties and special events. I did on and off for a few years. Now that it is a indefinite choice for my spouse to remain away from these events, I respect it, but will not join in with commiseration. Yep, I feel bad he is hurting. I cannot fix that hurt for him. And I will not assume all responsibility for it ether. I will encourage and support him to discover why he feels so bad. . . . . . .and encourage him to seek out help/counseling/assistance in discovering why.

I can continue to make requests/statements like, "I really hope we can renegotiate our relationship." "I really hope we can review our finances so I can feel we are both see where we stand in the financial realm.."

Yes, I do feel hard, and I have a cold stance. I need to feel and see that we can develop/create/built a relationship. I will do my part. Only my part. I made a big mess assuming responsibility for too much.

Liz

as you know, I've made plans to spend NYE at my parents and of c

Submitted by overwhelmedwife on Sun, 01/03/2016 - 03:28

<<<<

as you know, I've made plans to spend NYE at my parents and of course you are invited as well.. . . ". . .

<<<

I completely understand the need to avoid the He Said, She Said arguments.

Is your H an alcoholic?

After too many of these instances, I have long instituted the Text/Email method for these sort of things. When I need to tell H something important (an upcoming event, some plan, important info, etc), I send the info to him by text or email and ask him to respond noting that he's read the info.

THIS has SAVED me many times. In fact, it has had the ADDED BONUS of teaching H that his memory or attention skills are lousy. Before, he'd argue that I never told him. Now, I can say, "look here, I texted you 2 weeks ago with the info, and 5 minutes later, you responded back that you had read the message." oops!! lol....

Before, H would insist that his memory is perfect and therefore I couldn't have possibly told him. After a few instances of "text proof" or "email proof," he's come to accept that maybe his memory is bad or maybe he's not paying attention.

My H is an alcoholic, and that does contribute, but since he drinks far less than he used to, I don't know if the poor memory is just old alcohol damage, early dementia, or his Rx's (which he sometimes misuses).

So, figure out a way that you can document that he has been told. It's not enough for you to text or email, because he can claim that he never saw it. So, it's important to have him respond by email or text.

Behaviors I choose not to do

Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on Mon, 01/04/2016 - 00:49

overwhelmedwife,

No, my spouse nor I drink. At all.

There are some things I have learned in the past few years. One of them is I will no longer feel I have to prove anything. We all forget something, lose something, misplace something. I have determined to care enough about myself that I will not keep track nor prove any sort of behavior issues I struggle with in my relationship to my spouse. If I do not remember something - I say so. If I forget something, I say so. If I lost something, I say so.

I spent so much time and effort trying to "prove" things. The 'he said/she said' battles are something in which I wil no longer participate.

Liz

If I do not remember something - I say so. If I forget someth

Submitted by overwhelmedwife on Mon, 01/04/2016 - 02:18

<<< If I do not remember something - I say so. If I forget something, I say so. If I lost something, I say so. <<<

I completely agree with you. But, you're not the one instigating the "he said, she said," arguments. Maybe your H doesn't go "on and on" about these things, even when you're saying nothing. If so, then that's great. You can just not engage and the topic dies.

My H manages to argue with NO ONE. In fact, the fact that I'm not engaging with him makes him more angry, "you're not listening to me, you're not responding to my points," and so forth. If I leave, then that makes him more angry.

H escalates rather quickly

So, I've learned to implement these "proofs" because they immediately shut him down. H is a "right fighter," which means he'll fight that "he's right" as long as there's no irrefutable proof proving him otherwise.

When he's shown proof early on, it not only prevents the escalation, but it answers the question, AND more importantly, it's taught H that his memory isn't full proof.

So, now when he says that I didn't tell him something, I just calmly say, "hmmm, I thought I sent you a text (or email), let me see. Oh, yes, last Tuesday I texted you with that info and you responded."

Your observation here is precise & I thank you

Submitted by ADH9er on Wed, 01/06/2016 - 01:54

MrsB

Yes I am the husband.When I am anxious I find that WORDS (as I use them & as I receive them) can heighten my uneasiness. I am able to comprehend my DW's anticipation of my possible angry reaction to whatever she responded with as I am guilty of that failure countless times. However, I also know that if I was looking to deliberately inflict discord, it wouldn't have taken 20 minutes to refine those few words that I chose. The intent for my attempt to communicate via E-mail, was to reduce the possibility of discord without opening my mouth. For the sake of clarity, I need to point out that I vocally Spoke my E-mail to my DW in the morning due to having had sent the original electronic one to the wrong address the night before. Her vocal words were- "I will have to think about it.New Years is difficult for me." Upon her response I offered my apology for not remembering and said I would continue to try.

At no time did I indicate that she would have to be stuck with me alone, or change her plans, or that I feel unloved or unwanted by her family. I messed up with not remembering.

the bottom line: I reached out to offer what I had not in the past, my timing was off & I missed. I am human, & it hurt - everybody...

To ADH9er

Submitted by jennalemone on Wed, 01/06/2016 - 11:37

Your responding entry (above) shows us how the "he said, she said" style of communicating has been happening at your place. If you can't read this long entry because of your ADD, skip down to the "Here is what you could do" part of my response. If you want a third party perspective, read the whole thing.

Your reaction to your wife's issue is a "non intent" legal defense. Maybe you used this forum to garner a reprieve for yourself by excusing yourself with "I didn't mean to" and "what I meant was....". You don't want US to think badly of you and want us to hear "your side" of the story. I absolve you, but I am just an anonymous forum participant. I am guessing you were really responding to your wife with your entry, trying to state your case and put this issue to rest.

There was a statement of your INTENT in your response to us. Instead of negotiating with your wife about the plans for New Year's Eve YOU took control and threw out a first claim "I desire to celebrate ringing in the new year with you." with a twist of coy flirting using the word desire.

So many things are triggers to us after decades of knowing our spouses so well. If you had a history of really desiring her all to yourself and discussing truthfully, her response would have been different. I am guessing that your real reason for the nice invite was to say, iN A BACK-HANDED WAY, that you didn't want to go to the in-laws. You made a preemptive strike claiming the date. She didn't want to start another battle with you. How can she argue against your seemingly innocent invitation? But she is sensing the false claim of desire in addition to your false reason for not going to the family get-together....claiming you desire her. It was really a backhanded slap in the face!

My H does not discuss things with me either. He wants his way and he is not able to vocalize and compromise. We cannot talk about anything without it being an argument. I am aware of the obtuse way he presents things. Everything comes to a stalemate. That means H will do as he wants. My H is a salesman who tries to talk me into buying his innocence using "intent" as one of his excuses/defenses.

If your wife trusted your words, your nice invitation would have been received with a grateful open door to discussing plans rather than a boundary she must put in place for her to have in preparation for the let-downs she has experienced in the past.

Here is what you could do. ONCE A WEEK (for the rest of your marriage), and not on any day where it is customary to have plans with other people, WITH NO ULTERIOR MOTIVES, text her, "I desire to have dinner with you Friday night." Then make a plan WITH HER (don't surprise her...work WITH her) and carry it out.

THEN, next year's new years eve, remember the fiasco of this year. And know that your "first dibs" do not trump a family's holiday plans.

How much strong rhetoric or physical pain do you guys have to have heaped upon you for you to realize you have a family that needs YOUR support and love and ACTION. Not just words and intention!

Welcome to the forum !

Submitted by ADH9er on Wed, 01/06/2016 - 22:40

Jennalemone

truthfully, thank you for your comments. Had I been able to send my thoughts solely to MrsB, I would have. That is who I was addressing. I am brand new not only to this forum, but also to electronic communication altogether. Please know that I am sincerely sorry for having upset you.

ADH9er

Submitted by jennalemone on Thu, 01/07/2016 - 10:13

Tell us about your hurting. Since your wife is on this forum also, I know you may not be able to "let it all out", but, you seem (from Liz's entries of your activities) very much like my H. (read some of my entries about him) I would like to understand more, but he does not talk about anything but jokes. He will not discuss plans or thoughts. Then he is angry because he is not "in the loop". He wants things taken care of but refuses to be a part of the planning committee. He only offers criticism for any plans that are made. He will not let himself be vulnerable. This feels to me like he wants control but doesn't want to share responsibility. It feels like he is keeping things from me..secrets.

You have taken a step further than him in that you are ON this site with some curiosity about your spouse's and our responses here on this forum. Please, speak of the reasons you spent NYE at a work project rather than join the family holiday celebration. It would be very helpful for me to understand my H a little more if you could be forthright and "let me have it with both guns" if you would care to. I was being forcefullly forthright with my response to you for just that reason. I hope you rant it out if you can to me.

I would like H to respond with the hard truths but he won't/can't. To me, it seems like you tried to manipulate the NYE plans coyly, please tell me if I am wrong or right. Spend some thought about the REAL reasons, not the excuses. If you can't write that here and this is too private, you could talk to a counselor and get it out there. I do that too. It seems that H takes his frustrations of the world out on me. He is the class clown to the world, and then comes home and has his emotional revenge here.

It is the "not trying" that is the most disappointing thing that many of us get from our ADD spouses. "Not trying" feels like not caring. We are on this forum because we are at the end of our patience with our spouses. It seems that a spouse must physically LEAVE the house for good before the ADDers finally get their heads to look up and see that they are not contributing enough. But then it is too late. The damage and memories are too much to repair.

Inqury/Flush ?

Submitted by ADH9er on Sat, 01/09/2016 - 23:25

Jennalome,
Started this twice & lost em.Not fun.
Ok, My choosing to put myself in a vulnerable space here is done with the primary objective of bettering myself & hopefully finding answers to move toward healing in my marriage.Should what I share prove advantageous for others in their quests for relational improvement, Great.
That being said, As much as I might enjoy lettin-er-rip, and spew my paradigm , I really DO love my wife, & would find no satisfaction in “consciously “ hurting her. I am a seasoned professional at doing that “unintentionally”.
When I expressed my jitters about joining in here to Melissa, she said she understands that many like me don’t post here because we’re outnumbered & generally more reserved. She suggested I “dip my toe in”. Certainly I recognize that my fledgling entry more resembled putting in my foot, but I did not go for a swim. And as the dreaded tongue lashing arrived, I became aware of something...
* You referenced counseling & issues from our past; counselors =5, issues=numerous, with my most dominant being self-esteem. I think most with ADHD are fully aware,like I was, from a very young age, that we feel (and often are treated as) INFERIOR.
...I must have made some progress, I felt the assumptive jabs, (“forcefull forthrightness”), and I have not fled, or become angry , or became defensive ,and I made an apology .
Thanks Jenna, without realizing it you were instrumental in my gleaning the first HELP from this site. Also, I have met J and your right.

ADH9er.
( I nearly Aced my diagnosis. Aug. 9, 2010 at age 53) 9 out of 10. With a capital H
?

Happy New Year Liz!

Submitted by jennalemone on Thu, 12/31/2015 - 19:12

WITH ALL THE GUMPTION, AND JOYOUS LAUGHTER AND BRILLIANCE YOU CAN POSSIBLY MUSTER. HAVE A HAPPY NEW YEAR'S EVE WITH THE PEOPLE WHO LOVE AND SUPPORT YOU, LIZ!!!!!

I did!

Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on Fri, 01/01/2016 - 22:21

jennalemone,

I did! We rang in the new year by shooting guns off the back porch at our family's farm!

I have great empathy for my spouse's emotional pain. He went to work. He is in the construction field, so he was at a new construction project, all alone, for the most part. I think he mentioned someone from another trade may have been there working too.

Happy New Year to you too!

Very Truly,

Liz.

Weird

Submitted by jennalemone on Sat, 01/02/2016 - 10:52

He went to work at a construction job on New Year's Eve? At night? There may have been someone from another trade there too, you say (he mentioned)? What? Something is odd here. I am glad that you were with people who care for you on New Year's Eve. It is right to take care of your self in this relationship. If he really wanted to spend the night with you (like he said) and help his emotional pain, he would have reached out and clung to you and family.

My H used "depression" to get me to do things his way and give him a very long leash FROM our marriage in our young years. He used my understanding and effort as a sign that he could "do his own thing". It became his way of life. Now he is more like a wayward teenager than a committed partner in a loving, caring relationship. After he got his way with where and how to live our lives and was assured that I would be understanding and supportive even in compromising conditions, he has not had a depressed day....as a matter of fact he giggles ALL the time wierdly. I catered to his "emotional pain". It is odd here.

I used denial and hard work to substitute for my own needs. Now I have regrets that I gave and tried to be understanding too much.

I think it is wise for both of us to find our strength and community. If the H's don't want to be with us doing that, then they are telling us that they believe there are other valuable, important, or fun things elsewhere for them. We should not be content to sit with them in the muck while they are clearly telling us by their actions that they do not value us or marriage.

Nothing odd here

Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on Mon, 01/04/2016 - 01:27

jennalemone,

Crazy work hours are status quo here. I have struggled with it for as long as I can remember. There is no "consistent family" time schedule here. I have been unsuccessful in incorporating effective change or feel cooperation with my efforts. One day there came that infamous straw that broke the camels back. I just dropped the ball on everything that was a losing battle.

It is true I am not willing to participate in any couples' counseling at this time. I need to see some evidence that my spouse understands his overwhelming sadness, and defensiveness, and isolation are bigger issues that need to be addressed first. I am no longer willing to agree that his frustrations are solely because of our relationship. I have said to him that I have great empathy that he is in some sort of pit of despair. I was in there with him, trying to push him out, and it was more than I could bear. So I climbed out, and will continue to cheer him on from up here in the sunshine. I don't like him down in that pit. He has to want to pull him self out. He has told me he is at the end of his rope. That scares the bejeebers out of me. My e-mail appears to have been read as rejection. Yes, I know he worded it carefully. Yet as I see it, it was 2 days before New Year's Eve - really late to be making plans. I had made plans since I know he doesn't want to be around anyone, and I no longer want to just stay at home and miss everything.

I had misread where he was at, and thought this post would encourage him to participate here to maybe get alternatives and suggestions. It was poor judgment on my part. It only managed to cause him emotional distress. I am still trying to force something. Sigh. At it again, Liz, you are at it again.

On the bright side, I did have a wonderful New Year's Eve celebration.

Very truly,

Liz

take care of yourself

Submitted by dvance on Thu, 12/31/2015 - 20:56

I too 100% support your plans...without DH. If you did not have plans with him, you should feel free to make plans on your own. In the past 4 years, I have come to the conclusion that any fun I want to have, I am going to have to make those plans for myself and it turns out most of the fun I have is without DH. He is such a project it's often more exhausting than just staying home. Please let yourself off the hook and enjoy New Year's Eve for YOURSELF. You have put up with enough and should absolutely maintain your boundaries.

I agree that the mentally healthy person usually has to make....

Submitted by overwhelmedwife on Wed, 01/13/2016 - 23:06

....the plans. If I waited for H to make plans for the TWO of us, I'd wait forever. He'll only make plans for himself...go to the gym, go golfing, etc.

I also agree with dvance that it's often more pleasant to go places without them. I recently spent 2 evenings with our sons. It was great. No one was walking on eggshells. We all had fun. When H is around, he's difficult, has to be the center of attention, and is just exhausting.

My kids and I want to go to Europe this summer. NO WAY do we want H to go. He'll want to go because we're going, but it would be a total waste of money. He'd sleep in, complain about crowds and lines, and be a general pain in the ass.

Made me laugh ...

Submitted by Wifelife88 on Sat, 01/02/2016 - 18:34

The same happened last year - my daughter (15) and I wanted to do a road trip to the US. We talked about it for months openly. My H was appalled that we were planning to go for 4 weeks and directly after Xmas. But we soldiered on and still kept openly planning. Two of our other children then decided to come as well. Our only rule was that you had to get up at 8am so we could get on and do things - none of this teenage sleep in until lunchtime nonsense :) H didn't want to come as he stresses travelling with the kids, sleeps in until lunchtime and goes at a much slower pace.

H's issue ultimately was that we didn't ask for his blessing to go. He doesn't recall any of our discussions over dinner. He was in a bad way the entire time we were away, and terrible when we returned.

It was something we really wanted to do. I'm not sure how we could have arranged it and had a more peaceful outcome at home.

It all depends how I choose to look at it. . . . .

Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on Mon, 01/04/2016 - 11:58

overwhelmedwife,

I can say I do have great administrative skills. And wonderful organizational skills. And I understand children. And I can plan, review plans, and then adjust them as necessary to get to a goal. I can also decide when I need to conclude a losing battle.

My spouse is a hard worker - a bit too much as I would venture to say he is a workaholic.

My spouse is creative, and a problem solver.

His workmanship is perfect, each job is a piece of art. A problem comes in when determining what projects are worthy of this type of perfection. I agree with his high standards, as nothing should just be 'good enough.' Yet when it comes to time spent - well it gets to that old joke about "No man ever gets to the Pearly Gates and wishes he had spent more time working and making money."

Looking at each of our strengths is a whole lot more peaceful than thinking I am mentally healthy and he is not. He is in emotional pain. It trips him up a lot.

Early in December, jennalemone posted this:

ONE EVENING, AN ELDERLY CHEROKEE BRAVE TOLD HIS GRANDSON ABOUT A BATTLE THAT GOES ON INSIDE PEOPLE.

HE SAID "MY SON, THE BATTLE IS BETWEEN TWO 'WOLVES' INSIDE US ALL.

ONE IS EVIL. IT IS ANGER, ENVY, JEALOUSY, SORROW,
REGRET, GREED, ARROGANCE, SELF-PITY, GUILT, RESENTMENT, INFERIORITY, LIES, FALSE PRIDE, SUPERIORITY, AND EGO.

THE OTHER IS GOOD. IT IS JOY, PEACE LOVE, HOPE SERENITY, HUMILITY, KINDNESS, BENEVOLENCE, EMPATHY, GENEROSITY,
TRUTH, COMPASSION AND FAITH."

THE GRANDSON THOUGH ABOUT IT FOR A MINUTE AND THEN ASKED HIS GRANDFATHER:

"WHICH WOLF WINS?..."

THE OLD CHEROKEE SIMPLY REPLIED, "THE ONE THAT YOU FEED"

I have had this posted on my kitchen wall for years.

Sincerely, Liz

I did it. . . .

Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on Fri, 01/01/2016 - 22:24

dvance,

I like your wording. I did let myself off the hook. I had an enjoyable New Year's Eve celebration.

I will continue to remind myself that I am doing things for me - not to my spouse.

On to 2016,

Liz

Chiming in here a little late

Submitted by MrsB on Thu, 01/07/2016 - 02:00

Chiming in here a little late but I hope to be helpful: I too have taken on too much responsibility for fixing and handling things in the past. I too have found great strength in learning how to put my boundaries down knowing that I am being true to myself and my needs. I do also want to share, that the tide is turning for my H and myself towards better communication and his taking responsibility for his actions, behaviors and tendencies. Some of the most important lessons I am learning is to honor and understand how deep his shame is. Making statements that inadvertently point out his shortcomings, can be extremely painful for him because he grew up being shamed and berated (and I shamed and berated him in the past for his forgetfulness and procrastination, making assumptions that he just refuses or is selfish). So if I were to apply this lesson to your conversation, I might have said: "I don't know if you remember that I made plans to spend time with my parents. I hear that you would like to spend time with me for the holiday but the plans I have are very important to me. I would like for you to come but I do understand if you are uninterested in joining. Did you have a plan or idea for what you wanted to do with me? Would you be willing to do it the next day?" No need to aggressively point out what was said before or the history of poor planning. Staying in the moment about what is true for you now and moving forward is key. When my H starts to feel badly or rejected, I just repeat it in as neutral of a way as I can. Other practical things that have helped us with planning events is using a joint google calendar where we block out events, tasks, and chores. That has helped immensely when he suggest that we do something on a day we already agreed we would take care of certain things. So instead of saying "why don't you remember that I was going to do x on Saturday," when one of us plans something, we confer and put it on the calendar. The calendar becomes the shared arbiter of truth and agreements rather than me taking the responsibility. This has been a work in progress. When we first started over 6 months ago, he would not look at the calendar and instead ask me about things--still trying to put the heavy lifting/thinking on me. Eventually I would just say, look at the calendar first. Finally in the last couple of months, he looks first and then approaches me with things that he would like to do or plan via google invites. I think this approach has allowed him to feel empowered and capable to plan and make dates. I imagine, that if you were to put something like that in place, your NYE plans could have been on the calendar "Mom's House for NYE." If he asked you to do something on NYE, you could say, "I already said yes to going to mom's. Its on the calendar." It is alot more neutral than saying, "I told you already..." What I have learned is that one effect of the parent-child dynamic that happens in an ADHD affected relationship, is that his threshold for feeling inadequate and incompetent is pretty low and if I want to preserve and heal the marraige, I have to be very, very sensitive to that while keeping to my truth. I/We also have to adopt ways of communicating and functioning that accounts for his poor memory, procrastination, poor timing, and emotional triggers (primarily shame). As time as passed, the more I allow for those things, while still being clear about my needs, sticking to my goals/plans, and maintaining my boundaries, the more willing he is to address his functioning and take responsibility for himself. However, it does take practice to get it right. ADH9er, I am not going to make assumptions about your intent, or your subconscious, ulterior motivations. It isn't clear that you were trying to throw out "first dibs" to me. I don't think accusations or interpretations of your thinking are appropriate or useful. However, my recommendation is to do alot of work around your shame and your own wants and needs. Learn how to recognize them for yourself so that you can be clear in expressing them and your wife can hear them in a non-threatening way. The better my husband has learned to recognize his wants and needs, and to hear and understand that I can't always meet them, and that he is responsible for taking care of his own emotional needs, and that he can make requests of me without expectations, and that he can forgive himself for his shortcomings--he has begun to feel empowered to make changes, and feel better about himself. Hope that you will do some therapy.

MrsB.....Not Assuming...

Submitted by kellyj on Thu, 01/07/2016 - 07:23

is a good skill to practice here on both sides. I like what you said here..."I think this approach has allowed him to feel empowered and capable to plan and make dates. I imagine, that if you were to put something like that in place, your NYE plans could have been on the calendar "Mom's House for NYE." If he asked you to do something on NYE, you could say, "I already said yes to going to mom's. Its on the calendar." It is alot more neutral than saying, "I told you already..." What I have learned is that one effect of the parent-child dynamic that happens in an ADHD affected relationship, is that his threshold for feeling inadequate and incompetent is pretty low and if I want to preserve and heal the marraige, I have to be very, very sensitive to that while keeping to my truth. I/We also have to adopt ways of communicating and functioning that accounts for his poor memory, procrastination, poor timing, and emotional triggers (primarily shame). As time as passed, the more I allow for those things, while still being clear about my needs, sticking to my goals/plans, and maintaining my boundaries, the more willing he is to address his functioning and take responsibility for himself. However, it does take practice to get it right.

Taking what you said a step further agreeing with you here......On behalf of those of us who have ADHD.....a lot of things can actually be happening at any given point in time. In reality....sometimes, we just make mistakes or forget things just like everyone else. But there are times when I will forget to do something that my wife has asked of me ....and when I forget to do it in this case....it's not from forgetting or having a poor memory or even making a mistake or an error in my thinking or judgment. Sometimes (in fact....more times than not) it has to do with losing track of time for example.....a common problem I have associated with my ADHD.

Did I forget in this case? No. I just lost track of time. A completely different thing than forgetting but......that's not what it looks like. How do you explain that to someone? Since I have been tracking these things long enough to actually be catching myself in the moment when things happen and have noted the reasons why when they do.....I have been amazed at how well I know now exactly the cause and can pin point the reasons why.

And like I said....not everything can be blamed on ADHD. Sometimes it's just a brain fart or over looking something just like everyone else. Those happen too which makes it even more difficult for anyone else seeing my behaviors to be able to determine this for themselves. The simple fact is....that they can't. If they assume they know or attribute the wrong reason or cause for something and act on that assumption as if they know.....this is a real source of irritation if you are actually paying attention to these things and are able to do this for yourself (having ADHD that is).

If you can't do what I just said....it makes it difficult to talk about these things and explain them to someone else and be talking with some authority and be accurate in what you are saying. The problem here is that these things are somewhat "invisible" to the naked eye observing these things from the outside. That includes knowing what stage in the learning curve you are in even after you become aware of them. Other people can't know this either.

Using myself here an addressing some of things you said which are a perfect way to illustrate this for example. In your H's case....I'm sure you are the best recourse to know specifically what is working and what is not so I can't speculate for him. For myself however....extrapolating a bit further in my comment about things being invisible or unseen to the naked eye....

I'm no longer sensitive to these things at all....in fact, pointing out anything about my ADHD does not cause me any great amount of stress, anger or much of a reaction at all. This has not always been the case however. Before I ever met my wife in my past before I knew I had ADHD.....my responses and reactions to these things were quite a bit different than they are right now. And yet....my wife and I still run into conflicts when we try and communicate together. Even if I don't react or say anything at all sometimes.....I am left with the impression that my wife assumes the worst or misinterprets my behaviors and attributes them to something else instead.

The losing track of time vs forgetting is a perfect case in point. I know without question why this "particular thing" got overlooked since I have been practicing observing myself for so long....and in reference to what you said here in your comment about what you have learned not to do...."I think this approach has allowed him to feel empowered and capable....... It is a lot more neutral than saying, "I told you already..."

"I told you so already"......doesn't really apply to the situation at all. And which one is it? Did I forget....or did I lose track of time? They are distinctly different reasons and either one can be any number of things including simply getting behind schedule and having unexpected things get in your way which in that case....it's neither one of these things and just circumstance. There's a third legitimate reason why any one thing might not get done as it should have in this example.

And the only way for you to know is for the person who has it to tell you and then trust them to be telling you the truth or that they are accurate in what they are saying. Ah....but not theres that trust thing and the lying. Another complication that has more to do with ADHD and simply being unaware or not seeing things at times than it does with being dishonest or deceitful. In my case at least.....I can easily eliminate those two options right from the start.

But that being said......if I say I will do something and forget, lose track of time, am a victim of circumstance or just plain tired and overlooked it just like everyone else does on occasion.....the frequency of these things not getting done when I say they will makes me look like I am not telling the truth and that I am lying. In respect to being not being honest or not being able to be relied on in following through and counting on me to do these things at the time when I am suppose to based on what I said.......the last two things that are on the list of reasons of "why" these things didn't get done are: not being able to be trusted, being dishonest (not telling the truth) or forgetting. In my example....the real ADHD reason of why in this case.....is my inability to pay attention to the time and not lose track of when I hyper focus.

It only takes a few minutes to make yourself late for something so even if I am paying attention all day vigilantly (perfectly without failing to watch and pay attention to time)but when I hyper focus or get distracted with something and lose track of time for only a short period of time say ....five or ten minutes.... that's enough right there to make me late and put me behind or not get that one thing done that I said I would.

So......did I forget? No. Did I lie and not tell the truth. No. Was I a victim of circumstance? (legitimately blame it on something else) No. Did I hyper focus for ten minutes even though I made it through the rest of the day without a hitch but this "blip" or failure to catch myself in that ten minute period of time caused me to lose track of time and miss my window to do that thing when I needed to do it? Yes.....that's the reason in this "one" scenario.

That is why it so important not to assume. Any one of these explanations can and do happen on any given day or at any time and they all would be correct if that is really what happened and it is really the cause for something not getting done or missed in these incidences.

As like I said......what is also not seen by the naked eye is how that person is reacting to this over sight and dealing with it themselves. In my case....being sensitive or approaching me with kid gloves is not so much my issue but that's only because I am that far along in the learning curve. There is a tendency it appears....to keep going back to the way...."things use to be" and apply that to your reasoning from the non's perspective....in reality (with me now again)....I'm in the process of just practicing and getting better at catching myself. I'm way down the learning curve and know all of this already. But just because you know all of this doesn't mean you can catch yourself every time until you have had enough attempts and practice at these things and forming a habit and getting the "failure rate" or number of times you don't succeed to drop down to an acceptable level.

This isn't an ADHD process at this point.....it's a universal one that everyone experiences any time you are attempting to change your habits or patterns of behavior and it take some time to get it down and under your belt in each area that you are working on improving.

And yet......in those moments.....the comments like "I told you already!!!"...in an irritated or chastising way not only doesn't apply....and even if it doesn't cause some negative chain reaction or spiral or a fight......it's still just annoying and it feels like someone poking at you with a needle. Needling is the perfect word.

Not needling, not assuming and not reacting and jumping to conclusions are things that aren't productive and serve no good function what so ever on either side of these issues and yet..... they are probably the source for 90% of these conflicts that could have been avoided by simply not doing these things to start with.

And in light of what you are saying about your H......I'm sure you are right when it comes to him. You've learned that he IS more sensitive to these things emotionally and that is also another consideration that you have to make allowances for even if it is not the same for me.

The only way to know? Don't make assumptions and learn to better communicate to each other and be accurate and coherent in what you are saying. It never stops being irritating for me (to this day) on my end now......when I know exactly what caused me to miss something (like in my example with losing track of time)...and being accused of forgetting or not caring or doing it for any number of reasons that my wife could come up with and know that shes wrong. That too....I just have to let go of in those moments. What is not important is making sure she is correct or that she never assumes or makes misinterpretations of my behavior and does this with out ever making a mistake as well.

In the big picture and in the long run.....both people need to know these things.....but in the moment and either person is not "right" or is "wrong" has little or nothing to do with what is most important after all. Avoiding conflict and fighting over minutia are two of those things that IS more important...... to do....and not to do respectively.

Your insight and your ability to see past things things is awesome. If you don't assume and just stay neutral in your language....that is really all you have to do to stay out of trouble on your end. You don't need to figure him out or try and determine the cause of his behaviors. The better he becomes at practicing and noticing with some allowance for failure built in right from the start.....he will be better able to watch and pay attention to these things so he will be able to articulate them to you and not be "lying" or rationalizing his own behavior once he gets that chance. It makes it that much easier to narrow things down to a just a handful of simple rules to follow that will server your relationship in healing the past....... better than most anything you could do. Kudos!!

Jameson,

Submitted by MrsB on Thu, 01/07/2016 - 10:55

Jameson,

That is a great response. I think it is really important that 2 people really make a sincere effort to understand each other's experience. That is where we each have to take the time to recognize and understand it for ourselves and learn how to express it non accusatorily or shamingly to the other. There is a cognitive bias, especially when we are feeling very injured, to be immersed in our own experience and to avoid considering that the other has a completely different experience. But if your goal is to have a relationship vs. be right, that is the best path. Practicing holding on to your internal experience and truth (NVC language has been extremely useful here), while also practicing recognizing in as non-judgmental of a way as possible that the other person has a different one is important.

From my end, it has been very important that my husband understand that his behaviors have had an impact on my ability to trust him and that my responses are based on that history and pattern. It has also been very important that I practice recognizing when I am being triggered or emotionally escalated by his behavior, before responding or reacting. There is alot that needs to happen on many levels for the tide to turn, but I try (and I think he does too) to focus on the things I can do to help myself stay grounded and not overwhelmed with anger or pain.

Yep....I Wholeheartedly Concur

Submitted by kellyj on Thu, 01/07/2016 - 11:57

One more allowance that I forgot to mention that is a real one from the side of having ADHD. There is a case to be made for just having a bad day and not being up to it and just needing to take a break. This has nothing to do with ADHD....it's just what we all experience from time to time. Being respectful to that and taking the other person for face value in those moments is really important too.

Getting to that point and establishing those boundaries is a good place to start. My wife and I have done this with each other and when she says "stop"....I've tried to respect her in those moments no matter what I want from her in those moments. Some kind of "safe word" or indicator that you agree upon ahead of time and then agree to honor that request. This really works. Mostly.....nothing is that important that it can't wait until tomorrow to talk about when some time has passed and emotions are not high:)

Having ADHD or not....some days you are just not up to it and need a chance to recover before going after again. That includes slip ups on those days too....another legitimate reason for not always doing something that is not applicable to ADHD specifically. The communication part is the only way this can happen:)

Credit where it is due, and appreciated

Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on Thu, 01/07/2016 - 14:46

I am encouraged by the willingness of my spouse to join our conversations. In my posts, I have been working hard to accomplish sharing Liz and my paradigm of our relationship. I will continue to share my feelings, and how interactions feel and appear and work for me. From my end. From the communication stand point - I can share with my spouse how conversations affect and feel to Liz. If something is funny from my point of view. Or not.

"A difference of taste in jokes is a great strain on the affections." ~George Eliot~

If I do not think something is funny, I do not want to feel intimidated, shamed, or belittled, into thinking I am wrong, too-sensitive, or thinned skinned. I have people in my extended family who are very racist - against many ethnic groups. I am Polish and enjoy a good Polish joke. When they cross the line into being vulgar or derogatory, then I no longer want to listen. It is all about respecting Liz for what Liz believes, and honoring her for being her. I 100% stand in agreement that when you get right down to it - it is all about intention. I agree wholeheartedly my spouse's intent was to express his desire to spend NYE with me. That is a very small part of the dynamics here.

Sincerely,

Liz

The absence of presumptive judgement is appreciated

Submitted by ADH9er on Thu, 01/07/2016 - 09:55

Your chiming has fallen on receptive and adaptable ears.

ADH9er ....Presumptive Judgement

Submitted by kellyj on Thu, 01/07/2016 - 13:01

A quick response to this from my own experience. For you....it will serve to you to live with a fair amount of presumptive judgment on all levels no matter where you go or who you are with. Our inability to move past those moments is the very thing that will only cause more trouble. You are talking to Mr Passive Aggressive here. I learned to do this in the past because I learned to make a joke out of these moments when I was young and be funny at the same time in a way to defuse the situation. That being said.......it served me at one time but it does not serve me now. My ability to be a comedian in those moments when I was growing up was out a need for survival and not knowing any better. It did serve to save me many times by just being funny in the face of a volatile situation to defuse it.....it did nothing to resolve anything or prevent it from happening again. I have more come back lines than I care to admit and it's easy to default to those without paying attention to it.

Passive aggression is still aggressive and it's just another version or anger coming out in a different way. Funny yes.....angry and hostile.....still yes.

Another one you might not think of as being anger is impatience. I was surprised when I discovered that impatience is a cousin of anger and still comes through subliminally as aggression.

Just because it's funny or doesn't look like anger directly.....doesn't mean that it isn't perceived that way.

One that I don't do (almost never because I am aware of this now) but really hate it when others do it....is to say "I was just kidding"

"No your not.....you just excused yourself for making an offhand shitty remark all in the same sentence so that's somehow alright?" It kind of sounds like it is....but in reality.....that shitty comment is what still comes though. Another example of why being passive aggressive only pisses other people off:)

So living with the feeling you get when other people judge you and not responding back unless the situation really calls for it......but in general....not trying the fight the whole world because they don' understand what they are saying or why we do things sometimes is just part of having ADHD. That's the part about yourself that you just have to accept and not let that show if you want to get along with other people and not walk around with a chip on your shoulder or be hyper sensitive to criticism.

Defensiveness is also tied to anger even indirectly. "I was just kidding" doesn't work there either. lol

J - are you related to YODA ?

Submitted by ADH9er on Thu, 01/07/2016 - 20:43

I sure hope you are given an honorable mention in the next award winning book on adult ADHD.

Your masterful dissection and untangling of the ADHD universe to bring to cognitive language, the "invisible" dynamics that spawn such havoc and suffering amongst us, well it's Brilliant. Nannu-Nannu ! & thanks.

In other words, I am great full for being able to see aspects of some of my lifelong puzzle-ers in your comments.

A scene from the movie 'Interstellar' provided me with a profound VISUAL to some of the challenges of my ADHD existence. I am curious of your take on my self-interpretation.

Near the end of the film the main character found himself in an alternate Dimension called the 'TESSERACT'.

for me; The muted separation - desperate desire to communicate - anger & frustration of searching for an answer - while navigating the incredible labyrinth of thoughts/realities, all the while having no choice but to (at times helplessly)witness the unhappiness & suffering those I love must endure in choosing to love me.

Whew! That was exhausting. Anyway I hope to continue to gain insight and Hope with reading here.

LOL...."Inquisitive You Are.....But Answers You Have Not";)

Submitted by kellyj on Fri, 01/08/2016 - 14:01

Whew! Is right. It's hard work trying to figure all of this out. Yoda I am not. lol But I have had the opportunity and the time put in to have figured a few things out for myself. I also have discovered ( coming here to this forum as being one good resource ) that the images you have of yourself were also ones that I have shared personally in my past but no longer have anymore. The only reason for this is that I have found answers to all those questions about myself in a way that I can understand it. In a nut shell......that is what you need to do to I think. It seems the more answers I have available to me that can explain why I do the things I do.....the less it bothers me and the more I stop worrying about it anymore. That just free's you up to think about other things and put many of those worries and concerns to rest once and for all. The problem with having ADHD is that certain things just don't fit.....but in reality.....sometimes we don't fit (you don't fit) in every situation you find yourself in. If you look at this on a personal level and take this all personally like you are doing (and I have done in my past)....and apply all the negative feedback you get and have gotten from others throughout your life each time you find yourself in another place where you don't "fit"......it starts to take it's toll on your self esteem.

And now weh you are in a relationship with another person and have childerend (I don't know if you have any or not?) and you find yet....more times when things don't work and you don't "fit" again and now you have your wife or circumstance screaming at you again......"your not fittting!!!!!" Once again......you find yourself right back where you started with the same unanswered questions and unresolved feelings and emotions that you had right from the git go......it just keeps happeing again and again with no end in sight.......like a bad dream or nightmare that keeps coming back to haunt you? Sound about right?

There are reasons for this that can be explained. Everything you just described is normal. Normal that is for someone with ADHD.....but taking this a step further.....in theory hypothetically speaking.....if someone who did not have ADHD and then suddenly something happened to them that would create the same situation happening inside their brain......they would be a basket case and probably be sent to an Asylum for completely losing their mind.

Why you ask? Good question. lol Because we have a lifetime of skills and adaptive strategies that we have developed to counter act this anomelous and sometimes elusive (or invisible) barriers inside our brains and have adapted to them and have found a miriad of ways to work around these limitations that our ADHD imposes on us inside the workings of our brains.

In other words.....we have adapted beautifully to these anomalies and have found possibly thousands of different ways around these bridges that are out in certain respects and created a host of detours and re-routes in order to compensate for these obstacles and have had a lifetime (so far) to do these things. In respect to this.......we are amazing for being able to do this in the first place and have done an incredible job at filling in the gaps and finding different alternatives and solutions to things that most other people would never even have to think about.....ever. Why......they don't have to do it because it just happens fir them automatically. In a simplified way of seeing this......they have "no skills" in these areas simply because they have never been put into a situation where they couldn&#39't just do something without having to think about it or really having to try since it's just something that most other people take for granted since....that's how most other people are made.

It's not like there is something completely wrong or malfunctioning in our brains.....it's more like a "monkey wrench" that fell between a couple a gears in the mechanism that is fouling everything else up....but, there are ways to make the machine work anyway and very well on top of it...... but that information is not in the "Users Guide" that we learn when we are growing up.......or even in the "trouble shooting" section of the "Maintenance and Repair" section at the back of the booklet that everyone is given that helps you pin point where the malfunction is coming from. lol

And since there is no exact "how to guide book" on life and how to work around these anomalies we are faced with......without anyone else there to help or give any good advise in how to do this......we've done this on our own and mostly.....pretty well indeed all things considered.

That why in my hypothetical theory....a person without all these skills and experience who suddenly found themselves in the same predicament...they would come apart at the seems and completely lose their minds if that were suddenly to happen to them. To start with.....you should give yourself some credit and a pat on your back for that much at the very least. From all that I have discovered about this.....it's almost scary in what an amazing thing that we have to do and then pull it off on a daily basis all things considered. And with all due respect to those who don't have it.....there is no way for them to know any of this either since it falls outside of their experience in any way shape or form. They only know what they know.....they simply cannot know what this is like and all the reasons why.

For you......I think the most important step you need to take is accepting this. If you can accept that this is how you are made and what you are up against....I think it makes it that much easier a process in finding out all the ways you have done amazing things already....and then use those skills that you have that other people don't and use those to your advantage....both in the real world and in your inner world of yourself and who you are.

Actually.....as I discovered myself.......where I thought I had to discover "who I was" since other people kept telling me I was different than I thought I was and believed them.....when I went about trying to find out "who I was" and not base this on other people....I found myself right back where I started. Who I am has never changed. I am no different than who I thought I was all along and in that respect.....I was actally looking for answers to the wrong thing.

That's when I discovered that what I really was searching for were answers to "how I work"....and the ways that I "function". That's what's different. Dysfunction is only a word to describe a normal person who does not function properly. But that's looking at it from a normal perspective and seeing it through that lens (or course...that part is pretty obvious)....but from and ADHD perspective......what is normal for everyone else is not normal for us. We just have a different "normal" and with that comes areas that we don't do things quite the same as other people do them. This isn't on a thinking or emotional level I'm talking about...but more just a alternative method in the way we function best. But if we are put into a position where we are trying to follow the lead of someone who is"quote,unquote"..."Normal"........and use that as our determination of who we are and how we are suppose to be....that gets in the way of simply finding out "how we work" and "how we function best" and then use that as our guide instead. The "Maintenance and Repair Manual and User Guide" for those of us who have ADHD.

The only real problem you have is not having your own user guide and repair and maintenance hand out and have been operating by trying to use the wrong service manual for the wrong model number machine. That's all:) Other than that.....your awesome. If you apply all that awesome-nous and the skills you have already but now.... in a different way than you have learned from before.....you can make up for the few areas that just don&#39't suit you well and just work on those areas that have the wrong effect on other people. Really.....that is what you have been attempting to do all your life.....you just didn't't have any real answers to the problems and difficulties you have faced to know the right things to do and when. But you can learn.

That's all you need to do. It's that easy and that very m very difficult to do at the same time. The hardest part is just to find the answers to these thing first....the rest is just doing the things you discover you need to do and then following though with it and retraining yourself as you go. None of this is easy....but conceptually....it's pretty simple. There really is not great mystery in that much or what I just said.

The other major obstacle in the way of this are the things that other people have told you about yourself that are wrong and you still believe them. That has to go first before you can do anything else.

When someone says to you "when they were handing out the brains......you thought they said "trains" and told them you didn't want any".....think to yourself (or tell them as needed lol)......."takes one to know one....and no....I have ADHD.".....and leave it right there. lol

Math Pills

Submitted by ADH9er on Sun, 01/10/2016 - 19:58

J
Would you be willing to share your adaptations/evolution,(if applicable), with medications?
My Rx journey ; starting late in 2010, first Ritalin, then Celexa,then Adderall and for the last year 40mg Vivance. Along with 300mg Welbutrin. And let's not forget the supplements; a multivitamin w/ minerals, 1200mgGABA, 3000mgRed Krill Oil,(switched from fish oil cause it was getting to me - all day long),535mg Blackcurrant Oil,& I top it off w/ 400mg Co Q-10.
With a consistency of approximately 90% of the time. (How the hell do I Forget to take the stuff that helps me Remember, and not loose site of my ‘happy-place’?) {redundant } The developing side-effects suck. Low grade continuous headache & sleep issues.
I am heading to my physician on Tuesday to try again, maybe back to Adderall, only the Xtended this time.maybe she will have a suggestion.I feel like a Pharmacological lab rat.
To be clear, please don’t think i’m asking for you (or anyone else reading here) to direct me. I am searching if there is something out there, or a combination I am unaware of. To be run past and be verified by my Rx.

Thanks, ADH9er

Medication is a Crutch ADH9er

Submitted by kellyj on Mon, 01/11/2016 - 12:07

Most people when thinking about the word "crutch" ....think of in a negative connotation as a sign of weakness. Possibly something to endure until you heal enough to be able to walk without it. In our case....it is something we need for ever and there is no day when you heal in that respect. I've heard that some people choose to go off of it after they have time for it do it's job and give you the relief and a new perspective to make he changes necesary....and then once that happens they feel they don't need it anymore. When my prescriber first told me this....and then later when I started feeling guilty that I really needed it and this wasn't happening with me....I began to feel a little guilty and like something was even more wrong with me if I were to be compared to those other people. I brought this up again later and she and my T both said the same thing..."if it works and it continues to work but without it, it doesn't....then that's a pretty easy decision to make. This made me feel much better about it and I don't worry about how long or if I will ever not need to be on it anymore. The stress and anxiety of just that much took that off my plate of things to worry about and I don't at all. My "crutch" is necessary as long as I need it and it's working. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth as they say.

But as the word "crutch" is used that way as a negative in common vernacular..... it doesn't have to be or better.....you don't have to see it this way even if other people do. That's not up to them to decide if it works or doesn't....only you will know if it does and if it doesn't and you don't feel the difference or the side effects are worse than the benefit.....only you can make that determination for yourself. What you don't want to do is to take someone else's advise or opinions on that much whether they are negative or positive. It's your body....you have a right to choose if it is something that is working or not and make that decision for yourself. It isn't abortion we're talking about here and it isn't that controversial a topic. If you think of it as what defines you or that it's just another unpleasant reminder that you have ADHD and the struggles that go along with it....it can cause you to think of it negatively and you won't remember to do it. Just another thing to avoid and procrastinate and not want to think about if that's the case. This includes thinking of a crutch as something to be ashamed of or be embarrassed to use if it's something you need.

Having said that....the side effects........

In that respect and not saying this to be proud of......it's not my first time at the Rodeo. lol I've never been one to have a predisposed affinity towards pharmaceuticals in my past and mostly avoided them even when I was experimenting in my youth.....but having said that....I did experiment as the opportunity arose. No matter what you introduce into your body for what ever reason.....what ever happens, happens. Those so called "side effects" are a clever way or marketing a chemical compound to make you think that this is all it is suppose to do. BULLSHIT!! It does a lot of things not listed in the big print. The little print is there for a reason.....on some level....those things happen too!!!!

What you don't want to do is keep changing and stopping and starting something new or not stay on one thing consistently until you have a chance to see what happens after your body gets use to it.....and what I mean by that is for a good long time and just ride that pony until it stops bucking. You won't know that until you give it chance and ride out all the side effects until the dust settles.

The advise or approach I would tell you or anyone else is not what they did with me at first. What they did was prescribe me two things at once...Adderall and Prozac. This was a mistake in my humble opinion. How can you know what is doing what and which side effect is causing which thing.....plus, the interactions they are having together. At least in my case....I did have the drug experience from my past (Cocaine and Speed) when it was offered. Like I said....neither one I gave much credence too because I couldn't figure out what the big deal was????lol I understand this better now which in some ways....was really good that I had those experiences.

Having said that....it served to give me a base line to work from and know what was happening with me. No one gives you a Cocaine hand out at the time when you take it normally. lol You're kind of left to figure these things out as you go on your own which eventually you do without any help from an outside source to cloud the issue. This ended up being a very good thing for me at least since I wasn't compelled to go seek it or keep using it on any kind of regular basis. I did have a few friends who were bitten by it and that did become a problem for them for sure. I just did it when it was offered and kind of went along for the ride as they say.

What I am trying to say here is you have to be the one to judge and decide for yourself but it makes it difficult to do when you have more than one drug in your system at a time until you understand each one intimately and know exactly what they are doing to you. You can't know this or go off of anyone else in this case including what the doctors or other patients who might give testimonials about it's effectiveness and the side effects. Especially the so called "side effects".

In my mind....there is really no such thing. An what they are and which ones that you will experience are dependent of any number of things that are as individual in respect to your ability to tolerate them as you are different in any other respect. Your ability to deal with these changes and how they affect you will vary on your ability to pay attention to the changes and know where they are coming from and why.

It's hard enough to do this with one drug at a time let alone two. In my case.....I stopped using the Prozac because it didn't seem to do anything but make me feel flat and lifeless after a while. Once I stopped taking the Prozac....things started happening rather quickly. If they had done just the opposite and had me start taking it once I was already acclimated to the Adderall...I would have figure this out much sooner and that would have avoided a lot of this confusion for me right from the start.

It's this acclimating process that is the most difficult at first. At first it's the physical parts or side effects.....after that....it's the mental ones. The mental ones are the ones that continue to happen as long as you keep taking it. This is something you have to become good at doing yourself and know your body well enough to know when and how much to take....

To the point...... and I don't even recommend you or anyone else do this for themselves unless you are at the point of being very good at noticing these things. On a daily basis.....I adjust my dosages in tiny amounts to try and keep myself dialed in. To do this....I break up my pills and even snort them sometimes. This sounds like what someone would do just to get high but that's not why I do it. I have found to the point....that how they are ingested changes the effect and how long they last and with snorting them in the afternoon at certain times and not others.....the effect comes on right when I need it...and it tapers off more quickly for later in the evening when I want it to. I can dial my dosage and the timing much more accurately by doing it this way and I do it....as needed.

Bottom line....it's your body and you are the one taking them. It's up to you to make that decision and then find out what ever works best for you. In my case for example.....if snorting the works best on some days and not others....then so be it. Who's to say if this works or doesn't better than me?

Be your own advocate and find out for yourself and listen and watch your own body and what you are doing at all times. Being self aware is also being body aware at the same time. You need to do both in order to know exactly what you are doing and when your should be doing it when you are talking about taking drugs for any reason. It's the only responsible thing to do IMHO.

'Crutch-ADD-just-ment

Submitted by ADH9er on Wed, 01/13/2016 - 00:33

Was that you & DW saying Hi to Melissa on the Couples Seminar? What a talented, caring advocate She is for us 'all'.

Thanks for the meds info; I have put your comments in my pipe to smoke for a while! L0L

While reading through your comments, I think for the third time, I saw something out of the corner of my (neurological) eye. One of those Invisible Monkey Wrenches you mentioned in your post.

I have been, since 2011ish expending a great deal of time & energy,

i.e. Counselors,Meds,Coaching,extremely Painful Alterations of ME, to GET WITH THE PROGRAM. As I am wiggling on that gear clogger, my preponderance is that quite possibly I have made the error of striving to achieve this in order to please the PROGRAM DIRECTOR, rather than MYSELF first. Thus my performance has been diminished by; I can't make her Happy,- why can't I get it rite?- I only have so much to give, my heart aches unceasingly.

So today I am re-framing it.

I look to gain as many of the practical, achievable 'lessons' contained in Melissa's Seminar that this grey matter of mine can hold.

ADH9er

Yes, All the Above ADH9er

Submitted by kellyj on Wed, 01/13/2016 - 07:24

Yes...that was me you heard last night. My wife and I signed up and are currently taking Melissa's course:) And yes.....she is a walking wealth of information plus....she has the ability to cross lines on both sides and speak to everyone with an even hand. The part you mentioned about trying to please your partner (or Program director) was something she addressed briefly in her lecture especially about the time it takes to see progress and results compared to the energy and effort we put in to making changes. I think the way she worded it is that the non ADHD partner tends to get "anxious" to see things happening right away (for obvious reasons) in the example of drugs and treatment options and thinking that it should start working within a couple of weeks for example......when in reality (and realistically)....to really start reaping the benefits of all these things taking hold and working can actually take more like a 1 to 1 1/2 years to get things in control and working consistently.

Funny thing......I have used the words "consistently, inconsistent" myself here on this forum and with others in the past to describe myself and what it feels like at times and she mentioned those exact words herself to describe her husband from witnessing him from her point of view. I'm now feeling even more confident in telling you the same thing. Getting everything to work and then staying that way consistently is probably the biggest challenge in any of this for us. Looking at everything together as a whole, and all that goes along with it......this takes time on our end and patience on the part of our partners.

And since there seems to be a gap here in between the time it takes for us and the ability to wait and be patient on the parts or our spouses.....inherently speaking, our spouses are not always necessarily going to be happy during this entire process. Even if you are putting in the effort and making valid attempts at trying to ease tensions and working on yourself at the same time. This is a juggling act that I am also very familiar with.....to the point.....there are only so many balls that anyone is capable of juggling at any given time depending on a lot of variables and individual abilities. The only way to add more balls and keep them in the air is to do it one at a time and practice that long enough until you can do it without losing control and dropping them all on the ground.

It takes time, willingness, motivation and practice to be successful at it. When ever I think of this the song "Garden Party" by Rick Nelson always pops into my head......"I learned my lessons well....you see, you can't please everyone...so ya, got to please yourself".

When it comes to being consistent and staying that way and being able to maintain your willingness and the motivation to do it......no truer words I think can be found and done so quite eloquently to boot:)

PS...Just a mention of something she said last night ADHD9er......the mention that learning and focusing of these things are great but to the point....at some time you need to actually put them into practice and start doing them as much as possible. There are fine lines to everything and those you need to pay attention to ....speaking for myself as much as anyone else in this case as well.

God's timing

Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on Wed, 01/13/2016 - 15:56

ADH9er,

I am very supportive of you participating in the current couple's sessions. We originally took this class together in 2012. I am encouraged by your openness and willingness to seek answers. Truth is, it never was my job to try to make/keep you happy. It never was your job to try to make/keep me happy. Once your happiness is found from within - - then, then, then we can see what relationship issues we can conquer.

Your invitation to me to participate with you in these current session's was the night before these sessions started. At the current time, my 2016 Spring semester college classes are every Tuesday afternoon and evening until the end of May.

I believe I had also verbally responded to you regarding choosing not to participate in Couple's Work - at the present time - due to my ongoing frustration as I am met with denial to issues - which I see expressed through anger/defensiveness. What I seek: to see willingness/openness/acceptance/understanding.

What I am seeking, based on information that was gleaned from out original sessions:

". . . . .he has his ADHD under control enough that he is reliable in the relationship - i.e.

that he is more than 90% on time
able to complete what he says
able to remember what he should be doing
able to communicate with you when he isn't going to do something before it becomes a crisis
has the anger in check, etc etc
until then he, should be focused on HIM, and not on you.

You were also encouraged with these words: ". . . . he should IGNORE your opinions and negative stance and go about the business of getting his ADHD under control. If he did that, you would likely follow."

"It generally does take both people moving away from their entrenched positions for a couple to be successful."

When we participated in the Gary Smalley sessions many years ago, I remember a truth that I embrace:

There must be me, and there must be you, before there can be us.

Very truly,

With my utmost sincerity,

Liz

J this is another key statement by you; that I will add too:)

Submitted by c ur self on Sun, 01/10/2016 - 23:40

(The problem with having ADHD is that certain things just don't fit.....but in reality.....sometimes we don't fit (you don't fit) in every situation you find yourself in. If you look at this on a personal level and take this all personally like you are doing (and I have done in my past)....and apply all the negative feedback you get and have gotten from others throughout your life each time you find yourself in another place where you don't "fit"......it starts to take it's toll on your self esteem.)

J in my humble opinion this is a key statement and I would add that when we don't fit (adhd or not) it's how we handle these situations that can lead to a negative impact on our self esteem...I think many people will simple realize they are out of place, or in over their heads, or it's just a situation they need to be quiet in until it passes....But I think certain personality types and adhd minds will draw attention to themselves (ourselves) because of how we react when we find we don't fit...So we get judged by our actions or reactions...Thus the awkward feelings and we start questioning ourselves, doubt ourselves and like you say emotional baggage develops as this process unravels in our minds.....Sadly in my humble opinion certain personality types,add/adhd minds included, will eventually move into denial to stem the pain and hopelessness they feel. Unless like you they learn to recognize and navigate the process and have awareness and confidence that they can handle it...

Chasing the Dragons Tail C

Submitted by kellyj on Mon, 01/11/2016 - 11:06

Instead of turning it around and taking the bull by the horns ( or Dragon if you will ) and stop being defensive. Stop being defensive is key. What you described about some of the people with ADHD or certain personality types is also key to defensiveness. What they are doing by staying in denial is still just another defense. Drop the defensive, drop the denial and meeting your problems head on is what this expression is saying. That is also called taking responsibility for yourself and doing something about it.....doing = action of some kind.

If what you are doing is defensive in any way......you are wasting your time and energy just being defensive. That is doing something after all.....it's just not what you should be doing and wasting precious energy at the same time.

J, my husband is passive agressive

Submitted by dedelight4 on Thu, 01/07/2016 - 21:10

I am very interested in what you said about passive aggressiveness. My husband is very much this way. Yes, he can be funny, VERY funny. But, mostly, his anger comes out in stinging passive aggressive remarks, in which he says, "I was only kidding". He has hurt more people with this kind of "funny", and embarrassed me in front of many people doing this. (trying to be funny) The remarks are always at MY expense though. It truly shows his anger towards me (or himself) when he does this. But, he continually excuses it, by saying it's just HIS way of being funny. It's not funny, it's been very hurtful and alienating all these years. I'm glad that you recognized that you had done this, and now choose to do differently. What a great thing. He hasn't learned this and still stays in denial about it.

And, like you said, he's made some really "shitty" remarks towards me and our girls, and then gets angry if our feelings are hurt, or if we ask him why he said what he said. It's really sad that he chooses to stay in denial about his severe ADHD, and chooses NOT to work on any of it. He only takes Concerta, but now he's not even doing that. He "forgets" to take his pills almost every day now, and his focus is so WAY OFF, that he's almost just as bad as he was when we were first married. (forgetting things, non focus, passive aggressive, brain fog, etc.)

HIs job is also not going well, and he's frantic about looking for another. 10 years ago, I begged him not to take this particular job, and his anger and pride and whatever kept him from listening to whatever GOOD REASONS I had for him NOT taking this job. I did a very large study on this school, area, state, town and surrounding areas, to see if there was even a potential for growth for him in this job. ..................there wasn't ANY. I showed him all my information, and he only got angrier, and took the job anyway, just telling me "YOu are wrong". Well, recently he confessed to our daughter that "YOur mother was right about this job", but he still hasn't said that to me. (that's pride) I have NEVER even once, said "I told you so".............not in my actions, words, or attitude, but he treats me like he hates me for being "right". (which is also a passive aggressive thing I think) When he started this job, the program was in bad shape, but he started to improve it. But, the feeder schools INTO this college have gotten so bad, that there are less than a handful of students now that are going into his music program. Plus, the other professor is retiring at the end of this year, and my husband is SCARED TO DEATH to do this job without the "other guy". The other professor is an excellent musician, and runs a good choir program, but even THAT has shrunk and suffered greatly. What's so wrong with just saying, "Yep, you were right, I was wrong". ta...da....no big deal. I've done that to him and admitted things when I've been wrong. It does the body good sometimes to do that. :)

HIs passive aggressiveness has hurt my self esteem terribly, and beaten me down. It's going to take me a LONG TIME to get over all these years of feeling like I've been emotionally beaten up day after day. And, yet/still I feel guilty. This is no way to live. I"m sorry for the rant. This time is just so hard.

Denial Dede

Submitted by kellyj on Fri, 01/08/2016 - 15:28

If you go and read the post I just made on the reasons why people are in denial (as a defense)...that might help to give you some clues to your H's behavior and why he's done the things he did. Boiling this down for you.....if you don't believe that there is anything wrong with you and think you are fine.....then it HAS to be everyone else who is wrong and you are right.

This right and wrong, good or bad, black and white kind of thinking is also called "splitting". Something isn't jiving and the solution or answer must be with everyone else instead of you. This "binary" kind of thinking is what gets you into trouble and it is all based on a mis-belief about yourself. And that mis-belief is because everyone has been telling you the wrong thing or has come to wrong conclusions themselves about you and your behavior and have applied the wrong thing to explain it too you all of your life.

In that respect......you know that they are wrong but you cannot explain it. This is the "Ambivalence" that Melissa was mentioning....that is....a belief that you have and that you are holding onto that contains two completely incapatable ideas or beliefs about the same thing that are in congruent with one another or in conflict with one another. Internally.....if this never gets resolved or answered in a satisfactory way for yourself....you have one of two options...

Either you live with this eternal nagging and uncomfortable feeling that creates a lot of pain and suffering along with it at different times with the end result of low self esteem and low self worth and depression.........

or.......you try to explain it and rationalize that it must not be you and you are Okay in order to maintain your self esteem and blame it on something else. This allows you to function and not feel this feeling and feel that everything is just fine. What is fine is not having to live with this feeling......this thinking is completely "feeling" based with no basis on reality what so ever. If it feels bad....then something is wrong. If it feels good....then it must be Okay? So subconsciously.....anything that is not Okay is bad...and anything that feels bad must be the answered or have an immediate answer to explain it. It's this binary personal working model that is actually wrong and you are not fine and everything is not Okay from the reports and feed back you get from others in this way of thinking. That in itself......only creates more feelings of ambiance which you've already decided is wrong and this must go immediately....this feeling has no place with me which makes you anxious and impatient to get rid of it so the conclusion you come to each time you feel it again is......it's wrong so therefore.....it's everyone else who is wrong and you are the reason why I feel this way......which means without saying it......YOU are the one who is wrong not me. This makes you angry at the person who did this to you since.....it's your fault that (for a person in denial) they feel bad. How they feel and feeling bad is always caused by someone else or something outside of themselves and never their responsibility. It's total victim mentality!!

The defense is against this feeling and avoiding feeling this way and the cause in each case for feeling this way is YOU as being the source or caused of it. On a sub conscious level....that is what is happening with a person in denial who has decided that it must be everyone else who is causing this feeling in me.

For someone who hasn't done this.....they just feel bad all the time and suffer the pain from it continuously. To a lessor degree in respect to the strength of a persons denial and belief.....comes along with it....the belief that there is something wrong with you in varying degrees. The more you believe that something is wrong with you.....the less hold the denial has on you and the greater likelihood that you are willing to entertain the idea that it might not be everyone else and it the thing that is wrong is me.

If I have learned anything from being on this forum......what I have learned is where I fit into this schema and how this worked for me in contrast to how this works for others under the same but maybe not exact circumstances.

It was really easy for me to figure this one out since.....I know how I have felt about myself my entire life since I was very little....that is.....that something is wrong with me. Straight up. I pretty much took that to heart when I was little and never looked back....since, that was what was being shoved down my throat on a daily basis pretty much all the time and I believed it. And because I believed it....I set about the task to figure out exactly what that was and have been doing a version of this my entire life. I lived with this pain and sadness from it since I was very little and that has never really changed. But I also found a number of ways to counter act this feeling and make it better or worse by the things I did. Living with this feeling is what I learned to do and then be Okay anyway. That is the skill you learn from believing that instead of believing just the opposite and not feeling the pain as the other alternative. The defense again....is all about pain. Either you accept the pain or you don't....if you don't and choose to live without it.......you choose to be in denial of it and explain it away by blaming it on someone else or the person who you see as the cause of this pain. When you deny the pain and the feeling that cause it......you are operating like a boat without a rudder because this pain is there to serve a purpose and without it....your missing the boat....actually, the rudder to your boat:) lol

And when someone has been this way for so long and not learned to live with it as I have......then they will either blame it on everyone else and make themselves the victims of the other person (instead of what they are really victims of) and be angry continuously at that person for being the ones who resurrected those feelings each time they do it (to them).

That anger can come out all at once in a fit of rage......or little bits at a time in the form of being passive aggressive. Either way....it comes from the same source and a need to get rid of that feeling. The only part you see is a man who is angry and running away from something.

What he is running away from ( even if he doesn't realize it) is himself and then having to deal with these feelings that have been suppressed and buried in the form of denial and avoidance of pain.

There ain't two ways around it however......either you learn to live with it (and with yourself and like who you are along with it at the same time) or stay in ignorant bliss and somewhat "pain free" for eternity and never find a way to integrate the two and be happy and satisfied.

No one ever promised you a "rose garden" as they say......and that goes along with thinking that every day is supposed to be a good one and if it isn't something is wrong.

In reality......the good parts come to those who find ways to bring them to themselves (get it for yourself instead of waiting for someone else to give it to you) and once you discover that.....you have enough to give that what you have (or don't have yourself when you don't do this) to everyone else at the same time. That is what you must to do Dede....for your own sake and for the sake of everyone you love.

The reason there is bad and good and the feelings that tell you that is to understand what those feelings are trying to tell you. If you don't feel good for what ever reason.....then your feelings are telling you to do something. What that is.....is entirely up to you to figure out on your own.

Peace:)

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